Getting a Tier List on this bad boy

[Mekkah]

Again, I'll move him up if I know where he'll go. I was already convinced he should go up.

[Scarlet]

Again, I'll move him up if I know where he'll go. I was already convinced he should go up.

Well, I was arguing him above Ross in my post, so that would already be a start, I guess.

[Colonel M]

Saying Ross becomes class 1 (as in Pirate | Fighter) by C7 seems awkward. Especially with his rather insane CEXP gain (~30 CEXP per hit!?!). Not to mention that he's fairly accurate with the Hatchet in the first place.

Dozla can rise, but above Ross? Iunno...

EDIT: IIRC, there are only a few instances where he's ORKOed since there's a lack of the 7 AS Brigands. There's maybe... 1 or 2. The Archer isn't even that fast (though that far I could be wrong).

Edited August 30, 2009 by Colonel M

[Scarlet]

Saying Ross becomes class 1 (as in Pirate | Fighter) by C7 seems awkward. Especially with his rather insane CEXP gain (~30 CEXP per hit!?!). Not to mention that he's fairly accurate with the Hatchet in the first place.

I actually explained why I think he takes so long to reach his base class.

Also, it's true that the hatchet is pretty accurate, but due to Ross' non-existant SKL, he can still miss, especially if his target happens to be on any kind of Avd-boosting terrain.

Dozla can rise, but above Ross? Iunno...

See, even if Ross were to reach his base class a little earlier and thus get more levels until Dozla arrives, Dozla would still destroy him in durability and be hardly worse offensively, if at all. For this to no longer be true, Ross would have to reach, like, lv20 or 20/1 until Dozla arrives, and that is ridiculous.

Also, as I said, Dozla doesn't require any training in order to instantly be usable, while Ross doesn't build much, if any, utility while he tosses hatchets at the faces of random weak-ass enemies.

EDIT: IIRC, there are only a few instances where he's ORKOed since there's a lack of the 7 AS Brigands. There's maybe... 1 or 2. The Archer isn't even that fast (though that far I could be wrong).

The archers don't double or ORKO him, but they 2RKO him, which is still dangerous enough. Also, according to this, there actually are quite a few 7 AS brigands.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Raymond

[CATS]

Training Ross is fail, and he won't get to L10 by the end of Ch 3, so he's going to be eating up a slot and hurting your efficiency while you're doing it, since he's the worst earlygame unit aside from *maybe* Neimi. Dozla shows up and is instantly good, with no strings attached. I could easily agree with Dozla > Ross, and I agree that it's a good starting point for him.

Gilliam vs Eir Cormag:

Gilliam is cool early on. His rly high defense matters a good bit since many people are dying in just 2 or 3 hits, and there's not too many units that you'll be keeping around long-term, so using him shouldn't be an issue. Then you get more good units during the midgame, but you also get more slots, and those earlygame guys that you weren't gonna keep long-term (Garcia, probably atleast one of Artur/Lute, etc) start getting dropped.

So Cormag arrives and I'll say we have this:

14 Gilliam, C Franz, C Moulder: 14.5 Atk, 6 Spd----34 Hp, 16.5 Def, 7 Res, 25 Avo

9 Cormag: 14 Atk, 10 Spd----30 Hp, 12 Def, 2 Res, 24 Avo

Surprisingly close. Looking at this, perhaps Gilliam shouldn't move up much after all. Using him does create promotion issues with the fact that you have 3 Cavs that are high or god tier, and you get only 2 Knight Crests by Ch 14 on Eir Route. Gilliam has to wait for the third Knight Crest in Ch 16, or buy a Knight Crest for 10K in Ch 14 (ouch).

[Colonel M]

At worst I've had Ross be ready at Lv 10/1 by C5. Perhaps the latest being C6.

Though how bad does Dozla do lategame?

(BTW I don't disagree that Ross isn't good earlygame.)

Edited August 30, 2009 by Colonel M

[Progenitus]

I can't really agree with Dozla > Ross. Yeah, Ross sucks earlygame, but the earlygame chapters tend to have the fewest enemies and a relatively low enemy density as well, which means it's a lot easier to put up with someone's suck.

And he levels up extremely fast. If my calculations are correct, he's getting over 30 exp just for hitting an enemy, which is pretty easy to do since his hatchet is 1-2 range and has decent hit. And if he kills something, about 20 more than that. I can see him promoting by ch 6 or so. IIRC that's when I usually got him promoted too.

Unless I'm overestimating Ross' stats, or underestimating Dozla's. Let's see... level Ross needs to be to match Dozla's bases. I'm going to assume Fighter -> Hero.

Dozla's bases

43 HP, 16 str, 11 skl, 9 spd, 4 lck, 11 def, 6 res

HP: 10/20/9

str; 10/10

skl: lol

spd: 10/12

lck: lol (well actually, ross probably has a double digit lead in lck when Dozla joins, which can make a difference... though it'll probably cancel out with Dozla's initial skl and res leads)

def: 10/20/1

res: lol

Ross isn't that far behind in Dozla's offensive stats when the latter joins, though he does take awhile to match his HP/def. Supports probably lets him win avoid though (compounded by his lck lead, though again Dozla initially wins skl and res too).

Speaking of which, Ross' supports are better, though admittedly they're still unimpressive. Garcia is fast, but he's unlikely to be used beyond earlygame (I guess you could use him as a temporary support and then kill Garcia off when you want to drop him to open up the slot. I'm not sure what everyone is going to say about that though. If you keep Garcia though, I'd call GG). lolamelia. lolewan. Lute is nice but she's really popular (she has faster support in Artur, and Vanessa/Kyle as competition too), so Ross might not get her (if he does though, I'd call GG too). Gerik doesn't mind Ewan though, since tethys is only his clearly better option.

Dozla's is terrible. L'arachel, Rennac, Myrrh, Ewan, Garcia. He's extremely likely to go unsupported. his only real support is Garcia, but since his opponent is Ross, that isn't going to do him any favors.

