Getting a Tier List on this bad boy

[Dat Nick]

it doesn't matter if you were arguing anything or not

You were acting like Ross's earlygame was even to be considered, that's lolworthy enough. There's a reason it was skipped over.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Joker

[grandjackal]

I already factored in Ross x Garcia at B at the comparison above. Doing it twice doesn't make any sense.

Also, I don't agree with "Dozla gets 1 level for every three levels Ross gets". EXP gain goes down quite a bit after Lv15 unpromoted as well, so him still gaining thrice as much EXP as Dozla is quite exaggerated.

Also, I don't buy your argument about supports. Why does Ross get Garcia, but Dozla doesn't? Granted, Ross x Garcia is much faster than Dozla x Garcia, but it's not like Garcia had anyone else to support (Seth will already be taken, lolNeimi, lolGilliam), so I don't see why Dozla can't get at least a B with him, which btw helps him a lot. B gives him +1 Atk, +1 Def, +10 Crt, +10 Avd, +5 Hit and +5 CrtEvd.

Btw, without Ross' supports, his Avd lead would be less than 10, pitted against Dozla's concrete tankiness. Even with 18 Avd less, Dozla is still a lot more durable than Ross, as I've shown above, as Ross may have more Avd, but he usually still can't force his enemies down to "safe" hit rates even only in the slightest.

Did you now? Cause with the support of B with Garcia, a level 10 Ross has 2 ATK on Dozla, who would only have 10 crit. As nice as 10 crit is, I value the 2 ATK quite a bit more.

I forgot about that, but I'll get to it later.

As for why Ross gets him, the answer is obvious-Who helps Garcia kick ass harder than Ross? I now have two quite powerful units only getting stronger. The fact Ross and he will actually have a support well into the making to an A by the time Dozla shows up is an advantage for Ross. A B is fine really, but let's not forget that fire and thunder DO have a bit of mismatching. What I mean by this is their C is practically worthless. All Dozla gets is 5 avoid and crit. Nice boosts, but I wouldn't call it a stunning change. 25 turns for a C, 30 turns for a B with his 10+2 Speed support. Ross only needs a grand total of 7 turns for a C with Garcia with his 35+4 speed support. I could get that in a single chapter. Only 15 for a B, so basically 2 chapters. 20 for an A, basically 3 chapters. Ross and Garcia start in chapter 2. I'll basically have a C within chapter 3. So 2 chapters later is Serafew, so a bit after that I'll probably have a B by the start of chapter 7. I'll act like they can't build a support other than the first turn on this map, as Pirate Ross is crossing the river north to help aid Vanessa in wasting the northern units as to get Eirika to the castle all the faster. However, chapter 8 is long by virture of it's design. Even taking the short way you'll be taking a bit of time, as we want Colm getting to those chests with the Silver Sword and Elysian Whip. 10 sounds about right.

I'll also do you the favor of skipping Port Kiris, for the explained pirate rape beforehand along with him moving south.

This leaves chapter 10, where I can build up another 7. Then Dozla shows up.

They might not have an A, but it certainly isn't a long wait for one. Once they hit it, add +1 Atk, 5 crit, hit and avoid to the comparison.

I didn't forget about promotion, I simply didn't mention it because we all know that a Ross promoted at Lv20 beats Dozla for the rest of the game. The point just is: when is he going to promote? Ross will be Lv10 at the start of chapter 12. If we then assume the regular leveling speed of 1.5 levels per chapter based on about average performance, he'll hit promotion somewhere during chapter 18. So then Ross beats Dozla for around 3.3 chapters if you count the final one, while Dozla beats Ross for around 7. Sounds like a win for Dozla to me. Neither of them really crushes the other during their win period, since Dozla's win is merely him being notably more durable and Ross' win is then merely being able to kill a few more things than Dozla can, but it's still a win for Dozla.

Except he could gain more than that, due to his leveling speed. You seem to factor in only Ross without his advantages over Dozla. These being that he basically ties offensively, but is also helping another unit, Garcia, beat Dozla basically forever. Then factor in his pirate uses before he even shows up, and the fact this support helps pull an offense lead on Dozla along with a significant avoid lead, I'd say at worst they'd tie.

I don't buy that. As I said, leveling speed cuts down notably at around Lv15 unpromoted, and then the enemies' level will rise as well, netting Dozla some more EXP points until finally promoted enemies start to show up, against which Dozla levels completely normally. Until chapter 18, Dozla will have moar like Lv8.

So lemme get this straight, I gave a unit 10 levels with a significantly faster leveling speed for at least a good while...And you gave a dude who is basically 10 levels higher and promoted...7!?

Joker also has shown how Ross could promote at level 15 and still basically beat Dozla forever, and since you seem to agree that won't exactly take long...Hell, since you seem to think Dozla will be level 8 by chapter 18 (seriously, you people are ridiculous with sandbagging Ross), let's compare level 16 promoted Ross.

Ross 16/1 Berserker

37 HP, 20 Str, 11 Skill, 12 Speed, 17 Luck, 12 Def, 7 Res

A Garcia +3Atk, 15 hit, avoid and crit

Dozla level 8

48 HP, 19 Str, 13 Skill, 11 Speed, 6 Luck, 13 Def, 7 Res

B Garcia-+1ATK, def, 10 avoid and crit, 5 hit.

Ok, even naturally Ross STILL has an offense lead. 1 Str, 1 Speed, along with a 14 avoid lead and a Garcia support boosting his win of Str by 3, avoid by 15 (to an unholy 29 lead, something he can get just around the time Dozla shows up), along with hit and will actually have a 4 crit lead even after supports are factored. Support of B, which only cuts it down by 1 ATK, 10 avoid and crit. Would still be losing hit. Nevermind he wouldn't even start feeling this support until about chapter 14, Ross would be having an A with Garcia far before then anyways.

So it takes a severely overleveled Dozla to still lose offensively to an essentially gimped Ross. Ross would also be hitting this level far sooner than Dozla would be getting to level 8, so I think your chapters of win here are backwards. 1+1 defense might not be much, but it is compounded by hte 11 HP lead, so he does have concrete down...But an avoid lead is an avoid lead. Even with supports, Ross would have a 19 avoid lead. He does at least make up for it in some fashion.

Great. I could as well just have Vanessa carry Seth over the mountain to massacre the boss and then carry Eirika over the mountain, pass her to Seth and drop her near the gate. If anything, this is even faster if we just want to skip the chapter as quickly as possible, so it's only a very minor point for Ross if at all.

Sweet, Seth's better than Ross! The mystery is finally over! We can put away the roadblocks now...

In fact, Seth could rescue Eirika and help get through this map probably just as fast using his sheer move advantage normally while Vanessa and Ross take care of the north. On top of this, it allows him to weaken enemies rather than just kill them, so not only am I getting through the map probably just as fast, my team has an easier getting stronger overall. The way you'd do it, it would go like this.

Turn 1, Vanessa rescues Seth. Seth is now doing nothing. Turn 2, Vanessa drops Seth. Seth begins raping the north end. Turn 3. Vanessa rescues Eirika, granted I had her do nothing but place her in rescue range, though there are enemies about. Turn 4, Vanessa drops Eirika. Turn 5, Seth kills boss, Eirika moves closer to throne. Turn 6, Eirika takes throne, granted she's close enough. Otherwise...

Turn 1, Seth rescues Eirika and moves out. Vanessa and Ross start fighting the northern guys. Seth on enemy phase weakens two axers. Turn 2, my group kills tenderized axers, Seth moves forward. Vanessa and Ross still combating northern forces, starting to clear up. Vanessa moves to distract the mercs. Enemy phase, weakens two axe users, mage does dick. Turn 3, Seth is getting close to the bridge. He attacks a merc, Vanessa assaulting the other. Ross moves towards castle to hand axe or hatchet the archers. Rest of hte group takes care of weakened axers and kills the mage. Turn 4, Seth is at bridge while Vanessa and Ross clean up the weakened archers. Seth drops Eirika. Turn 5, Seth kills boss, but Eirika is probably not close enough to the throne. Turn 6, Eirika takes throne.

Seth solo is fun and all, but I can get through it just as fast normally, and benefit more from it due to more experience spread out through the team. It would be plenty harder to do so without pirate Ross. At worst it would take a turn more, and I'm not about to cry spilt milk over a turn just to needlessly abuse Seth's power.

Let me tell you that you totally don't need Ross here. You don't even need Vanessa for this task. Tana can do it all herself, and she's actually forced into this chapter. She can just fly around the pirates, mocking their attacking range because they can't reach her, and carefully snatch the Rapier out of the village while using her Canto to get out of the archers' range. I've done it several times like this, and it works, even though it takes a few turns (3 or 4, IIRC). Tana can snatch the village without getting involved into a single fight. The pirates will come over to your main army after a few turns anyway, so it doesn't even hurt your efficiency if you don't already kill them while they're still on the water. To the contrary, once they're out of the water, anyone has an easy time dealing with them since they lose their Avd bonus.

Or, I could have Ross simply kabash the pirates, go south and actually bitchslap the archers, and do it as well. This leaves my group to do the actual map rather than leaving some behind just to pull a few pirates out of the water. Ross can do this because he's not a bitch, like you seem to think he is. Tana has flight and needs to dodge all these things, but Ross cares just as little since he can just move in and actually KILL these guys. Saves my main group time, makes my fliers worry less about their surroundings. Hell, after Ross takes care of the archers, it allows Vanessa and Tana to actual go fight WITH him in the south, so now Ross actually has a team to take on the south part.I wouldn't be surprised if by the time the main group got there, the south area was mostly empty anyways.

Yeah, hype the support, I don't really care. It's not like the Ross support suddenly turns Garcia into Teh Destroyer of Doom and Pwn, it merely helps him hit better. Garcia's STR is already insane all by itself, so he hardly gives a damn if it gets boosted even further. Garcia's problem isn't Atk, it's that he doesn't reliably double, which no support on earth can fix.

Right, promoting does. Going hero, on average he has 12 AS. Dozla needs a grand total of 8 levels to accomplish this, and Garcia has it even better for promotion, since he's probably far closer to that level by the time Dozla shows up.

...if said warships don't blast Ross to death before he actually reaches them.

Because Ross is incapable of packing vulneries. *rolls eyes* are you done being rediculous?

I never said all of Ross' existance prior to Dozla was fail, I simply said he didn't do anything particularly worth of noting, like building up something like actual utility. He's there, and he doesn't hurt the team, but he's far from being notably useful or even amazing.

I don't see anyone currently above him able to do the waterwalk abilities he has prior to Dozla showing up. I'd say that's clear utility. Your arguments for this seem to be

"Lol, Seth can solo anyways, despite it's just as fast to go normally because Seth is teh god"

"Tana and Vanessa have to avoid the pirates and archers to get to the south house while Ross can just kill them and save it normally, so Vanessa and Tana are better due to inferior combat".

Yes Seth is godly and yes Vanessa and Tana can avoid combat with flight, but the thing is Ross helps do things just as fast as a Seth drop and Ross is not slowed down by pirates and archers because he can actually fight them in their own territory. I don't see Joshua doing this. Don't see Colm doing it, nor Forde, nor Kyle, what have you.

Ross does not beat Dozla offensively when the latter shows up, as my comparisons further above show. Due to Dozla getting a Speedwing as a compensation for the fact that he doesn't need to promote, Dozla actually doubles some things that Ross can't, and actually ORKOs them while Ross can't. Also, there's always hammers, halberds, killer axes, Garm and the Brave Axe to help fix offense issues in case Dozla needs/wants them, while there is in fact no weapon that improves their durability. So even if Ross eventually beats Dozla in offense, Dozlas durability still means more than Ross' offense.

Did you know Ross doesn't need to "fix his offense"? And no, your comparison's have NEVER shown Dozla has an offense lead. At best, he starts with a 5 crit lead, which suddenly vanishes 3 turns later. The fact that Ross allows Dozla to use weapons he himself doesn't need, Dozla should be on his hands and knees.

Nice strawman with the Speedwing by the way. Ross promoting at level 16, they'd have the same speed. Guess who has more Str and actual supports built up? Not to mention there are far more competitors for the wing than for an Ocean Seal. Colm's the only one, and he doesn't even need it to be useful, not that Ross minds waiting in the first place. Promoting Ross is of no consequence. Using that wing however is, and for 2 reasons.

Did Deussal and Gilliam suddenly die and vanish off the face of the earth? Deussal could have 14 AS, which I highly doubt is ever seeing problems ever again unless you count lolswordmasters in the Rausten fight. 20/1 Gilliam could have 12 AS, which is more speed than Dozla using it. In fact, a wing helps greatly his earlier performance for when Dozla isn't around. At that time, Gilliam would have more strength and is most certainly a crapload tougher. On top of this, he has a natural avoid lead of 6 along with total weapon triangle control. Hell, Gilliam could have supports built up by the time Dozla shows up as well. Guess who Gilliam can support? Hint: It's Garcia. With his offense, crit, hit and avoid boosts.

And Ross' superior avoid doesn't mean anything if he still dies a lot faster than Dozla does, and he does. He's a little more accurate, omg. Who cares? Speedwing!Dozla still kills more for a while. I never ignored any of this, but it simply doesn't mean any difference.

His avoid alone by then could cut Shadowshot down to 30 acc, of which a Garcia support would reduce it to 15 before enemy skill is involved, of which to get it back up to upper numbers would need like 12 skill. Mogalls are not mercs here. Dozla can't even pull that off until he's around level 15, which is just utter nonsense. Ross can cut Demon Surge down to 40 naturally, which is still enough to have the 2 RN system work for him. Dozla can barely pull this off at MAX LEVEL.

A little? The support makes it more than little, I thought you ought to know. Dozla's base hit is 24, Iron axe hit is 75. He can't break 100 hit with his most accurate weapon choice. If the enemy even has a hint of dodge, there's a chance he will miss, which means there are times Dozla's offense is cut in half. Ross not only has better hit, but his supports help make this far less an issue.

