Getting a Tier List on this bad boy

[Jaybee]

You do realise that there are stats here until C5, right? Compiled by me?

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14812

Edited September 7, 2009 by Joshybear25

[grandjackal]

1. Gave a reason just above your post, crazy CATS *facepalm*

2. I said I took less than 10-15 turns. Your argument also appears to be "let Seth solo the game", which point why do we even have a tier list? Apparently, Seth can do everything, so I guess he should do it alone, because he rapes everyone forever. Fuck everyone else, let Seth do it.

3. He is growing practically twice as fast though. He gets more than most get for a kill just from hitting (about 37 exp a hit), and more than twice as much from a kill (around the 70's). I think your argument appears to be you are miscalculating how fast he's growing.

4. Why would Gerik want Innes? He'd prefer the offense boost, and in exchange I don't have to field Innes, as he is a sniper. Sniper is an inefficient class. Ross could attack 3 or 4 in a turn, while Innes would only attack one. Therefore, why should I even bother using him?

Saleh and Ross are equal benefit to his affinity, Gerik gets better bonuses from Ross, and Saleh has other options anyways. I see no reason Ross can't fill a B.

5. Here is why Tethys supporting is a problem.

-Gerik moves

-Tethys moves and dances him

-Gerik moves again

-They're nowhere near eachother that turn.

You are basically saying you are never dancing Gerik. On top of this, dancing Gerik means he can use all his move, meaning at times he will move out of her range anyways. Not only are you restraining captain wow, you are giving him a very inefficient partner anyways. It's why Echidna was given second thoughts, Gerik is just as accountable.

6. I just turned it on, Hard Mode and all. Starting chapter, he's getting 37 exp a shot. So either I have a busted game cartridge...I was having him fight a bandit in his joining chapter. Anyone else is free to comfirm it.

7. Care to explain how Gilliam got 4 levels himself when A. He's fighting nothing but mainly axers, B. His offense isn't as stunning himself, and C. He's technically overleveled on his average? Ross getting 4 levels is far more likely.

Then consider he's more accurately countering Mogalls and the majority of bonewalkers are lancers...

8. Seth might as well do everything then. Why are we even bothering tiering? Let's give Seth every stat booster while we're at it.Why not? He's god mode, he's the game. Why are you even arguing? You might as well argue every point with-

Why rise character x over character x? Seth's in god tier, he can do it anyways.

Come on, you can do better than that.

Also Josh, no I hadn't noticed. Someone oughta sticky that.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Kuja

[Jaybee]

It's only until C5, though, so...not yet. I'd rather wait until we have the desert before asking a mod to sticky it.

I'm powerbursting through all the chapters so I can confirm the C5 reinforcement turns on my Rom. I've got 16 minutes from P-C3 :D

Edited September 7, 2009 by Joshybear25

[Colonel M]

I find some of the strawCATting ridiculous. I've decided to take matters into my own hands. Let's start with his joining chapter:

Chapter 2

Alright, so I assumed the following team was going to be used:

- Eirika

- Franz

- Vanessa

- Molduh

- Garcia

- Ross

- Seth

Seth will be waiting kill-wise, for a reason of letting others play catch-up.

Turn 1:

Rescued Ross, Molduh dropped him. Ross heals himself and Garcia proceeds to kill off one bandit.

Turn 2:

Talked to Ross with Eirika, talked to Garcia (rescued him of course), bundled everyone up. Garcia dents a Brigand with a Hand Axe (forgot to dequip him).

Reinforcements arrive with having 5 AS.

So to see AS numbers... 5 on every enemy. 4 on the Archer, then 6 on the Boss. Whoops.

Turn 3:

Seth rescues Gilliam and equips the Steel Sword. Franz finishes the weakened Brigand. Garcia weakens a Brigand with his Iron Axe, Archer moves as well as the reinforcements.

Turn 4:

Vanessa gets the Pure Water. Franz weakens the damaged Brigand and Ross finishes him off. CEXP: 61. Molduh heals Franz, and Molduh gets damaged. Seth dents a Cutthroat, Franz gets dented by the Archer.

Turn 5:

Franz finishes the one Brigand off. Ross, Garcia, and Vanessa take on one Brigand with Vanessa finishing it off. Molduh heals Vanessa and Seth takes down an Archer. Seth kills a Brigand on the Enemy Phase and the Boss is left with 2 HP. Molduh heals Seth and Franz finishes the boss.

So Ross only has 1.9. Not worried.

Chapter 3

Notice there's a Band to the right of you within Hatchet range. You could feesibly trade the Hatchet over and take the Hand Axe which will 3RKO him then. However we're going to leave Garcia + Ross near each other.

Enemy's AS: 6. ONE has 7 AS but he's near Colm's alley. And 1 near the boss. Archer has 5, Thief has 10, Mercenary has 10, and the Bazba has 5 with the Steel Axe.

Turn 1:

Ross dents with the Hatchet while Garcia dents the broken wall. Redo the scenario with Gilliam and Seth and Franz + Vanessa breaks the wall.

Turn 2:

Neimi talks to Colm, Colm runs up so he can swipe the chest next turn. Ross dents the Brigand once again and Garcia breaks the wall. Franz breaks the wall and Seth + Vanessa charge onto the other Brigand. Seth... misses with a 94% chance so decide to wait a turn. Brigand misses Colm and Colm does his 6/whatever damage. Ross gets charged by the Brigand and he misses then Ross chips him. Franz attacks the Cuthroat and...

Turn 3:

Franz dents the Brigand so Vanessa can proceed to finish him off. Ross dents the Brigand and gains a level (and damaged). Molduh heals him. Ross finishes the Brigand off and gets about 60ish again. Colm gets damaged and dents the Brigand again.

Turn 4:

Colm used the Vulnerary and Ross damaged the Barricade. Vanessa uses the Chest Key and proceeds next to Franz. Franz gets the Javelin and rushes closer up to the fight. Colm dodges and chips the Brigand again. Ross dodges the Hand Axe monster and gains another level up. Franz dents the Brigand and Ross proceeds to finish him off... but misses. Not worried though. Colm picks a chest then finishes off a Brigand. Ross dodges and finishes off the Bandit. The Archer goes toward Ross for 7 damage while Ross dents him. Franz loses his Vulnerary (big deal).

Turn 5:

Garcia misses on the Thief. No choice but let Franz damage the Archer and allow Ross to Hatchet it once more. Franz is Level 4 now. Ross miseses again but Seth has to hit the Thief. Eirika isn't within range so I'll have to end my turn again. The Archer picks on Franz.

Turn 6:

Ross finishes with an Iron Axe and gains another Level up. Seth dents the Steel Axe Brigand and Eirika dodges the Hand Axe!Brigand. Ross dents the Cutthroat and dodges the attack! Garcia misses again... but Eirika + Vanessa take on the dented Brigand from Ross. Vanessa FINALLY gets a level up (I'm not trying to prevent her from getting kills folks, it's hard with Axe users). The Steel Axe Brigand hits Garcia and Garcia kills him.

Turn 7:

Franz just moves up to recieve the Mercenary. This gives Vanessa a chance. Mercenary comes and dents Franz and Franz counterblows.\

Turn 8:

Ross misses with the Hand Axe and I want Vanessa to have a chance of a kill. Oh well, just 1 turn. Vanessa finishes him off.

Turn 9:

Put everyone up close.

Turn 10:

Seth misses. Geez. AND he gets whomped by the Steel Axe. Seth gets him back on the Enemy Phase though, leaving him with 11 HP.