Well, let's just see...

10/8 Fighter Ross

Iron axe

23.0 atk, 7.8 AS, 99.2 hit, 4.0 crit - - 30.0 avo, 28.2 hp, 7.0 def, 4.2 res, 14.4 critavo - - 11 con, 5 move

20/1 Dozla

Steel axe

27.0 atk, 9.0 AS, 88.8 hit, 21.3 crit - - 22.0 avo, 43.0 hp, 11.0 def, 6.0 res, 4.0 critavo - - 16 con, 6 move

Dozla has more att and a bit more AS, and a lot more crit, though I'm a little worried about that hit. Still, he can switch to iron for +10 hit, but he loses most of his att lead.

Defensively, he's winning.

By promotion, though...

10/20/1 Hero Ross, B Gerik

Iron axe/steel sword

30.0 atk, 13.4 AS, 118.9 hit, 17.1 crit - - 56.0 avo, 40.6 hp, 13.0 def, 9.6 res, 24.2 critavo - - 11 con, 6 move

20/7 Dozla

Steel axe

30.0 atk, 11.4 AS, 93.9 hit, 21.3 crit - - 28.6 avo, 48.1 hp, 12.8 def, 7.5 res, 5.8 critavo

Ross is winning offense by a bit. 2 more spd, and Dozla's hit is worrying me even if he uses iron. Though I guess whenever silver becomes available, but then Ross' att improves more than Dozla's (since iron axe -> silver is 7 more mt, while steel axe -> silver is 4 more).

Ross wins durability. Probably by the same amount that Dozla was winning when he first joined (it was 15 HP, 4 def, 2 res vs 8 avo. Now it's 7-8 HP vs 27-28 avo, 2 res. And Dozla's crit avo bothers me).

And it only gets worse for Dozla from here. Especially if we add Lute or Garcia as a support.

I guess it depends on how bad Ross' earlygame is, as well as what Ross can get as supports. However, I'd say that Ross beats Dozla overall by a greater margin than the average ppl earlygame are beating Ross (the average ppl, because if Ross is displacing someone he's going to replace a unit like Artur before a unit like Franz).

Who would you say has an average earlygame? I'd probably say Artur or Eirika/Colm (thief utility aside), but I'd like to see other people's opinions before I continue.

Gilliam vs Eir Cormag:

Gilliam is cool early on. His rly high defense matters a good bit since many people are dying in just 2 or 3 hits, and there's not too many units that you'll be keeping around long-term, so using him shouldn't be an issue. Then you get more good units during the midgame, but you also get more slots, and those earlygame guys that you weren't gonna keep long-term (Garcia, probably atleast one of Artur/Lute, etc) start getting dropped.

So Cormag arrives and I'll say we have this:

14 Gilliam, C Franz, C Moulder: 14.5 Atk, 6 Spd----34 Hp, 16.5 Def, 7 Res, 25 Avo

9 Cormag: 14 Atk, 10 Spd----30 Hp, 12 Def, 2 Res, 24 Avo

Surprisingly close. Looking at this, perhaps Gilliam shouldn't move up much after all. Using him does create promotion issues with the fact that you have 3 Cavs that are high or god tier, and you get only 2 Knight Crests by Ch 14 on Eir Route. Gilliam has to wait for the third Knight Crest in Ch 16, or buy a Knight Crest for 10K in Ch 14 (ouch).

Actually, Cormag joins at level 11 on Eir route. Although, it's ch 13, so I definitely disagree with Gilliam only being level 14. Maybe like 17, since Cormag joins like halfway through ch 13, plus Gilliam joins at ch 1 at a pretty high base level.

Edited August 30, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Scarlet]

At worst I've had Ross be ready at Lv 10/1 by C5. Perhaps the latest being C6.

It certainly is possible to have him reach his base class as early as that, but it requires favoritism, which isn't assumed in tiers if I'm not mistaken.

Though how bad does Dozla do lategame?

Actually, he doesn't do bad at all.

Let's take a look at chapter 16 (Eirika route), because that's the earliest I'd call lategame. Dozla has had around four and a quarter chapters to level up thus far, so I'll assume he's reached around Lv??/7.

Dozla, Lv20/7, C Garcia:

48.1 HP, 19.0 STR, 13.1 SKL, 11.4 SPD, 5.8 LUK, 12.8 DEF, 7.5 RES

Iron Axe: 27.5 Atk, 106.6 Hit, 26.55 Crt, 11.4 AS, 33.6 Avd, 13.3 Def, 8.0 Res

Steel Axe: 30.5 Atk, 96.6 Hit, 26.55 Crt, 11.4 AS, 33.6 Avd, 13.3 Def, 8.0 Res

Battle Axe: 32.5 Atk, 91.6 Hit, 31.55 Crt, 11.4 AS, 33.6 Avd, 13.3 Def, 8.0 Res

Silver Axe: 34.5 Atk, 101.6 Hit, 26.55 Crt, 11.4 AS, 33.6 Avd, 13.3 Def, 8.0 Res

Killer Axe: 30.5 Atk, 96.6 Hit, 56.55 Crt, 11.4 AS, 33.6 Avd, 13.3 Def, 8.0 Res

randomKnight (Steel Lance): 32 HP, 14 DEF, 2 RES, 10 Avd | 23 Atk, 86 Hit, 3 Crt, 3 AS

-> Dozla ORKOs with Steel Axe and up at 100 DHit, gets 6RKO'd at 37 DHit

randomCavalier (Steel Lance): 33 HP, 9 DEF, 3 RES, 26 Avd | 20 Atk, 91 Hit, 4 Crt, 6 AS

-> Dozla ORKOs with everything at at most 95 DHit, gets 8RKO'd at 42 DHit

randomCavalier (Steel Sword): 34 HP, 8 DEF, 4 RES, 32 Avd | 19 Atk, 96 Hit, 4 Crt, 9 AS

-> Dozla 2RKOs with everything at at most 74 DHit, gets 8RKO'd at 77 DHit

I think this should be proof enough that he totally wipes the floor with unpromoted enemies, and even against the ones that he can't double he does fairly well. Also, if he decides to whip out a killer axe, he can OHKO basically everything with a critical, of which he has pretty good chances of scoring, even if he doesn't double. Also, if sword users ever happen to annoy him, he can pull out a sword reaver basically whenever the hell he wants.