Also, I'll repeat myself, everyone and their mom knows that Ross beats Dozla once he promotes at Lv20. It's just that this promotion is so late that no-one really cares.

Ross doesn't even need to be level 20, just 16.

What's even funnier was I didn't even factor in Gerik for another of Ross's supports. Ross has a good chance for a B. This would cancel out the support Dozla would have with Garcia, and be making Gerik go from OP to hilarious.

[Scarlet]

Did you now? Cause with the support of B with Garcia, a level 10 Ross has 2 ATK on Dozla, who would only have 10 crit. As nice as 10 crit is, I value the 2 ATK quite a bit more.

I indeed did. You asking this now proves that you haven't read all my posts. Look at the following.

Chapter 12 (Eirika):

Lv10 Ross, B Garcia (you don't want to ahead and tell me they already have an A support at this point, do you?):

29.6 HP, 16.0 STR, 8.3 SKL, 9.4 SPD, 15.2 LUK, 8.5 DEF, 3.6 RES, 10 CON

Iron Axe: 26.0 Atk, 109.2 Hit, 14.15 Crt, 9.4 AS, 44.0 Avd

Steel Axe: 29.0 Atk, 99.2 Hit, 14.15 Crt, 4.4 AS, 34.0 Avd

Battle Axe: 30.0 Atk, 94.2 Hit, 19.15 Crt, 4.4 AS, 34.0 Avd

Base level Dozla (+ Speedwing):

43.0 HP, 16.0 STR, 11.0 SKL, 11.0 SPD, 4.0 LUK, 11.0 DEF, 6.0 RES, 16 CON

Iron Axe: 24.0 Atk, 99.0 Hit, 20.5 Crt, 11.0 AS, 26.0 Avd

Steel Axe: 27.0 Atk, 89.0 Hit, 20.5 Crt, 11.0 AS, 26.0 Avd

Battle Axe: 28.0 Atk, 84.0 Hit, 25.5 Crt, 11.0 AS, 26.0 Avd

As you might notice, the B is there. And Dozla can easily pull superior offense by using a stronger weapon. Ross using a stronger weapon actually hurts his offense because he doesn't double shit with them. I actually even listed enemy comparisons in that post, so click "find post" to read those.

As for why Ross gets him, the answer is obvious-Who helps Garcia kick ass harder than Ross? I now have two quite powerful units only getting stronger. The fact Ross and he will actually have a support well into the making to an A by the time Dozla shows up is an advantage for Ross. A B is fine really, but let's not forget that fire and thunder DO have a bit of mismatching. What I mean by this is their C is practically worthless. All Dozla gets is 5 avoid and crit. Nice boosts, but I wouldn't call it a stunning change. 25 turns for a C, 30 turns for a B with his 10+2 Speed support. Ross only needs a grand total of 7 turns for a C with Garcia with his 35+4 speed support. I could get that in a single chapter. Only 15 for a B, so basically 2 chapters. 20 for an A, basically 3 chapters. Ross and Garcia start in chapter 2. I'll basically have a C within chapter 3. So 2 chapters later is Serafew, so a bit after that I'll probably have a B by the start of chapter 7. I'll act like they can't build a support other than the first turn on this map, as Pirate Ross is crossing the river north to help aid Vanessa in wasting the northern units as to get Eirika to the castle all the faster. However, chapter 8 is long by virture of it's design. Even taking the short way you'll be taking a bit of time, as we want Colm getting to those chests with the Silver Sword and Elysian Whip. 10 sounds about right.

I'll also do you the favor of skipping Port Kiris, for the explained pirate rape beforehand along with him moving south.

This leaves chapter 10, where I can build up another 7. Then Dozla shows up.

They might not have an A, but it certainly isn't a long wait for one. Once they hit it, add +1 Atk, 5 crit, hit and avoid to the comparison.

Are you done overhyping their support now in a depth of detail that no-one asked for? Thanks.

As I already explained, fire x fire may be a nice combination in itself, but it doesn't do very much for Garcia, because Garcia's offensive stats aren't his issue. His AS is.

Except he could gain more than that, due to his leveling speed. You seem to factor in only Ross without his advantages over Dozla. These being that he basically ties offensively, but is also helping another unit, Garcia, beat Dozla basically forever. Then factor in his pirate uses before he even shows up, and the fact this support helps pull an offense lead on Dozla along with a significant avoid lead, I'd say at worst they'd tie.

Except he could not, because I already factored in his "leveling speed".

What advantages does Ross have over Dozla, except for very slightly winning offense when being restricted to iron weapons when both don't double, and mostly superfluous CrtEvd? Do tell me.

Also, this is about Ross vs. Dozla. No-one cares about whether or not Garcia beats Dozla, because all this proves is Garcia > Dozla.

Waterwalk isn't the magical trump card that beats Dozla - you never really need it, fliers do it a lot better than him and Dozla is actually capable of waterwalking as well. Actually, Dozla even has an advatage over Ross - Dozla can place himself on peaks when he feels like it for a nice juicy +2 DEF and +40 Avd. Ross can only do this after promotion.

Also, how does mentioning the support twice make it any better?

So lemme get this straight, I gave a unit 10 levels with a significantly faster leveling speed for at least a good while...And you gave a dude who is basically 10 levels higher and promoted...7!?

Except Ross' leveling speed is hardly any faster at all anymore once he hits around level 15 or 16. At least, there's no way Ross is getting thrice as many levels as Dozla is.

Joker also has shown how Ross could promote at level 15 and still basically beat Dozla forever, and since you seem to agree that won't exactly take long...Hell, since you seem to think Dozla will be level 8 by chapter 18 (seriously, you people are ridiculous with sandbagging Ross), let's compare level 16 promoted Ross.

Ross 16/1 Berserker

37 HP, 20 Str, 11 Skill, 12 Speed, 17 Luck, 12 Def, 7 Res

A Garcia +3Atk, 15 hit, avoid and crit

Dozla level 8

48 HP, 19 Str, 13 Skill, 11 Speed, 6 Luck, 13 Def, 7 Res

B Garcia-+1ATK, def, 10 avoid and crit, 5 hit.

Ok, even naturally Ross STILL has an offense lead. 1 Str, 1 Speed, along with a 14 avoid lead and a Garcia support boosting his win of Str by 3, avoid by 15 (to an unholy 29 lead, something he can get just around the time Dozla shows up), along with hit and will actually have a 4 crit lead even after supports are factored. Support of B, which only cuts it down by 1 ATK, 10 avoid and crit. Would still be losing hit. Nevermind he wouldn't even start feeling this support until about chapter 14, Ross would be having an A with Garcia far before then anyways.

Huh, really? Actually, Dozla still looks a litte better to me than Ross. Their offense is basically the same (yeah, he has 1 more SPD, but he still loses AS from anything heavier than 13, like Steel Axes, to the point where Dozla leads again), and Dozla has a lot more concrete durability while Ross has a little more Avd. However, Ross' Avd is only reliable when he has WTA. If he faces neutral WT (like, against magic) or WTD, his Avd won't do much. Dozla doesn't care about Avd much, because he can take a ton of hits and still not die. And if you promote Ross early, Ross starts to level so slow that it's hardly any faster than Dozla's leveling speed anymore, to the point at which Dozla's better growths actually are good enough to keep them roughly equal. So if you do this, you reduce Dozla's winning time, but Ross will then never actually beat Dozla.

So it takes a severely overleveled Dozla to still lose offensively to an essentially gimped Ross. Ross would also be hitting this level far sooner than Dozla would be getting to level 8, so I think your chapters of win here are backwards. 1+1 defense might not be much, but it is compounded by hte 11 HP lead, so he does have concrete down...But an avoid lead is an avoid lead. Even with supports, Ross would have a 19 avoid lead. He does at least make up for it in some fashion.

Do you have some weird mindset of beating the game using nothing but irons? Stronger weapons are there, and in fact, Dozla can use them a lot more efficiently than Ross can because Ross loses AS whenever he tries something like a steel or battle axe. This means that Dozla doesn't lose offense just because Ross has a mere +3 Atk lead when they use the same weapons.

And again, Ross' Avd lead doesn't do shit against accurate enemies, like heroes or magic users, of which there are plenty in the later chapters. He'll need concrete durability to withstand those, of which Dozla has a lot more than Ross.

Great. I could as well just have Vanessa carry Seth over the mountain to massacre the boss and then carry Eirika over the mountain, pass her to Seth and drop her near the gate. If anything, this is even faster if we just want to skip the chapter as quickly as possible, so it's only a very minor point for Ross if at all.

Sweet, Seth's better than Ross! The mystery is finally over! We can put away the roadblocks now...

In fact, Seth could rescue Eirika and help get through this map probably just as fast using his sheer move advantage normally while Vanessa and Ross take care of the north. On top of this, it allows him to weaken enemies rather than just kill them, so not only am I getting through the map probably just as fast, my team has an easier getting stronger overall. The way you'd do it, it would go like this.

Turn 1, Vanessa rescues Seth. Seth is now doing nothing. Turn 2, Vanessa drops Seth. Seth begins raping the north end. Turn 3. Vanessa rescues Eirika, granted I had her do nothing but place her in rescue range, though there are enemies about. Turn 4, Vanessa drops Eirika. Turn 5, Seth kills boss, Eirika moves closer to throne. Turn 6, Eirika takes throne, granted she's close enough. Otherwise...

Turn 1, Seth rescues Eirika and moves out. Vanessa and Ross start fighting the northern guys. Seth on enemy phase weakens two axers. Turn 2, my group kills tenderized axers, Seth moves forward. Vanessa and Ross still combating northern forces, starting to clear up. Vanessa moves to distract the mercs. Enemy phase, weakens two axe users, mage does dick. Turn 3, Seth is getting close to the bridge. He attacks a merc, Vanessa assaulting the other. Ross moves towards castle to hand axe or hatchet the archers. Rest of hte group takes care of weakened axers and kills the mage. Turn 4, Seth is at bridge while Vanessa and Ross clean up the weakened archers. Seth drops Eirika. Turn 5, Seth kills boss, but Eirika is probably not close enough to the throne. Turn 6, Eirika takes throne.

Seth solo is fun and all, but I can get through it just as fast normally, and benefit more from it due to more experience spread out through the team. It would be plenty harder to do so without pirate Ross. At worst it would take a turn more, and I'm not about to cry spilt milk over a turn just to needlessly abuse Seth's power.

Do explain how Ross crossing the River helps to complete C7 faster or more efficiently. He can carry Eirika over it if Vanessa doesn't feel like it, I guess, but that's about it?

Or, I could have Ross simply kabash the pirates, go south and actually bitchslap the archers, and do it as well. This leaves my group to do the actual map rather than leaving some behind just to pull a few pirates out of the water. Ross can do this because he's not a bitch, like you seem to think he is. Tana has flight and needs to dodge all these things, but Ross cares just as little since he can just move in and actually KILL these guys. Saves my main group time, makes my fliers worry less about their surroundings. Hell, after Ross takes care of the archers, it allows Vanessa and Tana to actual go fight WITH him in the south, so now Ross actually has a team to take on the south part.I wouldn't be surprised if by the time the main group got there, the south area was mostly empty anyways.

*facedesk*

Either you're intentionally completely misunderstanding everything I say, or...

Why would you need to leave anyone behind to deal with the pirates? They follow you around. You'd meet them down at the boss, near the village, at the latest if you didn't kill them beforehand, and they arrive there quickly enough without the player having to wait for them. Unless you leave someone behind to intentionally lure them somewhere else, of course.

Also, do explain how Ross killing the pirates while they're still in the water is more efficient than anyone out of your team killing them once they've left the water. Unless you're attacking them with someone like lolNeimi, taking them on at the mainland is just as efficient as wiping them out earlier than that. It doesn't slow your main group down in any way. Also, I'd be surprised to see Ross be capable of taking on like half the map all by himself once he actually arrives at the other side of the water.

Yeah, hype the support, I don't really care. It's not like the Ross support suddenly turns Garcia into Teh Destroyer of Doom and Pwn, it merely helps him hit better. Garcia's STR is already insane all by itself, so he hardly gives a damn if it gets boosted even further. Garcia's problem isn't Atk, it's that he doesn't reliably double, which no support on earth can fix.

Right, promoting does. Going hero, on average he has 12 AS. Dozla needs a grand total of 8 levels to accomplish this, and Garcia has it even better for promotion, since he's probably far closer to that level by the time Dozla shows up.

Again, what does Garcia > Dozla have to do with anything regarding Ross vs. Dozla? It's not like Ross would be the one allowing Garcia to promote.

...if said warships don't blast Ross to death before he actually reaches them.

Because Ross is incapable of packing vulneries. *rolls eyes* are you done being rediculous?

Oh, so you want to waste vulneries just for that? Fine, have it your way. Still isn't very impressive.

I never said all of Ross' existance prior to Dozla was fail, I simply said he didn't do anything particularly worth of noting, like building up something like actual utility. He's there, and he doesn't hurt the team, but he's far from being notably useful or even amazing.

I don't see anyone currently above him able to do the waterwalk abilities he has prior to Dozla showing up. I'd say that's clear utility.

It's just that waterwalking has hardly any real use before Dozla shows up. And as I said, your fliers can do it better anyway. This is not fliers vs. Ross, but Ross' "waterwalking utility" isn't unique to himself, like you seem to claim, and Dozla actually has it as well, so it's a moot point actually.

Your arguments for this seem to be

"Lol, Seth can solo anyways, despite it's just as fast to go normally because Seth is teh god"

Your strategy for C7 seemed to suggest to skip it using Ross. Using Seth for this is more efficient, so what?

"Tana and Vanessa have to avoid the pirates and archers to get to the south house while Ross can just kill them and save it normally, so Vanessa and Tana are better due to inferior combat".

