Sex before marriage?

[Aless]

Having sex without being married does not mean having sex with any more people than a married person would.

Not always, mostly though, it's a reasonable assumption.

[lolDeath]

Not always, mostly though, it's a reasonable assumption.

It still does not make getting an ST any more likely. Promiscuity is a personal choice not tied into marriage at all.

Ask my mom, and my dad if you can figure out who he is. ;)

[Florete]

A relationship, in order for it to stay healthy and active, needs sex.

If that's true, I don't want to have a serious relationship.

I would generally disagree with sex before marriage. I've heard too many stories of people regretting it for any reason (usually an unwanted kid). Sure, plenty of marriages end in divorce anyway, but if you're married then at least you know you're prepared for whatever is coming.

Yeah, there's always condom usage and such. I guess it's more or less my own personal belief.

[lolDeath]

If that's true, I don't want to have a serious relationship.

I would generally disagree with sex before marriage. I've heard too many stories of people regretting it for any reason (usually an unwanted kid). Sure, plenty of marriages end in divorce anyway, but if you're married then at least you know you're prepared for whatever is coming.

Yeah, there's always condom usage and such. I guess it's more or less my own personal belief.

That is due to the person having sex before they are ready or with the wrong person, their own stupidity.

[Mufasa]

If that's true, I don't want to have a serious relationship.

I would generally disagree with sex before marriage. I've heard too many stories of people regretting it for any reason (usually an unwanted kid). Sure, plenty of marriages end in divorce anyway, but if you're married then at least you know you're prepared for whatever is coming.

Yeah, there's always condom usage and such. I guess it's more or less my own personal belief.

That is due to the person having sex before they are ready or with the wrong person, their own stupidity.

What Death said. You don't have to have sex all the time. However, if you've met someone you're comfortable enough to marry, you would probably be comfortable having sex with them. Any relationship should not revolve around sex. That always has bad results.

[Jyosua]

If that's true, I don't want to have a serious relationship.

I would generally disagree with sex before marriage. I've heard too many stories of people regretting it for any reason (usually an unwanted kid). Sure, plenty of marriages end in divorce anyway, but if you're married then at least you know you're prepared for whatever is coming.

Yeah, there's always condom usage and such. I guess it's more or less my own personal belief.

While I agree with you it's not NECESSARY in a relationship, it sometimes does hurt the relationship to lock away a certain aspect of the relationship, once you've reached the peak of the emotional aspect, if one person is willing to go further, and the other holds firm with saving sex for marriage, simply because they think they have to, without really coming up with any logic for it. It makes the other person feel as though they're not good enough, etc. Many thoughts of doubt will run through the mind of the person who's willing, as a consequence.

As for unwanted children, that's simple; as you said, there are various methods of birth control.

But as for sex being necessary? It's not, as long as both people in the relationship feel that it's not.

[Florete]

That is due to the person having sex before they are ready or with the wrong person, their own stupidity.

Well, a lot of people are stupid.

While I agree with you it's not NECESSARY in a relationship, it sometimes does hurt the relationship to lock away a certain aspect of the relationship, once you've reached the peak of the emotional aspect, if one person is willing to go further, and the other holds firm with saving sex for marriage, simply because they think they have to, without really coming up with any logic for it. It makes the other person feel as though they're not good enough, etc. Many thoughts of doubt will run through the mind of the person who's willing, as a consequence.

As for unwanted children, that's simple; as you said, there are various methods of birth control.

But as for sex being necessary? It's not, as long as both people in the relationship feel that it's not.

The way I see it, if one person is dying for sex and the other wants to hold off on it, the two probably aren't the greatest match anyway, especially if the one wanting sex can't understand why the other would want to hold off. It just doesn't sound right that a person should have to give the other sex in order to keep the relationship going.

[Der Kommissar]

Have sex if you want - just be willing to do things right, or take responsibility for fucking up.

That's how most toys for adults work.

[lolDeath]

@Foxy, not to sound old here, but some people do have needs.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Death

[Jyosua]

Well, a lot of people are stupid.

The way I see it, if one person is dying for sex and the other wants to hold off on it, the two probably aren't the greatest match anyway, especially if the one wanting sex can't understand why the other would want to hold off. It just doesn't sound right that a person should have to give the other sex in order to keep the relationship going.

