Getting a Tier List on this bad boy

[Colonel M]

A shortage of one promo item can be fixed by the Ch 15 Master Seal. If there's only one unit who's missing an item, then that's no problem, since they can just use the Seal.

If we have shortages on two fronts, though (in this case it would be Colm/Ross and the Cavaliers), then you can't fix both problems anymore, and "just use the master seal" is no longer a good excuse.

The problem pinpoints back to it would virtually be an issue for everyone, in that case, to promote. However, my argument is stating that in comparison between a unit that is going to use the same thing then it should be assumed both get it anyway.

If he'd prefer to promote immediately, then yeah, having him wait is a negative.

Gerik has 13 Spd at base. I don't think he's going to have many problems waiting.

Seth has better things to do. Namely, Eirika and Franz, and he's already a tough support partner, so Garcia already being down a few spots on his list is pretty bad news.

How so? Franz, okay. Eirika though it's a marginal issue. First off, Eirika could go "poof". Then, the difference isn't that big anyway. The only thing is being a slower support, which is relavant, but it isn't slow as molases like Natasha and Cormag who start at 0.

Dozla? Perhaps. But if you use Dozla, that's just more competition for Garm, and the support is late anyways.

B is what we're looking for at most. Besides, there's still other weapons than "just Garm".

To Garcia's favor? What's in Garcia's favor here?

How (so far) it's difficult to reach the assumption of 20/1 units by C15.

Thing is, when discussing Joshua, it's only a problem if you assume that Garcia's also in play. But if Garcia's not worth using in the first place, then that's not much of an issue. Ofcourse right now it works both ways since Joshua and Garcia are basically in the same place, but Joshua's position looks like it's in question currently (Mekkah says he moved Joshua down because of what smash said, but smash says he'd like Joshua around the bottom of High).

I dunno, until then it's relevant but I have some doubts on Josh being High Tier myself. Some, at least.

If they're not scoring OHKOs, then how are they helping his case? I'm pretty sure he can 2HKO Paladins with the Killer Axe anyways, not sure about GKs.

The point of rising Garcia was if 2RKOes were relevant anyway. It's fairly subjective in the first place since no one is OHKOing them, but I have doubts of ORKOes as well.

Eh? No idea what you mean, but......

A random sample of the Valks has 46 Avo (17 Spd + 12 Lck). 23 Garcia has 16.2 Skl and 10.2 Lck. (16.2 * 2) + (10.2 / 2) + 60 - 46 = 51.5 displayed hit.

Shit, I forgot the Luck formula was Luck/2. *Smashes head on desk*. My mistake then.

Still over half the enemies? It's 53%. Over half by 3%. Don't try to make it sound like more than what it is. Half the enemies is far less than adequate.

You're making it sound like that it holds no relevance whatsoever. It does hold relevance, this is still at least half, if not more, of the enemies that are doubled by those AS numbers. Garcia isn't far off from them either.

Some of those hatch? 1-2 of them, maybe, and the Gorgons have decent Spd (well, decent in the sense that Duessel's 12 Spd doesn't consistently double) anyways, so letting more of them hatch is probably going to actually decrease his overall doubling percentages.

How about 13? Garcia reaches this by 20/3 at least.

Silver Blade has 14 Mt. It's by far the most powerful buyable weapon, until the other Silvers become buyable after Ch 19, but ofcourse the game is basically over at that point anyways. Very nice for units who have too much Spd already but sorely want more Atk. Joshua w/ Silver Blade can 2HKO Ch 15's Cavaliers as early as L13-14 and still double them despite the 5 AS loss; he can't consistently 2HKO them with any other buyable weapon, including the Killing Edge, even at L21.

What I'm harping on is why include BOTH on a person? I'm pretty sure it's fair to give them one or the other (this being the Silver Blades).

Buy Killers later at half price? Sure, you can buy them later. Buying them now is still better.

You're dodging the point. If we aren't in desperate need of such weapons, then we can wait a bit. I admit buying them now is relevant, but having 1 for each user is sufficient.

Garcia > Innes? Write something about it. You've got to post something before the change be justified.

I thought this would be fairly obvious but fine fine. Garcia has earlygame, which is an auto-point. Supports are either a tie or lean slightly toward either way. Garcia gives beneficial boosts that aren't one-sided though Innes does have some supporters that don't mind him much or are too low like Garcia's. Then, taking a look at those AS numbers that's when Garcia wins or ties with Innes (since Garcia has more Atk) and I have doubts that Innes is ORKOing promoted enemies even if he had enough AS to double them. Not to mention the capability of countering on the Enemy Phase is a seal of approval for Garcia.

...Not seeing much of a way Innes would beat him to be honest.

[Scarlet]

Had to take out some of the quotes Kuja quoted because SF yelled at me for having too many quote boxes in my post. Geez.

You gave him a speed wing -_-;; Ross got nothing. The Speedwing is a problem, because Gilliam would like a word with him. In fact, so would Deussal.

I already explained why Dozla gets a Speedwing (compensation for Ross' promotion). Gilliam can't draw much if any use out of it before promotion except for maybe avoiding getting doubled by a few enemies, but Gilliam's a tank, so he hardly gives a damn about whether he gets doubled or not. And Gilliam sure as hell ain't promoting at chapter 12 already, especially since using him creates massive promotion item issues if we'd like to use all of the cavaliers. Dozla's performance, on the other hand, instantly improves when giving him that speedwing.

Duessel might of course want it as well, but he joins a lot later than Dozla does, and using that Speedwing to good effect earlier >>> using it later.

Also, in case you want to counter with "But Ross hasn't even promoted yet!": this doesn't change the fact that he will be using that item to promote at some point. However, since the Speedwing instantly improves Dozla's performance without any backdraws, why should we wait to give Dozla that Speedwing until Ross promotes? It's just a coincidence that Dozla can use it earlier, so not using this advantage would be pointless.

...unless you want to argue that Ross beats Dozla for the entire game even without promoting at all?

Nevermind 2 levels and a promotion, I'd have Ross doing better anyways.

O RLY? Lv12/1 Ross is better than Lv2 Dozla? Stats plz?

Because addiing hit and crit doesn't help, and lord knows helping avoid doesn't matter. *rolls eyes* I totally forgot Dozla's support helps boost Garcia's AS, how silly of me...

Crt always helps, but it's not a game-breaking improvement in any way. As is Hit, as Garcia is actually fairly accurate anyway.

Also, where did I imply that a support with Dozla increases his AS? I didn't even mention Dozla here at all.

Also if Garcia's AS is a problem, that's another person Dozla's pissed off. Nevermind that at promotion as a hero, Garcia has 12 AS, something Dozla needs 8 levels to get...If Garcia's got speed issues, Dozla's SOL. Even a speed wing only brings him to 11. At this point, I'd be ready to consider the wing on him a waste. Level 20/1 Gilliam could technically put it to better use.

But Garcia has a different way to fix his AS, which is promoting to a hero.