Turn 11:

I hate it took this long. Ross miisses on the Boss. So does Garcia. Seth goes for the killing blow and Eirika takes the throne.

Chapter 4

Benched Gilliam and got Colm out so he could get some CEXP. Let's go!

Turn 1:

My Ross was a bit Spd-blessed (6) but decided to stick with being average I equipped the Hatchet. Had Vanessa use the Pure Water to lure the Evil Eyes. Artur gets the Iron Axe (I plan to use Lute instead). Eirika gets attacked by a Revenant and proceeds to dent him. Ross gets dented by a Revenant and doubles him with the Hatchet for 10x2 damage, also gains a level up. Eirika gets attacked again (eep...). Vanessa + Pure Water + Javelin = pure genious against those retarded things.

Turn 2:

Moulder heals Eirika up and Ross proceeds to finish his weakened Revenant. Same with Eirika. Seth picks up Artur to do what I did with Gilliam. This way the Revenants that appear from the north get chipped. Colm finishes one Revenant and Eirika finishes the Bonewalker. Seth finishes an Revenant... I forgot that these guys have 0 AS (pathetic). Vanessa gets charged by the Evil Eye and dies once again. Woohoo!

Turn 3:

So I remember Seth can at least dent the Bonewalkers, so I proceed to do that. I keep Eirika + Ross toward the northwest so they can take on the reinforcements. Same with Franz. Garcia kills a Bonewalker on his own and Vanessa dents another. Seth rides south to obtain Lute. A Revenant misses Garcia and Garcia proceeds to raep him. Revenant charges at Vanessa and she finishes him off with a Crit. The second one comes around and she misses. Bonewalker misses Seth and Seth dents him with the Javelin. Evil Eye proceeds to attack Vanessa and Vanessa beats it down.

Turn 4:

Vanessa moves further back and hits the other Bonewalker with the Javelin. She misses. ;_; Franz finishes the weakened Bonewalker Seth left and Moulder heals Ross. Revenant attacks Garcia and Garcia, of course, rapes him. Then the Bonewalker picks a fight with him and proceeds to get destroyed as well. 4 Revenants appear.

Turn 5:

Moludh heals Colm and Garcia swallows a Vulnerary. Seth gets Lute and Lute damages the Bonewalker. Franz kills 2 Revenants and one picks a fight with Eirika. Bonewalker misses Lute and Lute proceeds to dent him again.

Turn 6:

Colm finishes a Revenant. Vanessa dents the Revenant and Ross finishes it off. I decide I'll allow Ross the Revenant near the bushes and Lute is killing the Revenant + Entombed.

Turn 7:

Lute damages the Revenant. Vanessa + Franz ferry Ross and Moulder heals Vanessa. Revenant misses Lute and Lute finishes it off.\

Turn 8:

Vanessa dents the Revenant which Ross dents at the very least. God he couldn't finish it off. Vanessa gets attacked by the Revenant and she proceeds to finish it off. Revenant hits Lute and Lute dents it.

Turn 9:

Ross finishes the Revenant off.

Turn 10:

Ross gets attacked by the Entombed. Have gotten C Ross and Garcia. Vanessa proceeds to finish the Entombed off.

So yeah. Here were the levels:

Eirika - 5

Seth - 2

Franz - 5

Vanessa - 5

Ross - About Level 9 if he finished the Entombed off. If I allowed him to chip one more enemy, definitely 10.

Garcia - 5

Colm - 3

Lute - 2

Despite my turn counts being slightly higher, it was still pulling efficiency. Mine were due to stupid RNG tactics (Seth missing with 94%, Ross with 81%, etc). Otherwise I think it's quite possible to have a Level 10/1 Ross by C5 even.

Probably useless information, as some may say.

---

Don't try blowing this off. I also thank you for making me have to restart C9 to get reinforcement stats (and kill off Forde + Franz) as well.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Colonel M

[CATS]

Gave a reason just above your post, crazy CATS *facepalm*

Only reason I saw was "his offense isn't bad against Ch 4 Revenants." The rest of it was just stating how much combat Ross needs to level, or comparing 10/1 Ross to Garcia.

I said I took less than 10-15 turns.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14609&view=findpost&p=564881

Direct quote:

Well I'm not sure as rarely I keep track, but I can garuntee you I didn't take more than 10-15 turns on any of these chapters.

Your argument also appears to be "let Seth solo the game", which point why do we even have a tier list? Apparently, Seth can do everything, so I guess he should do it alone, because he rapes everyone forever. Fuck everyone else, let Seth do it.

Please quote the passage where I stated this.

He is growing practically twice as fast though. He gets more than most get for a kill just from hitting (about 37 exp a hit), and more than twice as much from a kill (around the 70's). I think your argument appears to be you are miscalculating how fast he's growing.

Explain how and what I'm miscalculating.

Why would Gerik want Innes? He'd prefer the offense boost, and in exchange I don't have to field Innes, as he is a sniper. Sniper is an inefficient class. Ross could attack 3 or 4 in a turn, while Innes would only attack one. Therefore, why should I even bother using him?

Why would he prefer the offense boost?

Innes is upper mid. "omg sniper." Too bad he has excellent offense for a long period of time. He's toward the upper end of the tier list, so he's definitely got a shot at being fielded. If you want to go into detail here, I'll be happy to break out some numbers.

Saleh and Ross are equal benefit to his affinity, Gerik gets better bonuses from Ross, and Saleh has other options anyways. I see no reason Ross can't fill a B.

Saleh has other options? Who?

Here is why Tethys supporting is a problem.

Sure, they don't get to build support on a turn that Tethys dances for Gerik, but that doesn't happen on every turn, and supports don't build on every turn anyways. You're not playing through with only Gerik and Tethys. Rather, you have 12 units on the field, and all of them want Tethys's attention.

I just turned it on, Hard Mode and all. Starting chapter, he's getting 37 exp a shot. So either I have a busted game cartridge...I was having him fight a bandit in his joining chapter. Anyone else is free to comfirm it.

In Ch 2, if Ross is L1, I'm seeing 34 Exp for hitting the boss. 33 for hitting L3 Brigands. 31 for hitting the L1 Archer. I've levelled him twice now and 34 is the highest I've seen for hitting anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrYsB0Xe194

1:45 and 4:35

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S6NV1OZPQ0&feature=related

0:07

Care to explain how Gilliam got 4 levels himself when A. He's fighting nothing but mainly axers, B. His offense isn't as stunning himself, and C. He's technically overleveled on his average? Ross getting 4 levels is far more likely.

Then consider he's more accurately countering Mogalls and the majority of bonewalkers are lancers...

Gilliam getting 4 levels? Please quote where I said he's getting 4 levels? I just said if he managed to get a Spd point, which can happen even if he gains only 1 level.

Majority of the bonewalkers are using lances? No, half are using lances, and the lance bonewalkers are on the other side of the map from your starting point. Ross won't be able to get to them with his 4 move.

Seth might as well do everything then. Why are we even bothering tiering? Let's give Seth every stat booster while we're at it.Why not? He's god mode, he's the game. Why are you even arguing? You might as well argue every point with-

Why rise character x over character x? Seth's in god tier, he can do it anyways.

Come on, you can do better than that.

Again, do quote the passage where I stated this as my argument.

[CATS]

Don't have time to look at that Colonel M post in detail, but just glancing, I already notice this:

Turn 1:

Ross dents with the Hatchet while Garcia dents the broken wall. Redo the scenario with Gilliam and Seth and Franz + Vanessa breaks the wall.