I didn't say they were dying for sex, however, if you can't come up with a better reason for wanting to wait other than "My religion says it's wrong" or "Because I think it's wrong", then the person who needs to be doing some thinking is the one holding back. It's one thing for the one person to be willing, and the other to have a good reason, such as not feeling ready for it, or worrying that it would ruin the relationship, for holding back. Then if the person who's willing has doubts, I'd call them a sex-hungry asshole. But it the person holding back fails to come up with a reason like that, then, no.

[Ragnell]

First of all, I'll say I disagree with it on religious grounds. My church does not believe in any sex without the purpose it was intended for: to make babies.

Besides that, however, I still think it is wrong. If you have sex before marriage, then you're proving that your lust is greater than your love for the person. You are both risking STDs and a child when you're not prepared. It's not a large chance, but it exists. And it may lead you farther into a relationship that may not be for the best. Having sex often pushes aside personality traits and instead focuses on physical attraction, which does not hold relationships together. It can help start them, but does not keep them. A relationship does not need sex to work, but it needs two people who can spend their wholes lives together.

Plus the usual stuff you'll hear in a sex ed. class. Like not having sex keeps you pure for when you do eventually marry (which may not be your current girl/boy-friend *gasp*). No one minds having sex, but everyone seems to want to marry a virgin.

[lolDeath]

If you have sex before marriage, then you're proving that your lust is greater than your love for the person.

Not even close. People have sex out of love, lust, boredom, spite, and any combination. It does not prove that lust outweight love because love does not cause you to not want to have sex, and restricting that action is just something you are preached to about.

You are both risking STDs and a child when you're not prepared.

Which is why people should be responsible about it.

And it may lead you farther into a relationship that may not be for the best.

People can exit relationships at any time, all they have to do is speak the words.

Having sex often pushes aside personality traits and instead focuses on physical attraction, which does not hold relationships together.

People have sex because they like, or love one another also. You can not just make all of this bullshit up, god damn.

It can help start them, but does not keep them.

There are people out there who like sexual relationships.

A relationship does not need sex to work, but it needs two people who can spend their wholes lives together.

Wouldn't a relationship working out be defined as one or both participants dying while in it? Kind of one of those no shit things, but they do need sex, it's just the basic mechanics of a relationship. When you are in an adult relationship you'll probably get it.

Plus the usual stuff you'll hear in a sex ed. class. Like not having sex keeps you pure for when you do eventually marry (which may not be your current girl/boy-friend *gasp*).

Which does not matter to the majority of people.

No one minds having sex, but everyone seems to want to marry a virgin.

Everyone doesn't have completely unrealistic expectations.

Good job failing to provide a single reason that is not complete bullshit.

Edit; I get it, you're 15, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about ergo you can not properly discuss it. Hello, parrot.

Edited March 4, 2009 by Death

[Mufasa]

First of all, I'll say I disagree with it on religious grounds. My church does not believe in any sex without the purpose it was intended for: to make babies.

Besides that, however, I still think it is wrong. If you have sex before marriage, then you're proving that your lust is greater than your love for the person. You are both risking STDs and a child when you're not prepared. It's not a large chance, but it exists. And it may lead you farther into a relationship that may not be for the best. Having sex often pushes aside personality traits and instead focuses on physical attraction, which does not hold relationships together. It can help start them, but does not keep them. A relationship does not need sex to work, but it needs two people who can spend their wholes lives together.

Plus the usual stuff you'll hear in a sex ed. class. Like not having sex keeps you pure for when you do eventually marry (which may not be your current girl/boy-friend *gasp*). No one minds having sex, but everyone seems to want to marry a virgin.

See, this is where I disagree. I beleive that if you wait until after marriage, you're degrading the relationship. Mind you, I'm not saying people should just jump into bed with eachother, but marriage is a spiritual bonding between two people, and that should be the highest point reached in a relationship. Sex, I feel, would degrade the relationship.

And though it's important to be attracted to someone for their personality, it's not like their physical traits don't matter at all. You can still be physically attracted to someone.

[Jyosua]

See, this is where I disagree. I beleive that if you wait until after marriage, you're degrading the relationship. Mind you, I'm not saying people should just jump into bed with eachother, but marriage is a spiritual bonding between two people, and that should be the highest point reached in a relationship. Sex, I feel, would degrade the relationship.

And though it's important to be attracted to someone for their personality, it's not like their physical traits don't matter at all. You can still be physically attracted to someone.

Quote for truth.