Are you done putting utter nonsense into my mouth even though I never said anything like that? I didn't say that they're better against the pirates or archers, I just said that saving the village is not a point for Ross because Tana, who is forced into this chapter and thus always there, can do it as well (she actually even is faster at reaching the village than Ross is despite having to avoid combat), so we'd get the Rapier anyway. Ross can kill the enemies there earlier than everyone else can, but the goal here is to kill all enemies anyway, and the main group can also kill those enemies without Ross' help (I mean, as in, if Ross or any other unit just went the regular way as well instead of going over the water) without needing more turns to finish, so this point is worthless for Ross.

Yes Seth is godly and yes Vanessa and Tana can avoid combat with flight, but the thing is Ross helps do things just as fast as a Seth drop and Ross is not slowed down by pirates and archers because he can actually fight them in their own territory. I don't see Joshua doing this. Don't see Colm doing it, nor Forde, nor Kyle, what have you.

The fact is that none of these activities that Ross is capable of (except for combat, of course, before you start that nonsense again...) help completing the chapters any faster than you could do it without him.

Did you know Ross doesn't need to "fix his offense"? And no, your comparison's have NEVER shown Dozla has an offense lead. At best, he starts with a 5 crit lead, which suddenly vanishes 3 turns later. The fact that Ross allows Dozla to use weapons he himself doesn't need, Dozla should be on his hands and knees.

Did you know I was talking about Dozla when I said that? Also, no, Ross doesn't need to fix his offense. He needs to fix his durability.

Also, you NEVER read my posts at all. Read this:

Chapter 12 (Eirika):

Lv10 Ross, B Garcia (you don't want to ahead and tell me they already have an A support at this point, do you?):

29.6 HP, 16.0 STR, 8.3 SKL, 9.4 SPD, 15.2 LUK, 8.5 DEF, 3.6 RES, 10 CON

Iron Axe: 26.0 Atk, 109.2 Hit, 14.15 Crt, 9.4 AS, 44.0 Avd

Steel Axe: 29.0 Atk, 99.2 Hit, 14.15 Crt, 4.4 AS, 34.0 Avd

Battle Axe: 30.0 Atk, 94.2 Hit, 19.15 Crt, 4.4 AS, 34.0 Avd

Base level Dozla (+ Speedwing):

43.0 HP, 16.0 STR, 11.0 SKL, 11.0 SPD, 4.0 LUK, 11.0 DEF, 6.0 RES, 16 CON

Iron Axe: 24.0 Atk, 99.0 Hit, 20.5 Crt, 11.0 AS, 26.0 Avd

Steel Axe: 27.0 Atk, 89.0 Hit, 20.5 Crt, 11.0 AS, 26.0 Avd

Battle Axe: 28.0 Atk, 84.0 Hit, 25.5 Crt, 11.0 AS, 26.0 Avd

randomBonewalker (Iron Lance): 15 Atk, 90 Hit, 2 Crt, 4 AS | 29 HP, 9 Avd, 5 Def, 2 Res

IronAxe!Ross ORKOs (2RKOs with heavier weapons), gets 6RKO'd at 36 DHit in return (46 with heavier weapons)

Dozla ORKOs with any weapon, gets 15RKO'd at 54 DHit in return

Want a tougher enemy? Here we go.

randomBael (Sharp Claw): 26 Atk, 80 Hit, 3 Crt, 4 AS | 33 HP, 10 Avd, 8 Def, 2 Res

IronAxe!Ross ORKOs (2RKOs with heavier weapons), gets 2RKO'd at 36 DHit in return (46 with heavier weapons)

Dozla ORKOs with Steel Axe and up (leaves at 1 HP with Iron Axe), gets 3RKO'd at 54 DHit in return (turns into a 4RKO whenever Dozla's DEF increases by any amount, for example when standing on a forest or Peak)

Even tougher? Look at this.

randomGargoyle (Javelin): 19 Atk, 77 Hit, 3 Crt, 7 AS | 29 HP, 15 Avd, 9 Def, 2 Res

Ross 2RKOs with any weapon, gets 4RKO'd at 23 DHit (33 when using heavier weapons; turns into a 3RKO if his DEF happens to round down)

Dozla ORKOs with any weapon, gets 8RKO'd at 41 DHit

Monsters are weak. How 'bout a cavalier from C13?

randomCavalier (Steel Sword): 18 Atk, 93 Hit, 4 Crt, 7 AS | 31 HP, 18 Avd, 9 Def, 3 Res

Ross 2RKOs with any weapon at at best 81 DHit, gets 4RKO'd at 59 DHit (69 with heavier weapons; turns into a 3RKO if his DEF happens to round down)

Dozla ORKOs with Steel Axe and up at 61 DHit, gets 8RKO'd at 77 DHit

I don't know about you, but aside from Dozla's somewhat unstable hit rate, he looks a hell of a lot better to me.

Dozla ORKOs any of these enemies. Ross doesn't. What does this mean? Exactly! Dozla has better offense than Ross at that point, which is exactly what I have said!

Also, Ross can't even use better weapons without actually crippling his offense instead of improving it. CON issues, you know.

Nice strawman with the Speedwing by the way. Ross promoting at level 16, they'd have the same speed. Guess who has more Str and actual supports built up? Not to mention there are far more competitors for the wing than for an Ocean Seal. Colm's the only one, and he doesn't even need it to be useful, not that Ross minds waiting in the first place. Promoting Ross is of no consequence. Using that wing however is, and for 2 reasons.

Did Deussal and Gilliam suddenly die and vanish off the face of the earth? Deussal could have 14 AS, which I highly doubt is ever seeing problems ever again unless you count lolswordmasters in the Rausten fight. 20/1 Gilliam could have 12 AS, which is more speed than Dozla using it. In fact, a wing helps greatly his earlier performance for when Dozla isn't around. At that time, Gilliam would have more strength and is most certainly a crapload tougher. On top of this, he has a natural avoid lead of 6 along with total weapon triangle control. Hell, Gilliam could have supports built up by the time Dozla shows up as well. Guess who Gilliam can support? Hint: It's Garcia. With his offense, crit, hit and avoid boosts.

Oi, promoted Ross has an offense lead! The world will come to an end.

Dozla has B Garcia as well btw

Also, even if Ross had no competition for his promotion item, this doesn't change the fact that he has to use it and thus consume a big chunk of money (or call it resources). If we use Dozla instead of Ross, we don't need that promotion item, so we can spend that amount of money (or call it resources) on something else, like an upgrade item for Dozla. Even though I don't think a speedwing is an issue at all (Eirika route Duessel isn't very impressive since he comes so late, and lolGilliam. Additionally, doesn't someone else want the item Ross consumes as well, hm?), if this for some reason blazes your balls, I can as well give him a Dracoshield instead. With that much DEF, he becomes even more immortal against physical enemies than he already is, and all Ross then has to compare is a laughable little offense lead.

And Ross' superior avoid doesn't mean anything if he still dies a lot faster than Dozla does, and he does. He's a little more accurate, omg. Who cares? Speedwing!Dozla still kills more for a while. I never ignored any of this, but it simply doesn't mean any difference.

His avoid alone by then could cut Shadowshot down to 30 acc, of which a Garcia support would reduce it to 15 before enemy skill is involved, of which to get it back up to upper numbers would need like 12 skill. Mogalls are not mercs here. Dozla can't even pull that off until he's around level 15, which is just utter nonsense. Ross can cut Demon Surge down to 40 naturally, which is still enough to have the 2 RN system work for him. Dozla can barely pull this off at MAX LEVEL.

Oi, because every single enemy in this game is a magic user. Besides, Dozla still has a lot more HP to work with than Ross. Even if Ross has better chances to dodge those attacks, something like those insane 35 Atk Demon Surges from the Gorgons will likely just 2HKO him. Dozla will likely be able to cut it to a 3HKO.

So even if they're about the same against magic users, Dozla is godly durable against physical enemies while Ross is merely "okay".

A little? The support makes it more than little, I thought you ought to know. Dozla's base hit is 24, Iron axe hit is 75. He can't break 100 hit with his most accurate weapon choice. If the enemy even has a hint of dodge, there's a chance he will miss, which means there are times Dozla's offense is cut in half. Ross not only has better hit, but his supports help make this far less an issue.

Actually, Ross having better Hit is a result of his supports. His supports aren't amplifying it, like you're implying.

Also, we all know Dozla has some minor hit issues, but he's fine as long as he's not got WTD. And we already know that Ross beats Dozla offensively some time after the latter joined, so why are you actually bringing this up yet again?

Also, I'll repeat myself, everyone and their mom knows that Ross beats Dozla once he promotes at Lv20. It's just that this promotion is so late that no-one really cares.

Ross doesn't even need to be level 20, just 16.

Read above. If Ross promotes at level 16, he'll never beat Dozla in anything.

[CATS]

wait

did Tino just try to use Ross's earlygame as a point in his favor?

I WAS going to sig his "Lyn takes a country" thing in the FE7 topic but this is just too fucking rich.

brb changing that

[kills urges inside to start a Tino is ridiculous topic]

anyway, we even have to consider which route this is if we're adding Duessel to the competition of favortism, as it's obviously much less of a problem on Eir route. I'm not sure if 10/10 Ross is fair by Duessal's chapter, but Raymond DID say level speed dropped at 15, so let's look at it from there...

Btw, I don't think I consider a speedwing for Dozla as opposed to a promotion item in low demand which we're going to buy from the shop anyway [Colm's ready to use the first seal when we get it in C9 if he's not close whereas Ross's promotion timeframe is much closer to the secret shop in 14] by the time Ross can promote very fair, so I'm going to have to throw that one out.

15 Ross A Garcia [surely they have it by now]

33 HP, 21 str, 11 AS, 10 def

2 Dozla

44 HP, 16 str, 9 AS, 11 def

Look, Dozla can only tie in AS even if he gets the speedwing, and the durability gap has closed a lot. Due to reliable handaxing thanks to +15 hit, Ross's durability may actually be better since he can ORKO with his massive str without eating a counter.

Then there's a lot of shit Dozla can't double if he doesn't get his speedwing, Baels [it was some monster thingy with 7 AS hell if I know] and cavs, for instance.

I dunno, shitty earlygame aside, I see a potential case for Ross.

Dozla is L2? So that's like Ch 12-13. Ross being L15 means you gave Ross 2-3 levels per chapter even after he reached his base class.

Also, do remind me why everyone is still assuming Garcia x Ross.

First off, what is the problem with assuming RossXGarcia? It's a very valid support. It's a very beneficial support. This "hogging" shit needs to stop. Let's recall a few things: Ross is Pirate -> Berserker. End of story. I don't even want to hear the slimmest "Ross is going Hero" because it's inefficient due to cutting into Hero Crest uses and, again, an excuse to keep him where he is. So, any comments on that will simply be ignored.

You can't throw something out just because it hurts your case, which is what you seem to be doing, as I don't see any sort of a logical rebuttal in here.

Garcia being used means one of these happens:

Joshua or Gerik is dropped.

You buy a Hero Crest for 10K.

You use the Ch 15 Master Seal.

One of these three waits until the end of Ch 16 to promote.

Pirate Ross being used means one of these happens:

Colm is dropped.

You buy an Ocean Seal for 10K.

You use the Ch 15 Master Seal.

One of these two never promotes.

Using one or the other you might be able to justify because the Master Seal exists, but both of them at the same time, when it creates these issues and neither one of them are good units to start with (especially lolRoss)? What's your justification for that?

Also, Ross is fine and able to double everything post-promo? What? No, that's bullshat on a stick. He can double alot of the crappy unpromoted enemies, but anyone's killing those at this point. The promoted enemies are the ones that can mess you up, and he sucks at doubling those. Ch 16 Great Knights can already have up to 11 AS; Ross needs to be L26-27 in order to consistently double, and the Warriors in that same chap are slightly faster than the GKs, so he's not doubling those either. And he's sure as hell not doubling the Heroes or the SM here.

Ross's L21 Spd is only one point higher than Garcia's. If Garcia wants Spd-boosting resources, Ross will want them too.

Now, the Speedwings. As I've said it's not something that I plan to bank my entire argument on anyway. It's very simple: 2RKOing is not joking around. Then we recall to Garm and Brave Axe: I've stated these weapons are fine to assume. Then the Hero Crest ordeal; if we assume that Garcia is taking the Speedwings, then all I can say is "whatever" to the logic presented. After promoting in C15 there's 14 AS; your magic number if I'm not mistaken. Despite that, we already scratched off Ross. Even so, saying that a promotional item has virtual opposition (i.e. favoritism) is a not a solid argument to back up on. Gerik and Joshua are not guaranteed in play, nor are they guaranteed the Hero Crest either. This isn't the stat boosters, to keep in mind.

As for the Sword rank, recall that it is C and he will still double sometimes (to say that he won't double at all is a dumb assumption). Furthermore, Blades + Lancereaver give 2 WEXP per hit, then a fatal hit can give double. Even so, it's less than 25 swings. Not a whole lot until the Brave Sword. And a final nitpick, assuming that Dozla and Duessel guaranteed the Brave Axe, which I DID see as an argument by CATS, is quite the "lol" statement. Duessel is a maybe, but Dozla still has the issue such as "where am I again?" and many other factors that can bend toward Garcia's advantage: doubling more often than Dozla in the first place.

Garcia isn't getting free Speedwings. Everyone wants the Ch 9 Speedwing as even Franz can't double everything at that point, so you can cross that out. Let's look at Ch 13; I'll take Eir Route since that's where I'm currently at on my game.

Spd values for some Top/High/Upper Mid units here:

L16 Franz: 14.5

L14 Artur: 12.8

L11 Cormag: 11

L14 Forde: 11.7

L14 Gerik: 14.2

L14 Kyle: 10.6

L14 Lute: 11.8

Ch 13 enemy AS values......

Iron Bow Archers and Priests are 6-8 AS. Lute, Forde, Kyle, Artur and Cormag are all borderline.