Turn 2:

Neimi talks to Colm, Colm runs up so he can swipe the chest next turn. Ross dents the Brigand once again and Garcia breaks the wall. Franz breaks the wall and Seth + Vanessa charge onto the other Brigand. Seth... misses with a 94% chance so decide to wait a turn. Brigand misses Colm and Colm does his 6/whatever damage. Ross gets charged by the Brigand and he misses then Ross chips him. Franz attacks the Cuthroat and...

--Unless I'm misreading, it sounds like you waited until turn 2 to break the wall. Why?

--Seth wouldn't have missed if you hadn't had him rescue Gilliam. I notice that Seth also misses against the boss on turn 10.

--You're allowing the Brigand to attack Ross on enemy phase, when Ross's counter is the weakest you have? Why?

[Colonel M]

Don't have time to look at that Colonel M post in detail, but just glancing, I already notice this:

Turn 1:

Ross dents with the Hatchet while Garcia dents the broken wall. Redo the scenario with Gilliam and Seth and Franz + Vanessa breaks the wall.

Turn 2:

Neimi talks to Colm, Colm runs up so he can swipe the chest next turn. Ross dents the Brigand once again and Garcia breaks the wall. Franz breaks the wall and Seth + Vanessa charge onto the other Brigand. Seth... misses with a 94% chance so decide to wait a turn. Brigand misses Colm and Colm does his 6/whatever damage. Ross gets charged by the Brigand and he misses then Ross chips him. Franz attacks the Cuthroat and...

--Unless I'm misreading, it sounds like you waited until turn 2 to break the wall. Why?

--Seth wouldn't have missed if you hadn't had him rescue Gilliam. I notice that Seth also misses against the boss on turn 10.

--You're allowing the Brigand to attack Ross on enemy phase, when Ross's counter is the weakest you have? Why?

I waited until turn two because I did this, if you read it through:

- Ross dented the Brigand, Garcia hit the one wall. Franz + Vanessa took on the other but lacked the power to break through it. So I had to wait on that one.

Oh geez, are you kidding me? I know this crap, I rescued ON PURPOSE! This was to make Seth a weakener.

Uh... because Ross was in the way?

I could've also done the whole "Ross was left there and he continued to fight the Brigand and the team goes north", which isn't a bad idea, but instead I allowed him to take a shot so I didn't get criticized for favoriting him.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

Only reason I saw was "his offense isn't bad against Ch 4 Revenants." The rest of it was just stating how much combat Ross needs to level, or comparing 10/1 Ross to Garcia.

Oh know, Ross needs to hit 12 things in 3 chapters, call the police...

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14609&view=findpost&p=564881

Direct quote:

Well I'm not sure as rarely I keep track, but I can garuntee you I didn't take more than 10-15 turns on any of these chapters.

Does this imply I was taking 10-15 turns to do this? I recall 7 not being more than 10-15.

Your argument also appears to be "let Seth solo the game", which point why do we even have a tier list? Apparently, Seth can do everything, so I guess he should do it alone, because he rapes everyone forever. Fuck everyone else, let Seth do it.

Please quote the passage where I stated this.

Explain how and what I'm miscalculating.

Colonel seems to agree with me. I have others able to back me up on it. Any more babbling?

Why would he prefer the offense boost?

Hell, why would he want anything? The dude is Ike. Now explain why Tethys needs the support, and why Innes, a dude who's only use is pure offense would want a defensive affinity boost?

Innes is upper mid. "omg sniper." Too bad he has excellent offense for a long period of time. He's toward the upper end of the tier list, so he's definitely got a shot at being fielded. If you want to go into detail here, I'll be happy to break out some numbers.

Explain why he wants a defensive support. He's a sniper, defense is useless to him.

Saleh has other options? Who?

Whoops, was thinking of a different sage it seems. Oh well, not like he can't take the A.

Sure, they don't get to build support on a turn that Tethys dances for Gerik, but that doesn't happen on every turn, and supports don't build on every turn anyways. You're not playing through with only Gerik and Tethys. Rather, you have 12 units on the field, and all of them want Tethys's attention.

Yet still it's inefficient, because to keep said boosts, you need to keep Gerik glued to the backliner. I'd rather Gerik support frontliners so he's out on the frontlines, always doing what he does best. Less he has to babysit, the better (another reason he wouldn't care to support Innes).

In Ch 2, if Ross is L1, I'm seeing 34 Exp for hitting the boss. 33 for hitting L3 Brigands. 31 for hitting the L1 Archer. I've levelled him twice now and 34 is the highest I've seen for hitting anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrYsB0Xe194

1:45 and 4:35

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S6NV1OZPQ0&feature=related

0:07

Even considering now, you only had him attack twice the entire map, of which you was solely to feed him kills. You could have thrown a hatchet and Eirika would have cleanly killed the brigand without needing to land a crit, which leaves Franz to do something else with his time. He could have just flung axes at things to make it easier to kill these enemies, and you held him back for no reason other than to fulfill errands you could have fulfilled on the world map. You didn't even bother to bring Garcia in to mix it up. You could have done better here.

Next chapter, you decided to take the long way around for...some reason. You could have just broken through the middle walls and been in the center room by turn 3. I notice you don't trade around items (what, afraid you'll break a wall ina single turn and allow Ross more exposure to enemies?). Using a lockpick on the north door also is a waste of a pick if it's faster to just break through the wall anyways.

I'm faster than you, and I don't even keep track of how fast I go. Fuck, I used Ross in the process, as he can ding the wall with no trading required, as he's always garunteed to have his hatchet. Even without serious use, Ross can help you get through the level faster than bothering with Colm picking doors.

Noticed you had Neimi chip away rather than Ross, despite the fact he levels faster with better STR growth, and is doing more damage given than normally he could have been level 3 by then, and still leveling faster. Chip away at the brigand, someone breaks the wall, turns the corner to chuck another axe, someone takes a much weakened kill. He then has access to the southern treasure bandit, of which we could easily afford to chip away as someone chips at the southern broken wall (totally Gilliam), Colm running around to pick the chest without picking the door, all while the rest of the team zeroes in on the boss. Because seriously, Colm has no reason to barge in there. It's like you're purposefully not using Ross out of spite. He can be used, and I don't lose any turns out of it. He's not a "negative" as you say. You just choose to not use him. Considering eventually, we can actually get results out of him (he basically is his dad's superior as a pirate, and Garcia's sort of known for great earlygame). On top of this, he could have supported Garcia, now we got both of them+powered up versions of themselves.

Step. It. Up.

Glad I have a mute button too.

Gilliam getting 4 levels? Please quote where I said he's getting 4 levels? I just said if he managed to get a Spd point, which can happen even if he gains only 1 level.

Fuck what you say, because averages dictate that Gilliam needs 4 levels to get speed, just like Ross. Guess who the fuck has the faster leveling speed? By your logic, and with what Colonel shows, I could have a Ross with 7-8 AS by the time Gilliam even has 5, simply because Ross levels faster. Using NORMAL logic however, Ross will get 4 AS before Gilliam, so I don't care if you said it or not, because you don't even function on logical principle at this point.

Majority of the bonewalkers are using lances? No, half are using lances, and the lance bonewalkers are on the other side of the map from your starting point. Ross won't be able to get to them with his 4 move.

3 of them use swords, and there is more than 6 bonewalkers. On top of that, this map is small and the bonewalkers are capable of movement. Ross getting to attack them is not a problem. You're just purposefully trying to make Ross look bad. Notice how I didn't nock Gilliam's move, just the fact he doesn't have the speed. By your logic, Ross is garunteed better than Gilliam at this point.

Again, do quote the passage where I stated this as my argument.

