FE9 Tier List

[Dat Nick]

um, what? Being 3-4HKOd is not that bad. It's not wonderful. But it's not that bad. It is most certainly better than the likes of Tormod [who he's owning in offense, btw] and most of what Tormod's been doing since his jointime is sucking. So he has like, 1, 2 chapters tops of being good by the time Largo shows. Sothe might be an issue, but seriously, if we're going to peg Geoff in upper mid for having five chapters of good, then Largo has no excuse not to be in lower.

Edited June 19, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[dondon151]

You can forge both hit and MT so it's not like arguments either way are significant.

Quicker and better = getting the support.

Brom's A support is an overwhelming 1 chapter faster than Titania's. Wow. Let's consider C and B supports, because keep in mind that for the majority of the game, unless you're IkexOscar, you will not have an A support.

C: Brom (15), Titania (10)

B: Brom (19), Titania (18)

A: Brom (22), Titania (23)

I might have gotten chapters off because I'm foggy on GM availability early on, and I'm not sure if 17 counts as 1 chapter or 4. The point is, Boyd gets C Titania before Brom joins and gets B a chapter earlier in exchange for A a chapter later, so Boyd would rather support Titania.

[-Cynthia-]

um, what? Being 3-4HKOd is not that bad. It's not wonderful. But it's not that bad. It is most certainly better than the likes of Tormod [who he's owning in offense, btw] and most of what Tormod's been doing since his jointime is sucking. So he has like, 1, 2 chapters tops of being good by the time Largo shows. Sothe might be an issue, but seriously, if we're going to peg Geoff in upper mid for having five chapters of good, then Largo has no excuse not to be in lower.

If you actually want to compare Largo and Geoffrey, the comparison does not go well for Largo.

--/16 Geoffrey (B Callil, Forged Silver Lance)

46 HP 43 Atk 23 AS 23 Def 11 Res 64 Avo

--/10 Largo (B Devdan Forged Silver Axe)

54 HP 46 Atk 21 AS 11 Def 4 Res 60 Avo

I would say Geoffrey wins offensively, 2 AS> 3 Atk? There should be some fast enemies Geoffrey doubles that Lergo can't, but unlikely that there are many enemies Largo ORKOS Geoffrey can't.

Geoffrey wins durability too, 12 Def/7 Res/4 Avo> 8 HP. Plus, he has more Mov and Canto.

Does it get better later?

--/20 Geoffrey ( A Callil, Forged Silver Lance)

49 HP 46 Atk 26 AS 25 Def 13 Res 71 Avo

--/14 (B Devdan Forged Silver Axe)

58 HP 49 Atk 23 AS 12 Def 4 Res 66 Avo

Same story, if you want to try and move Largo up, Geoffrey isn't the best comparison. Geoffrey is a lot higher, because quite simply he's a lot better.

Tormod has a lot of advantages over Largo, staves, 1-2 range, more Mov, a comparison might be in order.

Edited June 19, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Largo > Geoffrey is never happening.

[Dat Nick]

I think you took my whole analogy out of context. I never said Largo>Geoffrey or that they were even comparable. I'm arguing that if somebods is in upper mid tier for being great for five chapters is upper mid tier, somebody good for five chapters [i.e less than great] should be in lower mid tier.

If you actually want to compare Largo and Geoffrey, the comparison does not go well for Largo.

Funny how you skipped straight to the point where Geoff pulls out a level lead rather than look at them when they first join.

Largo's ATK and AS>Geoffrey's for probably the first two chapters or something. And yes, Geoffrey may have Paragon, but you're still giving him too much of a level lead, as his higher EXP gain is canceled out by his higher base level.

[-Cynthia-]

I think you took my whole analogy out of context. I never said Largo>Geoffrey or that they were even comparable. I'm arguing that if somebods is in upper mid tier for being great for five chapters is upper mid tier, somebody good for five chapters [i.e less than great] should be in lower mid tier.

If one character is much better than another during their availability they should be higher. I really wouldn't define Largo's performance as good, he's less durable than most of the team with roughly(worse than a few due to doubling issues sometimes) the same offense as your upper tier characters. He also moves slower than most units, lacks Canto, doesn't have staff utility etc. He's a subpar addition to the team when he joins.

Funny how you skipped straight to the point where Geoff pulls out a level lead rather than look at them when they first join.

Largo's ATK and AS>Geoffrey's for probably the first two chapters or something. And yes, Geoffrey may have Paragon, but you're still giving him too much of a level lead, as his higher EXP gain is canceled out by his higher base level.

Largo might win for the first chapter they're on, although with the rocks he has even more durability issues. After that Geoffrey is easily pulling a large level lead, Paragon> being 4 levels under by a lot. Also note that Geoffrey uses BEXP better simply because he only takes slighly more than half as much as Largo does to level up, so he can start pulling leads from the moment they join.