Mercs are 11-12 AS. lol, Franz can't even get these.

I'm seeing mostly 9's on Cavaliers. No one even doubles these on average except Franz/Gerik.

lol, Rangers. 16 Spd. Some of these units are getting doubled.

The boss has 10.

I could also just give this Speedwing to Dozla and throw him down here with 11-12 AS, i.e. about average Spd, maybe a little below, and high stats in everything else.

So there goes that argument.

Lategame, where is Dozla? Good question. Let's look at his offense when given Garm.

Ch 16, a L6 Dozla w/ Garm has 16 Spd and 38.5 Atk. He one-rounds every enemy in the chapter except the 3 Heroes, the 1 SM, and the boss. He one-rounds Warriors and Great Knights. Let's compare to, say, Kyle--21 Kyle has 15 Spd and 18.5 Str, and probably like +1 Atk from supports. He's not able to double those Warriors/GKs as consistently as Dozla, and his maximum Atk is 33.5 with a Silver Lance that you probably already used up considering it's been around since the Prologue. Given a Killer Lance, he has 29.5 Atk. 9 points less than Dozla. He can't 2HKO Warriors/GKs and he's worse at doubling them; Dozla has superior offense.

So yeah, that's where Dozla's at if he can get his hands on Garm. Duessel is in a similar position. An early-promoted Gerik might even be able to S Axes--D on promotion and the ability to freely spam Steel Axes, as they're often his best weapon anyways. He can get to B Axes for sure.

With Garcia's Sword rank, keep in mind that while he's swinging the Iron Blade around, there's alot of stuff he's not one-rounding. Iron Blade spamming is going to cut into time where he could've just been using Garm or Brave/Killer Axe instead. And again, even if he gets B Swords, lots and lots of units can use the Brave Sword, and it doesn't even show up until Ch 19, so it's still barely doing anything for him.

[Dat Nick]

What's your justification for that?

Assloads of funds in FE8 making the 10k barely an issue, and some promotion items we're unlikely to use [are you REALLY going to use 3 hero crests in one play?]

THAT'S my justification for that. Btw, if Dozla isn't 2 by the time Ross is 15, I can't see him being much higher. 3? 4? Don't even go higher than five.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Joker

[Colonel M]

First off, what is the problem with assuming RossXGarcia? It's a very valid support. It's a very beneficial support. This "hogging" shit needs to stop. Let's recall a few things: Ross is Pirate -> Berserker. End of story. I don't even want to hear the slimmest "Ross is going Hero" because it's inefficient due to cutting into Hero Crest uses and, again, an excuse to keep him where he is. So, any comments on that will simply be ignored.

You can't throw something out just because it hurts your case, which is what you seem to be doing, as I don't see any sort of a logical rebuttal in here.

Garcia being used means one of these happens:

Joshua or Gerik is dropped.

You buy a Hero Crest for 10K.

You use the Ch 15 Master Seal.

One of these three waits until the end of Ch 16 to promote.

Again, then you would be putting a negative emphasis on these two units as well. Unless you're stating that we should contradict ourselves. Gerik has little problems, from what I recall, waiting for the "erhem" C14 Hero Crest. Or the Master Seal, whichever floats your boat. It gives him more practical time to improve his stats since promotion leveling is a bit slower than Gerik's current state.

Pirate Ross being used means one of these happens:

Colm is dropped.

You buy an Ocean Seal for 10K.

You use the Ch 15 Master Seal.

One of these two never promotes.

Using one or the other you might be able to justify because the Master Seal exists, but both of them at the same time, when it creates these issues and neither one of them are good units to start with (especially lolRoss)? What's your justification for that?

Simple: we buy the Ocean Seal for 10K | C15 Master Seal. There was no issue from holding back Ross's promotion in the first place.

Now I'll direct your attention to something else. What does Colm actually gain from a promotion? It's quite simple to answer, but let's re-think this: when does it have "absolute value?" Certainly it does put an improvement to his combat performance, but not that much. Colm is already high on AS levels and the only "true" benefit is probably +2 Str. Now before you throw another thing about mentioning the lack of the Lockpicks. Yes, I did this on purpose. You cannot tell me within C9-14 that we are seriously going to deplete two Lockpicks. It's quite a safe assumption here.

Also, Ross is fine and able to double everything post-promo? What? No, that's bullshat on a stick. He can double alot of the crappy unpromoted enemies, but anyone's killing those at this point. The promoted enemies are the ones that can mess you up, and he sucks at doubling those. Ch 16 Great Knights can already have up to 11 AS; Ross needs to be L26-27 in order to consistently double, and the Warriors in that same chap are slightly faster than the GKs, so he's not doubling those either. And he's sure as hell not doubling the Heroes or the SM here.

I'm already going to concede the Heroes and SMs. In particular, it is extremely difficult to double these things in the first place. For just about... everyone. Another thing, these so-called "weaksauce unpromoted enemies" are the most common until C19, which it will switch to more of the enemies promoted. Despite that, it's not like we can't leave a serious dent with a Hammer or even include the chances of a critical hit being landed with an A Garcia tacked onto him. Or Halberd. Pick your poison.

Ross's L21 Spd is only one point higher than Garcia's. If Garcia wants Spd-boosting resources, Ross will want them too.

That's still a point higher though. And the growth is still higher than Garcia's to begin with. What exactly are we drawing from this?

Now, the Speedwings. As I've said it's not something that I plan to bank my entire argument on anyway. It's very simple: 2RKOing is not joking around. Then we recall to Garm and Brave Axe: I've stated these weapons are fine to assume. Then the Hero Crest ordeal; if we assume that Garcia is taking the Speedwings, then all I can say is "whatever" to the logic presented. After promoting in C15 there's 14 AS; your magic number if I'm not mistaken. Despite that, we already scratched off Ross. Even so, saying that a promotional item has virtual opposition (i.e. favoritism) is a not a solid argument to back up on. Gerik and Joshua are not guaranteed in play, nor are they guaranteed the Hero Crest either. This isn't the stat boosters, to keep in mind.

As for the Sword rank, recall that it is C and he will still double sometimes (to say that he won't double at all is a dumb assumption). Furthermore, Blades + Lancereaver give 2 WEXP per hit, then a fatal hit can give double. Even so, it's less than 25 swings. Not a whole lot until the Brave Sword. And a final nitpick, assuming that Dozla and Duessel guaranteed the Brave Axe, which I DID see as an argument by CATS, is quite the "lol" statement. Duessel is a maybe, but Dozla still has the issue such as "where am I again?" and many other factors that can bend toward Garcia's advantage: doubling more often than Dozla in the first place.

Garcia isn't getting free Speedwings. Everyone wants the Ch 9 Speedwing as even Franz can't double everything at that point, so you can cross that out. Let's look at Ch 13; I'll take Eir Route since that's where I'm currently at on my game.

Spd values for some Top/High/Upper Mid units here:

L16 Franz: 14.5

L14 Artur: 12.8

L11 Cormag: 11

L14 Forde: 11.7

L14 Gerik: 14.2

L14 Kyle: 10.6

L14 Lute: 11.8

Ch 13 enemy AS values......

Iron Bow Archers and Priests are 6-8 AS. Lute, Forde, Kyle, Artur and Cormag are all borderline.

Mercs are 11-12 AS. lol, Franz can't even get these.

I'm seeing mostly 9's on Cavaliers. No one even doubles these on average except Franz/Gerik.

lol, Rangers. 16 Spd. Some of these units are getting doubled.

The boss has 10.

I could also just give this Speedwing to Dozla and throw him down here with 11-12 AS, i.e. about average Spd, maybe a little below, and high stats in everything else.

Partial strawman argument going on here. So we're assuming that we're promoting at C15 if I'm not mistaken? If so... how are we going to get to 20/1 if many of your units so far aren't even making the cut? Eirika route as well? Cormag is not that high from what I recall in the first place and his solution is an easy one: promote the damn man to a Wyvern Knight. Though now you're helping me prove another point that I'm trying to dig at this whole time. Look at that: if these units cannot even double sometimes, or even at all in the first place, then how are we suddenly penalizing Garcia for not doubling in the first place? Thank you CATS for helping me prove a point on an item that I only said could benefit him, or practically anyone. My main point was not the Speedwing. Now, I did say that he has some merit to using it due to his raw Str, but again you've shown that everyone wants it. If Garcia is seriously 2RKOing these buffoons while the others are, say, 3RKOing when they don't double... you're playing more into his favor.

I knew mentioning that Speedwing would get me somewhere.

So there goes that argument.

Lategame, where is Dozla? Good question. Let's look at his offense when given Garm.

Ch 16, a L6 Dozla w/ Garm has 16 Spd and 38.5 Atk. He one-rounds every enemy in the chapter except the 3 Heroes, the 1 SM, and the boss. He one-rounds Warriors and Great Knights. Let's compare to, say, Kyle--21 Kyle has 15 Spd and 18.5 Str, and probably like +1 Atk from supports. He's not able to double those Warriors/GKs as consistently as Dozla, and his maximum Atk is 33.5 with a Silver Lance that you probably already used up considering it's been around since the Prologue. Given a Killer Lance, he has 29.5 Atk. 9 points less than Dozla. He can't 2HKO Warriors/GKs and he's worse at doubling them; Dozla has superior offense.

Okay, two can easily play at this game. 20/1 Garcia has 17 Spd and 39 Atk. Oh fuck, I just won that one without even trying.

So yeah, that's where Dozla's at if he can get his hands on Garm. Duessel is in a similar position. An early-promoted Gerik might even be able to S Axes--D on promotion and the ability to freely spam Steel Axes, as they're often his best weapon anyways. He can get to B Axes for sure.

Okay, but you're still dodging a point: Garcia has a chance of nabbing EITHER ONE OF THESE, or even simply sharing them. Gerik at 20/1 has 18 Spd anyway so using Garm | Brave Axe is fairly redundant to begin with.

With Garcia's Sword rank, keep in mind that while he's swinging the Iron Blade around, there's alot of stuff he's not one-rounding. Iron Blade spamming is going to cut into time where he could've just been using Garm or Brave/Killer Axe instead. And again, even if he gets B Swords, lots and lots of units can use the Brave Sword, and it doesn't even show up until Ch 19, so it's still barely doing anything for him.

We've understood that for quite some time now. Two rounding is still within the balance anyway and he can nab the WEXP in a Turn (a turn is the Player Phase + Enemy Phase). Understand what I'm saying?

[CATS]

No time to respond to everything, but I do have time to say this.

Let's consider this assertion that you supposedly have "assloads of funds."

You get 5000G from Hayden after Ch 1.

Red Gem in Ch 2. 2500.

Secret Book in Ch 5. 4000.

Orion's Bolt in Ch 6. 5000.

10000G from story event after Ch 8.

White Gem and Red Gem in Ch 10. 12500.

Secret Book in Ch 11. 4000.

10000G from chest in Ch 14.

53000 total. Buying a promo item knocks off about 1/5 of your total income. Eir Route you get only 2 Knight Crests, so one of your Cavs will want you to buy a promo item for him, too.

What do I want from the secret shop? Well, first, 10000G for that Ocean Seal or Hero Crest. Now I want enough Physics to keep Moulder and Saleh going for the rest of the game. Let's say 3 Physics. 11250G. Killer Weapons? Let's say a 12 man team, we have Tethys and 3 magic users, leaving 8 physical units. Each one will want 1-2 Killer weapons, so I'll say 1.5 per person. The average cost of Killing Edges and Killer Lances is 1250, so 1.5 * 1250 * 8 units = 15000G. I probably want a couple Barrier staves for my magic units to spam for free Exp, or just to guard against siege magic and status staves in Ch 16. ~5000G. The fast swordies definitely want Silver Blades; Eirika, Colm, Joshua, maybe Gerik. ~6000G. I want to buy a Knight Crest for one of my Cavs. 10000G. If I can afford it, I want to buy even more Physics now, so that Moulder and Saleh can go from just using them every other turn to spamming them every turn and getting massive Exp. 7500G.

You can see where I'm going with this. Yeah, this game gives you lots of money, but there's a ton of shit worth buying, too, and no Silver Card to help you out.

are you REALLY going to use 3 hero crests in one play?

Are you REALLY going to use 3 hero crest units at a time, you ask? If you're using Garcia, then yeah, it's a serious possibility. Or you could force one of Gerik/Joshua out of play, but forcing a good unit out is pretty fail. If I have to kick one of these 3 out, Garcia's probably going first.

Edited September 11, 2009 by CATS

[Colonel M]

Are you REALLY going to use 3 hero crest units at a time, you ask? If you're using Garcia, then yeah, it's a serious possibility. Or you could force one of Gerik/Joshua out of play, but forcing a good unit out is pretty fail. If I have to kick one of these 3 out, Garcia's probably going first.

So what we are implying is that these three are always in play, correct? Very well then. This tier list might as well assume that it favors pre-promotes in the first place and place a further negative on a unit that requires a promotion.

You're setting a dangerous invisible bar. Or at least implying one, for that matter.

[grandjackal]

No time to respond to everything, but I do have time to say this.

Let's consider this assertion that you supposedly have "assloads of funds."

You get 5000G from Hayden after Ch 1.

Red Gem in Ch 2. 2500.

Secret Book in Ch 5. 4000.

Orion's Bolt in Ch 6. 5000.

10000G from story event after Ch 8.

White Gem and Red Gem in Ch 10. 12500.

Secret Book in Ch 11. 4000.

10000G from chest in Ch 14.

53000 total. Buying a promo item knocks off about 1/5 of your total income. Eir Route you get only 2 Knight Crests, so one of your Cavs will want you to buy a promo item for him, too.

