Getting a Tier List on this bad boy

[Jaybee]

I third Innes > Seth/s] Garcia.

[Mekkah]

Innes (Eirika) is already above Garcia. Maybe he can be moved above Joshua though.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Mekkah

[Colonel M]

...Very well then. I can also see Innes > Joshua.

Lv 12 Joshua - 29.6 HP | 10.45 Str | 16.85 Skl | 17.85 Spd | 9.1 Luck | 6.4 Def | 3.4 Res

Iron Sword - 15 Atk, 17 AS

Steel Sword - 18 Atk, 15 AS

Base Innes - 31 HP | 14 Str | 13 Skl | 15 Spd | 14 Luck | 10 Def | 9 Res

Silver Bow - 27 Atk, 15 AS

Steel Bow - 23 Atk, 15 AS

Joshua fails to ORKO many enemies in C12 while Innes can with the Silver Bow at least, sometimes the Steel Bow (Revenants, Gargoyles, Tarvos I believe).

With humans, C13:

I'll just be kind and gives Josh +1 Str and +1 AS. He still fails to ORKO many units while Innes can with the Steel Bow at least, Silver Bow if necessary. Random Cav has 30 HP | 9 Def. It comes close with the Steel Bow (28 damage) but to compare Joshua is dropping 18 with the WT for him, 16 if against him.

And if we follow the logic of no counterattacks > counterattacks, then yeah Innes is pulling a huge lead on Joshua because he can only attack from one range.

[-Cynthia-]

Joshua is losing to Innes at jointime sure, but in a few chapters Joshua will promote and then be beating Innes offensively. For reference, 20/1 SM Joshua and --/4 Innes have the same Str, while Joshua has more AS and crit. And post promotion I would say that Joshua taking counters isn't a very big deal(his Avo is pretty high), while Innes not countering is a fairly big issue. Add in Joshua's contibution before Innes arrives and I don't really see it.

[Colonel M]

Joshua is losing to Innes at jointime sure, but in a few chapters Joshua will promote and then be beating Innes offensively. For reference, 20/1 SM Joshua and --/4 Innes have the same Str, while Joshua has more AS and crit. And post promotion I would say that Joshua taking counters isn't a very big deal(his Avo is pretty high), while Innes not countering is a fairly big issue. Add in Joshua's contibution before Innes arrives and I don't really see it.

Then this would've been solid... with Garcia. Minus a few partial things (AS). Despite that, him taking a counter literally hurts and his affinity (Wind) only will allow him partial Avoid even if he gets supports.

[-Cynthia-]

The difference is that Garcia's AS still isn't up to Innes's post promotion, whereas Joshua matches Innes in Atk (and wins due to crit since I don't think Snipers get a crit boost in this game). Basically post promo Joshua>Innes whereas post promo Garcia possibly isn't.

[grandjackal]

The difference is that Garcia's AS still isn't up to Innes's post promotion, whereas Joshua matches Innes in Atk (and wins due to crit since I don't think Snipers get a crit boost in this game). Basically post promo Joshua>Innes whereas post promo Garcia possibly isn't.

And if it is enough to double anyways?

[Colonel M]

From CATS:

"Innes is generally able to avoid all counters during player phase, whereas Garcia can't avoid counters while keeping his offense halfway decent (Hand Axe is weak, inaccurate and gives no extra chance to crit). This is important when fighting the promoted enemies, as their counters hurt, and Innes maintains similar or superior offense against all of them. Here Innes is providing something unique, being able to avoid counters while still using superior weapons, and thus reducing the overall amount of counters that your army has to take. Whereas Garcia is just a "meh" melee unit at best, probably below average at this point.

Innes is the only unit who can bypass counters from 1-2 range enemies; very significant against the promoted magic enemies in this chapter, as it allows you to kill them without ever taking their painful counters (Elfire Sage with 30 MAtk? ouch, cuts off more than half of Garcia's Hp). Notably, it's not safe for Garcia to fight this chapter's Luna Druids at all, since he can get one-shotted by them (20+ crit and Mag), whereas Innes can safely one-round them from outside of both their attack range and movement range with the Longbow."