Also, for his doubling issues, there's Garm... That nice +5 SPD would sure as hell turn him into an offense monster. Of course, there's Garcia as competition, and Duessel in Eph route, but other than that? One of the cavaliers might promote to a GK and then abuse the hell out of their axe rank in order to be able to use Garm, but that's fairly unlikely. So he has some competition for Garm, but not as much as half the playable cast has competition for Vidofnir.

So what about promoted enemies then?

randomWarrior (Silver Axe): 48 HP, 10 DEF, 5 RES, 27 Avd | 34 Atk, 94 Hit, 5 Crt, 11 AS

-> Dozla 2RKOs with Silver Axe at 84 DHit and 3RKOs with everything else (he can always OHKO with a crit though), gets 3RKO'd at 60 DHit

This dude has a freaking silver axe. As such, only getting 3RKO'd by it is pretty damn good. His offense could obviously be better, but many people that are capable of doubling crap have trouble reaching the 34 Atk required to ORKO this dude, so this isn't exactly bad either. Additionally, he can always gamble and pull out his killer axe in hopes of scoring a crit, which OHKOs the entire map (except for maybe the boss).

randomGreatKnight (Steel Axe): 39 HP, 16 DEF, 9 RES, 22 Avd | 25 Atk, 81 Hit, 3 Crt, 9 AS

-> Dozla 3RKOs with Steel Axe and up at 89 DHit, or he can simply pull out a freaking hammer or halberd for 49 Atk, which barely misses out on OHKOing them. Or he can use a killer axe and hope for a crit. Dozla himself gets 4RKO'd at 47 DHit, which turns into a 5RKO if either his HP or DEF is just a single point above average.

So he has offense issues against the promoted dudes, but a crit can always OHKO them, so a killer axe does wonders here. Also, even against the promoted dudes his durability is more than good enough.

All in all, Dozlas offense is perfectly fine, and his durability is very good.

[Progenitus]

It's not so much that Dozla does fine. It's that it's worse than nearly everyone else on the team.

Let's just take Ross and see how he does... and since you gave Dozla a Garcia support, I'm assuming you think fielding Garcia is fair game. So...

10/20/1 Hero Ross, A Garcia/B Gerik

Iron axe/steel sword

33.0 atk, 13.4 AS, 133.9 hit, 32.1 crit - - 71.0 avo, 40.6 hp, 13.0 def, 9.6 res, 24.2 critavo

I have to go now, but this is significantly better than what Dozla is doing. His att alone is also matching Dozla with silver.

[Scarlet]

It's not so much that Dozla does fine. It's that it's worse than nearly everyone else on the team.

Okay, then what we want to find out is: how many people are excluded by that "nearly"?

Let's just take Ross and see how he does... and since you gave Dozla a Garcia support, I'm assuming you think fielding Garcia is fair game. So...

10/20/1 Hero Ross, A Garcia/B Gerik

Iron axe/steel sword

33.0 atk, 13.4 AS, 133.9 hit, 32.1 crit - - 71.0 avo, 40.6 hp, 13.0 def, 9.6 res, 24.2 critavo

I have to go now, but this is significantly better than what Dozla is doing. His att alone is also matching Dozla with silver.

I indeed think that fielding Garcia is fair game, so that's fine.

Also, I already conceded that Ross is superior to base level Dozla in every point once he promotes (unless he promotes earlier than level 20).

The question now is, when can Ross realistically achieve promotion, and what level will Dozla have at that point? Ross will likely still be far away from promotion when Dozla eventually shows up. If Ross were to promote at the beginning of chapter 17 (that would still be assuming 2 levels per chapter if Ross reaches his base class at the beginning of chapter 7), then Dozla would be around Lv9. I'm too lazy to check right now if Lv10/20/1 Ross beats a Lv9 Dozla as well, but even if he does, that means that he beats Dozla for a mere 5 chapters and required lots of training and a promotion item up to that point to achieve that, whereas Dozla just joined and immediately was useful, winning for at least 5 and a quarter chapters over Ross. So I'd say placing Dozla over Ross is fair.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Raymond

[CATS]

I can't really agree with Dozla > Ross. Yeah, Ross sucks earlygame, but the earlygame chapters tend to have the fewest enemies and a relatively low enemy density as well, which means it's a lot easier to put up with someone's suck.

It also makes it much more difficult to train him without hurting efficiency, since low enemy density means that you're able to move through the chaps very quickly and Ross has 4 move, plus less enemies just equals less chances for him to toss in his Hatchet chip damage in general. Fielding him earlygame is a pretty clear negative as he has nothing going for him and is just overall inferior to about all of your other choices until he gets out of trainee class (again, Neimi being the only possible exception, but still), by which point the earlygame is basically over anyways.

I'm gonna go ahead and say that if we assume efficient play, then Dozla wins by default, no questions asked. His good period comes before his bad period; the opposite is true for Ross. Dozla is bad lategame? Okay, just don't use him. IMO this is enough for Dozla to win on his own, since we're talking about lower-end units here.

Now, if we assume they're both used for the whole game anyways, it's harder to determine. Yes, Ross is better later, but he must make up for his poor earlygame, and Dozla wins midgame. I'm also inclined to say that lategame wins are less significant than midgame wins anyways due to the fact that PCs in general are more powerful for the lategame. This is especially true of axe-main units like Ross and Dozla who have some serious power weapons (lol garm) available to them with very little competition.

Edited August 30, 2009 by CATS

[Mekkah]

Dozla to top of Low for now fine with everyone, or do you suggest bottom of Lower Mid?