What do I want from the secret shop? Well, first, 10000G for that Ocean Seal or Hero Crest. Now I want enough Physics to keep Moulder and Saleh going for the rest of the game. Let's say 3 Physics. 11250G. Killer Weapons? Let's say a 12 man team, we have Tethys and 3 magic users, leaving 8 physical units. Each one will want 1-2 Killer weapons, so I'll say 1.5 per person. The average cost of Killing Edges and Killer Lances is 1250, so 1.5 * 1250 * 8 units = 15000G. I probably want a couple Barrier staves for my magic units to spam for free Exp, or just to guard against siege magic and status staves in Ch 16. ~5000G. The fast swordies definitely want Silver Blades; Eirika, Colm, Joshua, maybe Gerik. ~6000G. I want to buy a Knight Crest for one of my Cavs. 10000G. If I can afford it, I want to buy even more Physics now, so that Moulder and Saleh can go from just using them every other turn to spamming them every turn and getting massive Exp. 7500G.

You can see where I'm going with this. Yeah, this game gives you lots of money, but there's a ton of shit worth buying, too, and no Silver Card to help you out.

Wow, all that spending and I STILL have near 10k left over. The fucking tragedy. I'm so devestated by the fact that I...Still have plenty of money left.

Seriously, talk about crying over nothing. Didn't even take into account selling promotion items our team might not be using outside of the Orion's Bolt.

On top of that, we get the silver card immediately afterwards. You can stretch that money a long way, considering we effectively just doubled it with the silver card. Past Orson's chapter, we might as well have infinite money.

Are you REALLY going to use 3 hero crest units at a time, you ask? If you're using Garcia, then yeah, it's a serious possibility. Or you could force one of Gerik/Joshua out of play, but forcing a good unit out is pretty fail. If I have to kick one of these 3 out, Garcia's probably going first.

Master Seal.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Kuja

[CATS]

Again, then you would be putting a negative emphasis on these two units as well. Unless you're stating that we should contradict ourselves. Gerik has little problems, from what I recall, waiting for the "erhem" C14 Hero Crest. Or the Master Seal, whichever floats your boat. It gives him more practical time to improve his stats since promotion leveling is a bit slower than Gerik's current state.

Using Gerik and Joshua is no problem. It's only when you go down into including Garcia that a shortage of promo items is created. Gerik and Joshua going in together might mean Garcia isn't used because there's not enough Hero Crests, but Garcia's not good to begin with, so it's not much of a loss.

Now I'll direct your attention to something else. What does Colm actually gain from a promotion? It's quite simple to answer, but let's re-think this: when does it have "absolute value?" Certainly it does put an improvement to his combat performance, but not that much. Colm is already high on AS levels and the only "true" benefit is probably +2 Str. Now before you throw another thing about mentioning the lack of the Lockpicks. Yes, I did this on purpose. You cannot tell me within C9-14 that we are seriously going to deplete two Lockpicks. It's quite a safe assumption here.

I never said anything about Lockpicks.

The most obvious benefit of promoting Colm would be that he gets to keep growing past L20. Without a promo item, he's stuck at L20 for like the last 6-7 chapters.

That's still a point higher though. And the growth is still higher than Garcia's to begin with. What exactly are we drawing from this?

Yeah, it's 1 point higher. His 10% higher growth will give him another full point higher 10 levels from now. Are you saying this is the difference between wanting a Speedwing and not needing one?

Partial strawman argument going on here. So we're assuming that we're promoting at C15 if I'm not mistaken? If so... how are we going to get to 20/1 if many of your units so far aren't even making the cut? Eirika route as well? Cormag is not that high from what I recall in the first place and his solution is an easy one: promote the damn man to a Wyvern Knight. Though now you're helping me prove another point that I'm trying to dig at this whole time. Look at that: if these units cannot even double sometimes, or even at all in the first place, then how are we suddenly penalizing Garcia for not doubling in the first place? Thank you CATS for helping me prove a point on an item that I only said could benefit him, or practically anyone. My main point was not the Speedwing. Now, I did say that he has some merit to using it due to his raw Str, but again you've shown that everyone wants it. If Garcia is seriously 2RKOing these buffoons while the others are, say, 3RKOing when they don't double... you're playing more into his favor.

Restating from earlier in the topic......

I also don't quite agree with everyone promoting by Ch 15. My runs where I had an average level of 21 in Ch 15 were a long time ago, back when I didn't use Seth at all, and liek, didn't field him after he stopped being forced. On my current run, with him thrown into the equation, everyone else's levels are lowered. I mean yeah, we're not having Seth solo chaps, but the disparity in combat abilities between him and everyone else is too large to ignore. It becomes a choice of either giving Seth more kills or holding back and lowering efficiency, since no one else will be able to get those kills as quickly as he can, and you end up with Seth getting a significantly higher portion of the kills than any other single unit. Right now it's looking like the only unit I have who might be able to actually promote at L20 in Ch 15 is Franz.

I'll be able to break out some numbers on this after I've collected more enemy stats.

Cormag is autolevelled to 11 on Eir Route. Yes, he can promote to Wyvern Knight. Or I could give him a Speedwing and promote to Wyvern Lord.

As for Garcia 2RKO'ing when everyone else is too, you might be quite right about that. Don't have enough energy to examine it atm, but it does indeed look quite plausible. Right now I'm just saying that he's not gonna get free Speedwings.

I'm already going to concede the Heroes and SMs. In particular, it is extremely difficult to double these things in the first place. For just about... everyone. Another thing, these so-called "weaksauce unpromoted enemies" are the most common until C19, which it will switch to more of the enemies promoted. Despite that, it's not like we can't leave a serious dent with a Hammer or even include the chances of a critical hit being landed with an A Garcia tacked onto him. Or Halberd. Pick your poison.

Ch 16 already has 18 promoted enemies (19 including the boss) vs 20 something unpromoted enemies. Considering how much stronger the promoted enemies are, they're definitely the more significant group. Then Ch 17 has more promoted enemies by a good bit. 25 unpromoted vs nearly 40 promoted.

Okay, two can easily play at this game. 20/1 Garcia has 17 Spd and 39 Atk. Oh fuck, I just won that one without even trying.

1 higher Spd and 0.5 higher Atk. I must say I'm underwhelmed.

Regardless, the point is that Dozla is indeed worth deploying when he can use Garm, so saying that lategame Dozla won't get used is not a valid point when we're discussing who gets to use Garm.

Okay, but you're still dodging a point: Garcia has a chance of nabbing EITHER ONE OF THESE, or even simply sharing them. Gerik at 20/1 has 18 Spd anyway so using Garm | Brave Axe is fairly redundant to begin with.

18 Spd isn't enough to double Ch 17's Heroes and Valks, the chap where the Brave Axe shows up in the first place. Gerik also doesn't consistently 2HKO Warriors, Paladins or Great Knights with the Killer Axe, so upgrading to the Brave Axe (which allows him to hit 3-4 times and kill) still helps him out. An early promoted Cavalier also has a good shot at B Axes.

Sure, Garcia can use either one of them. I'm just saying he's not the only one who can.

So what we are implying is that these three are always in play, correct? Very well then. This tier list might as well assume that it favors pre-promotes in the first place and place a further negative on a unit that requires a promotion.

No, I'm implying that if there's 3 Hero Crest units I want to use, but I have to drop one of them, Garcia is my first choice. Keeping Garcia requires me to go to my second choice, which is something I'd rather not do, since I'd prefer to just drop Garcia.

Wow, all that spending and I STILL have near 10k left over. The fucking tragedy. I'm so devestated by the fact that I...Still have plenty of money left.

No, add it all up:

10000G Ocean Seal for Colm

10000G Knight Crest for Kyle or Forde

15000G on Physic

15000G on Killers

5000G on Barrier

~6000G on Silver Blades

Totals up to 61000. So you'd have -8000 left over if you'd been saving every penny since the start of the game, which obviously isn't what you do, rather, you have plenty of weapons to buy before now, aswell. Promo items we aren't using? Let's see, 12 man team......

Eirika

Colm

Vanessa

Joshua, possibly replaced by Cormag later

Gerik

Kyle

Forde

Franz

Seth

Tethys

Moulder

Saleh/Lute/Artur

You may get to sell a Guiding Ring and/or an Elysian Whip/Hero Crest. I don't think it's going to turn the tables.

On top of that, we get the silver card immediately afterwards. You can stretch that money a long way, considering we effectively just doubled it with the silver card. Past Orson's chapter, we might as well have infinite money.

Sure, you get the Silver Card then, but none of this stuff is buyable after Ch 14, either. Cept Killers in Ch 17, but getting them now is still >>> getting them several chapters later.

[Colonel M]

Okay, minor nitpicks:

Using Gerik and Joshua is no problem. It's only when you go down into including Garcia that a shortage of promo items is created. Gerik and Joshua going in together might mean Garcia isn't used because there's not enough Hero Crests, but Garcia's not good to begin with, so it's not much of a loss.

Again, the problem does not just revolve around Garcia. It is, technically, a penalty against all three of them. Either that, or the resource is considered neutral. See, just because you're saying the phrase "Garcia's not good to begin with" hasn't proved anything. In fact... no one has actually PROVED that he's bad in his later stages of the career. As I've stated: him 2RKOing seems fairly logical pending on the enemies thrown in front of us. We still aren't 100% solidly sure that throwing "Garcia's not good enough to begin with" is something to throw around. Irregardless of that you are always assuming Gerik and Joshua (as in, both units) are in play and though their tier status says the words "likely", it does not define "definitely".

Regardless, I've also stated that there are few qualms with Gerik waiting, so it would not bash as much of a penalty. Otherwise I'd have to go back and penalize units like Lute, Artur, Natasha, and co. that share the Guiding Ring. Or the mass exodus of Knights that use the Knight Crest (Social and Gilliam, Amelia I guess).

Thinking an opportunity cost on stat boosters is one thing. To throw it onto a promotional item is a different issue I believe.

I never said anything about Lockpicks.

The most obvious benefit of promoting Colm would be that he gets to keep growing past L20. Without a promo item, he's stuck at L20 for like the last 6-7 chapters.

But going back to your statement:

Restating from earlier in the topic......

I also don't quite agree with everyone promoting by Ch 15. My runs where I had an average level of 21 in Ch 15 were a long time ago, back when I didn't use Seth at all, and liek, didn't field him after he stopped being forced. On my current run, with him thrown into the equation, everyone else's levels are lowered. I mean yeah, we're not having Seth solo chaps, but the disparity in combat abilities between him and everyone else is too large to ignore. It becomes a choice of either giving Seth more kills or holding back and lowering efficiency, since no one else will be able to get those kills as quickly as he can, and you end up with Seth getting a significantly higher portion of the kills than any other single unit. Right now it's looking like the only unit I have who might be able to actually promote at L20 in Ch 15 is Franz.

In other words, inconsistency here. We actually don't know if Colm will reach L20 before Ross does, or even in the timeframe before the Ocean Seal becomes available.

Cormag is autolevelled to 11 on Eir Route. Yes, he can promote to Wyvern Knight. Or I could give him a Speedwing and promote to Wyvern Lord.

Point being is just promote him to Wyvern Lord and he's good.

Ch 16 already has 18 promoted enemies (19 including the boss) vs 20 something unpromoted enemies. Considering how much stronger the promoted enemies are, they're definitely the more significant group. Then Ch 17 has more promoted enemies by a good bit. 25 unpromoted vs nearly 40 promoted.

Much of C17s enemies are on horseback though. Not all, true, but many of them are. The Great Knights are even easier targets since they're weak to both Hammers and Halberds (or Armorslayer | Zanbato).

As for AS, read up on Vykan's post with Duessel:

Let's assume by now that Duessel's gotten 3 levels (a mere 0.5 per chapter) and thus has a 90% chance at 13 spd.

Chapter 16: 25/35 (71%)

Chapter 17: 35/60 (58%)

Chapter 18: 37/42 (88%)

Chapter 19: 10/30 (30%) [66% if we exclude Heroes and Swordmasters since few people have 20-22 AS]

4 Chapters of almost entirely promoted enemies could probably get Duessel 3 levels (1.33 per chapter), which gives him an 81% chance at 14 spd.

Chapter 20: 37/50 (74%)

Final: 35/59 (59%)

Recall that this is just doubling/OHKO percentages, and doesn't translate directly into ORKO percentages. For instance, suppose Duessel has 50 crit on average. We can then suppose he crits about half the enemies he cannot ORKO normally. Now look at what that does to his percentages:

89-> 94%

81-> 90%

86-> 93%

76-> 88%

58 -> 79%

Just through using killer axes on stuff he cannot double/OHKO, Duessel can ORKO more than 4/5 of enemies in a map on average, which is valid even considering that killer weapons are only buyable in chapter 14. There's also some consideration for brave weapons (brave axe acquired in chp 17), reavers (buyable in chp 19) and S rank weapons, particularly the Garm (acquired in 14A/15B). Even simply sharing some of those resources, his killing %ages can easily jumpt to say, 85%, or 17 of every 20 enemy if you like fractions.

Perhaps not 100% valid, but I wouldn't doubt some of the information in here.

1 higher Spd and 0.5 higher Atk. I must say I'm underwhelmed.

Regardless, the point is that Dozla is indeed worth deploying when he can use Garm, so saying that lategame Dozla won't get used is not a valid point when we're discussing who gets to use Garm.

Case in point, you were assuming that it was -guaranteed- when Garcia can still make capable use of it. 1 higher Spd is possible to make a difference here.

18 Spd isn't enough to double Ch 17's Heroes and Valks, the chap where the Brave Axe shows up in the first place. Gerik also doesn't consistently 2HKO Warriors, Paladins or Great Knights with the Killer Axe, so upgrading to the Brave Axe (which allows him to hit 3-4 times and kill) still helps him out. An early promoted Cavalier also has a good shot at B Axes.

Sure, Garcia can use either one of them. I'm just saying he's not the only one who can.

Valks are still vulnerable to Horse-weak weapons. They're somewhat dangerous but nothing like their FE6-7 counterpart. As for Heroes we have Swordreaver | Slayer that still can be accounted for.