No really, this is how I feel. Marriage is the binding knot in my book, meaning the relationship has reached the high point on all levels, and as such we are absolutely sure we want to be with each other for the rest of our lives. Sex is just a step to reach that, and in my opinion, is one of the last steps before marriage. It goes Feelings->More Feelings->Sex->Marriage

Edit: I would like to note, that this does not mean I would not modify my beliefs to conform with a girl I truly care for. I'd be stupid if I refused to do that.

[CGV]

Sure, if they want to why not. I mean as long as they're responsible, of course

[Ragnell]

Not even close. People have sex out of love, lust, boredom, spite, and any combination. It does not prove that lust outweight love because love does not cause you to not want to have sex, and restricting that action is just something you are preached to about.

The statement you responded to with this went with the next one, they were not separate topics. Sex has risks regardless of how safe you are. Not big risks, but if you truly put what's best for the other person first, you would probably want to avoid it. That's how I define love, wanting what's best for another person regardless of your feelings.

Which is why people should be responsible about it.

What I said above, it can never be totally safe. And while 1/10,000 doesn't sound like much (I don't know the actual statistic, this is just a guesstimate), it means 1 person's condom broke in 10,000, and they may be a new father/mother.

People can exit relationships at any time, all they have to do is speak the words.

Very true, but having sex may make you want to stay in a bad relationship longer for only physical reasons.

People have sex because they like, or love one another also. You can not just make all of this bullshit up, god damn.

There are people out there who like sexual relationships.

No specific answer here, just look at my answers above.

Wouldn't a relationship working out be defined as one or both participants dying while in it? Kind of one of those no shit things, but they do need sex, it's just the basic mechanics of a relationship. When you are in an adult relationship you'll probably get it.

Yes, that definition would be correct, although the couple liking each other would be a wonderful bonus. And the latter definitely affects the former. And a relationship does not need sex. Look at my parents for instance, they never had sex before marriage and they are fine now, with no horrible relationship defects. I can give you dozens of other examples of perfectly good relationships with no sex before marriage or frequent sex after.

Which does not matter to the majority of people.

Everyone doesn't have completely unrealistic expectations.

Very true. But still, wouldn't you like to marry a virgin? If so, why don't you help someone else get their wish by staying a virgin?

Good job failing to provide a single reason that is not complete bullshit.

Edit; I get it, you're 15, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about ergo you can not properly discuss it. Hello, parrot.

At what age or under which circumstances am I allowed to enter this conversation, then? You have not right to rule me out of this discussion on age alone. I'm of perfect reproductive age, so I can have sex as easily as anyone else. And since I'm not married yet, this is a decision more relevant to me than many others here.

I do not just spit out the same lines as my parents (assuming that's what parrot means, if not, my apologies), my beliefs differ from theirs quite a bit. Now I've explained my views.

[lolDeath]

The statement you responded to with this went with the next one, they were not separate topics. Sex has risks regardless of how safe you are. Not big risks, but if you truly put what's best for the other person first, you would probably want to avoid it. That's how I define love, wanting what's best for another person regardless of your feelings.

Then I guess you should never drive them anywhere because of the chance you can get into a car accident.

What I said above, it can never be totally safe. And while 1/10,000 doesn't sound like much (I don't know the actual statistic, this is just a guesstimate), it means 1 person's condom broke in 10,000, and they may be a new father/mother.

Nothing in this life is perfectly safe. Also, they have the option of abortion.

Very true, but having sex may make you want to stay in a bad relationship longer for only physical reasons.

If they want to stay in it that is their own choice and nothing you can deem as negative.

Yes, that definition would be correct, although the couple liking each other would be a wonderful bonus. And the latter definitely affects the former. And a relationship does not need sex. Look at my parents for instance, they never had sex before marriage and they are fine now, with no horrible relationship defects. I can give you dozens of other examples of perfectly good relationships with no sex before marriage or frequent sex after.

So everyone is supposed to be like your parents, who you believe to have a perfectly happy marriage? Get your head out of the clouds.

Very true. But still, wouldn't you like to marry a virgin? If so, why don't you help someone else get their wish by staying a virgin?

No, I have realistic expectations.

At what age or under which circumstances am I allowed to enter this conversation, then? You have not right to rule me out of this discussion on age alone. I'm of perfect reproductive age, so I can have sex as easily as anyone else. And since I'm not married yet, this is a decision more relevant to me than many others here.