Quote? You imply such things throughout hte topic. I don't need to quote you, I just have to ask whoever's been here.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Kuja

[Fei Mao]

(Redirected to the Hard Mode stat topic)

Edited September 7, 2009 by Cyas

[Colonel M]

I just got C9 uploaded. BTW I'm not doing C11 due to FoW. I have to finish this chapter though (Lute died. Urgh), but I can get these done a bit faster than I thought.

[Jaybee]

I'll be doing FoW chapters. My rom finally decided to start working so now I'm on C5.

[CATS]

- Ross dented the Brigand, Garcia hit the one wall. Franz + Vanessa took on the other but lacked the power to break through it. So I had to wait on that one.

Yeah, I read that. I'm just wondering why Neimi didn't hit the upper wall (Garcia + Neimi is enough to break that one). Had you broken the upper wall on the first turn, you could've gone ahead and attacked the Brigand behind it with more than just Ross's 10-11 Atk. Also notice that Seth could've broken either one of the walls by himself if he hadn't spent his turn rescuing Gilliam, or atleast contributed to hitting the walls so that others could go ahead and start attacking the enemies on the other side.

Oh geez, are you kidding me? I know this crap, I rescued ON PURPOSE! This was to make Seth a weakener.

Ofcourse you did it on purpose. The point is that it lowered your efficiency.

Uh... because Ross was in the way?

Why'd you leave him in the way to get attacked when his counterattack is so weak? Almost anyone else's counter would've done more to the Brigand and allowed you to finish it faster on the next turn.

Does this imply I was taking 10-15 turns to do this? I recall 7 not being more than 10-15.

It doesn't imply that. And it doesn't imply that you were taking less turns than that, either.

I assumed you were taking 10-15 turns, because Ross hitting L10 by the end of Ch 4 if you take only 7 turns per chap doesn't make any sense. If you took 21 turns between Ch 2, 3 and 4, then Ross hitting something on each and every turn results in 630 Exp gained, putting him at L7. A kill is about +20 Exp over a hit, so in order to make it to 900 Exp, he'd have to kill something on 11 of those 21 turns, and hit something on every single one of the remaining 10 turns.

There's only 37 enemies in Ch 2-4 and you have about 9 units on the field, so if you split those kills evenly, each unit gets 4-5. Thus, how would you justify Ross getting 11 kills when he's the worst fighter you have?

Or, more likely, you could've been taking longer than 7 turns per chap.

Colonel seems to agree with me. I have others able to back me up on it. Any more babbling?

So you're basically saying that you're right and you don't need to explain why. Maybe you think that's a good argument, but personally, I don't find it very convincing. Again, do you have any serious logic or evidence to support your claims?

Even considering now, you only had him attack twice the entire map, of which you was solely to feed him kills.

That's not me playing. You'll notice that those vids were uploaded over a year ago. It's just some random guy's playthrough I found. The point is that the videos clearly show Ross gaining 61 Exp for a kill and then 32 for a hit, not 70 and 37.

Fuck what you say, because averages dictate that Gilliam needs 4 levels to get speed, just like Ross. Guess who the fuck has the faster leveling speed? By your logic, and with what Colonel shows, I could have a Ross with 7-8 AS by the time Gilliam even has 5, simply because Ross levels faster. Using NORMAL logic however, Ross will get 4 AS before Gilliam, so I don't care if you said it or not, because you don't even function on logical principle at this point.

Averages aren't absolute. FE8 has no fixed mode. If Ross and Gilliam are both L5, then the odds that either Ross still has 3 Spd, or Gilliam has 4 Spd, are about 47%. Almost half; those odds are definitely too big to be ignored.

3 of them use swords, and there is more than 6 bonewalkers. On top of that, this map is small and the bonewalkers are capable of movement. Ross getting to attack them is not a problem. You're just purposefully trying to make Ross look bad. Notice how I didn't nock Gilliam's move, just the fact he doesn't have the speed. By your logic, Ross is garunteed better than Gilliam at this point.

More than 6 Bonewalkers? No.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3r3UzlLZU8

The lance bonewalkers are the reinforcements that come in on the right edge of the map. They're not even on the map initially, so they're not going to reach your group before you reach them. Ross takes 3-4 turns to get all the way over there, while Seth, Franz and Artur (with his better starting position) can all get over there in just 1-2 turns, and there's no reason to have them holding back and leaving the enemies alive so that Ross can show up 2 turns later and chip at them.

Don't know what Gilliam has to do with anything.

Quote? You imply such things throughout hte topic. I don't need to quote you, I just have to ask whoever's been here.

Putting words into the other guy's mouth and then refusing to quote where he actually said those things? Once again, not a very convincing argument. "Everyone thinks you're wrong" doesn't qualify as a logical argument, either. Saying this yet again:

Consider this: Not counting bosses since Ross basically never has a shot at killing those (usually Seth's job), there's only 56 enemies in all of Ch 2-5 combined. Whereas you have 8-9 units on the field in these chaps. Splitting the kills evenly, each unit gets 6-7 kills, so even if Ross got 100 Exp for a kill he would not reach L10, and he doesn't get 100 for a kill, he gets like 60 starting off, which decreases with every level he gains. Yeah, he gets some more just from hitting, but also keep in mind that in reality he's getting less kills than that as he sucks at killing things, so it comes out to be about the same (matches up with my experiences, for sure--he finished Ch 5 having gained nearly 6 levels).

---

Also consider turncounts. My total turncount for these 4 chaps was 27 turns, but I'm gonna subtract two for RNG bullshit/holding back with Seth. If Ross gets ~30 Exp for a hit, then even if he had managed to hit something on each and every one of those 25 turns, he would gain only 750 Exp. Not enough to reach L10. Yeah, there will be turns when he kills, but there's also gonna be turns where he doesn't hit anything at all. I mean, you're talking about giving him 900 Exp by the end of Ch 5. I'm gonna say that you either went out of your way to give Ross more kills than he would otherwise have gotten, or spent unnecessary additional turns which allowed him to get more hits in. I don't know how you're coming up with 10-15 turns on these chaps, it's FE8, enemy density is low and the maps are small and straightforward.

---

And something else to think about……

Ch 15 is what people usually cite as promotion time. For Franz to hit L20 by then, he needs to gain ~1.35 levels per chapter (19 levels in 14 chapters). So, assuming 1.35 levels per chapter to be the growth rate of our average unit, consider this:

Ross's Exp gains for killing are a little under 2 times as high as everyone else's. At L1 he gains ~61 Exp for a kill, while at L8 or 9 he's getting ~49. About 55 Exp per kill on average. While Franz gains ~30. So Ross should be growing at about twice the rate of all your other units, correct?

No, only if he had decent combat, which he doesn't. He's less powerful and less durable than your other units. He won't be able to get as many rounds of combat in, and he certainly won't be able to get as many kills in. He has no enemy phase and he's like 4-5RKO'ing while others are 3RKO'ing at worst (often doing better than that). So while his Exp gains are higher, the amount of action he sees and the amount of kills he gets are also lower.

You said on your game, Ross was tier 1 by Ch 5. That means he gained 9 levels in 3 chapters; his average levelling rate was 3 levels per chapter. But if 1.35 levels per chap is the average growth rate, then even if Ross was growing twice as fast as everyone else, his growth rate would only be 2.7. And as I just said, he's not, in fact, growing twice as fast as your other units; he’s bad at actually getting the kills and hits necessary to gain Exp.