No, I'm implying that if there's 3 Hero Crest units I want to use, but I have to drop one of them, Garcia is my first choice. Keeping Garcia requires me to go to my second choice, which is something I'd rather not do, since I'd prefer to just drop Garcia.

Allow me to shed some light on your theory:

-Upper Mid-

Lute

Artur

Saleh

Ephraim

Forde

<Joshua>

Innes

<Garcia>

Duessel

Cormag

What an... interesting theory of yours. Very interesting. BTW, Garcia > Innes isn't much of a challenge either, so might as well consider these two as neck to neck.

Now there is some thought of doubt on keeping Dozla low as well. He might have a motive to rise. Not as high as Garcia, but an excuse to jump around a bit.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

In other words, inconsistency here. We actually don't know if Colm will reach L20 before Ross does, or even in the timeframe before the Ocean Seal becomes available

of course he will

Colm has an EXP boost, and doesn't have to wade through the trainee class like Ross does

[Colonel M]

of course he will

Colm has an EXP boost, and doesn't have to wade through the trainee class like Ross does

I also don't quite agree with everyone promoting by Ch 15. My runs where I had an average level of 21 in Ch 15 were a long time ago, back when I didn't use Seth at all, and liek, didn't field him after he stopped being forced. On my current run, with him thrown into the equation, everyone else's levels are lowered. I mean yeah, we're not having Seth solo chaps, but the disparity in combat abilities between him and everyone else is too large to ignore. It becomes a choice of either giving Seth more kills or holding back and lowering efficiency, since no one else will be able to get those kills as quickly as he can, and you end up with Seth getting a significantly higher portion of the kills than any other single unit. Right now it's looking like the only unit I have who might be able to actually promote at L20 in Ch 15 is Franz.

So I'm not 100% sure I want to stand by the EXP boost statement. Even if he does get to Level 20 before Ross, it doesn't matter as we've said... 100 times now because Ross can wait until C14 anyway.

[Jaybee]

I remember Mekkah had something up about funds being jack shit in FE8. Gimme a while to dig it up.

[Colonel M]

Found it. Vykan had it but I can't exactly recall who "wrote it". Guess it was Mekkah though:

Who cares about gold in FE8 again?

You get 50k total in fluid cash, and then 20k more from selling gems to make that 70k.

Then, you get 17 promo items worth 5k, plus the Ch16 Master Seal for 10k. Assuming you are using like 7 dudes who promote, that leaves 10 promo items of 5k plus the Master Seal, so that is another 60k, for a total of 130k.

Then, Knoll and Ewan are terrible, so we don't care about Dark magic. Luna (2k), Eclipse (2k), Nosferatu (1.6k), and then either a Fenrir or another Nosferatu from Lyon I (so let's say 3k on average), and then Ch19 gives you another Fenrir but we won't count that for now. Another 8.5k or so right here. Then there's the heavier versions of other tomes which nobody really wants to use (weighs them down too much, and at this point they have 30 uses of S-rank weapons anyway if they want to OHKO things). That should net you another 3k at least. So this paragraph gets us about 12k, bringing the total to 142k or so.

Then we have superfluous stat boosters that can be sold without anyone caring, each worth 4k. 2 Secret Books, a Goddess Icon, two Talismen, and we have another 16k. Round it out with highly ranked bows that no one is likely to use, and we can safely set aside 160k. Then, for the last quarter of the game, we have the Silver Card, so any money's worth at that point is doubled. So we can probably gamble we have around 200k if not more.

Even if we were using 8 units total, that still gives each unit 25k to spend. Take off Joshua's 5k promotion, and he still has enough for 15 Killing Edges, or 300 uses throughout the game. He doesn't nearly need that - he likely won't even need ten full ones (200 uses just for Ch17+), and can use Iron/Steel for the rest freely without being a fundings impediment.

[-Cynthia-]

Just for the record, let's not forget about Dozla's Hit issues. He isn't running into 100% true even with WTA, and with WTN or WTD his hit rates can become very shaky.

Edited September 12, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[CATS]

Again, the problem does not just revolve around Garcia. It is, technically, a penalty against all three of them. Either that, or the resource is considered neutral. See, just because you're saying the phrase "Garcia's not good to begin with" hasn't proved anything. In fact... no one has actually PROVED that he's bad in his later stages of the career. As I've stated: him 2RKOing seems fairly logical pending on the enemies thrown in front of us. We still aren't 100% solidly sure that throwing "Garcia's not good enough to begin with" is something to throw around. Irregardless of that you are always assuming Gerik and Joshua (as in, both units) are in play and though their tier status says the words "likely", it does not define "definitely".

Regardless, I've also stated that there are few qualms with Gerik waiting, so it would not bash as much of a penalty. Otherwise I'd have to go back and penalize units like Lute, Artur, Natasha, and co. that share the Guiding Ring. Or the mass exodus of Knights that use the Knight Crest (Social and Gilliam, Amelia I guess).

Thinking an opportunity cost on stat boosters is one thing. To throw it onto a promotional item is a different issue I believe.

Well, Gerik's high tier, and his stats come from his massive bases, so he's even mostly safe from getting tossed due to RNG screwage. I think it's pretty safe to assume that the player wants to use him.

For Joshua, you're right, he's only slightly higher than Garcia. I keep forgetting that he dropped to Upper Mid because it was never explained why the drop happened. Not sure how things are looking for him here, and I can't be bothered to really examine his position atm, as that's honestly a whole different debaet anyways. However, you also get only two Knight Crests on Eir Route, so using Garcia and Ross in conjunction with each other is guaranteed to create promotion issues anyways on that route.

It also needs to be explained why Ross is being used, as he's only lower mid. Assuming that we're still talking about Garcia rising, not Dozla vs Ross.

Also, opportunity cost on promo items absolutely makes sense. Promotion boosts units' stats by alot more than a stat booster would.

In other words, inconsistency here. We actually don't know if Colm will reach L20 before Ross does, or even in the timeframe before the Ocean Seal becomes available.

I was just talking about promoting Colm at all, since you only get one Oceal Seal. But if you want to talk about early promotion, again, Colm obviously benefits, so w/e. And yeah, I could see Colm getting L20 around Ch 15 thanks to his Exp boost. IIRC he has to be 6 levels higher than other combat units before he's gaining the same Exp as they are.

Much of C17s enemies are on horseback though. Not all, true, but many of them are. The Great Knights are even easier targets since they're weak to both Hammers and Halberds (or Armorslayer | Zanbato).

They have so much Hp/Def that even those weapons won't consistently OHKO them. Well, except the two Valkyries, but they also actually have Avo and the Halberd's accuracy is balls. 23 Garcia has ~50 displayed hit against them when using Halberd. The issue also isn't doubling the Valkyries so much as getting doubled; they have 16-17 AS.

Perhaps not 100% valid, but I wouldn't doubt some of the information in here.

According to that post, Duessel's overall doubling percentage across Ch 16-19 is 61.75%. Excluding Ch 18 since most of its enemies are defenseless pathetic eggs (16, 17 and 19 are the chapters with actual fighting), then his overall doubling percentage across 16, 17 and 19 is 53%. I don't see how that passage is supposed to convince anyone that low AS isn't an issue.

Case in point, you were assuming that it was -guaranteed- when Garcia can still make capable use of it. 1 higher Spd is possible to make a difference here.

Ofcourse Garcia can use it. The point is that he doesn't have a monopoly.

Valks are still vulnerable to Horse-weak weapons. They're somewhat dangerous but nothing like their FE6-7 counterpart. As for Heroes we have Swordreaver | Slayer that still can be accounted for.

There's only one Swordslayer and everyone that can use it wants it against those Heroes. Swordreaver doesn't get the tripled Mt and only half of them are using swords anyway, so w/e.

Found it. Vykan had it but I can't exactly recall who "wrote it". Guess it was Mekkah though:

That's taking into account all the funds you get across the entire game, and acting as if all that cash is available to you right from the start. I'm talking only about Ch 14 and before, and the distribution of items/money is skewed towards the latter half of the game.

Just for the record, let's not forget about Dozla's Hit issues. He isn't running into 100% true even with WTA, and with WTN or WTD his hit rates can become very shaky.

Ross's hit is only slightly better, unless he's able to land his Garcia support.

[Mekkah]

Joshua dropped to Upper Mid mostly because smash proved him worse than Lute/Artur overall. Of course I could put all three back in High, or assume a tier gap between the magicians and him. I also should fix the tier gap between Kyle and Forde...maybe all of them in High, with the order being Lute > Artur > Kyle > Forde > Joshua.

[grandjackal]

I indeed did. You asking this now proves that you haven't read all my posts. Look at the following.

Chapter 12 (Eirika):

Lv10 Ross, B Garcia (you don't want to ahead and tell me they already have an A support at this point, do you?):

29.6 HP, 16.0 STR, 8.3 SKL, 9.4 SPD, 15.2 LUK, 8.5 DEF, 3.6 RES, 10 CON

Iron Axe: 26.0 Atk, 109.2 Hit, 14.15 Crt, 9.4 AS, 44.0 Avd

Steel Axe: 29.0 Atk, 99.2 Hit, 14.15 Crt, 4.4 AS, 34.0 Avd

Battle Axe: 30.0 Atk, 94.2 Hit, 19.15 Crt, 4.4 AS, 34.0 Avd

Base level Dozla (+ Speedwing):

43.0 HP, 16.0 STR, 11.0 SKL, 11.0 SPD, 4.0 LUK, 11.0 DEF, 6.0 RES, 16 CON

Iron Axe: 24.0 Atk, 99.0 Hit, 20.5 Crt, 11.0 AS, 26.0 Avd

Steel Axe: 27.0 Atk, 89.0 Hit, 20.5 Crt, 11.0 AS, 26.0 Avd

Battle Axe: 28.0 Atk, 84.0 Hit, 25.5 Crt, 11.0 AS, 26.0 Avd

As you might notice, the B is there. And Dozla can easily pull superior offense by using a stronger weapon. Ross using a stronger weapon actually hurts his offense because he doesn't double shit with them. I actually even listed enemy comparisons in that post, so click "find post" to read those.

You gave him a speed wing -_-;; Ross got nothing. The Speedwing is a problem, because Gilliam would like a word with him. In fact, so would Deussal.

Nevermind 2 levels and a promotion, I'd have Ross doing better anyways.

Are you done overhyping their support now in a depth of detail that no-one asked for? Thanks.

As I already explained, fire x fire may be a nice combination in itself, but it doesn't do very much for Garcia, because Garcia's offensive stats aren't his issue. His AS is.

Because addiing hit and crit doesn't help, and lord knows helping avoid doesn't matter. *rolls eyes* I totally forgot Dozla's support helps boost Garcia's AS, how silly of me...

Also if Garcia's AS is a problem, that's another person Dozla's pissed off. Nevermind that at promotion as a hero, Garcia has 12 AS, something Dozla needs 8 levels to get...If Garcia's got speed issues, Dozla's SOL. Even a speed wing only brings him to 11. At this point, I'd be ready to consider the wing on him a waste. Level 20/1 Gilliam could technically put it to better use.

Except he could not, because I already factored in his "leveling speed".

What advantages does Ross have over Dozla, except for very slightly winning offense when being restricted to iron weapons when both don't double, and mostly superfluous CrtEvd? Do tell me.

You gave Ross 10 levels in exchange for giving Dozla a redonculous 7. Dozla's not a guy who's like 4 levels above Ross, he's a full 10 and promoted.

Why do with a battle axe what you can do with iron anyways? You also seem to have forgotten the avoid lead, of which is a gaping 18 above him, in 3 turns about to be 23. He's practically got 50 avoid, he'd be cutting most accurate weapons down to the 20s in hit. Even if the enemy had around 10 skill, it would be 40s at worst. With 2 RNs, this is made exponential due to real hit. Dozla can't even reduce weapon accuracy down to 50s aside from like inaccurate axes, and that's not even factoring in enemy skill.

Also, this is about Ross vs. Dozla. No-one cares about whether or not Garcia beats Dozla, because all this proves is Garcia > Dozla.

Garcia keeps getting brought up and how he sucks later, when it absolutely isn't true. He absolutely hammers Dozla. If Garcia's not worth are time, neither is Dozla. At least with Ross we get results eventually.

Waterwalk isn't the magical trump card that beats Dozla - you never really need it, fliers do it a lot better than him and Dozla is actually capable of waterwalking as well. Actually, Dozla even has an advatage over Ross - Dozla can place himself on peaks when he feels like it for a nice juicy +2 DEF and +40 Avd. Ross can only do this after promotion.

It certainly makes things glide by a lot smoother. You seem to forget no one else has waterwalk aside from Ross until Dozla shows up, and that fliers are not known for flying in to do combat but rather to get stuff. I'd love to see you try to fight the pirates in the water of Port Kiris with the pegasi. I really would. The fact is that it allows him to do what fliers could do, except he is actually capable of fending for himself thanks to terrain and lack of weapon weaknesses.

As for Dozla, the only place this really implies is in Eirika's chapter where Saleh joins in the mountains. There are no mountain maps until the time Ross is well promoted anyways. On top of this, it's more constricting than useful as you don't actually have to cross the mountains to get anywhere. Spiders will be out in due time (not that Dozla would want to fight him in the mountains, he'd have under 50 hit with iron alone), gargoyles fly at you anyways, and other parts with enemies are rather wide open. Basically Dozla's mountain advantage her is only applicable for when you are purposefully having him get into the mountain to have one enemy run into him, which is a rather impractical strategy.

Except Ross' leveling speed is hardly any faster at all anymore once he hits around level 15 or 16. At least, there's no way Ross is getting thrice as many levels as Dozla is.

Dozla is 10 levels higher and promoted, you gave him bloody seven levels! It's not like Dozla's only 4 levels above him.