[Colonel M]

I'd say bottom of Lower Mid will suffice for now. I kind of see a gap between L'Archel and Dozla.

[Progenitus]

Okay, then what we want to find out is: how many people are excluded by that "nearly"?

I'd say that anyone above low will be better than Dozla by lategame.

I indeed think that fielding Garcia is fair game, so that's fine.

Also, I already conceded that Ross is superior to base level Dozla in every point once he promotes (unless he promotes earlier than level 20).

The question now is, when can Ross realistically achieve promotion, and what level will Dozla have at that point? Ross will likely still be far away from promotion when Dozla eventually shows up. If Ross were to promote at the beginning of chapter 17 (that would still be assuming 2 levels per chapter if Ross reaches his base class at the beginning of chapter 7), then Dozla would be around Lv9. I'm too lazy to check right now if Lv10/20/1 Ross beats a Lv9 Dozla as well, but even if he does, that means that he beats Dozla for a mere 5 chapters and required lots of training and a promotion item up to that point to achieve that, whereas Dozla just joined and immediately was useful, winning for at least 5 and a quarter chapters over Ross. So I'd say placing Dozla over Ross is fair.

It's not just about how long unit X is winning over unit Y. It's also about the magnitude of that lead.

When Dozla first joins, for example, he definitely wins durability, but his offense lead is rather small. He wins crit, and then wins AS by like 1 point. Then depending on his weapon, he wins att but loses hit by a lot, or wins att by a little and loses hit by a little. So Dozla is better, but not by a wtfamount.

On the other hand, when Ross is freshly promoted into 2nd tier, he wins every single offensive parameter AND wins every defensive parameter other than a single-digit HP loss. His att with a wimpy iron axe is almost the same as Dozla's with silver, and he has liek double Dozla's avoid. And then this doesn't really get any better for Dozla because he's still, what, 8 levels ahead? Which means Ross gains levels faster.

In other words, Dozla >> Ross when the former first joins, but after Ross promotes it becomes Ross >>>>>> Dozla.

(Actually, my initial comparisons didn't assume Garcia as a support. Throw him in, and things get even worse for Dozla, since Ross can get liek a B by the time Dozla joins, and an A before Dozla even gets a C).

It also makes it much more difficult to train him without hurting efficiency, since low enemy density means that you're able to move through the chaps very quickly and Ross has 4 move, plus less enemies just equals less chances for him to toss in his Hatchet chip damage in general.

There's not *that* much rushing through earlygame chapters. For example, ch 3 has a lot of walls to break through, which can slow you down and Ross can kinda keep up. Ch 2, IIRC, has thickets, which slow everyone down. Ch 5... if you want to recruit Joshua, you have to be careful because he doubles more or less everyone and might ORKO, so you'll probably have to use Gilliam or Seth to lure him in.

I guess if Seth solos the map, then maybe, but Seth soloing map makes everyone obsolete, so w/e.

Also, his hatchet chip damage is better than nothing, as long as he doesn't take a counter.

Fielding him earlygame is a pretty clear negative as he has nothing going for him and is just overall inferior to about all of your other choices until he gets out of trainee class (again, Neimi being the only possible exception, but still), by which point the earlygame is basically over anyways.

He's sucking for only a few chapters and they tend to be pretty short.

I'm gonna go ahead and say that if we assume efficient play, then Dozla wins by default, no questions asked. His good period comes before his bad period; the opposite is true for Ross. Dozla is bad lategame? Okay, just don't use him. IMO this is enough for Dozla to win on his own, since we're talking about lower-end units here.

My problem is that Dozla's good period doesn't last particularly long. Several chapters before people promote, he shows signs of slowing down.

On the other hand, Ross is terrible earlygame, but I'd say the time where he's good lasts longer than the time where he's bad.

Now, if we assume they're both used for the whole game anyways, it's harder to determine. Yes, Ross is better later, but he must make up for his poor earlygame, and Dozla wins midgame. I'm also inclined to say that lategame wins are less significant than midgame wins anyways due to the fact that PCs in general are more powerful for the lategame. This is especially true of axe-main units like Ross and Dozla who have some serious power weapons (lol garm) available to them with very little competition.

Not really. Lategame chapters tend to have more enemies, so you need superior offense to clear them out faster and such and better defense to not die and such.

For example, if there are 10 enemies in a given chapter, and everyone 3RKO's, it would theoretically take 30 attacks to clear them out.

Now if there are 30 eenmies in a given chapter, and everyone ORKO's, it still takes 30 attacks to clear them out.

I'm not seeing a big difference.

Also, Dozla's midgame win isn't terribly large. In fact, let me redo my Ross vs base Dozla comparison, but throwing in B Garcia this time. Raymond says Garcia is fair game, so...

10/8 Fighter Ross, B Garcia

Iron axe

25.0 atk, 7.8 AS, 109.2 hit, 14.0 crit - - 40.0 avo, 28.2 hp, 7.0 def, 4.2 res, 14.4 critavo - - 11 con, 5 move

20/1 Dozla

Steel axe

27.0 atk, 9.0 AS, 88.8 hit, 20.3 crit - - 22.0 avo, 43.0 hp, 11.0 def, 6.0 res, 4.0 critavo - - 16 con, 6 move

I'm not seeing a huge win for Dozla. Their offense is comparable (though again, I don't like Dozla's hit with steel axe), and Dozla wins durability by just a bit. He can probably take 2-3 more hits, although Ross can get more lucky dodges, and is less worried about getting critted, which does matter a little.

Now a little down the line... since Ross is 13 levels lower, it sounds fair to say that Ross gains 7 levels in the time it takes Dozla to gain 3. If they kill, say, a level 12 enemy, 10/8/0 Ross would get... 44 exp? For the kill. 20/1 Dozla would get 14 if my calculations are correct. Of course as Ross closes the level lead, the difference in exp gained shrinks, so this sounds fair to me.