Kids never believe this, but you don't really have the life experience by 15 to have anything I consider remotely close to a valid opinion on sex. You're a kid, you need to worry about.. grades, or whatever the fuck you care about, not things you don't know anything about aside from what you hear at church, from your parents, and in SeX Ed.

I do not just spit out the same lines as my parents (assuming that's what parrot means, if not, my apologies), my beliefs differ from theirs quite a bit. Now I've explained my views.

Anyone who will state things like that about something they do not have thorough experience with is a parrot by default.

[YokaiKnight]

The statement you responded to with this went with the next one, they were not separate topics. Sex has risks regardless of how safe you are. Not big risks, but if you truly put what's best for the other person first, you would probably want to avoid it. That's how I define love, wanting what's best for another person regardless of your feelings.

And why can't sex be what's best for another person, if they want it?

What I said above, it can never be totally safe.

Neither can anything else you do in life, ever.

Very true, but having sex may make you want to stay in a bad relationship longer for only physical reasons.

This, in my opinion, is the only really strong point in your favor. But it's not a good enough reason for me to be abstinent anyway.

I can give you dozens of other examples of perfectly good relationships with no sex before marriage or frequent sex after.

And someone could give dozens of examples of perfectly good relationships with plenty of sex before marriage.

Very true. But still, wouldn't you like to marry a virgin? If so, why don't you help someone else get their wish by staying a virgin?

This is kind of a silly assumption. Many people would, but others would like to marry someone with experience so that the sex is actually better.

[Ragnell]

The statement you responded to with this went with the next one, they were not separate topics. Sex has risks regardless of how safe you are. Not big risks, but if you truly put what's best for the other person first, you would probably want to avoid it. That's how I define love, wanting what's best for another person regardless of your feelings.

Then I guess you should never drive them anywhere because of the chance you can get into a car accident.

I mean it is an unnecessary risk that can be totally avoided without any kind of harm. While you may need to drive a car once and a while. ;) Sex is pretty much for pleasure only.

What I said above, it can never be totally safe. And while 1/10,000 doesn't sound like much (I don't know the actual statistic, this is just a guesstimate), it means 1 person's condom broke in 10,000, and they may be a new father/mother.

Nothing in this life is perfectly safe. Also, they have the option of abortion.

But should you expect your partner to have to make the choice to have an abortion. Regardless of your side on the abortion topic (whew, gotta steer clear of that), going through with an abortion can cause serious trauma for the mother.

Very true, but having sex may make you want to stay in a bad relationship longer for only physical reasons.

If they want to stay in it that is their own choice and nothing you can deem as negative.

That's the thing, it's their fault, but do you want them to suffer for years from a bad choice you influenced? And it's going to affect you as well if they aren't happy with other aspects of the relationship.

Yes, that definition would be correct, although the couple liking each other would be a wonderful bonus. And the latter definitely affects the former. And a relationship does not need sex. Look at my parents for instance, they never had sex before marriage and they are fine now, with no horrible relationship defects. I can give you dozens of other examples of perfectly good relationships with no sex before marriage or frequent sex after.

So everyone is supposed to be like your parents, who you believe to have a perfectly happy marriage? Get your head out of the clouds.

Did you read the part where I said I can give you other examples, that just happens to be the quickest. Their marriage is not perfect, none are. I never said it was. What I did say was that they have a normally functioning marriage where no one person is particularly unhappy, as I'm sure many other people do. I mean general happiness, everyone is sad/mad at points. But they are overall ok.

Very true. But still, wouldn't you like to marry a virgin? If so, why don't you help someone else get their wish by staying a virgin?

No, I have realistic expectations.

I'm not asking your expectations. I'm saying wouldn't you LIKE to marry a virgin. The experience thing is true, but many people would prefer marrying a virgin. So why not stay a virgin for your future spouse. A flimsy argument, but it still exists.

At what age or under which circumstances am I allowed to enter this conversation, then? You have not right to rule me out of this discussion on age alone. I'm of perfect reproductive age, so I can have sex as easily as anyone else. And since I'm not married yet, this is a decision more relevant to me than many others here.

Kids never believe this, but you don't really have the life experience by 15 to have anything I consider remotely close to a valid opinion on sex. You're a kid, you need to worry about.. grades, or whatever the fuck you care about, not things you don't know anything about aside from what you hear at church, from your parents, and in SeX Ed.