[Dat Nick]

If one character is much better than another during their availability they should be higher.

Here's the thing. Geoffrey may>Largo, but I doubt it's by an entire two tiers when Largo's even winning some of these chapters.

he's less durable than most of the team

not Tormod

and Tormod's above him

(worse than a few due to doubling issues sometimes)

Tormod's hardly doing much better.

He also moves slower than most units, lacks Canto, doesn't have staff utility etc.

This is a huge generalization as all foot soldiers have these exact issues and I'm going to need more to convince me that Largo's not contributing to the team.

although with the rocks he has even more durability issues.

Hm? The rocks are helping his durability as they're set-damage and ignore defense/res. Largo has high HP and low def/res. Rocks are exactly the kind of thing he wants to get hit by, so him eating a rock is better than, say, Soren, Neph, or somebody else with low HP getting hit by a rock.

After that Geoffrey is easily pulling a large level lead, Paragon> being 4 levels under by a lot.

I did some quick calculations and saw that Geoffrey's scraping together 40ish EXP when Largo gets 30ish on the same enemy. It seriously does not give Geoffrey three more levels that quickly.

Also note that Geoffrey uses BEXP better simply because he only takes slighly more than half as much as Largo does to level up

This still doesn't entitle him to any more than Largo's getting, it just means that he gets more BEXP from what he's dealt.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Comparing characters that are a tier or 2 apart when you're even not trying to move him or her above or below that unit are starting to look (or already are) repetitive and pointless. Enough of it.

Geoffrey could drop at any moment but that's not happening because of such comparisons.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

Rolf above Titania cuz of triangle attack, lol.

Anywho, in seriousness....

Calill above Geoffery anybody?

She wins supports, time, offense, and apparentl with a 40% def growth isn't too bad on the durability department, for a mage anyways. Also with her AS and magic, she has the effectiveness against the fliers, the furries, and OMG TEH DRAGONZ!

Geoff wins move and durability...That's it.

[Vykan12]

Geoffrey also has 1.5 times her movement, and wipes the floor with her in the durability department (hell he even beats Haar in that respect). Paragon + KW erase any speed lead she might have started with too. I don't see much of a case there for Calill aside from having some extra chapters.

[grandjackal]

Perhaps not my battle then, but I feel there might be a case. I've been sucking at debates lately x.x All I can say is has he really so epically hax in his chapter as to out-do the hax she's been her time?

Anywhooooo...

...Largo over Mia? Anyone think that a tad much?

[Zkirsche]

What did I just say about swordmasters? Did you even read it?

+1 atk won't help Boyd ORKO generals if he couldn't already. +5 hit that helps on all instances is so much better. You may have a point on bosses, but you have plenty others who want boss kills, and generic enemies take up a far larger amount of enemies than bosses.

Sorry, It was actually +3 Hit, not +5 Hit.

Still, Brom still prefers Boyd over nephenee.

[Tino]

Since when is 15 - 10 the equivalent of 3?

Also, I didn't see you counter my points at all. You can't just shove all of my points off with "ur wrong im right", which is practically what you're doing right now.

[-Cynthia-]

You also have to consider Nephenee prefers Brom over nobody until Devdan/Callil (both of which are far from guaranteed in play).

Anywho Largo vs. Tormod

--/7 Largo(forged hand axe)

52 HP 32 Atk 20 AS 10 Def 3 Res 52 Avo

20/5 Tormod (forged Thunder B Devdan/B Callil)

33 HP 32 Atk 19 AS 10 Def 18 Res 59 Avo

Tormod wins Atk against most enemies, since the Res gap is anywhere between 4-12 on non-magic enemies. The speed gap is nearly non-existent due to Tormod being slightly lower leveled here and them having the same growth rate. Largo does win Atk(against some enemies) if we're going to have him go 1 range, but then Tormod has all the nice advantages of 1-2 range that Largo doesn't.

Largo wins durability (19 HP> 7 Avo and 15 Res), but Tormod has other factors going in his favor, like higher Mov, staves, long range tomes, and consistent 1-2 range(that hand axe only has 25 uses, he's losing to Tormod even more offensively then). Tough to call, since Tormod going to 20/5 costs some resources as well.

Edited June 19, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dat Nick]

Geoffrey could drop at any moment but that's not happening because of such comparisons.

I'm looking to get Largo up, not Geoffrey down.

Tormod wins Atk against most enemies, since the Res gap is anywhere between 4-12 on non-magic enemies. The speed gap is nearly non-existent due to Tormod being slightly lower leveled here and them having the same growth rate. Largo does win Atk(against some enemies) if we're going to have him go 1 range, but then Tormod has all the nice advantages of 1-2 range that Largo doesn't.