Also, again, this isn't about Garcia vs. Dozla, it's Ross vs. Dozla, so stop talking about how much better Garcia is than Dozla, because I never argued about Garcia and I'm not interested in doing so either.

Also, Gilliam will not be promoted at this point.

You gave Ross 10 levels in exchange for giving Dozla a redonculous 7. Dozla's not a guy who's like 4 levels above Ross, he's a full 10 and promoted.

I didn't give anyone of them any levels at all. I was talking about the Lv10 Ross vs. Base level Dozla comparison. Quit making up BS, please.

Why do with a battle axe what you can do with iron anyways? You also seem to have forgotten the avoid lead, of which is a gaping 18 above him, in 3 turns about to be 23. He's practically got 50 avoid, he'd be cutting most accurate weapons down to the 20s in hit. Even if the enemy had around 10 skill, it would be 40s at worst. With 2 RNs, this is made exponential due to real hit. Dozla can't even reduce weapon accuracy down to 50s aside from like inaccurate axes, and that's not even factoring in enemy skill.

Because BattleAxe!Dozla actually has more Atk than IronAxe!Ross?

Also, why don't you simply freaking look at the comparisons I gave you? You can see both the #RKO numbers and Display Hit the enemies will have there, and despite the fact that Ross can dodge better, Dozla still looked a lot more durable to me (also, Dozla's #RKO numbers are RNG-proof, while Ross' Avd isn't). I don't know what point an Avd lead is supposed to have if it isn't enough to make him more durable than Dozla, and it is far from being enough.

Garcia keeps getting brought up and how he sucks later, when it absolutely isn't true. He absolutely hammers Dozla. If Garcia's not worth are time, neither is Dozla. At least with Ross we get results eventually.

I am not the one who brings him up, so could you please stop that?

Yet again, this is Ross vs. Dozla, not GarciaOrWhoeverTheHellElse vs. Dozla...

It certainly makes things glide by a lot smoother. You seem to forget no one else has waterwalk aside from Ross until Dozla shows up, and that fliers are not known for flying in to do combat but rather to get stuff. I'd love to see you try to fight the pirates in the water of Port Kiris with the pegasi. I really would. The fact is that it allows him to do what fliers could do, except he is actually capable of fending for himself thanks to terrain and lack of weapon weaknesses.

I can take out the pirates there with basically anyone once they're out of the water, so who cares?

Also, he can defend himself there, while fliers don't even need to defend themselves against the pirates because they can just stay out of their attacking range. I don't see how any of this is an advantage for Ross.

As for Dozla, the only place this really implies is in Eirika's chapter where Saleh joins in the mountains. There are no mountain maps until the time Ross is well promoted anyways. On top of this, it's more constricting than useful as you don't actually have to cross the mountains to get anywhere. Spiders will be out in due time (not that Dozla would want to fight him in the mountains, he'd have under 50 hit with iron alone), gargoyles fly at you anyways, and other parts with enemies are rather wide open. Basically Dozla's mountain advantage her is only applicable for when you are purposefully having him get into the mountain to have one enemy run into him, which is a rather impractical strategy.

Even if it only is for one chapter, I don't see how Dozla can't utilize the mountains to give the Gargoyles are warm welcome. They're flying, so they get him there in no time, and since they're flying, they don't get the terrain bonus Dozla gets. Even if against no-one else (which is questionable, but w/e), he can certainly put those peaks to good use against the Gargoyles.

Dozla is 10 levels higher and promoted, you gave him bloody seven levels! It's not like Dozla's only 4 levels above him.

You also seem to somehow ignore that Dozla can see a lot more combat (and thus more EXP) than Ross can since he is a lot more durable. Also, you seem to vastly exaggerate the difference between EXP gains of promoted and unpromoted units. The differences there aren't as big in FE8 as they were in FE7 or FE6.

51 avoid reduces iron axe hit to 24. Even a guy with 10 skill only has 44, which is below 50 for 2 RNs to work with him. Every 2 attacks misses Ross. Dozla can't even reduce iron axe hit to 50 at that level, and enemy skill would pump it to around the 70s. Nevermind a Gerik support for Ross could effectively cut that avoid down to 34. Basically 2/3 shots aimed at Ross will miss, while every basically 3/4 shots will hit Dozla. Ross does laugh heartily at lances. He naturally reduces an iron lance to 24, WTD gives him 14 displayed. Dozla reduces it to 42. With 10 skill, Ross at worst sees 34 hit, Dozla's still above the 50s. Iron swords Ross reduces to 50s while Dozla's stuck in the 80s. With 10 skill, Dozla can't actually dodge a swordie. A Gerik B can actually cut all hit for Ross down to below the 50s, as these are among the most accurate weapons in the game. Basically, Ross has ways to become nigh untouchable, while Dozla needs quite a bit more help just being able to have usable dodge.

If Ross actually gets the Gerik support.

And aside from that, quit hyping Ross' Avd lead. He is better at dodging stuff, we all know that. The thing is, I don't give two shits about it because Ross may be dodgier than Dozla, but he is still far from being unhitable, and thus he can and will still take damage. Dozla can take anywhere between two to even four and more times as much hits as Ross can, so for Ross' Avd lead to matter, he'd have to be dodging twice as much attacks as Dozla when Dozla can take twice as much hits as Ross, thrice as much for thrice as much, four times as much for four times as much, etc...

And even then there'd still be the possibility for Ross to get RNG-screwed and get hit often enough to die despite lower hit chances, whereas Dozla's concrete durability lead is RNG-proof.

Dozla might be more durable, but it is sort of hard to boast when you're getting hit all the time.

This is not only an exaggeration, but also you seem to fail to realize that Ross' Avd lead isn't bloody enough to cancel out Dozla's superior concrete durability.

On top of this, Dozla is still severely overleveled, and is 7 levels above Ross. Ross is still able to level at a reasonable pace considering.

What comparison are you even talking about? Dozla cannot possibly overleveled at base level, which is the comparison that I mentioned. And later in the game, when Ross is promoted, his wins aren't going to help him out anymore, because in C18, the game is basically almost over anyway.

Ross has a 3 Str lead naturally really. What Dozla needs steel to do (along with further gimping his hit), Ross can do with iron, along with more accuracy. Why use something when I don't need to? Basically if Dozla needs steel to kill something, Ross can easily just use iron to do the same thing. This is also less risky due to more hit.

This would also mean more efficient ranged combat with hand axes, better accuracy with the killer axe. Basically with the offense lead, he doesn't need to use weapons that would hurt him otherwise.

This doesn't cancel the fact that Dozla can have the same or even better Atk than Ross by using a better weapon in any way at all. It's not like steel axes, for example, would be very expensive after all. He may have slightly less hit, but who cares? It's not like he'd miss every third attack or something.

Also, you fail to realize that Dozla being able to pull out a better weapon to match Ross' offense is indeed very relevant, because Ross can't do the same to match Dozla's durability.