I largely agree with you about my (and other's) lack of life experience, but I disagree on this specific topic. Like I said before, most every kid my age either has either had sex, plans to, or has made the decision not to, which is the exact decision being discussed here. So I see no reason why my ideas are invalid. And no one can know and have experienced absolutely everything to do with a topic, so it seems unfair to draw any sort of line where you can't respond. I have less experience than you, but you have less experience than an older couple as well. You should still be able to express your beliefs, so I should as well.

I do not just spit out the same lines as my parents (assuming that's what parrot means, if not, my apologies), my beliefs differ from theirs quite a bit. Now I've explained my views.

Anyone who will state things like that about something they do not have thorough experience with is a parrot by default.

Everyone has to get some ideas from some where so, technically speaking, everyone is a parrot. My arguments are not all from other people, they are mostly my own (except the one where I said "Your typical Sex Ed. Argument", but I don't think that's the specific one being discussed). As long as I have made a decision either not to have sex or to have sex, I have enough experience here to at least discuss with.

Edited March 4, 2009 by Ragnell

[Florete]

See, this is where I disagree. I beleive that if you wait until after marriage, you're degrading the relationship. Mind you, I'm not saying people should just jump into bed with eachother, but marriage is a spiritual bonding between two people, and that should be the highest point reached in a relationship. Sex, I feel, would degrade the relationship.

And though it's important to be attracted to someone for their personality, it's not like their physical traits don't matter at all. You can still be physically attracted to someone.

This is what I don't agree with. Like Jyo said, marriage is the "binding knot" and so it's my personal belief that you should wait for then to do something so serious as sex. It's like in a game where you have to work up to different ranks to perform more abilities. Does that make sense? I don't see how waiting until marriage for sex could possibly be "degrading" to the relationship. If anything, it would be degrading before marriage for previously stated reasons. And if all it takes is a simple "Hey, I love you" to get someone to take their pants off for you (not saying all gf/bf relationships are like this) you're either really good at finding a soulmate or not with the right person. Or maybe I've got high standards for relationships, who knows.

If you're engaged to someone, I'd say that's good enough to have sex though, since you've already made the longterm commitment to each other.

[lolDeath]

I mean it is an unnecessary risk that can be totally avoided without any kind of harm. While you may need to drive a car once and a while. wink.gif Sex is pretty much for pleasure only.

Driving a car is for convenience and not required either.

But should you expect your partner to have to make the choice to have an abortion. Regardless of your side on the abortion topic (whew, gotta steer clear of that), going through with an abortion can cause serious trauma for the mother.

I just said the option exists.

That's the thing, it's their fault, but do you want them to suffer for years from a bad choice you influenced? And it's going to affect you as well if they aren't happy with other aspects of the relationship.

It's a bad choice in YOUR opinion, nobody gives a fuck what you think of their choices and desires, so that is a pretty empty argument.

Did you read the part where I said I can give you other examples, that just happens to be the quickest. Their marriage is not perfect, none are. I never said it was. What I did say was that they have a normally functioning marriage where no one person is particularly unhappy, as I'm sure many other people do. I mean general happiness, everyone is sad/mad at points. But they are overall ok.

And you do not understand that there are just as many relationships that work out fine where the couple has sex before being married? You can have sex before you are married and be just as happy as anyone else.

I'm not asking your expectations. I'm saying wouldn't you LIKE to marry a virgin. The experience thing is true, but many people would prefer marrying a virgin. So why not stay a virgin for your future spouse. A flimsy argument, but it still exists.

No, I don't care, because like I said, I do not have unrealistic expectations. I think that wanting to marry a virgin really stems from a fear that you just can't measure up to those who came before you, do people would like to have as few areas for comparison as possible.

I largely agree with you about my (and other's) lack of life experience, but I disagree on this specific topic. Like I said before, most every kid my age either has either had sex, plans to, or has made the decision not to, which is the exact decision being discussed here. So I see no reason why my ideas are invalid. And no one can know and have experienced absolutely everything to do with a topic, so it seems unfair to draw any sort of line where you can't respond. I have less experience than you, but you have less experience than an older couple as well. You should still be able to express your beliefs, so I should as well.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to express them, I am saying that they are worthless because you are a child. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about no matter how many kids your age do it.

Everyone has to get some ideas from some where so, technically speaking, everyone is a parrot. My arguments are not all from other people, they are mostly my own (except the one where I said "Your typical Sex Ed. Argument", but I don't think that's the specific one being discussed). As long as I have made a decision either not to have sex or to have sex, I have enough experience here to at least discuss with.

