Getting a Tier List on this bad boy

[CATS]

Does anyone think Knoll could move up? At least above Marisa, although maybe above Rennac. She has big issues when she joins, and can't do much about them. In order for him to escape his massive suck, he just has to promote. He then has staves and phantoms. And even his combat isn't that bad. 19 ATK and 100 hit with Flux means if he ever needs to he can do some chip damage. Or he can just summon. 15 ATK and 86 hit with 6 range is pretty good. And he has no fear of counter attack while doing that. He also has a monopoly on Dark Tomes since the only other one who can use them is Ewan. This means he has Nosferatu to help his durability (22 ATK and 90 hit at 10/1 means he can restore ~30% of his HP even against enemies wiht higher res) and is guaranteed to get Gleipner (SIXTY effective ATK and 114 hit at 10/5), and Luna for whatever it's worth. He also has staves, which means at least heal/mend, and maybe physic later on. And if his summon survives through enemy phase? He can now attack twice or attack and heal without Tethys. And if she does dance for him? That's another attack/heal. I don't see how this is worse than Marisa sucking forever.

lol, this is exactly what I've been saying for the last two pages. Rennac being overrated, and Knoll/Dozla being underrated. I agree, this >>> Marisa and Rennac (who is not much better than Marisa--all he really has is getting items in the desert, which might be useful, as compared to Knoll's abilities which are very clearly useful).

Sadly Knoll joins with only a C in Dark so S-Ranking is really out of the question. As is using decent staves, as he gets only E upon promotion. Pretty sad considering he could do decent damage with Gleipnir (even without effective bonus, it still has 23 freaking Mt) and Physic is always cool, or Torch for Ch 19. Still, he is definitely doing better than people who just suck in general and offer nothing useful.

I also would argue Knoll as superior to L'Arachel, who offers staff use, but no summons or combat.

Edited September 1, 2009 by CATS

[-Cynthia-]

L'Arachel offers combat post promotion obviously and it's generally superior to Knoll's since she doubles stuff.

[CATS]

L'Arachel needing 7 levels before she can promote, on the other hand, is much inferior to Knoll joining at L10. She's recruited near the end of her join chapter, so even if you throw her down in 14 to get Rennac, she's still not going to be even close to promotion by the time you get to Ch 19.

Edited September 1, 2009 by CATS

[Florete]

L'Arachel also has better durability in the form of "I don't see listed crit from every single enemy." She also might get Def via supports.

[Mekkah]

The difference between the two is pretty negligible defensively if you restrict them to healing (and summoning) only, since they're detrimental if you make them do about anything else. imo this really just comes down to L'Arachel's better supports (I suppose her support with Dozla is decent, though that's only temporary if it's going for 100% efficiency) and general availability lead + horse to beat Knoll's low maintenance summons. Personally I'm tempted to give Knoll the edge.

[Florete]

How are summons even a good thing at all? What are they useful for? Are we ever going to find a time where a unit is badly in danger that healing or Rescuing or walling won't suffice? At least L'Arachel can grow decent durability and also be good at combat. How in hell does Knoll stand a chance?

[Colonel M]

Knoll's durability is due to his summons. Since they have the highest priority AI-wise, it allows a unit to at least be saved from an enemy. Phantoms can be interesting tools in battle, but the horse is the only thing...

[CATS]

How are summons even a good thing at all? What are they useful for? Are we ever going to find a time where a unit is badly in danger that healing or Rescuing or walling won't suffice? At least L'Arachel can grow decent durability and also be good at combat. How in hell does Knoll stand a chance?

L'Arachel requires levels and, more importantly, multiple chapters of use before she can have any combat ability at all. Knoll has it without needing anything except the Ch 15 Master Seal or, if that's not available, the Ch 17 Guiding Ring. You can put him down when you have room in Ch 19 and 20, and he can help in Ch 15 (Eir at least; I forget whether or not he's forced for 15 Eph).