Ross's avoid can cut Demon Surge to 40 hit (Gerik down to 30), and Shadowshot down to 20 (Gerik 10). Dozla on the other hand can't even get Demon Surge to below 60. Ross can basically dodge 1 of ever 2 Demon surges, while Dozla..Most certainly won't be.

Your point?

Even if Ross were to be slightly better durability-wise against gorgons, how many gorgons are there in the game? Certainly not enough to make a big enough difference to cancel out Dozla's huge lead against physical enemies.

He isn't, but the fact he's able to help get the map completed as fast as just having Seth solo it should sort of hint you in on how helpful he is.

Right, because we want to skip every chapter in the game and not even care about enemies or stealable items. (There's a stealable Energy Ring in this chapter btw.)

Also, if this were the case, we wouldn't even have bothered to rise Ross up at all, because Seth can solo the game from the prologue on, while Ross can do this at best for this one single chapter.

In other words, just forget about it. It's not relevant.

Ross could basically have them killed with a couple archers and the dark mage gone. Basically by the time your team gets down there, there is actually less in your way between your group and the boss.

The fact is that this does not speed up the completion of the chapter at all.

Of course, there'd be less enemies left at that point; however, that doesn't change the fact that people like Franz could have killed all of them with Enemy Phase counters anyway without taking more turns if you had just taken them on normally. So if anything, all this does is save us a few Javelin uses. lol awesome, what a gamebreaking achievement.

Water terrain is like having a full avoid A A support as it grants 30 avoid. Level 7 Ross has 60 avoid in the water. A steel bow would only have 10 hit before enemy skill is involved. Even the enemy had 10 skill, this would be 30 hit, and I doubt the enemy has 10 skill on archers. On top of that, let's say the archer has 8 Str. With steel this would be +2 damage with Ross's defense in mind. It would take 3 shots to kill him, but considering they have less than satisfactory hit on Ross, the chances alone are pretty damn slim. This is also negligeable damage, as he could just suck down a vulnery to get it back. Fire mages are similar, though they'd have better hit. Again though, it's negligeable damage. Then once he has some of the rabble out of the way, he can dare go on land, as few would be left to fight him. By now, your main forces are catching up, and most of the map is not a problem.

River: 0 Avd

Sea: 10 Avd

Lake: 10 Avd

Conclusion: lol, your point crumbles to dust without me even trying

Since archers and mages ignore the WT against physical weapons, Ross will see very existant hit rates from them. Him taking all of them on would be an utopic achievement. And it still wouldn't make a difference, as I said one point above.

So yeah, certainly sounds more likely than your fliers doing so. As for how much avoid this is, Colm couldn't pull similar avoid off until he was 20/3. Seth would need to be level 10 with a BB support with two avoid boosting affinities.

lol

It's constantly brought up that Garcia is garbage past earlygame. If Garcia is garbage, then Dozla doesn't deserve to see the light of day.

I am not the one who brings it up, so could you stop using it as a point against me plz?

I only questioned one single time whether Garcia is in use past earlygame, and when people said that it may happen, I no longer questioned it, but simply accepted it for the sake of this debate.

So, if you bring up Garcia > Dozla yet another time, I'll simply ignore you, because I've better things to do than waste my time with arguments that aren't even relevant to the actual debate.

You cannot be serious! Are you that stingy? Will you go that far to sandbag Ross? not give him vulneries? Nevermind these warships even packing iron ballistae are only doing 5+str damage to a level 8 Ross. To 2RKO him (blasting him out of the water as you put it), they'd need 9 Str, of which I highly doubt they have. This is if they're using hte strongest ballistae available. With a normal ballistae, they're doing -2+str damage, to 2RKO they'd need 16 Str. BOSSES don't even have that yet.

I CAN'T believe you are gangbanging over vulnery use.

Actually, I never give anyone vulneries. Must be a weird habit of mine, but it never gave me any problems. Strategies that only work with vulneries involved aren't good ones to me.

Also, I actually conceded that point to you; I merely said that it doesn't really impress me either.

It seems to have profound effects to me. The fliers also can't do it "better", they can fly better. Waterwalk has combat use, and fliers can't utilize terrain. Fliers are better at flying away from danger, Ross is better at getting his boots wet and going INTO danger, because he's more than capable of making it out alive.

10 Avd. What a gamebreaking-- ok, that joke gets old after a while.

Still, I don't really go out of my way to enter a random pool of water just to get 10 more Avd... ...especially when there's stuff like forest that does the job much better. Water usually is an obstacle that should be crossed as quickly as possible, and fliers are a lot better at that.

This point was brought to you by the man who hypes mountain use prior to Ross promoting, of which is a grand total of 1 more map where it's not even that useful anyways.

There's a big difference between "hyping" something and merely mentioning it. I think I did the latter.

(Also, I only brought it up because you hyped the waterwalk prior to Dozla.)

Your strategy for C7 seemed to suggest to skip it using Ross. Using Seth for this is more efficient, so what?

Don't you mean just as efficient? You also made a suggestion of which it might actually be more efficient with Ross.

Whatever... The point of an efficient run doesn't seem to be to skip the chapters anyway...

Are you done putting utter nonsense into my mouth even though I never said anything like that? I didn't say that they're better against the pirates or archers, I just said that saving the village is not a point for Ross because Tana, who is forced into this chapter and thus always there, can do it as well (she actually even is faster at reaching the village than Ross is despite having to avoid combat), so we'd get the Rapier anyway. Ross can kill the enemies there earlier than everyone else can, but the goal here is to kill all enemies anyway, and the main group can also kill those enemies without Ross' help (I mean, as in, if Ross or any other unit just went the regular way as well instead of going over the water) without needing more turns to finish, so this point is worthless for Ross.

Except Ross can take out most of the map on his way down anyways. Fine, Tana can get the house though her Vanessa and Ross are the ones who can get their in time/kill the pirates anyways. Now who else can do this? I only see three people, and one of them's a pirate.

What?

Tana is always on the map, so the village cannot be a point for Ross because we always get it, no matter whether Ross is used or not.

And for the last time, Ross killing the pirates on the water doesn't speed the map up in any way, and he likely won't even be able to take out the archers down below all by himself.

The fact is that none of these activities that Ross is capable of (except for combat, of course, before you start that nonsense again...) help completing the chapters any faster than you could do it without him.

So he can only contribute good as otherwise he's neutral? Sounds good to me. Why's he in lower mid?

Because all the people above him are more useful than he is?

So basically both don't give a shit with these. Why would you have Ross use a heavier weapon when they go down with iron anyways?

Ever heard about Hand Axes? Ross' Hatchet doesn't last forever, or he may not be able to ORKO them with the Hatchet but he may still want to use 1-2-range weapons against some enemies because some of them may come with Javelins.