Though emphasize on lack of 2 range for Joshua and other things.

[CATS]

I wasn't trying to argue Innes up, although I wouldn't disagree with that happening, either. I was mainly just opposing the notion of Garcia > Innes.

Innes vs Joshua is different because Joshua's offense is considerably better than Garcia's. Post-promo Joshua's counterattacks aren't among the most ineffective you have, like Garcia's are. In some cases Joshua is actually one of the better options for countering the enemies; for example, he's among your best choices to counter Warriors, as not only are they almost completely unable to hit him, but almost all units need a crit in order to kill them, and Joshua's odds of scoring that crit are among the highest you have. He's one of the best units for countering Heroes/SMs just because he's one of the very few actually able to double them.

I could see a fair case being built on either side, so I'll just stay out of this one.

Edited September 15, 2009 by CATS

[Ardan]

Before I make a fool of myself, why exactly is vanessa top tier? I know having a winged mount is pretty damn awesome but her combat seems a bit suspect for top tier, I dunno (unless combat is given very litte weight in vanessa's case).

[grandjackal]

Well, imagine if Joshua could fly, use spears, had better avoid, superior affinity, and supports that match (MOULDAH, Lute, +5 ATK and Def alone...)

Lute is fine as she can eventually get a horse to keep up, but...MOULDAH? There IS a tidbit of a problem there...

31 HP is a tad problematic though, and if Garcia's 11 defense is "not durable" apparently...

[Ardan]

Well, imagine if Joshua could fly, use spears, had better avoid, superior affinity, and supports that match (MOULDAH, Lute, +5 ATK and Def alone...)

Lute is fine as she can eventually get a horse to keep up, but...MOULDAH? There IS a tidbit of a problem there...

31 HP is a tad problematic though, and if Garcia's 11 defense is "not durable" apparently...

If that's all there is (I'm pretty sure I considered all of that) I should be able to make a solid case. I don't really consider joshua to be captiain awesome anyway, so being tagged as a suped up joshua isn't all that flattering to me lol.

[Colonel M]

What is the average durability on promoted enemies? I should've asked this earlier.

[CATS]

You can expect Hp in the upper 30's to lower 40's range and 9-10 Def on most all the physical enemies. Exceptions include:

Warriors: Hp hovering around 50.

Heroes: 13-14 Def.

Great Knights: 16-17 Def.

Generals: 19-20 Def.

Magic enemies are generally like low 30's Hp and 7-8 Def.

AS values vary greatly. The slowest are Generals with like 5-7 Spd. Most everything else has at least 10-11, Paladins lean more towards 12. Heroes are like 14-16, Swordmasters and Rangers are like 17-18. Magic enemies that get weighed down (mostly Druids) are about as fast as Generals, while those that aren't weighed down have pretty average AS (10-11), but then Ch 19's Mage Knights have AS values ranging from 13 to 16.

Edited September 15, 2009 by CATS

[Colonel M]

Are these C19 stats? What about, say, C17? Is there much difference for these guys? A 20/5 Garcia actually has quite a bit of benefit with a Speedwing now that I see this. To speak further on the matter:

Killer Axe - 33 Atk, 15 AS (w/Speedwing).

Which would ORKO quite a few of these promoted buffoons that sit on 11 AS. To show, a 20/5 Paladin!Franz has 27 Atk. With supports (A Seth) that gives him 30 and it could still miss out on some ORKOes.

Ah well, it won't change anything anyway.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Fei Mao]

Are these C19 stats? What about, say, C17? Is there much difference for these guys? A 20/5 Garcia actually has quite a bit of benefit with a Speedwing now that I see this. To speak further on the matter:

Killer Axe - 33 Atk, 15 AS (w/Speedwing).

Which would ORKO quite a few of these promoted buffoons that sit on 11 AS. To show, a 20/5 Paladin!Franz has 27 Atk. With supports (A Seth) that gives him 30 and it could still miss out on some ORKOes.