If he's just growing 1.5 times faster than everyone else (not sure about that, but definitely more reasonable than twice as fast), then his growth rate is about 2 levels per chap. Not nearly fast enough to reach L10 by the end of Ch 4. For him to do that, as you’re suggesting, his growth rate would be over twice as high as that of the average unit, which obviously can’t be justified when his Exp gains aren’t quite twice as high and his combat is balls.

None of this has gotten any kind of a direct response.

Hell, why would he want anything? The dude is Ike. Now explain why Tethys needs the support, and why Innes, a dude who's only use is pure offense would want a defensive affinity boost?

I agree, Tethys doesn't care about the bonuses as much as a combat unit would. Again, Gerik cares that her support is so much faster than anyone else's. He's good, but he's not invincible.

Despite the fact that Innes is a Sniper, the enemies are quite capable of attacking him. Still, you're right about this, I'll admit; he doesn't care about defenses as much as a melee unit like Ross.

Edited September 7, 2009 by CATS

[Colonel M]

- Ross dented the Brigand, Garcia hit the one wall. Franz + Vanessa took on the other but lacked the power to break through it. So I had to wait on that one.

Yeah, I read that. I'm just wondering why Neimi didn't hit the upper wall (Garcia + Neimi is enough to break that one).

*Facepalm*. Let's re-hash this... very carefully. I did this... on puprose. Neimi went up to recruit Colm anyway.

Had you broken the upper wall on the first turn, you could've gone ahead and attacked the Brigand behind it with more than just Ross's 10-11 Atk.

Dude, I'm training the guy. I could've also made all my units go north and left Ross to attack the Brigand. I didn't hurt efficiency.

Also notice that Seth could've broken either one of the walls by himself if he hadn't spent his turn rescuing Gilliam, or atleast contributed to hitting the walls so that others could go ahead and start attacking the enemies on the other side.

The main point was making Seth a weakener.

Oh geez, are you kidding me? I know this crap, I rescued ON PURPOSE! This was to make Seth a weakener.

Ofcourse you did it on purpose. The point is that it lowered your efficiency.

Look, quit strawmaning my argument. I didn't want Seth to pulverize a Brigand and waste the CEXP that I could've gotten. By doing so, I could've at least plopped his HP low enough SO SLIM LANCE!VANESSA CAN FINISH HIM OFF!!!

Jesus Christ are you stupid or something?

Uh... because Ross was in the way?

Why'd you leave him in the way to get attacked when his counterattack is so weak? Almost anyone else's counter would've done more to the Brigand and allowed you to finish it faster on the next turn.

Gaining CEXP. Sheesh. That and I did this:

Ross hit the Brigand. Garcia hit the broken wall. Practically had to end the turn.

---

I don't call people out all the time, but seriously: think before you post. I wasn't harming efficiency at all with this either. Another thing to keep in mind: C3's longer turn count wasn't because of Ross, but because of VANESSA! Am I suddenly going to penalize Ross because I had to help someone else? I rescued Gilliam with Seth to drop his AS to 6 so single hit wise he would be an efficient weakener. I also could've finished something off with Silver Lance if I had to.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Colonel M

[CATS]

*Facepalm*. Let's re-hash this... very carefully. I did this... on puprose. Neimi went up to recruit Colm anyway.

Yes, ofcourse you did these things on purpose. I'm asking why you did them. Neimi can attack the upper wall and still reach Colm on turn 2. Why didn't you use her to break the wall on turn 1?

Dude, I'm training the guy. I could've also made all my units go north and left Ross to attack the Brigand. I didn't hurt efficiency.

I'm not saying Ross shouldn't have attacked. I'm saying that had you broken the wall, as you very well could have, someone else could've attacked in addition to Ross.

The main point was making Seth a weakener.

Obviously. It also wasted his first turn and halved his Skl, giving him higher odds to miss, which indeed happened twice during the chapter. I realize that you wanted Seth to not one-round the enemies. You need to realize that this hurt your efficiency.

Gaining CEXP. Sheesh.

Or you could've moved someone else to get attacked by the Brigand on enemy phase, someone who would've put some actual damage on it. Last I checked, reducing your combat efficiency to ensure that you maximize your Exp gains was not the definition of efficient play. Much the opposite. Efficiency is defined as low turn counts, not high Exp gains.

Yes, you got Ross to a higher level on your game. You also freely admitted that you had higher turncounts, when efficient play entails lower turncounts. How can you ignore this?

Look, quit strawmaning my argument. I didn't want Seth to pulverize a Brigand and waste the CEXP that I could've gotten. By doing so, I could've at least plopped his HP low enough SO SLIM LANCE!VANESSA CAN FINISH HIM OFF!!!

Jesus Christ are you stupid or something?

Quit strawmaning, or rather, stop addressing your post? Am I supposed to just accept your opinion as an absolute truth, without questioning it? If you didn't want me to address what you wrote, then you shouldn't have posted it.

[grandjackal]

Ofcourse you did it on purpose. The point is that it lowered your efficiency.

Says the man who not only posted a video of taking the long way around for the same chapter, but now defending Neimi it appears despite the fact that she has the same might as base Ross with a hatchet. If Ross had gotten his 2 levels on average, he would actually be a better chipper than Neimi. Say it won't happen and I'll say that by your logic even just one level, Ross will be a better chipper.

It doesn't imply that. And it doesn't imply that you were taking less turns than that, either.

Regardless, I wasn't slow.

I assumed you were taking 10-15 turns, because Ross hitting L10 by the end of Ch 4 if you take only 7 turns per chap doesn't make any sense. If you took 21 turns between Ch 2, 3 and 4, then Ross hitting something on each and every turn results in 630 Exp gained, putting him at L7. A kill is about +20 Exp over a hit, so in order to make it to 900 Exp, he'd have to kill something on 11 of those 21 turns, and hit something on every single one of the remaining 10 turns.

There's only 37 enemies in Ch 2-4 and you have about 9 units on the field, so if you split those kills evenly, each unit gets 4-5. Thus, how would you justify Ross getting 11 kills when he's the worst fighter you have?

Or, more likely, you could've been taking longer than 7 turns per chap.

Or maybe you just can't use Ross efficiently.

So you're basically saying that you're right and you don't need to explain why. Maybe you think that's a good argument, but personally, I don't find it very convincing. Again, do you have any serious logic or evidence to support your claims?

That's not me playing. You'll notice that those vids were uploaded over a year ago. It's just some random guy's playthrough I found. The point is that the videos clearly show Ross gaining 61 Exp for a kill and then 32 for a hit, not 70 and 37.

Well then clearly I have a busted cartridge, which is weird. How is it me and Colonel got the same results, and yet...

Averages aren't absolute. FE8 has no fixed mode. If Ross and Gilliam are both L5, then the odds that either Ross still has 3 Spd, or Gilliam has 4 Spd, are about 47%. Almost half; those odds are definitely too big to be ignored.

As if there wasn't more proof you're a dingus, you haven't even taken into account leveling speed, OR Gilliam's level! Gilliam starts at level 4, his chances are only 30% due growth. Ross at level 5 on average has 4 speed, so he's far more likely to have speed on account of the fact he gets to level 5 faster, and has far more chances of landing said speed. Both at level 5? By your logic, your Gilliam with have 4 speed, and my Ross will have 8 on equal levels. I could probably double Bonewalkers with that. No matter what, Ross will always have more speed than Gilliam. Hell, I could double zombies with an iron axe, and Ross could just possibly ORKO them at that point (as he would then have equal strength to base Garcia, and you know how he murders zombies).

I bet with the Hatchet, he has more accuracy countering Mogals as well.