10/15/0 Fighter Ross, A Garcia

Iron axe

29.5 atk, 9.9 AS, 120.4 hit, 20.3 crit - - 52.0 avo, 33.1 hp, 8.8 def, 5.6 res, 17.2 critavo

20/4 Dozla

Steel axe

28.5 atk, 10.2 AS, 91.3 hit, 20.8 crit - - 25.3 avo, 45.5 hp, 11.9 def, 6.8 res, 4.9 critavo

Ross is winning already. Or at least they're tied. Offense is marginally in his favor. Defensively, 27 avo and critavo vs 12 HP, 3 def, 1 res.

Edited August 31, 2009 by smash fanatic

[CATS]

There's not *that* much rushing through earlygame chapters. For example, ch 3 has a lot of walls to break through, which can slow you down and Ross can kinda keep up. Ch 2, IIRC, has thickets, which slow everyone down. Ch 5... if you want to recruit Joshua, you have to be careful because he doubles more or less everyone and might ORKO, so you'll probably have to use Gilliam or Seth to lure him in.

Natasha works too. Joshua won't attack her, so that's generally how I recruit him.

Ch 3 does not have "a lot of walls" to break through. It has 2. You can get past them and have units in the main room by the end of turn 2; Ross however won't be among those units who are already busting in there, because space is extremely limited here with multiple 1 tile wide bottlenecks, and you obviously want your better units moving up first. Ross will get stuck in the back with his near-worthless combat ability and 4 move, and once Franz and Seth can get at the enemies, Ross sure as hell won't be able to keep up considering that he's already behind. He probably ends up staying behind to help fight that one random Brigand in the lower treasure room, but it's still unlikely that he even gets the kill on it considering that his offense is balls. He might get to hit it twice, I guess.

Thickets in Ch 2? Naw, there's none of those, unless you're referring to forests, of which there are a few. Anyways, you need someone to get the two upper villages here, and Ross is already way behind because he has to spend an extra turn recruiting Garcia, not to mention that once again you have extremely limited space in that bottleneck at the fort, where most of the fighting takes place. Guess who gets stuck with village duty?

Then just look at Ch 7. The enemy density here is massively lol, and once again the game is cramming you into tight spaces, that little pathway you have to follow across the bottom of the map is only like 2-3 tiles wide, and then when you get to the end of it, you're thrown into a patch of mass forests, so that everyone's mobility goes to hell and thus you can only bring a few units forward at a time, i.e. the actual good units will be going in front and everyone else will be somewhere behind.

etc

He's sucking for only a few chapters and they tend to be pretty short.

How long does it take before he becomes atleast equal to another unit that could've been filling his slot, though? Ch 9 maybe? And that's a generous estimate imo.

My problem is that Dozla's good period doesn't last particularly long. Several chapters before people promote, he shows signs of slowing down.

It's still there, which is much better than, well, anyone below upper mid can claim, really. Who else in lower mid or below can claim that they ever have a time where they are able to create positive utility? Earlygame Gilliam is the only one I can think of. Ross might end up better than Dozla later, but this still doesn't mean that he's better than most of the other units you're using. At best, he's probably just on par with them, and he was obviously worse for most of the game before then.

Not really. Lategame chapters tend to have more enemies, so you need superior offense to clear them out faster and such and better defense to not die and such.

You also have more units out. Ch 15 for example. 76 enemies but 15 PCs on the field. Compare to Ch 9, which has 44 enemies but only 11 deployment slots. There's about 5 enemies per PC in Ch 15, and 4 per PC in Ch 9, and your guys in general all have way better offense in Ch 15 and are much more capable of one-rounding things. Killers have been buyable by now, and you've collected more powerful weapons in general even including a few Sacred Twins, aside from the obvious fact of PC stats just growing way faster than enemy stats in general.

Then in some lategame chapters, "there's more enemies" is barely even true at all. Ch 16 has 50 enemies, compared to Ch 9's 44. Ch 17 has 64, but many of these (Warriors, Wyverns and Druids) are late reinforcements, such that you'll finish the chapter well before all of them have time to appear. Then Ch 18 really has barely any enemies at all. Ch 19 finally has a shitload (97 enemies lol), but again you can finish the chapter before all of them show up, and again you have many more PCs on the field (17 to be exact). There's still only about 5.7 enemies per PC, assuming you somehow fight every single enemy including the boss.

Ch 20 has millions of enemies but you'll only fight a tiny fraction of them. In reality it has many fewer enemies than 15 and 19. It's probably closer to 16 and 17 in terms of actual enemy count. And it has fewer enemies (that you'll actually fight) per PC than like any other chap save maybe 18, since you have an absurd number of deployment slots. The final chap only has like 40 something enemies total. About 50 if you combine both parts of it.

Also, Dozla's midgame win isn't terribly large. In fact, let me redo my Ross vs base Dozla comparison, but throwing in B Garcia this time. Raymond says Garcia is fair game, so...

Garcia means more competition for good axes. They might actually be better off if he's not used. Yeah, Ross gets those support bonuses fast and early, but how much do they actually do for him? Not very much. His problem is Spd, not Atk, and the extra Avo is none too useful as his enemy phase is mostly non-existent until he can gain some ground in his base class. By the time those bonuses start making a significant difference, it won't be long before you start getting the h4x axes, and then Ross's offense will go down by quite abit as compared to what it would be had you not used Garcia, since now he no longer has a free claim to the Brave Axe or Garm.

Also, Garcia = more competition for the Speedwings that Ross so desperately wants. Not to mention Hero Crests. Joshua and Gerik are both high tier already, and you only get two Hero Crests before Ch 15, and only 3 in total, and Knight Crests can already be an issue on Eir Route. Ross could just go Pirate instead, but then Colm gets pissed off.

And "because Raymond said so" is hardly a good enough reason to assume Garcia gets used for the whole game. I believe you yourself said earlier in the topic that Garcia becomes meh after earlygame. He won't be good again until lategame when he can start using Garm, except that here he actually has competition for that, so maybe he won't become good again ever. I don't see why he's getting used.