Huh, really? Actually, Dozla still looks a litte better to me than Ross. Their offense is basically the same (yeah, he has 1 more SPD, but he still loses AS from anything heavier than 13, like Steel Axes, to the point where Dozla leads again), and Dozla has a lot more concrete durability while Ross has a little more Avd. However, Ross' Avd is only reliable when he has WTA. If he faces neutral WT (like, against magic) or WTD, his Avd won't do much. Dozla doesn't care about Avd much, because he can take a ton of hits and still not die. And if you promote Ross early, Ross starts to level so slow that it's hardly any faster than Dozla's leveling speed anymore, to the point at which Dozla's better growths actually are good enough to keep them roughly equal. So if you do this, you reduce Dozla's winning time, but Ross will then never actually beat Dozla.

51 avoid reduces iron axe hit to 24. Even a guy with 10 skill only has 44, which is below 50 for 2 RNs to work with him. Every 2 attacks misses Ross. Dozla can't even reduce iron axe hit to 50 at that level, and enemy skill would pump it to around the 70s. Nevermind a Gerik support for Ross could effectively cut that avoid down to 34. Basically 2/3 shots aimed at Ross will miss, while every basically 3/4 shots will hit Dozla. Ross does laugh heartily at lances. He naturally reduces an iron lance to 24, WTD gives him 14 displayed. Dozla reduces it to 42. With 10 skill, Ross at worst sees 34 hit, Dozla's still above the 50s. Iron swords Ross reduces to 50s while Dozla's stuck in the 80s. With 10 skill, Dozla can't actually dodge a swordie. A Gerik B can actually cut all hit for Ross down to below the 50s, as these are among the most accurate weapons in the game. Basically, Ross has ways to become nigh untouchable, while Dozla needs quite a bit more help just being able to have usable dodge.

Dozla might be more durable, but it is sort of hard to boast when you're getting hit all the time.

On top of this, Dozla is still severely overleveled, and is 7 levels above Ross. Ross is still able to level at a reasonable pace considering.

Do you have some weird mindset of beating the game using nothing but irons? Stronger weapons are there, and in fact, Dozla can use them a lot more efficiently than Ross can because Ross loses AS whenever he tries something like a steel or battle axe. This means that Dozla doesn't lose offense just because Ross has a mere +3 Atk lead when they use the same weapons.

Ross has a 3 Str lead naturally really. What Dozla needs steel to do (along with further gimping his hit), Ross can do with iron, along with more accuracy. Why use something when I don't need to? Basically if Dozla needs steel to kill something, Ross can easily just use iron to do the same thing. This is also less risky due to more hit.

This would also mean more efficient ranged combat with hand axes, better accuracy with the killer axe. Basically with the offense lead, he doesn't need to use weapons that would hurt him otherwise.

And again, Ross' Avd lead doesn't do shit against accurate enemies, like heroes or magic users, of which there are plenty in the later chapters. He'll need concrete durability to withstand those, of which Dozla has a lot more than Ross.

Ross's avoid can cut Demon Surge to 40 hit (Gerik down to 30), and Shadowshot down to 20 (Gerik 10). Dozla on the other hand can't even get Demon Surge to below 60. Ross can basically dodge 1 of ever 2 Demon surges, while Dozla..Most certainly won't be.

Do explain how Ross crossing the River helps to complete C7 faster or more efficiently. He can carry Eirika over it if Vanessa doesn't feel like it, I guess, but that's about it?

He isn't, but the fact he's able to help get the map completed as fast as just having Seth solo it should sort of hint you in on how helpful he is.

I didn't even think about transporting Eirika by pirate rescue. Well, apparently Ross can get it done faster! Thank you, Raymond ^^

*facedesk*

Either you're intentionally completely misunderstanding everything I say, or...

Why would you need to leave anyone behind to deal with the pirates? They follow you around. You'd meet them down at the boss, near the village, at the latest if you didn't kill them beforehand, and they arrive there quickly enough without the player having to wait for them. Unless you leave someone behind to intentionally lure them somewhere else, of course.

Ross could basically have them killed with a couple archers and the dark mage gone. Basically by the time your team gets down there, there is actually less in your way between your group and the boss.

Also, do explain how Ross killing the pirates while they're still in the water is more efficient than anyone out of your team killing them once they've left the water. Unless you're attacking them with someone like lolNeimi, taking them on at the mainland is just as efficient as wiping them out earlier than that. It doesn't slow your main group down in any way. Also, I'd be surprised to see Ross be capable of taking on like half the map all by himself once he actually arrives at the other side of the water.

Water terrain is like having a full avoid A A support as it grants 30 avoid. Level 7 Ross has 60 avoid in the water. A steel bow would only have 10 hit before enemy skill is involved. Even the enemy had 10 skill, this would be 30 hit, and I doubt the enemy has 10 skill on archers. On top of that, let's say the archer has 8 Str. With steel this would be +2 damage with Ross's defense in mind. It would take 3 shots to kill him, but considering they have less than satisfactory hit on Ross, the chances alone are pretty damn slim. This is also negligeable damage, as he could just suck down a vulnery to get it back. Fire mages are similar, though they'd have better hit. Again though, it's negligeable damage. Then once he has some of the rabble out of the way, he can dare go on land, as few would be left to fight him. By now, your main forces are catching up, and most of the map is not a problem.

So yeah, certainly sounds more likely than your fliers doing so. As for how much avoid this is, Colm couldn't pull similar avoid off until he was 20/3. Seth would need to be level 10 with a BB support with two avoid boosting affinities.

Again, what does Garcia > Dozla have to do with anything regarding Ross vs. Dozla? It's not like Ross would be the one allowing Garcia to promote.

It's constantly brought up that Garcia is garbage past earlygame. If Garcia is garbage, then Dozla doesn't deserve to see the light of day.

Oh, so you want to waste vulneries just for that? Fine, have it your way. Still isn't very impressive.

You cannot be serious! Are you that stingy? Will you go that far to sandbag Ross? not give him vulneries? Nevermind these warships even packing iron ballistae are only doing 5+str damage to a level 8 Ross. To 2RKO him (blasting him out of the water as you put it), they'd need 9 Str, of which I highly doubt they have. This is if they're using hte strongest ballistae available. With a normal ballistae, they're doing -2+str damage, to 2RKO they'd need 16 Str. BOSSES don't even have that yet.

I CAN'T believe you are gangbanging over vulnery use.

It's just that waterwalking has hardly any real use before Dozla shows up. And as I said, your fliers can do it better anyway. This is not fliers vs. Ross, but Ross' "waterwalking utility" isn't unique to himself, like you seem to claim, and Dozla actually has it as well, so it's a moot point actually.

It seems to have profound effects to me. The fliers also can't do it "better", they can fly better. Waterwalk has combat use, and fliers can't utilize terrain. Fliers are better at flying away from danger, Ross is better at getting his boots wet and going INTO danger, because he's more than capable of making it out alive.

This point was brought to you by the man who hypes mountain use prior to Ross promoting, of which is a grand total of 1 more map where it's not even that useful anyways.

Your strategy for C7 seemed to suggest to skip it using Ross. Using Seth for this is more efficient, so what?

Don't you mean just as efficient? You also made a suggestion of which it might actually be more efficient with Ross.

Are you done putting utter nonsense into my mouth even though I never said anything like that? I didn't say that they're better against the pirates or archers, I just said that saving the village is not a point for Ross because Tana, who is forced into this chapter and thus always there, can do it as well (she actually even is faster at reaching the village than Ross is despite having to avoid combat), so we'd get the Rapier anyway. Ross can kill the enemies there earlier than everyone else can, but the goal here is to kill all enemies anyway, and the main group can also kill those enemies without Ross' help (I mean, as in, if Ross or any other unit just went the regular way as well instead of going over the water) without needing more turns to finish, so this point is worthless for Ross.

Except Ross can take out most of the map on his way down anyways. Fine, Tana can get the house though her Vanessa and Ross are the ones who can get their in time/kill the pirates anyways. Now who else can do this? I only see three people, and one of them's a pirate.

The fact is that none of these activities that Ross is capable of (except for combat, of course, before you start that nonsense again...) help completing the chapters any faster than you could do it without him.

So he can only contribute good as otherwise he's neutral? Sounds good to me. Why's he in lower mid?

Did you know I was talking about Dozla when I said that? Also, no, Ross doesn't need to fix his offense. He needs to fix his durability.

Also, you NEVER read my posts at all. Read this:

Chapter 12 (Eirika):

Lv10 Ross, B Garcia (you don't want to ahead and tell me they already have an A support at this point, do you?):

29.6 HP, 16.0 STR, 8.3 SKL, 9.4 SPD, 15.2 LUK, 8.5 DEF, 3.6 RES, 10 CON

Iron Axe: 26.0 Atk, 109.2 Hit, 14.15 Crt, 9.4 AS, 44.0 Avd

Steel Axe: 29.0 Atk, 99.2 Hit, 14.15 Crt, 4.4 AS, 34.0 Avd

Battle Axe: 30.0 Atk, 94.2 Hit, 19.15 Crt, 4.4 AS, 34.0 Avd

Base level Dozla (+ Speedwing):

43.0 HP, 16.0 STR, 11.0 SKL, 11.0 SPD, 4.0 LUK, 11.0 DEF, 6.0 RES, 16 CON

Iron Axe: 24.0 Atk, 99.0 Hit, 20.5 Crt, 11.0 AS, 26.0 Avd

Steel Axe: 27.0 Atk, 89.0 Hit, 20.5 Crt, 11.0 AS, 26.0 Avd

Battle Axe: 28.0 Atk, 84.0 Hit, 25.5 Crt, 11.0 AS, 26.0 Avd

randomBonewalker (Iron Lance): 15 Atk, 90 Hit, 2 Crt, 4 AS | 29 HP, 9 Avd, 5 Def, 2 Res

IronAxe!Ross ORKOs (2RKOs with heavier weapons), gets 6RKO'd at 36 DHit in return (46 with heavier weapons)

Dozla ORKOs with any weapon, gets 15RKO'd at 54 DHit in return

So basically both don't give a shit with these. Why would you have Ross use a heavier weapon when they go down with iron anyways?

Want a tougher enemy? Here we go.

randomBael (Sharp Claw): 26 Atk, 80 Hit, 3 Crt, 4 AS | 33 HP, 10 Avd, 8 Def, 2 Res

IronAxe!Ross ORKOs (2RKOs with heavier weapons), gets 2RKO'd at 36 DHit in return (46 with heavier weapons)

Dozla ORKOs with Steel Axe and up (leaves at 1 HP with Iron Axe), gets 3RKO'd at 54 DHit in return (turns into a 4RKO whenever Dozla's DEF increases by any amount, for example when standing on a forest or Peak)

Again, see no reason to not use iron since they'd die to it anyways. As for mountains, the thing is that if Dozla is fighting them on a mountain, chances are they are on a mountain too (unless for some damned reason you're taking that long to cross an actual mountain to fight a spider on normal ground, of which they'd just chase into the mountain after you anyways). Suddenly, Dozla's not 1RKOing with steel. The 40 avoid the mountian gives cuts steel axe Dozla down to 45 displayed hit. So there's actually a good chance Dozla's missing twice on a 2RKO. This would mean it would take him basically 2 turns to kill the damn thing.

Even tougher? Look at this.

randomGargoyle (Javelin): 19 Atk, 77 Hit, 3 Crt, 7 AS | 29 HP, 15 Avd, 9 Def, 2 Res

Ross 2RKOs with any weapon, gets 4RKO'd at 23 DHit (33 when using heavier weapons; turns into a 3RKO if his DEF happens to round down)

Dozla ORKOs with any weapon, gets 8RKO'd at 41 DHit

No he is not. With a hand axe (well, these guys ARE using javelins), he can't quite 1RKO them. On top of this, this is assuming I gave the speed wing to Dozla, of which he's 3RKOing with a hand axe, of which Ross would be 2RKOing.

Monsters are weak. How 'bout a cavalier from C13?

randomCavalier (Steel Sword): 18 Atk, 93 Hit, 4 Crt, 7 AS | 31 HP, 18 Avd, 9 Def, 3 Res

Ross 2RKOs with any weapon at at best 81 DHit, gets 4RKO'd at 59 DHit (69 with heavier weapons; turns into a 3RKO if his DEF happens to round down)

Dozla ORKOs with Steel Axe and up at 61 DHit, gets 8RKO'd at 77 DHit

Again you just assume I gave Dozla the speed wing and I gave Ross nothing.

On top of this thanks to supports, Ross has about 70 hit displayed with the Halberd (yes, this is factored with an A Garcia, he SHOULD have it now). Dozla unfortunately hovers around the 50s. Even without the support, Ross will have a better chance of hitting this guy. So Dozla needs a speedwing, Ross apparently only needs the Halberd.

Dozla ORKOs any of these enemies. Ross doesn't. What does this mean? Exactly! Dozla has better offense than Ross at that point, which is exactly what I have said!

Yet without it, Ross actually has better offense. So Dozla needs favoritism to beat Ross without.

Also, Ross can't even use better weapons without actually crippling his offense instead of improving it. CON issues, you know.

It's great that he doesn't even really need to. Heavier weapons are usually more inaccurate as well, so in a way it actually DOES criple Dozla's offense in the sense that he actually might miss what he's hitting. I'd take a bit of speed loss over just flat out missing far more often.

Oi, promoted Ross has an offense lead! The world will come to an end.

Dozla has B Garcia as well btw

If we agree chapters generally take 7 turns to complete, it takes 3 chapters and 4 turns for Dozla and Garcia to C. Basically Scorched Sands. Then it takes near 5 chapters, so Dozla doesn't even feel the real meat of the bonuses until the game is damn near over.

Also, even if Ross had no competition for his promotion item, this doesn't change the fact that he has to use it and thus consume a big chunk of money (or call it resources). If we use Dozla instead of Ross, we don't need that promotion item, so we can spend that amount of money (or call it resources) on something else, like an upgrade item for Dozla. Even though I don't think a speedwing is an issue at all (Eirika route Duessel isn't very impressive since he comes so late, and lolGilliam. Additionally, doesn't someone else want the item Ross consumes as well, hm?), if this for some reason blazes your balls, I can as well give him a Dracoshield instead. With that much DEF, he becomes even more immortal against physical enemies than he already is, and all Ross then has to compare is a laughable little offense lead.