More than 6 Bonewalkers? No.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3r3UzlLZU8

The lance bonewalkers are the reinforcements that come in on the right edge of the map. They're not even on the map initially, so they're not going to reach your group before you reach them. Ross takes 3-4 turns to get all the way over there, while Seth, Franz and Artur (with his better starting position) can all get over there in just 1-2 turns, and there's no reason to have them holding back and leaving the enemies alive so that Ross can show up 2 turns later and chip at them.

Because obviously they don't move. *rolls eyes*, everyone will meet up with the bonewalkers on the same turn. This map is very tiny.

You are right though, I have no reason to hold my guys back. Once most of the enemies north of the river are taken care of, they can swim down and take care of the rest along with the entombed, while Ross can go back to the corner where the zombie reinforcements appear, and help take them out with Garcia, building their support along the way.

Don't know what Gilliam has to do with anything.

You're the one who brought him up! Do you have some rare condition where you can write, but you can't read what you just wrote down?

Putting words into the other guy's mouth and then refusing to quote where he actually said those things? Once again, not a very convincing argument. "Everyone thinks you're wrong" doesn't qualify as a logical argument, either.

Yes it does, because it means something is obviously wrong with your argument.

And seriously, anyone could come up right now and tell you that most of your argument is "use high tiers anyways". High tiers are not always assumed to be played.

Saying this yet again:

Consider this: Not counting bosses since Ross basically never has a shot at killing those (usually Seth's job), there's only 56 enemies in all of Ch 2-5 combined. Whereas you have 8-9 units on the field in these chaps. Splitting the kills evenly, each unit gets 6-7 kills, so even if Ross got 100 Exp for a kill he would not reach L10, and he doesn't get 100 for a kill, he gets like 60 starting off, which decreases with every level he gains. Yeah, he gets some more just from hitting, but also keep in mind that in reality he's getting less kills than that as he sucks at killing things, so it comes out to be about the same (matches up with my experiences, for sure--he finished Ch 5 having gained nearly 6 levels).

Your argument seems to imply no one leaves anything at low enough health to allow Ross to actually kill something, let alone the fact he could actually kill his own things at least by chapter 4. Eirika could easily (on top of that, Ross could also chip and let Eirika then cleanly kill an enemy without having to resort to crit). Garcia can hit pretty damn hard. Seth with Gilliam rescued.

1x Brigand Level 3 (Iron Axe): 24 HP, 15 Atk, 5 AS, 77 Hit, 10 Avo, 4 Def, 1 Res, 0 Crit

1x Brigand Level 2 (Iron Axe): 22 HP, 15 Atk, 6 AS, 77 Hit, 12 Avo, 4 Def, 0 Res, 0 Crit**

1x Brigand Level 3 (Iron Axe): 24 HP, 15 Atk, 6 AS, 77 Hit, 12 Avo, 3 Def, 1 Res, 0 Crit

1x Brigand Level 2 (Iron Axe): 22 HP, 14 Atk, 6 AS, 79 Hit, 12 Avo, 4 Def, 0 Res, 1 Crit

Garcia has 16 Mt at base with his iron axe. He leaves them low enough for Ross to smack down. Nevermind others are capable of leaving other brigands down low enough for Ross due to doubling (Eirika, she can leave them with low enough health easily enough), hitting hard twice (Franz), what have you. Ross can easily finish off, and leave these "superior fighters" to put their superior fighting to other enemies. I'm sure you'll pull the "but anyone can finish them off", and I'll say precisely. Ross then is no better than any other aside from better accuracy due to Hatchet's better hit and lack of WTD since your only other option is Javelins.

So he can chip to reduce the need of wasting superior offense on simple finishing, be it the start or the actual finish. This is an absolute positive, because Ross is forced regardless. You can't not use him for better efficiency, and there's no reason we shouldn't.

---

Also consider turncounts. My total turncount for these 4 chaps was 27 turns, but I'm gonna subtract two for RNG bullshit/holding back with Seth. If Ross gets ~30 Exp for a hit, then even if he had managed to hit something on each and every one of those 25 turns, he would gain only 750 Exp. Not enough to reach L10. Yeah, there will be turns when he kills, but there's also gonna be turns where he doesn't hit anything at all. I mean, you're talking about giving him 900 Exp by the end of Ch 5. I'm gonna say that you either went out of your way to give Ross more kills than he would otherwise have gotten, or spent unnecessary additional turns which allowed him to get more hits in. I don't know how you're coming up with 10-15 turns on these chaps, it's FE8, enemy density is low and the maps are small and straightforward.

---

Because we need Seth to solo the map to go just as fast. Please spare me. Seth is great, but the enemies suck. Ross can be exposed just fine, it's not like he's in sheer danger. The maps are practically built in his favor. Then in chapter 4, he is by average level 5, of which he can easily work combat on his own for these zombies. Considering then 2 kills and 3 hits is 2 levels, it would mean he needs 5 kills and 8 hits to level. Or, 6 kills and 5 hits. Or 7 kills and 3 hits. This is also implying he got 0 kills. Given that, he would only need 4 kills to be there on top of that. Giving someone a kill is only really a sin when they don't put it to good use, and his leveling speed is putting it to better use than Gilliam barely improving at all. So unless you're saying Gilliam is forever a better combat unit than Ross and thus deserves always the kill exp over Ross, I'd have to think you're saying "Ross doesn't deserve kills ever just because I said so", when clearly there are many opportunities he can nab kills, especially his own at times (around chapter 4 most likely).

And something else to think about……

Ch 15 is what people usually cite as promotion time. For Franz to hit L20 by then, he needs to gain ~1.35 levels per chapter (19 levels in 14 chapters). So, assuming 1.35 levels per chapter to be the growth rate of our average unit, consider this:

Ross's Exp gains for killing are a little under 2 times as high as everyone else's. At L1 he gains ~61 Exp for a kill, while at L8 or 9 he's getting ~49. About 55 Exp per kill on average. While Franz gains ~30. So Ross should be growing at about twice the rate of all your other units, correct?

No, only if he had decent combat, which he doesn't. He's less powerful and less durable than your other units. He won't be able to get as many rounds of combat in, and he certainly won't be able to get as many kills in. He has no enemy phase and he's like 4-5RKO'ing while others are 3RKO'ing at worst (often doing better than that). So while his Exp gains are higher, the amount of action he sees and the amount of kills he gets are also lower.

You said on your game, Ross was tier 1 by Ch 5. That means he gained 9 levels in 3 chapters; his average levelling rate was 3 levels per chapter. But if 1.35 levels per chap is the average growth rate, then even if Ross was growing twice as fast as everyone else, his growth rate would only be 2.7. And as I just said, he's not, in fact, growing twice as fast as your other units; he’s bad at actually getting the kills and hits necessary to gain Exp.

If he's just growing 1.5 times faster than everyone else (not sure about that, but definitely more reasonable than twice as fast), then his growth rate is about 2 levels per chap. Not nearly fast enough to reach L10 by the end of Ch 4. For him to do that, as you’re suggesting, his growth rate would be over twice as high as that of the average unit, which obviously can’t be justified when his Exp gains aren’t quite twice as high and his combat is balls.

None of this has gotten any kind of a direct response.

It's been addressed, as your argument is mainly "let's never give Ross kills", when there are clear opportune times he could nab them. I'm using Ross, got him to Pirate by Serafew, and in my playthrough I got Franz promoted by chapter 13. Everyone else is pretty damn average level of around 18 or so. Say I held Seth back, I'll have you know he's level 7. I've held no one back, and I've not slouched in the least. If only I could take a screenshot of my game for a turn count of each chapter, and yet I do not have a camera...