You are missing my point. You have no (0) experience with this, all you have it what other people say that seems right. As you grow the chances your opinions will change are insanely high, because then you will actually have experience with more adult relationships and really just plain human interaction.

Foxy, that is overlooking the fact that a lot of relationships do fail because of poor sexual compatibility. I know relationships are often romanticized when you hear about them from certain people and places, but this is just the way things work once you start dealing with.. you know, adulthood, and no amount of cute stories can change that.

Edited March 4, 2009 by Death

[Dr. Tarrasque]

This is what I don't agree with. Like Jyo said, marriage is the "binding knot" and so it's my personal belief that you should wait for then to do something so serious as sex. It's like in a game where you have to work up to different ranks to perform more abilities. Does that make sense? I don't see how waiting until marriage for sex could possibly be "degrading" to the relationship. If anything, it would be degrading before marriage for previously stated reasons. And if all it takes is a simple "Hey, I love you" to get someone to take their pants off for you (not saying all gf/bf relationships are like this) you're either really good at finding a soulmate or not with the right person. Or maybe I've got high standards for relationships, who knows.

If you're engaged to someone, I'd say that's good enough to have sex though, since you've already made the longterm commitment to each other.

@Bold: You do.

As previously stated:

People have sex out of love, lust, boredom, spite, and any combination. It does not prove that lust outweight love because love does not cause you to not want to have sex, and restricting that action is just something you are preached to about.

There's nothing wrong with sex before marriage but if you're the type that wants to wait till after marriage out of personal belief, that's fine. "Sex before marriage is bad" = opinion and religious belief, nothing more.

Also, here's one example why sex before marriage would be a good thing (I think it was already used but whatever):

It decreases the possibility of your partner cheating on you. Think about it, a couple that has sex before marriage and ends up married likely means that they're both content with the sex and therefore, would result in a less chance of either partner cheating on the other because they're not being satisfied.

Sex after marriage can screw you over though, you may end up with a person that has complied with your belief about staying a virgin until after marriage but if the sex isn't enough to satisfy, expect more trouble in your relationship than what you already have.

[YokaiKnight]

This is what I don't agree with. Like Jyo said, marriage is the "binding knot" and so it's my personal belief that you should wait for then to do something so serious as sex.

That's the thing; sex isn't that serious.

If you're engaged to someone, I'd say that's good enough to have sex though, since you've already made the longterm commitment to each other.

There's no reason that recreational sex should require a long term commitment. You don't need a long term commitment to go out and play laser tag all night.

[Florete]

Foxy, that is overlooking the fact that a lot of relationships do fail because of poor sexual compatibility. I know relationships are often romanticized when you hear about them from certain people and places, but this is just the way things work once you start dealing with.. you know, adulthood, and no amount of cute stories can change that.

"Cute stories" what the hell? No seriously, what do you mean? This is my own personal belief, not something I've been brainwashed with.

"Sex before marriage is bad" = opinion and religious belief, nothing more.

I totally agree. I believe I said something to that effect in my first post.

[Mufasa]

This is what I don't agree with. Like Jyo said, marriage is the "binding knot" and so it's my personal belief that you should wait for then to do something so serious as sex. It's like in a game where you have to work up to different ranks to perform more abilities. Does that make sense? I don't see how waiting until marriage for sex could possibly be "degrading" to the relationship. If anything, it would be degrading before marriage for previously stated reasons. And if all it takes is a simple "Hey, I love you" to get someone to take their pants off for you (not saying all gf/bf relationships are like this) you're either really good at finding a soulmate or not with the right person. Or maybe I've got high standards for relationships, who knows.

If you're engaged to someone, I'd say that's good enough to have sex though, since you've already made the longterm commitment to each other.

Well I'm not saying that people should jump into bed with others right away in their relationship. And if one partner isn't ready for it, then they probably shouldn't go for it. However, if you aren't comfortable having sex with someone, then why would you get married to them?

I think we might have different standards for marriage though. I don't mean to put words into your mouth, but I think maybe some people see marriage as just a law-binding thing between two people. I see it as a spiritual binding between the people. And Sex is, as previously stated, the frenzied nature of love. By waiting until after marriage to have sex, you make sex the highest achievement of the relationship, and thus the relationship is degraded from the spiritual binding, into a more frenzied love.

At least that's how I see it. I don't mean to degrade your opinion or force you to chage it.