Want a tougher enemy? Here we go.

randomBael (Sharp Claw): 26 Atk, 80 Hit, 3 Crt, 4 AS | 33 HP, 10 Avd, 8 Def, 2 Res

IronAxe!Ross ORKOs (2RKOs with heavier weapons), gets 2RKO'd at 36 DHit in return (46 with heavier weapons)

Dozla ORKOs with Steel Axe and up (leaves at 1 HP with Iron Axe), gets 3RKO'd at 54 DHit in return (turns into a 4RKO whenever Dozla's DEF increases by any amount, for example when standing on a forest or Peak)

Again, see no reason to not use iron since they'd die to it anyways. As for mountains, the thing is that if Dozla is fighting them on a mountain, chances are they are on a mountain too (unless for some damned reason you're taking that long to cross an actual mountain to fight a spider on normal ground, of which they'd just chase into the mountain after you anyways). Suddenly, Dozla's not 1RKOing with steel. The 40 avoid the mountian gives cuts steel axe Dozla down to 45 displayed hit. So there's actually a good chance Dozla's missing twice on a 2RKO. This would mean it would take him basically 2 turns to kill the damn thing.

I simply mentioned it. Whether or not he should use the possibility to place himself on a peak is a different story.

Even tougher? Look at this.

randomGargoyle (Javelin): 19 Atk, 77 Hit, 3 Crt, 7 AS | 29 HP, 15 Avd, 9 Def, 2 Res

Ross 2RKOs with any weapon, gets 4RKO'd at 23 DHit (33 when using heavier weapons; turns into a 3RKO if his DEF happens to round down)

Dozla ORKOs with any weapon, gets 8RKO'd at 41 DHit

No he is not. With a hand axe (well, these guys ARE using javelins), he can't quite 1RKO them. On top of this, this is assuming I gave the speed wing to Dozla, of which he's 3RKOing with a hand axe, of which Ross would be 2RKOing.

Can't you count or something? These dudes are using lances, so Ross and Dozla get WTA. HandAxe!Dozla with WTA has 24 Atk against them. This means 15 damage against them, which means a clean 2HKO since they only have 29 HP, or in other words, a ORKO.

And yes, this is assuming the Speedwing. What about it?

Monsters are weak. How 'bout a cavalier from C13?

randomCavalier (Steel Sword): 18 Atk, 93 Hit, 4 Crt, 7 AS | 31 HP, 18 Avd, 9 Def, 3 Res

Ross 2RKOs with any weapon at at best 81 DHit, gets 4RKO'd at 59 DHit (69 with heavier weapons; turns into a 3RKO if his DEF happens to round down)

Dozla ORKOs with Steel Axe and up at 61 DHit, gets 8RKO'd at 77 DHit

Again you just assume I gave Dozla the speed wing and I gave Ross nothing.

Ross gets his promotion item at any point of the game that he wants to use it and is above level 10. I just thought you might want to save it for later so Ross can actually profit a little while longer from his better leveling speed?

And yes, I gave Dozla the Speed Wing as a compensation for the promotion item Ross gets later. What about it?

On top of this thanks to supports, Ross has about 70 hit displayed with the Halberd (yes, this is factored with an A Garcia, he SHOULD have it now). Dozla unfortunately hovers around the 50s. Even without the support, Ross will have a better chance of hitting this guy. So Dozla needs a speedwing, Ross apparently only needs the Halberd.

You're still trying to make that Speedwing a negative for Dozla? Well, I guess if Ross doesn't ever want to use his promotion item, I can take it away again. Would that be better for you?

And yes, there's the Halberd, but Ross' hit drops to 66 with it. And you call out Dozla for having Hit issues? lol

Also, the Avd lead which you hyped to no end earlier crumbles to dust if you have Ross pull out a halberd against these dudes. In fact, if one of them happens to have an iron sword instead of a steel one, Halberd!Ross will actually get doubled by them.

Also, Dozla can use the Halberd as well, and suddenly gets two chances to OHKO those cavaliers since he doubles them with it. Cool, ain't it?

Dozla ORKOs any of these enemies. Ross doesn't. What does this mean? Exactly! Dozla has better offense than Ross at that point, which is exactly what I have said!

Yet without it, Ross actually has better offense. So Dozla needs favoritism to beat Ross without.

How is Dozla getting a Speedwing favoritism when promoting Ross isn't? Can you decide on one kind of logic instead of pulling double standards out of your ass, please?

Of course you can also give both of them a Speedwing and leave away Ross' promotion instead. If this would somehow help Ross' case, go ahead!

It's great that he doesn't even really need to. Heavier weapons are usually more inaccurate as well, so in a way it actually DOES criple Dozla's offense in the sense that he actually might miss what he's hitting. I'd take a bit of speed loss over just flat out missing far more often.

What about Hand Axes?

Also, rofl @ a loss of 10 Hit apparently crippling offense, but a loss of 5 AS and 10 Avd apparently not doing the same.

Those double standards start to get annoying.

If we agree chapters generally take 7 turns to complete, it takes 3 chapters and 4 turns for Dozla and Garcia to C. Basically Scorched Sands. Then it takes near 5 chapters, so Dozla doesn't even feel the real meat of the bonuses until the game is damn near over.

I highly doubt that the later chapters will be completed in a mere 7 turns... Heck, even C18, which is one of the shortest lategame chapters, usually takes me 8, even though I rush through it like mad to get rid of those eggs before they hatch.

So, no, I don't agree that "chapters generally take 7 turns to complete".

Also, I find it very amusing how Dozla not getting a B support with Garcia until late in the game apparently matters whereas Ross only promoting at C18 and only ever winning from there apparently does not.

Also, even if Ross had no competition for his promotion item, this doesn't change the fact that he has to use it and thus consume a big chunk of money (or call it resources). If we use Dozla instead of Ross, we don't need that promotion item, so we can spend that amount of money (or call it resources) on something else, like an upgrade item for Dozla. Even though I don't think a speedwing is an issue at all (Eirika route Duessel isn't very impressive since he comes so late, and lolGilliam. Additionally, doesn't someone else want the item Ross consumes as well, hm?), if this for some reason blazes your balls, I can as well give him a Dracoshield instead. With that much DEF, he becomes even more immortal against physical enemies than he already is, and all Ross then has to compare is a laughable little offense lead.

Taking resources from many>taking it from 1 other guy who doesn't even need it to be useful. You say Deussal isn't impressive in Eirika's route, though he starts with 12 speed, something Dozla doesn't get for 8 levels. On the other hand, I could give Deussal the wing for 14 AS. If Dozla having the same speed as Deussal in Eirika's route when he shows up is "impressive' (aren't you the backwards type), giving the wing to Deussal for 14 AS must be fucking righteous.

Aside from the fact that you didn't counter the Dracoshield argument at all:

I don't buy this bullshit. If Colm for some reason wouldn't want that Ocean Seal, you could as well just sell it and get more Killers, Physics and Silver Blades in the C14 secret shop from the money you get that way. However, Ross apparently wants to use it, so we miss out on those. It's in no way different from Dozla getting a Speedwing, except that selling the Speedwing instead would only give us 4000 gold, not 5000. So in a way, Dozla actually even consumes fewer resources as a compensation than Ross does.