Ross's only other serious option would be Gerik, but Gerik is in high demand support-wise on Eir Route. Innes and Saleh both already want to support him, and Gerik probably has only enough room for a single B to give to one of them, since Gerik himself would obviously like to devote attention to Tethys before anyone else. Then on Eph Route Gerik joins so late that the support is unable to do much. It takes until like Ch 16 or 17 before you even see a C. Bleh.

Supports aren't much help to Ross. And those comparisons you did are obviously looking different when you take away all that extra Atk, Hit and Avo from Ross.

Edited August 31, 2009 by CATS

[Progenitus]

This doesn't bode well for the debate I still have to finish up with you :o

[CATS]

Oh, also this.

Actually, Cormag joins at level 11 on Eir route. Although, it's ch 13, so I definitely disagree with Gilliam only being level 14. Maybe like 17, since Cormag joins like halfway through ch 13, plus Gilliam joins at ch 1 at a pretty high base level.

Cool. I thought I remembered Cormag joining higher, but couldn't find anything that said he did, so I just assumed base level.

Ch 1 at a pretty high base level? His base level is not that high. He's not Oswin. Excluding the outliers (Seth and Ross), our levels in Ch 2 look like this:

Vanessa: 1

Franz: 2

Eirika: 2-3

Garcia: 4

Gilliam: 4

It's not much of a difference.

I also don't quite agree with everyone promoting by Ch 15. My runs where I had an average level of 21 in Ch 15 were a long time ago, back when I didn't use Seth at all, and liek, didn't field him after he stopped being forced. On my current run, with him thrown into the equation, everyone else's levels are lowered. I mean yeah, we're not having Seth solo chaps, but the disparity in combat abilities between him and everyone else is too large to ignore. It becomes a choice of either giving Seth more kills or holding back and lowering efficiency, since no one else will be able to get those kills as quickly as he can, and you end up with Seth getting a significantly higher portion of the kills than any other single unit. Right now it's looking like the only unit I have who might be able to actually promote at L20 in Ch 15 is Franz.

Anyways, back to Gilliam vs Eir Cormag, the fact is that the Spd gap is more significant than the Def gap. 6 and 10 is a more significant difference than 12 and 16. And Cormag has excellent mobility compared to Gilliam actually having game-worst mobility, and Cormag can also promote whenever he wants, and is less support-dependent. Indeed half of Gilliam's Def lead comes only from his supports, and without the +1 Atk from his supports, Cormag actually leads in Atk.

"but gilliam gives bonuses to others"

Not useful bonuses, as others won't be much if any worse off without him. Moulder certainly won't care as he heals and he just supports Colm and Vanessa instead. Indeed Vanessa and Colm both rly want Moulder's support, so Gilliam being used might actually be hurting them if he steals Moulder's support away from one of them. And Franz has Natasha, Seth and even Forde. He's fine. Gilliam just starts a bit earlier than the alternatives, but since move gaps apparently matter, that's working against him, so w/e.

Hell, Cormag joins with an Elysian Whip, and is already L11, and has no promo item competition since Tana isn't likely to be used, while Gilliam is adding a potential 4th Knight Crest unit when we already get only 2 natural Knight Crests before the end of Ch 16 on Eir Route. Cormag immediately promoting to Wyvern Lord gives +4 Hp, +2 Def and Swords for raep vs axes (lol, +30 Avo / +2 Def), and also +2 Str, so Gilliam's durability lead almost totally disappears while Cormag gains an Atk lead on top of his Spd lead, and Cormag also gets +1 move so he literally has twice as much move as Gilliam. Or he can just promote to Wyvern Knight and have over twice as much Spd as Gilliam. lolraep

So yeah, I don't think Gilliam needs to be moving up much if any at all. Or perhaps it's just that Eir Cormag needs to go up too? I'll compare Gilliam to someone else tomorrow.

Edited August 31, 2009 by CATS

[Progenitus]

I also don't quite agree with everyone promoting by Ch 15. My runs where I had an average level of 21 in Ch 15 were a long time ago, back when I didn't use Seth at all, and liek, didn't field him after he stopped being forced. On my current run, with him thrown into the equation, everyone else's levels are lowered. I mean yeah, we're not having Seth solo chaps, but the disparity in combat abilities between him and everyone else is too large to ignore. It becomes a choice of either giving Seth more kills or holding back and lowering efficiency, since no one else will be able to get those kills as quickly as he can, and you end up with Seth getting a significantly higher portion of the kills than any other single unit. Right now it's looking like the only unit I have who might be able to actually promote at L20 in Ch 15 is Franz.

*shrug*

I'd play the game again and see what levels I get, but I don't know where my copy went and I'm too lazy to play it on an emulator

Anyway, I think Eir Cormag should move up. Since he joins at ch 11, I'm going to assume the game autolevels him twice, so...

31.7 HP, 15.1 str, 9.8 skl, 10.9 spd, 4.7 lck, 12.5 def, 2.3 res

Compare him to, say, Forde... level he needs to be to match his base stat.

HP: 15

str: 20/2

skl: lol

spd: 12-13

lck: lol

def: 20/1

res: lol

Forde will have supports, but that largely gives him att and half bonuses to def/avo. He's several points behind in str and def, so it'll just close the gap, although Forde will get a little more avo on top of his lck lead and small spd lead.

Basically, maybe a small HP/spd lead, with some skl/lck/res, and swords, versus flying.

For growths, their HP/def/spd/lck are too similar to care, Forde has more skl/res, but Cormag has 15% more str. And since Cormag is the lower level, he makes gains quickly.

For supports, Cormag's out of luck though. Natasha/Artur/Seth don't want to wait until chapter 13 to get supports, and Duessel is kinda meh in Eirika route. Tana is also pretty mediocre, although perhaps she could move up, but I'd need to look further into that.