Supports aren't doing anything as neither one has enough time to build them. Likewise L'Arachel's horse is quite worthless. Remember that Troubadours have 6 move in this game. Troub L'Arachel has the same move as Summoner Knoll. Knoll actually has more mobility because his terrain penalties are smaller.

You can argue a case for L'Arachel only if you pretend that they are used for the whole game, in each and every chap after they join. While this might be an interesting debaet, and I wouldn't mind discussing it, it is of no relevance to the actual tier positions, since Knoll clearly wins when used efficiently.

Edited September 2, 2009 by CATS

[Rewjeo]

Too bad it doesn't seem that Knoll's getting S Dark for endgame. That would be 30 attacks with an extremely powerful and accurate tome.

He also can attack anyone within 12 (and later 13) squares from him with the phantoms, while she can only reach 9 unless she uses seige tomes. And L'arachel needs to gain MORE THAN TWO LEVELS PER CHAPTER to promote at the same time as Knoll. He has offense, durability, and actually has better attack range as well as the ability to do 2 things in one turn without Tethys, and she has? Physic and a horse and MAYBE supports?

Oh, and how do you determine what weapons the summons have? I know they start with Iron axe and eventually get Tomohawks, but that's all.

[Florete]

How does Knoll win when used efficiently? Or, more importantly, how valuable are Phantoms anyway?

10/1 Summoner Knoll only barely beats base L'Arachel in durability, crits aside (Because lol0 Luck). She has 2 Def, he has 6 HP. And she levels faster. She needs 10 regular heals to level up, Knoll would need 20. Or, if he only summons, he only needs 10 as well, but L'Arachel ends up with 10 more experience afterwards.

Once she promotes, she's the one with +1 move. And I don't see how supports are irrelevant because L'Arachel can support Eirika/Ephraim fairly quickly, whichever one isn't our main lord, and gain more durability as well help them (Both are full atk and crit). Not to mention she heals for longer than Knoll.

The only way I can see Knoll winning is if Phantoms are somehow some h4x ability. I don't see what's so useful in something that only distracts one enemy at a point in the game where our units are pretty durable anyway.

Also, L'Arachel needs to promote to fight, but Knoll needs to promote to Heal and Summon. Unpromoted L'Arachel >>>>>>>> unpromoted Knoll.

[Colonel M]

Promoting Knoll isn't even that big of an issue. It's either taking the Master Seal in his joining chapter or using one of the Guiding Rings that we bought in C15.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Colonel M

[CATS]

Oh, and how do you determine what weapons the summons have? I know they start with Iron axe and eventually get Tomohawks, but that's all.

No idea how it's determined. I just know higher level = they get better axes. I know they can sometimes get Killer Axes which is hilarious, but that's only at high levels, and Knoll is gonna be liek, 10/3 at best.

How does Knoll win when used efficiently? Or, more importantly, how valuable are Phantoms anyway?

Consider this. L'Arachel heals someone, but if there were a phantom standing next to that person, the enemy would've used its turn to attack the phantom instead, and that PC would not have needed healing in the first place.

10/1 Summoner Knoll only barely beats base L'Arachel in durability, crits aside (Because lol0 Luck). She has 2 Def, he has 6 HP. And she levels faster. She needs 10 regular heals to level up, Knoll would need 20. Or, if he only summons, he only needs 10 as well, but L'Arachel ends up with 10 more experience afterwards.

Better durability is meaningless as they both have complete bullshit durability. Base L'Arachel gets one-rounded by every single promoted enemy in Ch 19, no exceptions. If anything Knoll has the better durability as he atleast doesn't get one-rounded by the Mage Knights with his WTA and considerably higher Res.

Once she promotes, she's the one with +1 move.

Okay, so you started off your post asking how Knoll wins when both are used efficiently, which made me think that you were discussing efficient play. But now you're talking about L'Arachel promoting?