Also, Duessel only shows up in C15, on the other side of the map. Chances are that the earliest point at which you could give him that speedwing would be C16, unless you want to waste a deployment slot to send a flying unit over to him merely to give him that Speedwing. Using that Speedwing earlier >>> using it later, as I said above, so Dozla getting it has a much higher priority than Eirika Duessel getting it.

Gilliam does put the wing to better use, as 20/1 he has 12 AS, while Dozla using it only gets 11 AS. This also benefits a man who is far more durable than anyone not named Deussal have offense, but he is more durable than Dozla in every single way. I am DEAD SERIOUS

20/1 Gilliam

43 HP, 18 Str (2 more than Dozla base), 13 Skill (2 more), 10 Speed (1 more, lolDozla is slower than a general), 7 Luck(3 more), 19 Defense(8 more), 9 Resistance (2 more), Swords Axes and Lances.

Oh my god, let's review. First off, Gilliam's doing with a lance what Dozla is doing with axes. He has 6 more hit. He has 1 more speed (LOL). He has 5 more avoid. 7 more defense, and 2 more resistance. On top of this he has FULL triangle for having an even better avoid, hit, and power offense. He destroys Dozla in every way possible not crit. Giving him the wing and Dozla the wing, Dozla would need to hit a speed lead is past level 9. Long damn while just to get a decimal lead.

Gilliam will not already be fucking promoted when Dozla shows up. I'm not kidding.

Oi, because every single enemy in this game is a magic user. Besides, Dozla still has a lot more HP to work with than Ross. Even if Ross has better chances to dodge those attacks, something like those insane 35 Atk Demon Surges from the Gorgons will likely just 2HKO him. Dozla will likely be able to cut it to a 3HKO.

So even if they're about the same against magic users, Dozla is godly durable against physical enemies while Ross is merely "okay".

You seem to have every physical enemy mixed up with swordies, the only possible people who could actually have relevent hit on Ross, of who wil basically never be able to miss Dozla's big fat ass.

Face it, Ross has an avoid lead too much to just ignore. It's more than just "ok"

O RLY? So what suddenly happened to all those archers, mages, monks (C14 Eirika has some), shamans, Mauthe Doogs, Baels, Mogalls, Gorgons etc.? Neither of them "can possibly have relevant hit on Ross"? Are you friggin' kidding me?

Also, even though people like swordies "will basically never miss Dozla's big fat ass", chances are that they'll hardly even scratch him. You know, concrete durability ftw and all that stuff.

Your ridiculous overhyping of Ross' Avd lead has gotten pretty old by now.

Actually, Ross having better Hit is a result of his supports. His supports aren't amplifying it, like you're implying.

Also, we all know Dozla has some minor hit issues, but he's fine as long as he's not got WTD. And we already know that Ross beats Dozla offensively some time after the latter joined, so why are you actually bringing this up yet again?

Yes, Ross actually has ways to bring his hit from similar to Dozla, despite being 10 levels lower. It's an advantage Ross has and Dozla doesn't. Compounded by hte fact that Dozla's affinity kills acc boosts. What you don't seem to get is that Dozla will miss far more often than Ross. Example, a 14 AS Merc can cut Dozla with an iron axe down to 57 hit if he uses iron, the most accurate of weapons. Ross will have about 72. Ross can fight against the weapon triangle, Dozla can't.

What you don't seem to get is that WE ALL KNOW THAT ROSS' OFFENSE IS A BIT BETTER THAN DOZLA'S, AND BE IT ONLY BECAUSE OF BETTER HIT RATES.

What you also don't seem to get is that Dozla's main advantage isn't so much his offense, but rather his awesome tankiness, which Ross has absolutely no answer to.

Read above. If Ross promotes at level 16, he'll never beat Dozla in anything.

If we give Dozla the speedwing...for some reason.

I'm tired of repeating myself. I well explained several times why Dozla getting the Speedwing is fair game. Re-read my posts if you missed it.

Also, I'm not going to bother to respond to any further "But you gave Dozla a Speedwing!" or "But Ross' Avd!". It gets on my nerves.

[Mekkah]

only responding to smash because arguing about Ross/Garcia/Dozla strikes me as 100% futile at this point

so shall we say

Kyle

Lute

Artur

Forde

Joshua

as the bottom of High? or put Joshua at the highest point in Upper Mid?

[Colonel M]

This seems like a rather awkward change, if only because characters would be jumping around to High. High would look a little big even in comparison to Upper Mid (right now it's the opposite). Though I do ask how Joshua got to where he was and perhaps the comparisons made to put him where he is before I speak further on some of it.

[grandjackal]

I never win anything T.T Bawwww-

-Anyone think Gilliam could go over Myrrh?

[Mekkah]

Only if you stop having bad nicknames and avatars.......

anything vs Myrrh is talking positive/negative utility over pretty much all game vs short neg + less short pos for like 4-5 chapters.

[CATS]

The problem pinpoints back to it would virtually be an issue for everyone, in that case, to promote. However, my argument is stating that in comparison between a unit that is going to use the same thing then it should be assumed both get it anyway.

I'm a bit confused. You're saying that, if two units want a promo item that you only ever get one of, it should be assumed that both get it anyway?

Gerik has 13 Spd at base. I don't think he's going to have many problems waiting.

Sure, he's good already. That's beside the point. The point is that he could be even better.

B is what we're looking for at most. Besides, there's still other weapons than "just Garm".

Dozla can use those other weapons, too.

You're making it sound like that it holds no relevance whatsoever. It does hold relevance, this is still at least half, if not more, of the enemies that are doubled by those AS numbers. Garcia isn't far off from them either.

Alright. What is this supposed to prove?

How about 13? Garcia reaches this by 20/3 at least.

No, 23 Garcia has 12.6 Spd, not 13, and the Gorgons have 8-9 AS. He doesn't consistently double them.

What I'm harping on is why include BOTH on a person? I'm pretty sure it's fair to give them one or the other (this being the Silver Blades).

Silver Blade has only 15 uses, so they may very well want another one of those or a Killing Edge to keep them going after the first one runs out.

Why include both? The Killing Edge still has its uses, namely, against enemies where the Silver Blade's AS loss would prevent them from doubling (enemy Mercs for example).

You're dodging the point. If we aren't in desperate need of such weapons, then we can wait a bit. I admit buying them now is relevant, but having 1 for each user is sufficient.

It doesn't matter whether we're in desperate need or not. What matters is that buying them now is better, so if buying an extra Ocean Seal for 10K is making me lose out on buying some of them now, it's affecting my efficiency.

I thought this would be fairly obvious but fine fine. Garcia has earlygame, which is an auto-point. Supports are either a tie or lean slightly toward either way. Garcia gives beneficial boosts that aren't one-sided though Innes does have some supporters that don't mind him much or are too low like Garcia's. Then, taking a look at those AS numbers that's when Garcia wins or ties with Innes (since Garcia has more Atk) and I have doubts that Innes is ORKOing promoted enemies even if he had enough AS to double them. Not to mention the capability of countering on the Enemy Phase is a seal of approval for Garcia.