Taking resources from many>taking it from 1 other guy who doesn't even need it to be useful. You say Deussal isn't impressive in Eirika's route, though he starts with 12 speed, something Dozla doesn't get for 8 levels. On the other hand, I could give Deussal the wing for 14 AS. If Dozla having the same speed as Deussal in Eirika's route when he shows up is "impressive' (aren't you the backwards type), giving the wing to Deussal for 14 AS must be fucking righteous. Gilliam does put the wing to better use, as 20/1 he has 12 AS, while Dozla using it only gets 11 AS. This also benefits a man who is far more durable than anyone not named Deussal have offense, but he is more durable than Dozla in every single way. I am DEAD SERIOUS

20/1 Gilliam

43 HP, 18 Str (2 more than Dozla base), 13 Skill (2 more), 10 Speed (1 more, lolDozla is slower than a general), 7 Luck(3 more), 19 Defense(8 more), 9 Resistance (2 more), Swords Axes and Lances.

Oh my god, let's review. First off, Gilliam's doing with a lance what Dozla is doing with axes. He has 6 more hit. He has 1 more speed (LOL). He has 5 more avoid. 7 more defense, and 2 more resistance. On top of this he has FULL triangle for having an even better avoid, hit, and power offense. He destroys Dozla in every way possible not crit. Giving him the wing and Dozla the wing, Dozla would need to hit a speed lead is past level 9. Long damn while just to get a decimal lead.

Oi, because every single enemy in this game is a magic user. Besides, Dozla still has a lot more HP to work with than Ross. Even if Ross has better chances to dodge those attacks, something like those insane 35 Atk Demon Surges from the Gorgons will likely just 2HKO him. Dozla will likely be able to cut it to a 3HKO.

So even if they're about the same against magic users, Dozla is godly durable against physical enemies while Ross is merely "okay".

You seem to have every physical enemy mixed up with swordies, the only possible people who could actually have relevent hit on Ross, of who wil basically never be able to miss Dozla's big fat ass.

Face it, Ross has an avoid lead too much to just ignore. It's more than just "ok"

Actually, Ross having better Hit is a result of his supports. His supports aren't amplifying it, like you're implying.

Also, we all know Dozla has some minor hit issues, but he's fine as long as he's not got WTD. And we already know that Ross beats Dozla offensively some time after the latter joined, so why are you actually bringing this up yet again?

Yes, Ross actually has ways to bring his hit from similar to Dozla, despite being 10 levels lower. It's an advantage Ross has and Dozla doesn't. Compounded by hte fact that Dozla's affinity kills acc boosts. What you don't seem to get is that Dozla will miss far more often than Ross. Example, a 14 AS Merc can cut Dozla with an iron axe down to 57 hit if he uses iron, the most accurate of weapons. Ross will have about 72. Ross can fight against the weapon triangle, Dozla can't.

Read above. If Ross promotes at level 16, he'll never beat Dozla in anything.

If we give Dozla the speedwing...for some reason.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Kuja

[Progenitus]

Joshua dropped to Upper Mid mostly because smash proved him worse than Lute/Artur overall. Of course I could put all three back in High, or assume a tier gap between the magicians and him. I also should fix the tier gap between Kyle and Forde...maybe all of them in High, with the order being Lute > Artur > Kyle > Forde > Joshua.

I personally think Kyle > Lute/Artur, although those two should be > Forde/Joshua imo.

I also changed my mind about Forde/Joshua into upper mid.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14609&view=findpost&p=558644

I still think there should be a somewhat noticeable gap between Kyle and Forde, since they were originally right next to each other. Kyle will generally have a bit more durability and att, while forde will generally have a manini spd lead.

[Colonel M]

Again, the problem does not just revolve around Garcia. It is, technically, a penalty against all three of them. Either that, or the resource is considered neutral. See, just because you're saying the phrase "Garcia's not good to begin with" hasn't proved anything. In fact... no one has actually PROVED that he's bad in his later stages of the career. As I've stated: him 2RKOing seems fairly logical pending on the enemies thrown in front of us. We still aren't 100% solidly sure that throwing "Garcia's not good enough to begin with" is something to throw around. Irregardless of that you are always assuming Gerik and Joshua (as in, both units) are in play and though their tier status says the words "likely", it does not define "definitely".

Regardless, I've also stated that there are few qualms with Gerik waiting, so it would not bash as much of a penalty. Otherwise I'd have to go back and penalize units like Lute, Artur, Natasha, and co. that share the Guiding Ring. Or the mass exodus of Knights that use the Knight Crest (Social and Gilliam, Amelia I guess).

Thinking an opportunity cost on stat boosters is one thing. To throw it onto a promotional item is a different issue I believe.

Well, Gerik's high tier, and his stats come from his massive bases, so he's even mostly safe from getting tossed due to RNG screwage. I think it's pretty safe to assume that the player wants to use him.

For Joshua, you're right, he's only slightly higher than Garcia. I keep forgetting that he dropped to Upper Mid because it was never explained why the drop happened. Not sure how things are looking for him here, and I can't be bothered to really examine his position atm, as that's honestly a whole different debaet anyways. However, you also get only two Knight Crests on Eir Route, so using Garcia and Ross in conjunction with each other is guaranteed to create promotion issues anyways on that route.

Wait... how does the Knight Crest situation dig into Garcia and Ross? You're losing me here. We also understand the player wants to use Gerik. The thing is I can still make Gerik good (look at those 20/1 stats). He's not desperate for an S Rank in Axes anyway since his AS is fairly high to begin with. Yes, I won't deny that he can use it, but simply stating that it isn't a negative to have Gerik wait for a Hero Crest either.

It also needs to be explained why Ross is being used, as he's only lower mid. Assuming that we're still talking about Garcia rising, not Dozla vs Ross.

Well, I don't have to point to Ross vs. Garcia. It kind of pinpoints both directions, but another thing to remember he DOES have the option of Dozla and Seth supporting him. Gilliam Bojangles is hard to think on and Neimi's situation is worse than everyone.

Also, opportunity cost on promo items absolutely makes sense. Promotion boosts units' stats by alot more than a stat booster would.

Then the next Gerik | Joshua discussion, or any discussion for that matter, should press onto this. Especially on the latter's case.

I'll toss out the Colm situation, but the promotion time of some characters should be pointed out slightly to Garcia's favor as well.

Much of C17s enemies are on horseback though. Not all, true, but many of them are. The Great Knights are even easier targets since they're weak to both Hammers and Halberds (or Armorslayer | Zanbato).

They have so much Hp/Def that even those weapons won't consistently OHKO them. Well, except the two Valkyries, but they also actually have Avo and the Halberd's accuracy is balls. 23 Garcia has ~50 displayed hit against them when using Halberd. The issue also isn't doubling the Valkyries so much as getting doubled; they have 16-17 AS.

Two things. First off, we know they aren't scoring OHKOes. Second, the hit is pendant on if he gets supports or not. I also doubt your assumption due to Garcia having about the same Skl as AS, so that gets canceled out. Then, Luck probably gets cancelled out. Halberd has 60 Acc in the first place.

Perhaps not 100% valid, but I wouldn't doubt some of the information in here.

According to that post, Duessel's overall doubling percentage across Ch 16-19 is 61.75%. Excluding Ch 18 since most of its enemies are defenseless pathetic eggs (16, 17 and 19 are the chapters with actual fighting), then his overall doubling percentage across 16, 17 and 19 is 53%. I don't see how that passage is supposed to convince anyone that low AS isn't an issue.

That's still over half the enemies. And saying that C18 is a scratch-out isn't 100% true because IIRC some of those eggs hatch anyway. Not all of them are defenseless pathetic eggs.

Found it. Vykan had it but I can't exactly recall who "wrote it". Guess it was Mekkah though:

That's taking into account all the funds you get across the entire game, and acting as if all that cash is available to you right from the start. I'm talking only about Ch 14 and before, and the distribution of items/money is skewed towards the latter half of the game.

Except some of these are rather ridiculous. If we get the Silver Card and we're able to buy these later at half the price, then we can at least afford to give everyone a Killer weapon or a Silver Blade. Speaking of that... where the hell did you get the assumption on the latter?

Just for the record, let's not forget about Dozla's Hit issues. He isn't running into 100% true even with WTA, and with WTN or WTD his hit rates can become very shaky.

Ross's hit is only slightly better, unless he's able to land his Garcia support.

Which is banking toward Ross's favor.

---

Garcia > Innes seems very likely. Anyone care to agree / disagree?

Edited September 13, 2009 by Colonel M

[CATS]

Water terrain is like having a full avoid A A support as it grants 30 avoid.

Wait, wtf?

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe8/terrain.html

This is what, like, the 3rd, 4th false fact that you've posted? Seriously, quit making shit up.

Edited September 13, 2009 by CATS

[Colonel M]

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe8/terrain.html

You never mentioned terrain in your post. Not to mention that it isn't that much of a worry anyway:

http://fireemblemwod.net/fe8/guiafe8/capitulo17fe8.htm

And nevermind that Valkyries being on the terrain still isn't a good assumption.

EDIT: Oh wait, was that at Kuja? If so, sorry for jumping the gun.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

I don't believe I have made anything up. That ocean terrain deal though...;;>> Was a mistake on my part.

[CATS]

Wait... how does the Knight Crest situation dig into Garcia and Ross? You're losing me here.

A shortage of one promo item can be fixed by the Ch 15 Master Seal. If there's only one unit who's missing an item, then that's no problem, since they can just use the Seal.

If we have shortages on two fronts, though (in this case it would be Colm/Ross and the Cavaliers), then you can't fix both problems anymore, and "just use the master seal" is no longer a good excuse.

We also understand the player wants to use Gerik. The thing is I can still make Gerik good (look at those 20/1 stats). He's not desperate for an S Rank in Axes anyway since his AS is fairly high to begin with. Yes, I won't deny that he can use it, but simply stating that it isn't a negative to have Gerik wait for a Hero Crest either.

If he'd prefer to promote immediately, then yeah, having him wait is a negative.

Well, I don't have to point to Ross vs. Garcia. It kind of pinpoints both directions, but another thing to remember he DOES have the option of Dozla and Seth supporting him. Gilliam Bojangles is hard to think on and Neimi's situation is worse than everyone.

Seth has better things to do. Namely, Eirika and Franz, and he's already a tough support partner, so Garcia already being down a few spots on his list is pretty bad news.

Dozla? Perhaps. But if you use Dozla, that's just more competition for Garm, and the support is late anyways.

I'll toss out the Colm situation, but the promotion time of some characters should be pointed out slightly to Garcia's favor as well.

To Garcia's favor? What's in Garcia's favor here?

Then the next Gerik | Joshua discussion, or any discussion for that matter, should press onto this. Especially on the latter's case.

Thing is, when discussing Joshua, it's only a problem if you assume that Garcia's also in play. But if Garcia's not worth using in the first place, then that's not much of an issue. Ofcourse right now it works both ways since Joshua and Garcia are basically in the same place, but Joshua's position looks like it's in question currently (Mekkah says he moved Joshua down because of what smash said, but smash says he'd like Joshua around the bottom of High).

Two things. First off, we know they aren't scoring OHKOes. Second, the hit is pendant on if he gets supports or not.

If they're not scoring OHKOs, then how are they helping his case? I'm pretty sure he can 2HKO Paladins with the Killer Axe anyways, not sure about GKs.

What supports would he be getting?

I also doubt your assumption due to Garcia having about the same Skl as AS, so that gets canceled out. Then, Luck probably gets cancelled out. Halberd has 60 Acc in the first place.

Eh? No idea what you mean, but......

A random sample of the Valks has 46 Avo (17 Spd + 12 Lck). 23 Garcia has 16.2 Skl and 10.2 Lck. (16.2 * 2) + (10.2 / 2) + 60 - 46 = 51.5 displayed hit.

That's still over half the enemies. And saying that C18 is a scratch-out isn't 100% true because IIRC some of those eggs hatch anyway. Not all of them are defenseless pathetic eggs.

Still over half the enemies? It's 53%. Over half by 3%. Don't try to make it sound like more than what it is. Half the enemies is far less than adequate.

Some of those hatch? 1-2 of them, maybe, and the Gorgons have decent Spd (well, decent in the sense that Duessel's 12 Spd doesn't consistently double) anyways, so letting more of them hatch is probably going to actually decrease his overall doubling percentages.

Except some of these are rather ridiculous. If we get the Silver Card and we're able to buy these later at half the price, then we can at least afford to give everyone a Killer weapon or a Silver Blade. Speaking of that... where the hell did you get the assumption on the latter?

Silver Blade has 14 Mt. It's by far the most powerful buyable weapon, until the other Silvers become buyable after Ch 19, but ofcourse the game is basically over at that point anyways. Very nice for units who have too much Spd already but sorely want more Atk. Joshua w/ Silver Blade can 2HKO Ch 15's Cavaliers as early as L13-14 and still double them despite the 5 AS loss; he can't consistently 2HKO them with any other buyable weapon, including the Killing Edge, even at L21.

Buy Killers later at half price? Sure, you can buy them later. Buying them now is still better.

Garcia > Innes? Write something about it. You've got to post something before the change be justified.

EDIT: Oh wait, was that at Kuja? If so, sorry for jumping the gun.

Yeah, I accidentally posted before I was done typing, and I had to edit.

I don't believe I have made anything up.

Off the top of my head, you also stated that the majority of the Bonewalkers in Ch 4 use lances (false) and that Ross starts off getting 37 Exp for a hit/70 for a kill (also false). There's probably something else which I missed somewhere in all those tl;dr posts of yours.