I agree, Tethys doesn't care about the bonuses as much as combat unit would. Again, Gerik cares that her support is so much faster than anyone else's. He's good, but he's not invincible.

Despite the fact that Innes is a Sniper, the enemies are quite capable of attacking him. Still, you're right about this, I'll admit; he doesn't care about defenses as much as a melee unit like Ross.

Again, it's not helping when rarely she's around to give a bonus anyways. Just A with Saleh, it'll save you time and worry. I'd rather glue Gerik to Saleh than Tethys on the basis that Saleh needs nowhere near the amount of babysitting Tethys does.

Oh, so Gerik's not invincible? Well guess who's healing Gerik? Certainly ain't Tethys...

Since you seem to admit that Innes and Gerik supporting is a waste of both their time, it can only mean one person is fit for the job of supporting Gerik...

Edited September 7, 2009 by Kuja

[Colonel M]

*Facepalm*. Let's re-hash this... very carefully. I did this... on puprose. Neimi went up to recruit Colm anyway.

Yes, ofcourse you did these things on purpose. I'm asking why you did them. Neimi can attack the upper wall and still reach Colm on turn 2. Why didn't you use her to break the wall on turn 1?

I told you did I not?

Neimi went up to recruit Colm anyway

And once again I'll say it once more: Neimi didn't have enough power to break the wall on Turn 1 anyway.

Dude, I'm training the guy. I could've also made all my units go north and left Ross to attack the Brigand. I didn't hurt efficiency.

I'm not saying Ross shouldn't have attacked. I'm saying that had you broken the wall, as you very well could have, someone else could've attacked in addition to Ross.

That's dodging the point. Ross attacked because he was being used and I was limited on options. He was already chipping away and with the Hand Axe I could've made it a 3RKO instead and simply made sure the wall broke. I'll rehash this one more time: I couldn't.

The main point was making Seth a weakener.

Obviously. It also wasted his first turn and halved his Skl, giving him higher odds to miss, which indeed happened twice during the chapter. I realize that you wanted Seth to not one-round the enemies. You need to realize that this hurt your efficiency.

Dude, are you just going to say shit out of your ass? Once again I was perfectly aware of this.

And boohoo, I missed a 94% chance on an enemy. No use crying over spilled milk.

Gaining CEXP. Sheesh.

Or you could've moved someone else to get attacked by the Brigand on enemy phase, someone who would've put some actual damage on it. Last I checked, reducing your combat efficiency to ensure that you maximize your Exp gains was not the definition of efficient play. Much the opposite. Efficiency is defined as low turn counts, not high Exp gains.

It isn't defined as anything from what I've known. Neither was it bulleting a chapter nor EXP gains. So I'm considered guilty because of me trying to help Vanessa, who actually was the one that dragged me in turn counts in C3?

Yes, you got Ross to a higher level on your game. You also freely admitted that you had higher turncounts, when efficient play entails lower turncounts. How can you ignore this?

Again, it doesn't mean bullet train through the game. It was ALSO VANESSA WHO SLOWED ME DOWN IN C3! How many times will I have to repeat this before it hits your thick skull?

Look, quit strawmaning my argument. I didn't want Seth to pulverize a Brigand and waste the CEXP that I could've gotten. By doing so, I could've at least plopped his HP low enough SO SLIM LANCE!VANESSA CAN FINISH HIM OFF!!!

Jesus Christ are you stupid or something?

Quit strawmaning, or rather, stop addressing your post? Am I supposed to just accept your opinion as an absolute truth, without questioning it? If you didn't want me to address what you wrote, then you shouldn't have posted it.

I posted it to give a rough guideline, not for someone to blatantly ignore the entire point (which you have it seems since you never responded to ANYTHING else about it) and simply nitpick the dumbest crap ever (Seth rescuing a unit, not breaking a wall). Allow me to say this -one more time-:

I also could've went north and just left Ross against that one Brigand. Then what?

---

Also saying Ephraim Cormag > Colm. Eirika Cormag has pretty good AS after early promotion and stays solid throughout. Colm doesn't have terribad combat, but it is slightly hindered by the low Sword rank. Also I'm assuming Wyvern Knight before anyone asks "Wyvern Lord?". Though I guess he could use that if he waited a bit.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

In other news, Colm needs to drop. Here's why.

20/1 Colm B Moulder

33 HP, 12+2 Str, 12 Skill, 20 Speed, 16 Luck, 9+2 Def, 6+2 Res

32+5 Acc, 56+5 avoid, 6+5 Crit

17/1 Assassin Joshua A Natasha, B Artur

36 HP, 13+2 Str, 20 Skill, 20 Speed, 10 Luck, 9+2 Def, 6+2 Res

45+25 hit, 45+15 avoid, 10+15 crit

So Josh has a 3 HP, 1 Str, 33 hit, 14 crit lead to Colm's...1 avoid. On top of this, Josh has better combat parameter growths than Colm, while Colm just grows meaningless amounts of speed and luck. Josh isn't a slouch when it comes to speed anyways. Hell, if I waited to level 20, Josh would have +2 HP, +1 Str, Luck, Def and Res on top of that, so then he would be beating Colm everywhere and Colm doesn't even have an avoid lead anymore. On top of this, Joshua has more Con.

You might be saying "Why the fuck did you make Josh an assassin?". Well, I recall Vykan back in a who goes what class topic that really, swordmaster and Assassin are not far off in use. If I can find the post, I'll show it.

BUT COLM HAS ROGUE!

May I say it's an utter waste promoting Colm with this in mind? This implies we're using him (and we kinda are, lolGilliam and Neimi earlygame). He will gain speed. Tirado's chapter, he can steal a lockpick from the thief. In his joining chapter, him picking door locks is pointless due to breaking walls. I recall we get 2 chest keys as well, so at worst he's using up 2 lockpicks+1 from the door at his joining time. Since this would mean he's going north, he will have used 1 more pick on the chest (since an enemy drops a door key), and then he goes left afterwards to get the last two chests. This means he has 8+15 lockpick uses. That's 23 uses. Do tell how quickly we'll be burning through 23 uses, especially since enemies in some of these lock-heavy chapters drop keys. This makes promoting hi to Rogue utterly pointless, since we get more than enough lockpicks anyways. Since going assassin is clearly inferior to Joshua as one, Joshua effectively replaces Colm in all uses.

JOSH HAS COMPETITION FOR THE HERO CREST!

Seriously? No he doesn't. If anything, Colm has to compete with Ross, of which I could get something like this. Especially since I have to wait till Colm's level 20 to get something more than Rennac with more of a backswing (seriously, they're awfully close durably otherwise).

Ross level 16/1 Berserker

37 HP, 20 Str, 11 Skill, 12 Speed, 17 Luck, 12 Def, 6 Res

30 hit, 41 avoid, 20 crit

This is enough strength to pop mages in one shot (mages generally have 22-24 HP in Carlyle's chapter, with 5 Def, he's doing it even with an iron axe), and 12 Speed is enough to double the general AS of 8 speed. On top of this, I could have an A with Garcia. Hell, by Carlyle's chapter he could have a C with Gerik. Given that, he would have...

+3 ATK, 17 hit, 20 avoid, 20 crit

With an iron axe, I'd have a bonecrushing might of 31 ATK. Colm couldn't compare even with holy shit you gotta be kidding me ADHULMA. Ross is rocking the same might of an iron axe what Colm needs the legendary sword itself to do. I could just assume even if Colm is doubling anyways, Ross would still be going more damage. Also note that Ross also has a choice of ranged weaponry.

Joshua's competition? LolGarcia, and Gerik is more than willing to wait since he's captain killface anyways. He wouldn't mind a few fast level ups anyways.