Remember that Innes gets a monopoly on that Silver Bow he joins with, and his Spd basically doubles Garcia's when he first joins. I'm pretty sure Innes has much superior offense.

[grandjackal]

I'm a bit confused. You're saying that, if two units want a promo item that you only ever get one of, it should be assumed that both get it anyway?

Started with FEDS comparisons really. Think of it this way.

2 people at one time are able to use the same promotion item. Since it's assumed that high tiers are played (why bother with the rest of the list then?), it's fair to say that we won't exactly be constrained on promotion items (especially in this game with it's basically enough for everyone promotion item numbers). Thus it's more on who benefits the most the soonest, since anyone benefits from a promotion regardless. This way a comparison with another character is equalized on when they promote rather than if. So if one were to compare a hero crest character to another class, it's fair to assume it's best to promote them when it's best. However when a hero crester is against another hero crester, you could say it's decided on if you are better being promoted sooner.

Example: Maric in FEDS is assumed to get the first promotion item, as a healer he can get to level 20 the soonest and with his growths+class, benefits the most. However, there are others that could promote early as well at that time (Any healer around his time, basically Matthis and Roshe). It's an advantage they all have, but Maric benefits far greater thus why he's so high. However, I'm not garunteed to use Maric every playthrough, so Roshe and Matthis still have a chance anyways.

Sure, he's good already. That's beside the point. The point is that he could be even better.

I bet FE9 Titania needs a dracoshield too.

Why make someone go from ridiculous to ridiculous when he's already ridiculous anyways? He could care less if he waits. Gerik is THE "I don't give a shit" unit. It's not like he can't benefit from the faster leveling anyways.

Dozla can use those other weapons, too.

That much is true, though other weapons actually would give him acc issues.

Alright. What is this supposed to prove?

That Dozla has problems if he's slower than Garcia?

No, 23 Garcia has 12.6 Spd, not 13, and the Gorgons have 8-9 AS. He doesn't consistently double them.

Dozla at level 3 has 10 speed. He doesn't double them at all. Give him a wing on top of it, he's basically an inferior Garcia with a wing he doesn't deserve over some others as he doesn't necessarily put it to good use.

Silver Blade has only 15 uses, so they may very well want another one of those or a Killing Edge to keep them going after the first one runs out.

Why include both? The Killing Edge still has its uses, namely, against enemies where the Silver Blade's AS loss would prevent them from doubling (enemy Mercs for example).

Then why buy silver blades, if it's so debilitating that I need another weapon anyways that can basically do the same job apparently?

It doesn't matter whether we're in desperate need or not. What matters is that buying them now is better, so if buying an extra Ocean Seal for 10K is making me lose out on buying some of them now, it's affecting my efficiency.

We have enough apparently, why does it matter? Again, crying over spilt milk.

I pretty much give up though, considering that it seems I can't argue Dozla under Ross at this point. However...

Remember that Innes gets a monopoly on that Silver Bow he joins with, and his Spd basically doubles Garcia's when he first joins. I'm pretty sure Innes has much superior offense.

I won't get into this one, but I must ask: What level are you assuming Garcia to be here?

Speaking of promotion...

Amilia 10/10/1 Great Knight

30HP, 11 Str, 13 Skill, 15 Speed, 15 Luck, 9 Def, 9 Res

level 20/1 Paladin Forde (I know it's gimping, but bear with me).

37 HP, 13 Str, 16 Skill, 15 Speed, 11 Luck, 12 Def, 6 Res.

Might seem like a win for Forde indeed, but let's think about that. I gave Amilia 10 trainee levels and 10 unpromoted levels (I'd count 3 levels as a trainee as 3.3 for every 1 unpromoted level). Basically 13.9 levels, and I gave Forde 14. In exchange, I get something sorta similar to a still usable Forde with a better affinity. On top of this, I skipped 10 levels of Amelia sucking to be..Well, usable at least.

Sucks her Str growth sucks, but everything else is fair at least. HP is significantly better growing in Forde's direction, but Amelia's growts are pretty similar to Forde's anyways.

No I'm not trying to have her skyrocket obviously, but considering Ewan?

I dunno, really depends on how fast Amelia actually gains levels I guess...But having a mini-Forde isn't bad, right?

Edited September 13, 2009 by Kuja

[Ether]

I would guess he has him around level 9 or so,he has 8 AS around then,compared to Innes' base 15.

[grandjackal]

So that's why he's got "double" his AS...

Uhhh, may I ask you CATS as to WHY he's only level 9 this far into the game?

[_____]

Speaking of promotion...

Amilia 10/10/1 Great Knight

30HP, 11 Str, 13 Skill, 15 Speed, 15 Luck, 9 Def, 9 Res

level 20/1 Paladin Forde (I know it's gimping, but bear with me).

37 HP, 13 Str, 16 Skill, 15 Speed, 11 Luck, 12 Def, 6 Res.

Might seem like a win for Forde indeed, but let's think about that. I gave Amilia 10 trainee levels and 10 unpromoted levels (I'd count 3 levels as a trainee as 3.3 for every 1 unpromoted level). Basically 13.9 levels, and I gave Forde 14. In exchange, I get something sorta similar to a still usable Forde with a better affinity. On top of this, I skipped 10 levels of Amelia sucking to be..Well, usable at least.

Sucks her Str growth sucks, but everything else is fair at least. HP is significantly better growing in Forde's direction, but Amelia's growts are pretty similar to Forde's anyways.

No I'm not trying to have her skyrocket obviously, but considering Ewan?

I dunno, really depends on how fast Amelia actually gains levels I guess...But having a mini-Forde isn't bad, right?

Her only reliable method of attacking is with a Javelin for her Trainee levels because she is ORKO'd by everything. She has 10 ATK and 74 hit with it.

She really has no way of getting any kills ever. Ewan at least has reliable 2 range that can actually, you know, hurt something, and then promotes for staves and summoning.

[Progenitus]

only responding to smash because arguing about Ross/Garcia/Dozla strikes me as 100% futile at this point

so shall we say

Kyle

Lute

Artur

Forde

Joshua

as the bottom of High? or put Joshua at the highest point in Upper Mid?

Looks fine.

Although... there's also Natasha around the bottom of high. Don't know about her, but perhaps above Lute?

[grandjackal]

Ehhh, I knew it would get nowhere. Just having a hard time finding things to nitpick about the list. So few characters...

[Colonel M]

I'm sick of debating rather trivial things so... let's argue something that actually has relevance: Garcia > Innes.

That Silver Bow monopoly has 20 grand uses from it, which isn't saying much in the first place. Add to that he doubles virtually the same enemies (maybe slightly more, but still have major doubts of ORKOing anyway), I don't see how Innes can win it. Also, on the Garcia's Spd thing: that's still a 60% chance of rounding up. Another level (very likely) is 80% and another level (somewhat likely) is practically guaranteed on the average, thus he is doubling the Gorgons.