By promotion... depends on what Cormag decides to go I guess. Wyvern Lord has 4 HP/2 str/2 def/1 con, and wyvern knight has 3 HP/1 str/3 spd. The former gives Cormag an even bigger def lead on Forde, and the latter will suddenly let Cormag be the one winning spd. Going WK actually lets Cormag win or tie more or less every stat. Which would leave flying vs swords/axes.

I can actually see a possible case for Eir Cormag > Forde. At the very least, I think Cormag should move up to Forde's level.

Then again, I find Forde to be too high. He always struck me as a pretty average character who's in a great class. And I find Joshua to be rather high too (I don't like his durability or his class). For example, compare to Lute. Lute is obviously losing for the first couple of chapters since she starts at level 1 with mediocre bases and no supports. But...

10/0 Lute, C Artur/C Vanessa

Fire

17.9 atk, 10.1 AS, 115.2 hit, 4.1 crit - - 42.2 avo, 21.1 hp, 6.3 def, 10.6 res, 22.1 critavo - - 3 con, 5 move

11/0 Forde, C Kyle

Iron Lance

16.0 atk, 10.3 AS, 110.1 hit, 7.0 crit - - 31.3 avo, 28.3 hp, 10.0 def, 4.3 res, 13.8 critavo - - 9 con, 7 move

12/0 Joshua, C Natasha

Steel sword

18.4 atk, 16.9 AS, 118.0 hit, 10.2 crit - - 44.8 avo, 29.6 hp, 6.4 def, 3.4 res, 14.1 critavo - - 9 con, 5 move

vs Forde... He's losing pow (2 att + hitting res). He's winning durability, but Lute's avo and res can be handy in certain situations (like if she's in a forest/fort, or to tank mages). Forde has more move/weapon triangle stuff, but Lute has 1-2 range.

vs Joshua... Offense would depend on what Lute can double. I have no enemy stats with me, unfortunately. However, durability is a different matter, since his only real lead defensively is 8-9 HP, but Lute also has 7 res. And Lute has 1-2 range, while Joshua can never get 2-range.

15/0 Lute, B Artur/C Vanessa

Fire

22.1 atk, 12.3 AS, 122.3 hit, 4.8 crit - - 53.9 avo, 23.3 hp, 8.1 def, 13.6 res, 29.3 critavo - - 3 con, 5 move

16/0 Forde, B Kyle/C Franz

Iron Lance

20.0 atk, 12.5 AS, 128.0 hit, 18.3 crit - - 40.5 avo, 32.5 hp, 11.0 def, 5.5 res, 22.5 critavo - - 9 con, 7 move

16/0 Joshua, B Natasha/C Gerik

Steel sword

20.9 atk, 19.0 AS, 130.0 hit, 19.3 crit - - 55.3 avo, 32.8 hp, 8.2 def, 5.2 res, 25.3 critavo - - 9 con, 5 move

It's actually fairly similar to the previous comparison, so just see above.

20/1 Lute MK, A Artur/B Vanessa

Thunder

31.4 atk, 15.6 AS, 120.4 hit, 11.1 crit - - 72.7 avo, 28.6 hp, 12.8 def, 19.6 res, 41.5 critavo - - 6 con, 7 move

20/1 Forde GK, A Kyle/B Franz

Steel Lance

27.6 atk, 16.3 AS, 132.7 hit, 24.8 crit - - 51.5 avo, 38.9 hp, 14.8 def, 8.5 res, 31.9 critavo - - 13 con, 6 move

20/1 Joshua SM, A Natasha/B Gerik

Steel sword

25.3 atk, 19.0 AS, 140.5 hit, 41.8 crit - - 61.5 avo, 41.0 hp, 12.0 def, 8.0 res, 36.5 critavo - - 9 con, 6 move

vs Forde... 4 att + hitting res gives Lute a big pow lead. Even though Forde can switch to better weapons, like a silver lance, he's still losing. I don't see 0-1 spd or the crit lead being significant in the face of so much att. Defensively, the res and HP are about equal, but 21 avo > 2 def. Or if you want to put it another way, 21 avo > 10 HP and 2 def, and then throw in res too. Forde has full weapon triangle control, but that only does so much.

vs Joshua... 6 att + hitting res is big. The crit can let Joshua work well with killing edges though, as well as the overkill spd I guess. Defensively, though, 11 avo/11-12 res beats out 13 HP, on top of the 1-2 range deal.

And neither have any answer to staves.

And then Lute wins from here, since her growths are overall superior (25-30 more pow over both of them, while having similar def. Same spd as Forde. 10 less than Joshua, but Joshua's is mostly overkill and probably just serves to give him more avoid, but she has more lck than both of them anyway. They both win HP by 35-40 though).

It would probably depend on how much weight you give to Lute losing earlygame. I'd say that it doesn't last long enough for it to overcome Lute winning here. At the very least, I don't see Joshua or Forde beating Lute by enough to be a tier above her.

...so anyway, I think Forde and Joshua should both drop to upper mid, probably below Lute/Artur/Saleh, and then Cormag below them all. Of course on Eph route I think Forde and Joshua should drop too. My first impression anyway.

[Mekkah]

Both Dozla moved up to bottom of Lower Mid.

Eir Cormag moved up to bottom of Upper Mid.

Both Forde moved to Upper Mid, below Artur/Lute.

Both Joshua are now in Upper Mid below Artur/Lute, rather than just one.

[CATS]

A tier between Forde and Kyle......what?

I'd much rather just keep Forde / Josh in high and move Lute up, rather than doing the opposite. It probably requires further examination, though.

Back to Eir Cormag, let's compare to Eir Duessel. Cormag's starting level is low for the time at which he joins, so he's able to grow pretty fast. Let's say he gets to L15, a good benchmark for when his Exp gains will start to drop off, and then promotes.

15/1 Wyvern Lord Cormag

19.3 Atk, 12.7 Spd----39.1 Hp, 15.5 Def, 2.9 Res, 31.5 Avo

Base Duessel (iirc he is autolevelled to 10 on Eir Route)

18.1 Atk, 12.6 Spd----42.7 Hp, 17.9 Def, 9.6 Res, 33.6 Avo

Flying vs durability. It doesn't stay arguable like this, though, because Cormag is 9 levels lower......