Is the ATK bit really all that relevant when they're both going to one round everything? Tormod winning 1-2 range? Fine. But Killer Axe playing in favor of Largo's durability from time to time should also be factored in.

like higher Mov

Without canto, a one move lead only equates to so much.

staves

Didn't you just say that Largo's durability was bad compared to the rest of the team? Well, if that's the case, when getting 3-4RKOd is "bad". then staves are of very limited use.

long range tomes

Another resource of rather limited use.

[Zkirsche]

For Largo's durability, after a level-up he has 53/10/52 HP/Def/Avo. Let's take some enemies from Chapter 25:

Level 7 Halberdier with a steel lance: 23-25 Atk, 102-104 Hit

Level 7 Warrior with a steel axe: 28 Atk, 91-94 Hit

Level 7 Swordmaster with a steel sword: 22 Atk, 116 Hit

Level 7 Sniper with a steel bow:c 22-23 Atk, 108-113 Hit

Against the Halberdiers, Largo has a 1.624% chance of dying in 4 rounds, at worst. At best, he has 0.357% chance of dying in 5 rounds. Pretty good. He faces similar Hit rates against the Warrior, but he gets 3RKO'ed. This means he has a ~3% chance of dying in those 3 hits.

The snipers 5RKO him and have, at worst, 16.78% chance of killing him in those 5 rounds. At best, they have 8.956% of killing him in 5 rounds.

The SM's 5RKO him with a ~22% chance of killing him in those 5 rounds.

He isn't that bad durably.

Since when is 15 - 10 the equivalent of 3?

Also, I didn't see you counter my points at all. You can't just shove all of my points off with "ur wrong im right", which is practically what you're doing right now.

An A with Titania and B with Brom gives Boyd +20 Hit (15 from Titania, 5 from brom)

An A with Brom and B with Titania gives Boyd +17 Hit (10 from Titania 7.5 from Brom)

I conceded that Boyd prefers the attack. But I went on to say that the bonuses given by Boyd's Fire affinity > Bonuses given from Neph's wind affinity. Besides, it also hurts the team by not giving Brom Boyd. See, giving Brom Neph over Boyd has a bunch of negatives; the first is that now Boyd lost a support partner, meaning he has to get Mist or Ulki as a support. Ulki is fail, so that leaves Mist, who then has to blow off either Mordy or Jill. It's fairly obvious that it'll be the latter as water x Water is smexy. This forces Jill to wait until Haar comes along just to get another support, but by that point, Jill's stats have caught up, for the most part.

But, just to humour you, I'll redo the comparison with an 'A' with Neph:

Level 20/5 Brom with a forged steel lance/javelin, 'A' Neph, 'B' Zihark: 43 HP, 37/33 Atk, 18 AS, 60 Avo, 25 Def, 11 Res

Level xx/6 Calill with Forged thunder: 32 HP, 28 Atk, 18 AS, 52 Avo, 8 Def, 17 Res

Lol@ Brom being worse durably.

AND brom is still better offensively due to an awesome Atk lead. not to mentioned his movement isn't limited due to durability.

So Brom > Calill. This debate has accomplished a lot.

Level xx/13 Calill, Forged thunder, 'B' Neph 'C' Geoffrey: 35.5 HP, 33 Atk, 21 AS, 72 Avo, 11 Def, 19 Res

Level 20/13 Brom, Forged silver lance/Javelin, 'A' Neph 'B' Zihark: 49 HP, 46/37 Atk, 22 AS, 70 Avo, 29 Def, 13 Res

I still laugh at the idea that Brom is worse durably. 13.5 HP + 18 Def >>> 2 Avo + 6 Res.

Offensively, Brom still has a great Atk lead. He also doubles more and still isn'tlimited by poor durability.

Brom > Calill.

Since Cynthia requested it, time for a full support list, 2 chapters later. Brom gets 1 use of knight ward:

Level xx/15 Calill, same weapons, 'A' Geoffrey, 'B' Nephenee: 36.5 HP, 36 Atk, 22 AS, 80 Avo, 12 Def, 20 Res

Level 20/15 Brom, same weapons, 'A' Nephenee, 'B' Zihark: 50.5 HP, 47/38 Atk, 22 AS, 70 Avo, 30 Def, 13.5 Res

Defensively, I'd still say that 18 Def + 14 HP > 10 Avo + 6.5 Res.

Offensively, whilst Calill will be better with 1-2 range, Brom is superier at close range. Brom also isn't restricted by his durability.

Then, you have to factor in that Brom has more availabiltiy than Calill and is never a detriment in that time.