Ah well, it won't change anything anyway.

Chapter 17 Enemy Speed

<Hero>

X1 Level 4 (Brave Axe*) HP 39, 24 Atk, 102Hit, 27 Avo, 10 AS, 14 Def, 7 Res Crit 8

X1 Level 4 (Silver Axe) HP 42, 29 Atk, 107hit, 32 Avo, 13 AS, 14 Def, 8 Res Crit 8

X1 Level 4 (Silver Sword) HP 42, 28 Atk, 119hit, 36 Avo, 15 AS, 14 Def, 7 Res Crit 8

X1 Level 4 (Silver Sword) HP 41, 26 Atk, 117hit, 37 Avo, 15 AS, 11 Def, 9 ReS Crit 9

<Mage>

X1 Level 17(Elfire Guiding Ring*) HP 26, 21 Atk, 109hit, 20 Avo, 8 AS, 4 Def, 8 Res Crit 5

X1 Level 17(Elfire) HP 27, 21 Atk, 106hit, 13 Avo, 5 As, 4 Def, 9 Res Crit 5

<Sage>

X1 Level 4 (Fimbulvetr*) HP 32, 30 Atk, 105hit, 15 Avo, 6 As, 8 Def, 15Res Crit 6

<Swordmaster>

X1 Level 5 (Killing Edge) HP 39, 22 Atk, 116hit, 42 Avo, 18 As, 8 Def, 7 Res Crit 54

<Wyvern Riders>

X1 Level 16 (Slim Lance) HP 35, 20 Atk, 107hit, 6 Avo, 11 As, 13 Def, 2 Res Crit 10

X1 Level 16 (Slim Lance) HP 35, 20 Atk, 107hit, 6 Avo, 10 As, 13 Def, 2 Res Crit 10

X1 Level 16 (Slim Lance) HP 34, 19 Atk, 107hit, 6 Avo, 10 As, 13 Def, 2 Res Crit 10

X1 Level 16 (Steel Lance) HP 34, 26 Atk, 92 hit, 4 Avo, 8 As, 13 Def, 3 Res Crit 5

X1 Level 16 (Javelin) HP 34, 22 Atk, 85 hit, 6 Avo, 12 As, 14 Def, 3 Res Crit 4

<Wyvern Lord>

x1 Level 3 (Silver Lance) HP 45, 32 Atk, 99 hit, 7 Avo, 11 As, 15 Def, 5 Res Crit 5

<Berserker>

X1 Level 3 (Silver Axe Dragonshield-)HP44, 34 Atk, 100hit, 28 Avo, 12 As, 8 Def, 3 Res Crit 22

<Paladin>

X1 Level 4 (Silver Lance) HP 43, 27 Atk, 102hit, 29 Avo, 11 As, 11 Def, 8 Res Crit 6

X1 Level 4 (Silver Lance) HP 43, 27 Atk, 102hit, 31 Avo, 12 As, 12 Def, 7 Res Crit 6

<Fighter>

X1 Level 15 (Steel Axe) HP 34, 27 Atk, 82 hit, 13 Avo, 5 As, 4 Def, 3 Res Crit 4

X1 Level 15 (Steel Axe) HP 36, 25 Atk, 80 hit, 15 Avo, 6 As, 5 Def, 2 Res Crit 3

<Valkyrie>

X1 Level 4 (Lightning Elixer-) HP 31, 16 Atk, 119hit, 41 Avo, 16As, 6 Def, 19Res Crit 10

X1 Level 4 (Lightning) HP 30, 17 Atk, 118hit, 44 Avo, 17As, 7 Def, 18Res Crit 19

<Druid>

X1 Level 3 (Luna) HP 30, 22 Atk, 72 hit, 17 Avo, 5 As, 7 Def, 16Res Crit 15

X1 Level 3 (Luna) HP 30, 19 Atk, 70 hit, 15 Avo, 5 As, 7 Def, 14Res Crit 14

X1 Level 3 (Nosferatu) HP 30, 30 Atk, 93 hit, 13 Avo, 6 As, 6 Def, 16Res Crit 5

Edited September 15, 2009 by Cyas

[Colonel M]

*Gulp*.