So for you all saying that Colm's in high for "great offense" when truth is, his great offense is absolute bollucks. Joshua has a grand total of 6 more HP, 4 more Str, 9 more skill (4 more crit), 4 (8 more avoid, -1 as Colm actually has a 1 point luck lead, lol) more speed, 2 more defense and 1 more resistance. Colm needs 8 levels to catch up to HP, 10 levels for Str, needs to be 20/6 to get that sort of skill, 7 levels for speed, 8 levels for defense, and 5 levels for resistance. Joshua also has more Con (Iron Blade, Steel Sword), and C Swords to Colm's E (meaning Josh can use steel, iron blade and killer edge for a good while before Colm can, and can use the Silver Sword in Tirado's chapter before Colm).

On top of Colm promoting, it's useless. He might as well be discarded at this point. Josh can fulfill the treasure picking needs from the time they'd promote and is a better fighter anyways basically forever, and the only reason to promote Colm is for Rogue. Since we got Rennac/enough picks to go anyways, and Ross can arguably use the Ocean Seal better, promoting Colm is pointless, as otherwise he'd just be an incredibly shitty assassin. All we get at promotion is Rennac with a bit more oomph. His leads over Rennac at 20/1 are 6 more HP, 2 more Str and 11 more luck. Not exactly a COMPLETE roflstomp for someone who supposedly "sucks".

So all Colm really has is earlygame thief utility. After that...Why use him outside of chapter 9 Ephraim?

Well either way, I should explain teh assassin deal. Thins is even at max skill and supports, he's most likely only ever gonna have 45 max crit opposed to 30 as an assassin. With Killer edges, this is 75 to 60. Most of the time, a crit is going to kill someone regardless. His chances are still pretty high anyways.

Now here's the thing. There are some enemies of which he just won't flat out kill, sometimes even with a double crit. I can't give raw statistics, but I garuntee that Cyclopses and dracozombies will not stand for any of his shit. For most of the game otherwise on human enemies, he could just use silver or something or other. Either way, he'll probably ORKO regardless, or his crit chances are high regardless. But these two enemy types show an actual difference, as they actually are exceedingly tough. One might actually have trouble here. Would you rather risk attempting 2 crits which might not even kill anyways, or have a chance to ORKO no matter what, sometimes on the first strike as to even avoid a counter?

Edited September 8, 2009 by Kuja

[Colonel M]

Erm... nice post and all but... he's just minor in combat. His major is thieving. >_>;

(And as I said, Assassin!Joshua is a terrible idea).

[grandjackal]

I find 15 crit when you have sizeable amount of crit already rather meh when the guy's gonna be using killer edges anyways.

Problem is his combat is in fact miserable. Only ones with worse offense are lollatecoming trainees, Marissa and Rennac (Rennac isn't even that far behind). He shouldn't be in top for the sole purpose of earlygame thieving, especially since later he is so easily replaceable and starts one of your worst combat units anyways.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Kuja

[Florete]

But what's the value of going Assassin anyway? Using the stats you posted:

17/1 Assassin Joshua A Natasha, B Artur

36 HP, 13+2 Str, 20 Skill, 20 Speed, 10 Luck, 9+2 Def, 6+2 Res

45+25 hit, 45+15 avoid, 10+15 crit

25 crit. With a Killing Edge, that's 55. As a Swordmaster, that's 70. That's a noticeable difference. With the 55, that's ~80% to crit in two hits. With the 70, it's ~91%. It's like going from "pretty often" to "almost all the time." Take him away from his supporters or give him a different weapon and the difference is more noticeable. Like, with a Killing Edge but no supporters in range, it becomes 40 crit vs. 55, or 64% vs. 80% in two hits respectively. Are Lockpicks and Lethality really worth so much that you'd give that up? Or, more like just Lockpicks, because it's easy to see that 15 crit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1/2 crit% skill when both will kill anyway.

SM promotion bonuses are also much, much better. It's 2 HP, 1 Str, 1 Con, and 40 WEXP vs. 1 Res. Winner? The WEXP helps get another 5 crit even faster.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[grandjackal]

But what's the value of going Assassin anyway? Using the stats you posted:

17/1 Assassin Joshua A Natasha, B Artur

36 HP, 13+2 Str, 20 Skill, 20 Speed, 10 Luck, 9+2 Def, 6+2 Res

45+25 hit, 45+15 avoid, 10+15 crit

25 crit. With a Killing Edge, that's 55. As a Swordmaster, that's 70. That's a noticeable difference. With the 55, that's ~80% to crit in two hits. With the 70, it's ~91%. It's like going from "pretty often" to "almost all the time." Take him away from his supporters or give him a different weapon and the difference is more noticeable. Like, with a Killing Edge but no supporters in range, it becomes 40 crit vs. 55, or 64% vs. 80% in two hits respectively. Are Lockpicks and Lethality really worth so much that you'd give that up? Or, more like just Lockpicks, because it's easy to see that 15 crit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1/2 crit% skill when both will kill anyway.

It is later on when he has high crit anyways. Access to higher power weapons no less, gonna be using killer edges anyways, I don't see what's so important about it. I'd find lethality more important for later when enemies too tough for even swordmasters start to show up.

[Florete]

But what's the value of going Assassin anyway? Using the stats you posted:

17/1 Assassin Joshua A Natasha, B Artur

36 HP, 13+2 Str, 20 Skill, 20 Speed, 10 Luck, 9+2 Def, 6+2 Res

45+25 hit, 45+15 avoid, 10+15 crit

25 crit. With a Killing Edge, that's 55. As a Swordmaster, that's 70. That's a noticeable difference. With the 55, that's ~80% to crit in two hits. With the 70, it's ~91%. It's like going from "pretty often" to "almost all the time." Take him away from his supporters or give him a different weapon and the difference is more noticeable. Like, with a Killing Edge but no supporters in range, it becomes 40 crit vs. 55, or 64% vs. 80% in two hits respectively. Are Lockpicks and Lethality really worth so much that you'd give that up? Or, more like just Lockpicks, because it's easy to see that 15 crit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1/2 crit% skill when both will kill anyway.

It is later on when he has high crit anyways. Access to higher power weapons no less, gonna be using killer edges anyways, I don't see what's so important about it. I'd find lethality more important for later when enemies too tough for even swordmasters start to show up.

You don't see how 15 crit helps? Also, in order for Lethality to mean anything (or whatever it's called in this game), you'd have to show that there are enemies he can't 4HKO.

Also, I think you missed this:

SM promotion bonuses are also much, much better. It's 2 HP, 1 Str, 1 Con, and 40 WEXP vs. 1 Res. Winner? The WEXP helps get another 5 crit even faster.

[grandjackal]

Cyclops, Dracozombies, anything he 4HKOs that he wants devestated immediately to avoid the counter. Before you pull out Adhulma, may I remind you there are others to have S sword rank, so Joshua is not the soul user of it. This lets someone who can't ORKO these certain beasts also ORKO them just the same. Nothing I can show with stats unfortunately...

As for such boosts, 1 STR and Con are for the most part negligeable. He has sheer speed as is, he won't miss 1 speed. 1 Str is also negligeable if you're ORKOing anyways with higher rank weapons.

So it's 2 HP vs 1 Res. I think I could care less about both really. 40 WEXP I would care about if he couldn't get it to S rank quick enough anyways.

[Colonel M]

I'd rather stick to Swordmaster crits than bank on an unreliable skill that only activates half of the critical performed.

[grandjackal]

I'd rather have a skill when crit is high anyways, and most of the time we're easy killing anyways.