I would guess he has him around level 9 or so,he has 8 AS around then,compared to Innes' base 15.

Maybe if we're playing the sandbag brigade.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Colonel M

[Ether]

I'm sick of debating rather trivial things so... let's argue something that actually has relevance: Garcia > Innes.

That Silver Bow monopoly has 20 grand uses from it, which isn't saying much in the first place. Add to that he doubles virtually the same enemies (maybe slightly more, but still have major doubts of ORKOing anyway), I don't see how Innes can win it. Also, on the Garcia's Spd thing: that's still a 60% chance of rounding up. Another level (very likely) is 80% and another level (somewhat likely) is practically guaranteed on the average, thus he is doubling the Gorgons.

I would guess he has him around level 9 or so,he has 8 AS around then,compared to Innes' base 15.

Maybe if we're playing the sandbag brigade.

Hey,I'm not the one who put him at that level,I just answered Kuja's question.Stop yelling at me!

[Colonel M]

*Sigh*. Alright.

So let's just ride on the fact that he promotes by C15. Compound that he gets a level in C2, C3, 1.5 in C4 on... maybe Level 13-15?

[Ether]

I'm not really getting into the discussion.I' not too familiar with this game.I was just interjecting.As such,I have no idea what level he should be,or when he promotes.

[Colonel M]

Anyway... I really want to hear Innes's defense, because as I said: not seeing it. After the Silver Bow is gone, it's probably over.

[Dat Nick]

I dunno: Amelia has the uber EXP trainee syndrome and far more opportunities to hit something despite worse damage/hit rates with Javelin.

It MIGHT be possible for her to bypass trainee level before he does, but Ewan still has better chip so he'd probably win regardless.

[CATS]

"he doubles virtually the same enemies?" Okay, either you're seriously underestimating Innes, seriously overestimating Garcia, or both.

Reaching L20 by Ch 16, Garcia gains almost exactly 1 level per chapter (it's 1.06 repeating). To reach L20 by Ch 15 is 1.14 levels per chapter. I'm just gonna say one level per chap on average. Puts him around L12 when Innes shows up.

12 Garcia: 13.2 Str, 8.6 Spd----34.4 Hp, 7 Def, 2.2 Res, 23.4 Avo

Base Innes: 14 Str, 15 Spd----31 Hp, 10 Def, 9 Res, 44 Avo

He does not double "virtually the same enemies." Very much the opposite. Against enemies which Innes is borderline for doubling (Steel Sword Mercs; 11-12 AS), Garcia is borderline for getting doubled. Breaking out some Ch 10 enemy AS values:

Steel Lance/Javelin loldiers: 0 AS

Iron Lance loldiers: 1-2 AS

Slim Lance loldiers and Longbow Archer: 4 AS

Steel Bow Archers: 5 AS

Garcia's already got a 17% chance of not being able to double those Slim Lance guys, and a 51% chance of having less than 9 Spd and missing the Steel Bow Archers. Let's move on to enemies that don't completely fail at life.

Priest, Mages, Archers, Iron/Hand Axe Fighters and Brigands, and the boss: 6-8 AS

Garcia doubles none of that while Innes gets all of it.

Iron Sword Mercs: 12 AS

Myrmidons: 13-14 AS

Innes won't double these, but Garcia can get doubled by this stuff.

Garcia's not going to OHKO anything either, not even the mages (26 Atk required to OHKO the weakest mage I'm seeing, and Garcia's Atk w/ Steel Axe is 24.2). Silver Bow Innes however does indeed have a shot at OHKOing those Myrmidons that he can't double (28 Atk, and they have 24-25 Hp + 3-4 Def).

It's a huge difference. Garcia one-rounds Soldiers, the one Steel Axe Fighter and possibly Longbow/Steel Bow Archers, and that's it. 11 enemies (8 loldiers, 3 archers; that one fighter also has a Hand Axe which he'll probably be using instead of Steel).

Innes on the other hand one-rounds everything with few exceptions; he only misses Mercs which got 12 AS or Myrmidons which got higher end Hp/Def. I'm counting 30 enemies that Innes one-rounds, out of 38 initially on the map (compared to Garcia's 11; Innes's figure is nearly 3 times higher). Most of the enemies Innes can't one-round are Mercs, where his offense is still considerably better because he doesn't suck at hitting them. Also note that Innes needs the Silver Bow to one-round against only a few of the Myrmidons. Against the vast majority of the enemies, Innes kills reliably with just Iron/Steel. Silver Bow Innes nearly one-rounds the boss (double 18's) while Iron Axe Garcia 4HKOs with only a little over 50 displayed hit (which is why I'm only giving him Iron--anything else causes his hit to totally fail). etc

And Garcia doesn't match Innes's base Spd until L35, or in other words, basically never. He's got a pretty steep uphill battle to fight.

Edited September 14, 2009 by CATS

[Colonel M]

Erhem, I was speaking on "the unpromoted enemies" when Garcia hit Hero. I already know this shit early on.

Also, missing Enemy Phase in general is the biggest weakness to Innes here: Garcia's sure as hell reliable altogether.

Some things I had:

"Let's outline this. Assume Innes can always ORKO but Garcia 2RKOes. Player Phase, Garcia weakens a unit and Innes ORKOes. Enemy Phase Garcia kills one unit and weakens two more. Player Phase, Innes kills one more unit and Garcia weakens a third unit. Enemy Phase, Garcia kills the 3 remaning weakened units. Because most of the action is happening on the Enemy Phase, it's an advantage for Garcia thanks to have 1-2 range. Thus, he's helping effeciency with chapters such as routing and defending."

"So yes, Innes will usually double a bit more often than Garcia; however, when Garcia does double he's clearly doing more damage. Take the 20/3-5 Garcia vs. something like a Level --/7 Innes:

Innes (Silver Bow): 30 Atk

Garcia (Silver Axe): 41-42 Atk"

Though this took in place with supports, let's also look at without them and with the Killer Weapons:

Garcia: 31 Atk

Innes: 24 Atk

That's quite a gap that Garcia has here.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Colonel M

[CATS]

Or instead of Garcia weakening things on enemy phase, I put Gerik/Franz/Seth/etc in Garcia's place and those same things that Garcia was only weakening now die; meanwhile, the player phase situation stays the same. Garcia's enemy phase is only significant if he's able to accomplish something with it. And there are indeed situations where he can, but enough of these situations that he wins lategame over Innes by a greater amount than Innes wins during midgame? I rather doubt it, since Innes is raping him pretty hard for most of the mid chapters. Innes stands out as one of your best offensive units during midgame (if not the absolute best), while Garcia is never anything more than mediocre. Ch 16......