15/10 Wyvern Lord Cormag

23.6 Atk, 16.7 Spd----46.8 Hp, 17.7 Def, 4.2 Res, 42.6 Avo

15 Duessel

20.9 Atk, 14.1 Spd----46.9 Hp, 20.2 Def, 11.1 Res, 37.6 Avo

So yeah, now Cormag is winning. I'd say Cormag > Duessel on Eir Route.

[Progenitus]

hmmm, moving Lute up (as well as Artur. Maybe Saleh too, since when I requested he dropped, I compared him to Lute/Artur, so if they move up, he could possibly move up with them too) is possible. Though I think if Forde (and Joshua) remain in high, they should be at the bottom.

Compare Forde to Kyle...

Bases...

Forde has 1 spd

Kyle has 1 HP, 2 str, 1 def, 1 con

Growths...

Forde has 5 spd

Kyle has 5 HP, 10 str, 5 def

Okay, Forde has more skl/lck/res, for what it's worth. However, Kyle is also 1 level lower, so when that gap closes, he gains extra stats.

Supports...

Aside from each other, Forde has Vanessa (who has Moulder and Lute, so this is some competition), Eph/Eirika (only exist half the tiem, though since he has both lords he can get one of them), and Franz (sure).

Kyle has Eph (exists only half the time), Lute (who has Artur and Vanessa, so this is some competition too), lolsyrene, Colm (who has Neimi and Moulder, but Neimi needs to be played).

Whoever Forde ends up supporting, he's going to get a load of att and crit, and only small bonuses to def and/or avoid.

Whoever Kyle ends up supporting, he's going to get a load of def and/or avoid, with small bonuses to att.

HOwever, Kyle has a 10 str advantage in growth, so all supports really do is let Forde close the str gap, while Kyle makes his durability lead noticeable. All Forde really has is a small spd lead. Especially when supports finish. Well, unless we let Kyle adn Forde support each other in this scenario, in which case they get pretty similar bonuses. That just downplays Kyle's better affinity though, but I guess that's counteracted by Forde's more flexible support list (both lords rather than one, and two mounted units rather than a mage + thief).

*random supports*

20/1 GK Forde, A Kyle/B Franz

steel lance

27.6 atk, 16.3 AS, 132.7 hit, 24.8 crit - - 51.5 avo, 38.9 hp, 14.8 def, 8.5 res, 31.9 critavo

20/1 GK Kyle, A Forde/B Colm

steel lance

30.5 atk, 15.0 AS, 125.3 hit, 18.3 crit - - 51.0 avo, 41.5 hp, 17.8 def, 8.0 res, 29.0 critavo

1 spd, 0-1 avo vs 3 att, 2-3 HP, 3 def.

If we switch up their supports, say...

20/1 GK Forde, A Eph/B Vanessa

steel lance

29.6 atk, 16.3 AS, 127.7 hit, 27.8 crit - - 56.5 avo, 38.9 hp, 13.8 def, 7.5 res, 28.9 critavo

20/1 GK Kyle, A Eph/B Lute

steel lance

30.5 atk, 15.0 AS, 120.3 hit, 13.3 crit - - 64.0 avo, 41.5 hp, 17.8 def, 8.0 res, 26.0 critavo

1 spd vs 1 att, 7-8 avo, 3 HP, 4 def.

Oh, and Kyle has 1 more con.

Hmmm... maybe not a tier gap between the two. Still, there should be a gap. Kyle maybe towards the middle of high, and Forde (and Joshua) towards the bottom of high? Lute/Artur/Saleh move up above Forde/Joshua as well?

@ Eir Cormag.... Duessel also has A-ranks in everything, which means he can pick up any uber weaposn lying around, and uses it well since he has 16 con. Garm is the obvious example, although brave weapons are nice too, though I forget when you get them.

Still, he has some decent bases even if he was only level 11. It's kinda like eph Gerik, only Eph Gerik isn't autoleveled compared to his Eir-route counterpart. Eir Cormag could possibly move up even more, although I'd need to look into it. Perhaps Eir Cormag vs Eir Innes to start with? Innes initially has much better stats (and a few more chapters of usefulness), but Cormag has the whole 1-range and flying deal. And once Cormag promotes, he makes some big gains on innes' stat lead while still retaining 1-range and flying (WK is +3 spd!).

Edited August 31, 2009 by snakes utilt

[Mekkah]

though I forget when you get them.

Brave Sword in Ch17, the other three in Ch19. brb reading post. And yeah, I don't like tier gap between Forde/Kyle either.

[CATS]

Alright, well, if my last post about Dozla vs Ross gets no response, I'm gonna vote Dozla > Ross and that Dozla should go over him.

[Rewjeo]

Does anyone think Knoll could move up? At least above Marisa, although maybe above Rennac. She has big issues when she joins, and can't do much about them. In order for him to escape his massive suck, he just has to promote. He then has staves and phantoms. And even his combat isn't that bad. 19 ATK and 100 hit with Flux means if he ever needs to he can do some chip damage. Or he can just summon. 15 ATK and 86 hit with 6 range is pretty good. And he has no fear of counter attack while doing that. He also has a monopoly on Dark Tomes since the only other one who can use them is Ewan. This means he has Nosferatu to help his durability (22 ATK and 90 hit at 10/1 means he can restore ~30% of his HP even against enemies wiht higher res) and is guaranteed to get Gleipner (SIXTY effective ATK and 114 hit at 10/5), and Luna for whatever it's worth. He also has staves, which means at least heal/mend, and maybe physic later on. And if his summon survives through enemy phase? He can now attack twice or attack and heal without Tethys. And if she does dance for him? That's another attack/heal. I don't see how this is worse than Marisa sucking forever.

[Colonel M]

Gleipner doesn't have effective Mt. It's stupid, I know.