Brom > Calill.

Edited June 19, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

^ Of course, this is with giving Brom full KW access, which I think we both agree is a pretty big drain on resources. You haven't given Callil anything to compensate for this, so it's not the fairest comparison. If we start not giving Brom the KW all the time (considering all the units that want it, this is highly plausible), his AS and therefore his offense is going to drop to a level significantly below Callil's. I also don't think anyone ever claimed Callil was more durable, so bringing that up isn't terribly helpful. I do agree with Brom> Callil though, just pointing this out.

Staves are still at least somewhat useful, though by the time Tormod promotes there should be multiple staff users on the team, so it's not that great.

Long range tomes help counteract Tormod's durability issues. He's one of the best users, since Illyana and Soren lose major AS from them and Bastian's slow as dirt anyway.

How does using a Killer Axe improve Largo's durability? More Enemy Phase action = more enemies= higher chance of dying. Unless we're giving Largo Vantage, but you probably should have said something about that. The numbers don't look that bad, though laguz are a bigger problem for Largo.

In all honesty though, I could see Largo>Tormod. I could see him as high as Tauroneo, though then he has a durability disadvantage.

[Dat Nick]

How does using a Killer Axe improve Largo's durability?

Killing something before they can hit him on the player phase. It has roughly a 50%ish chance of happening.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Killing something before they can hit him on the player phase. It has roughly a 50%ish chance of happening.

Ah, so you did mean to use Vantage on him. Vantage scroll comes in C14 though so good luck giving reason why we should save it for Largo when others can put it to better and more use.

[Zkirsche]

You could combine it with a skill like vantage. Yes that stops it being used, but it's not impossible and arguably worth the wait.

Whilst it is true I did give brom a lot of KW, the pallys don't want it and nephenee has been proven quite durable with wrath + Vantage combo. Unless you're talking about Devdan, but brom uses it better anyway. I coudl give Calill a fighter band for all of her 9 levels ups, that equates to a +0.45 gain in both HP and def which pretty much ensures 37HP and 12 Def.

Edited June 19, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

You could combine it with a skill like vantage. Yes that stops it being used, but it's not impossible and arguably worth the wait.

Whilst it is true I did give brom a lot of KW, the pallys don't want it and nephenee has been proven quite durable with wrath + Vantage combo. Unless you're talking about Devdan, but brom uses it better anyway. I coudl give Calill a fighter band for all of her 9 levels ups, that equates to a +0.45 gain in both HP and def which pretty much ensures 37HP and 12 Def.

Makalov and Astrid want it for durability and early AS issues. Devdan and Gatrie want it obviously. Nephenee doesn't get Vantage for a while, and that's a limited resource anyway, so she could use the durability boost as well. If Oscar/Kieran get slightly speed screwed, KW can fix their issues as well.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

You could combine it with a skill like vantage. Yes that stops it being used, but it's not impossible and arguably worth the wait.

This, I doubt. From what I've gathered, there are only 2 Killer Axes in the game and they only have 20 uses and are found in Chapters 14 and 19. Holding the Vantage scroll just to let some Berserker make limited use of it for 5 chapters does not sound efficient.

[Zkirsche]

Makalov and Astrid want it for durability and early AS issues. Devdan and Gatrie want it obviously. Nephenee doesn't get Vantage for a while, and that's a limited resource anyway, so she could use the durability boost as well. If Oscar/Kieran get slightly speed screwed, KW can fix their issues as well.

But, Brom arguably uses it better than all of them due to having the best atk, thus doubling makes a bigger impact.

Gatrie is meh, Neph gets vantage 2 chapters after the KW shows up. Mak and Astrid are fine durably, as Tino showed, and thier AS is qucikly solved through great growths and being underlevelled and thus gaining levels quicker.

This, I doubt. From what I've gathered, there are only 2 Killer Axes in the game and they only have 20 uses and are found in Chapters 14 and 19. Holding the Vantage scroll just to let some Berserker make limited use of it for 5 chapters does not sound efficient.

True enougth I suppose.

Any thoughts on Brom > Calill and Largo into Mid?

Edited June 19, 2009 by kirsche

[Dat Nick]

Ah, so you did mean to use Vantage on him. Vantage scroll comes in C14 though so good luck giving reason why we should save it for Largo when others can put it to better and more use.

Um, no I didn't. You can crit on the player phase before your target can counterattack. That's how Killer Axes help Largo's durability. If I was giving him vantage I would have said the enemy phase.

Edited June 19, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Dr. Tarrasque]

True enougth I suppose.

Any thoughts on Brom > Calill and Largo into Mid?

It's not gonna happen with that last argument you presented as I agree with Cynthia, too many KW level ups for him in that comparison.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Sirius