...Nevermind me. Well, if he got the Speedwing he can double 15 enemies out of 24 enemies, which is about 62%.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[CATS]

62% after a Speedwing? No thanks.

[Colonel M]

62% after a Speedwing? No thanks.

62% of a ORKO without banking on crits.

EDIT: To give an example, a 26 Atk (about a 20/5 Joshua w/Killing Edge) is 2RKOing.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[CATS]

2RKOing what? I assume 23-24 Garcia, so w/ a Speedwing, 14-15 Spd, leaning more towards 15. Let's see......

Heroes: Despite Garcia doubling the one Brave Axe Hero, there is no "ORKO without banking on crits." 21 Str Garcia w/ Killer Axe does double 18's to him. Both need crits, and Garcia only doubles one out of the four, while Josh doubles them all with higher crit.

Mages/Sage: 2HKO'd and doubled by both.

Swordmaster: Joshua has a chance to double this guy, while Garcia has a chance to get doubled.

Wyvern Riders: Here Garcia's Atk finally makes a difference, as he's 2HKO'ing comfortably, while Joshua can miss the 2HKO. However, Joshua can still 2HKO some of them with the Silver Blade, or with the Shamshir (essentially Prf to him unless you use Marisa, iirc) has ~94% odds to critkill anyways, or just ~91% odds with a KE. And they can get 11 and 12 AS, while Garcia's Spd is 14-15, so Garcia's not consistent on doubling.

Wyvern Lord: lol, 45 Hp/15 Def. Garcia's not 2HKOing here (again double 18's). KE Josh doesn't kill even with a crit and a normal hit, but, his crit with the Lancereaver (buyable at the start of this chap) actually exceeds that of Garcia w/ Killer, so he wins anyway.

Berserker: Garcia doesn't double, Josh 2HKOs w/ Silver Blade.

Paladins: Similar to Wyvern Riders. Garcia's Atk can make the difference between a 2HKO and a 3HKO, but he's also borderline on doubling, and when Garcia can't double, Josh wins by more than Garcia wins when he can double (since even when Garcia's doubling for nearly a 100% kill rate, Joshua's still sitting at 90 something percent chance of a critkill).

Fighters: Easily killed by both.

Valks: Josh doubles, Garcia doesn't, end of story.

Druids: Same as Fighters.

Overall, I see an easy win for Joshua. And this is after giving Garcia a Speedwing.

Edited September 15, 2009 by CATS

[Mekkah]

(essentially Prf to him unless you use Marisa, iirc)

Nah, Eirika and Colm can use it. But Killing Edge is only slightly lower at crit.

[Ardan]

I thought colm can only use shamshirs if he becomes an assassin

[grandjackal]

I thought colm can only use shamshirs if he becomes an assassin

Why would you make low skill no good crit giving supports Colm into an assassin?

[Colonel M]

Eh, I wasn't suggesting over Joshua. But alright fine.

Anyway, what is the thought on Innes > Joshua? That's what I was implying beforehand (I was just thinking about the Speedwing).

EDIT: Not disagreeing to Josh > Garcia but... I'm getting 56 base Crit for Josh w/the Killing Edge (I'm not even buying into Shamshir). How is that a 90% chance of a Critkill?

Edited September 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rewjeo]

It's more like 80%.

How does Joshua win against the Wyverns? Garcia has a 100% chance to kill some of them in one rouond, whatever his crit is to kill the others in one round, and none of them can survive two rounds. Joshua has <50% chance of killing them with a lancereaver. Garcia's doing better than them. Also, we can't just say Joshua's better because he might win later on in the game. Garcia has a pretty awesome early game, and probably beats him for ~ half the time they're around.

Also, Speedwing!Garcia does more than improve his offense. It helps his durability. Their are a few enemies that could have doubled him before that don't.

I'm not saying Garcia>Joshua, but we can't just compare them for one chapter where Garcia is near his worst and Joshua his best.