And I don't see how supports are irrelevant because L'Arachel can support Eirika/Ephraim fairly quickly, whichever one isn't our main lord, and gain more durability as well help them (Both are full atk and crit).

See above. Her Ephraim support is 25 turns to C. It's not happening unless you field her and Ephraim both in every chap from Ch 15 on.

Not to mention she heals for longer than Knoll.

See above.

The only way I can see Knoll winning is if Phantoms are somehow some h4x ability. I don't see what's so useful in something that only distracts one enemy at a point in the game where our units are pretty durable anyway.

If "our units are pretty durable anyway" is your excuse, then L'Arachel's healing is also worthless, while Knoll still atleast has some shitty offense to offer.

Also, L'Arachel needs to promote to fight, but Knoll needs to promote to Heal and Summon. Unpromoted L'Arachel >>>>>>>> unpromoted Knoll.

Again, I think you need to make up your mind as to whether you're discussing efficient play or inefficient play.

Edited September 2, 2009 by CATS

[Florete]

Wait, wtf? Since when do we assume the units we're debating aren't even being used? What kind of bastardized logic is that?

[CATS]

Knoll has it without needing anything except the Ch 15 Master Seal or, if that's not available, the Ch 17 Guiding Ring. You can put him down when you have room in Ch 19 and 20, and he can help in Ch 15 (Eir at least; I forget whether or not he's forced for 15 Eph).

There's a difference between using a unit in every single chap that they're available, using them efficiently (i.e. in the way in which they are best able to contribute to an efficient run--this means not fielding them when doing so would be a negative), or not using them at all.

Considering that the tier list obviously is based on efficiency, the middle option obviously is what matters for determining tier positions.

If two units are always a negative to field, no matter what (Ewan and Amelia being the main examples, maybe Marisa), then I'd say we can go to the first option for discussion, and see who does better when you just throw negative utility to the winds and play them for every chap anyways. Or they could just be in the same spot with a slash between them, for both being essentially utterly worthless. I don't really care either way, and it's not the case here as one unit is clearly better than the other when assuming efficient play, so w/e.

[Florete]

What? That's never been the way we've done tier lists, at least not at this forum (Trust me, I'd know). We have to assume use or characters like Ewan and Amelia wouldn't even see a slot on the tier list since you'd never field them.

And since when is fielding L'Arachel a negative at all? Healing is good, especially since she joins before the majority of your team even promotes (I usually promote at ~Ch 15).

B2BD said it first, but holy shit CATS, you really like to overdo the negative utility thing.

[Dat Nick]

It doesn't matter if we're using Est. If we're discussing a unit, they're being used. Wait, using L'Arachel isn't playing efficently? two seconds plz

On Eirika route:

-Seth-

Seth

-Top-

Franz

Vanessa

Colm

Moulder

-High-

Eirika

Gerik

Tethys

Kyle

Natasha

And on Ephraim route:

-Seth-

Seth

-Top-

Franz

Duessel

Ephraim

Vanessa

Colm

Moulder

-High-

Cormag

Gerik

Tethys

These are the only units EVER considered to be in play because any other team is inefficent. In fact, let's just cut BOTH tier lists off at the points I posted. Clearly since only the best characters are EVER in play by CATS's logic, anybody below there is never played and thus their positions don't matter.

Off topic: I'm getting tired of this kid's shit. First he tries to inflate the issue of L'Arachel being needed to recruit Rennac for free. Then in the FE7 tier he tries this Angelic Robe stat split nonsense. NOW he's not even being fair to the L'Arachel side in L'Arachel vs Knoll by saying that L'Arachel is never being played or some shit. It's just one thing after another. All in favor of slamming him on Ignore, say aye.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Joker

[Florete]

Aye.

In fact, let's just cut BOTH tier lists off at the points I posted.

I actually suggested that a while back.

[Dat Nick]

Aye.

In fact, let's just cut BOTH tier lists off at the points I posted.