26 Innes: 16 Str, 17.3 Spd

21-22 Garcia: 19-20 Str, 12.3 Spd

Innes is generally able to avoid all counters during player phase, whereas Garcia can't avoid counters while keeping his offense halfway decent (Hand Axe is weak, inaccurate and gives no extra chance to crit). This is important when fighting the promoted enemies, as their counters hurt, and Innes maintains similar or superior offense against all of them. Here Innes is providing something unique, being able to avoid counters while still using superior weapons, and thus reducing the overall amount of counters that your army has to take. Whereas Garcia is just a "meh" melee unit at best, probably below average at this point.

Innes is the only unit who can bypass counters from 1-2 range enemies; very significant against the promoted magic enemies in this chapter, as it allows you to kill them without ever taking their painful counters (Elfire Sage with 30 MAtk? ouch, cuts off more than half of Garcia's Hp). Notably, it's not safe for Garcia to fight this chapter's Luna Druids at all, since he can get one-shotted by them (20+ crit and Mag), whereas Innes can safely one-round them from outside of both their attack range and movement range with the Longbow.

I don't see Garcia pulling out much of a decisive win at all, and after Ch 17 Nidhogg shows up, so I don't think the situation will get much better for him.

Edited September 14, 2009 by CATS

[Colonel M]

Or instead of Garcia weakening things on enemy phase, I put Gerik/Franz/Seth/etc in Garcia's place and those same things that Garcia was only weakening now die; meanwhile, the player phase situation stays the same. Garcia's enemy phase is only significant if he's able to accomplish something with it. And there are indeed situations where he can, but enough of these situations that he wins lategame over Innes by a greater amount than Innes wins during midgame? I rather doubt it, since Innes is raping him pretty hard for most of the mid chapters. Innes stands out as one of your best offensive units during midgame (if not the absolute best), while Garcia is never anything more than mediocre.

Way to miss the point. Innes can't do squat in this situation while Garcia can. Now you're just grasping at straws.

@Bolded: Care to prove this?

Ch 16......

26 Innes: 16 Str, 17.3 Spd

21-22 Garcia: 19-20 Str, 12.3 Spd

Innes is generally able to avoid all counters during player phase, whereas Garcia can't avoid counters while keeping his offense halfway decent (Hand Axe is weak, inaccurate and gives no extra chance to crit).

Oh?

Killer Bow: 25 Atk

Hand Axe: 26-27 Atk

Despite not doubling, this is still fairly relevant, nay something that wasn't being pointed out.

This is important when fighting the promoted enemies, as their counters hurt, and Innes maintains similar or superior offense against all of them. Here Innes is providing something unique, being able to avoid counters while still using superior weapons, and thus reducing the overall amount of counters that your army has to take. Whereas Garcia is just a "meh" melee unit at best, probably below average at this point.

Innes is the only unit who can bypass counters from 1-2 range enemies; very significant against the promoted magic enemies in this chapter, as it allows you to kill them without ever taking their painful counters (Elfire Sage with 30 MAtk? ouch, cuts off more than half of Garcia's Hp). Notably, it's not safe for Garcia to fight this chapter's Luna Druids at all, since he can get one-shotted by them (20+ crit and Mag), whereas Innes can safely one-round them from outside of both their attack range and movement range with the Longbow.

...Geez. Let's see. This would apply to many characters; however, having the capability of actually COUNTERING the sonuvabitches is the main point: I can take them on just by squatting him on the Enemy Phase too. Innes is barely doing something I'd call "unique" anyway. At this point we have many other units that can do this. FFS, Garcia can practically chip them well.

Luna Druids? What shit are you on? This isn't FE7 where it's relevant, this is FE8 where Luna is a complete joke. A -COMPLETE- JOKE.

I don't see Garcia pulling out much of a decisive win at all, and after Ch 17 Nidhogg shows up, so I don't think the situation will get much better for him.

Brave weapons + Garm still. But w/e.

[CATS]

Way to miss the point. Innes can't do squat in this situation while Garcia can. Now you're just grasping at straws.

What situation? Do explain yourself.

@Bolded: Care to prove this?

Franz (top of top) doesn't reach Innes's base Spd until L17 and doesn't reach his base Str until L18-19. And no one else has a monopoly on a Silver weapon.

Oh?

Killer Bow: 25 Atk

Hand Axe: 26-27 Atk

Despite not doubling, this is still fairly relevant, nay something that wasn't being pointed out.

Indeed he has a little more Atk, and as you pointed out, indeed he does not double. Innes is doing considerably more damage.

Against a Steel Sword GK with 40 Hp, 16 Def and 26 Avo, Hand Axe Garcia hits once for 10-11 damage with 55 displayed hit and 4 crit. Killer Bow Innes hits twice for 9 damage with 92 displayed hit and 38-39 crit.

If Garcia goes Hand Axe, Innes has significantly better offense. Garcia needs to use 1 range Killer weapons in order to keep up.

...Geez. Let's see. This would apply to many characters; however, having the capability of actually COUNTERING the sonuvabitches is the main point: I can take them on just by squatting him on the Enemy Phase too. Innes is barely doing something I'd call "unique" anyway. At this point we have many other units that can do this. FFS, Garcia can practically chip them well.

Countering them? Garcia has neither good offense nor good defense against them. It's better to counter them with someone who doubles so that they get two chances to crit with a killer weapon, if nothing else.

When you're fighting enemies who are only 2-3RKO'd by most PCs and have dangerous counterattacks, being able to chip them down from outside their attack range before finishing them is quite useful. Taking the example above, if Killer Bow Innes scores a crit and a hit against that GK, he reduces it to single-digit Hp and anyone else can finish it off. Using the Silver Bow, Innes reduces its Hp to 12, also low enough for other units to finish. You never need to take its counter, reducing the amount of turns your magic units need to spend healing rather than advancing or attacking.

Only a few other units can replicate this, mainly magic users, as other physical units don't have 2 range Killer/Silver weapons. Even assuming he's WT neutral, a 21-22 Gerik doubling with the Hand Axe does only 22 damage at best, leaving the GK with 18 Hp. This generally isn't enough for other physical units to finish. Garcia himself w/ the Killing Edge does 13 damage per hit.

What does Garcia have on this? All he has is that he counters, but Garcia's not even good at it, and it's not nearly as unique as what Innes has. Almost all other units can counter. There's a slew of other physical melee units who can do exactly what Garcia does, and in many cases do it better. If I remove Garcia, his spot can simply be filled with some other melee unit, as you have a surplus of those. But if you remove Innes, his role can't be so easily replicated. And then against those promoted magic enemies, he's almost completely unique. The only other unit I can think of to match Innes there would be Ranger Gerik.

Luna Druids? What shit are you on? This isn't FE7 where it's relevant, this is FE8 where Luna is a complete joke. A -COMPLETE- JOKE.

No, look at actual stats before dismissing something. Luna Druids can reach 37.41 real hit and 6-7 crit against Garcia. ~2.5% odds to get one-shotted.

[Progenitus]

I second Innes > Garcia.