I actually suggested that a while back.

...PLEASE tell me you're just playing along. The whole point of my post was to point out that "oh we don't use this unit because it's inefficent, no matter if they're actually on the team or not" is a ridiculous notion. You obviously believe this too. And now you actually SUPPORT CATS's claim? What?

Or you just misread my post entirely and thought I was discussing a merge of the list...

[Florete]

I'm playing along....I suggested that a while back for the same reason you just did. I do NOT support CATS.

[Dat Nick]

Oh ok, from the way you said that it was kind of hard to tell.

[_____]

I agreed in the FE7 tier list, where the entire argument against Karla was "Oh, she won't be recruited", but noooooooooo, no one agreed with me there. ;-;

[grandjackal]

CATS does indeed seem to have a few blown wires in that head of his (so says Robo Ky, the perfect creation). However, I do agree with Knoll being better, but not for his reasons.

A. Promiting him is not a problem. He literally goes north one turn and promotes. Bam. I got staffs and summons.

How useful are summons? Well don't give me this bullshit about not needing cover and rescuing that bad, because then you are purposefully using them wrong. They can defend greatly, as they are highest priority. However, why not let them chip at something first? Keeps my units safer, I'm using basically generic units that randomly come with awesome axes, and I can basically spam all these guys which means Knoll has the offense of possibly doing 3 things basically in one turn. Oh, and he can blast things with magic, staffs, yadda yadda yadda. Summons are basically the safest terms of offense, and there is no limit to how much I can spam them. In a way, they even distract enemies twice from attacking Knoll. He can protect himself. For even more lulz, with all the lances around (especially in this chapter), they can actually dodge. Lolololol.

Luck is a problem!

Hoplon Guard's gotten on the very chapter he joins, I don't see anyone else exactly begging for it.Hell, he's practically the only cantidate for it.

So in the end, Only advantage I can see for L'araSerra is a support with Dozla and a horsie. Do write letters, because I won't be answering calls to see if I care any time soon.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Dat Nick]

It's true that L'Arachel gets critted way less than Knoll, but it also needs to be considered that this doesn't really matter in the scenario of L'Arachel vs Knoll because L'Arachel's durability sucks dick too. Honestly? I'd say a heavy magic counter with a risk of getting critkilled>>>Doing absolutley nothing when attacked and dying in the same number of hits with barely any more avo.

[Florete]

It's true that L'Arachel gets critted way less than Knoll, but it also needs to be considered that this doesn't really matter in the scenario of L'Arachel vs Knoll because L'Arachel's durability sucks dick too. Honestly? I'd say a heavy magic counter with a risk of getting critkilled>>>Doing absolutley nothing when attacked and dying in the same number of hits with barely any more avo.

Uh, I wouldn't. At least with L'Arachel, I can know there's no chance of her being insta-blicked by almost anything that attacks her. And until she promotes (at which point her durability is a lot better), she never has to enter a fight. Knoll also runs into Hit problems, so even his offense isn't that reliable. And he never doubles.

[grandjackal]

It's true that L'Arachel gets critted way less than Knoll, but it also needs to be considered that this doesn't really matter in the scenario of L'Arachel vs Knoll because L'Arachel's durability sucks dick too. Honestly? I'd say a heavy magic counter with a risk of getting critkilled>>>Doing absolutley nothing when attacked and dying in the same number of hits with barely any more avo.

Uh, I wouldn't. At least with L'Arachel, I can know there's no chance of her being insta-blicked by almost anything that attacks her. And until she promotes (at which point her durability is a lot better), she never has to enter a fight. Knoll also runs into Hit problems, so even his offense isn't that reliable. And he never doubles.

She doesn't do dick that he can't until 7 levels later. He can do in one turn what one would regularly need 3 to do. He is 2 average fighters, 1 hard hitting mage with staffs all in one.

Again, Hoplon Guard, no one else gives a shit for it.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Robo Ky