FE9 Tier List

[Swordsalmon]

Ilyana also has existing supports. Rhys could get A Titania or Mia, but the former has severe Movement differences and the latter is terrible. Ilyana can get by with Mordecai A/B, Zihark A/B (Mordecai A allows Mist to A support Jill, and Zihark always appreciates 1 more Defense). ^_^

[Colonel M]

Ohhhh, it works like GBA FE assassitnation...Thought it was just it's own thing like in RD.

Yeah, pardon me then.

Actually, it was 1/3 of a Crit in the GBA FE... which is arguably better than in this situation when it's, perhaps, about 15% chance to activate. I'm not going to throw numbers around though.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Actually, it was 1/3 of a Crit in the GBA FE... which is arguably better than in this situation when it's, perhaps, about 15% chance to activate. I'm not going to throw numbers around though.

http://serenesforest.net/fe8/skill.htm

Silencer

http://serenesforest.net/fe7/calc.html

Assassination.

Volke is not moving up cause of Lethality.

[Shadow Mir]

Actually, it was 1/3 of a Crit in the GBA FE... which is arguably better than in this situation when it's, perhaps, about 15% chance to activate. I'm not going to throw numbers around though.

The best that Lethality has to activate is only 12%. And that's ignoring the fact that enemies have luck and Volke isn't maxing skill until late, if ever. So no. Volke isn't moving up because of Lethality.

[Colonel M]

Yeesh, I meant GBA >> PoR's anyway. <_<

EDIT: Ah, so I guess it is the same.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Colonel M

[Zkirsche]

Just for the record, noone contested my idea taht she doesn't get the master seal.

Ilyana also has existing supports. Rhys could get A Titania or Mia, but the former has severe Movement differences and the latter is terrible. Ilyana can get by with Mordecai A/B, Zihark A/B (Mordecai A allows Mist to A support Jill, and Zihark always appreciates 1 more Defense). ^_^

Canto helps mov differance, and she has noone else to support.

Why would Mist choose Jill over Mordy? +1 Atk and + 1 Def > +1 Def + 2 Avo.

Zihark has Muarim and Brom, Mordy has Stefan and Mist. Every unit loves a good earth/water support. Why would they go for a light support? Besides, Ilyana - Muarim has worse mobility troubles.

Zihark gets the same bonuses from Brom and Muarim, except Muarim nets him avo and Brom nets him attack. Why woudl we give this up for Hit? Sure, Mordy may not want Stefan, but Stefan sure as hell wants Mordy.

Never mind the fact that a forged light costs OVER 9000 gold. (To be specific, I've seen it go in the 22,000 range. And you're saying that we can throw THAT mich money around at a point in time where we don't have that much?) And Boyd might want Titania, since his attack is overkill as it is. He needs hit.

Just lower the weight..... but damn, 30500 gold for a max mt light forge? Ridiculous.

Brom likes Boyd, too. But a B with Titania is still likely.

Interesting... and we care more about +1 ATK and +1 DEF on Stefan over better and earlier bonuses on 2 characters... why?

Woah, +6 ATK and DEF for Mordy? How? (well I'm guessing you're putting the Mist support there which would actually be +5 ATK and DEF >_>) The difference between Mordy x Ilyana and Ulki x Mordy support at A is just 1 ATK 3 DEF vs 3 ATK and DEF. Why the fuck do you wanna just field Ulki for +2 ATK when Ilyana gives him the same DEF bonuses earlier and can act as a healer O_o?

Cause Stefan can't get said bonuses elswhere, unless you think that he doesn't need the def?

Movement issues, durability differances etcetera.

And why exactly isn't she using healing? Who the hell said she always has to attack? O_o

This was my point, her combat advantages are shrunk unless she enters combat frequently, which isn't likely.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Just for the record, noone contested my idea taht she doesn't get the master seal.

It's already established that she's getting the early Master Seal if Soren or Mist are not getting them/not in play. Soren rose because of this early promotion thing and to not consider it on Ilyana and have her drop too far below Soren would be entitling items. I'm not doing that.

Also, Tino already pointed out why this "Eitehr she's a combat unit or healer, but she cannot be both. I was undermining her combat utility." logic of yours is flawed.

Cause Stefan can't get said bonuses elswhere, unless you think that he doesn't need the def?

Movement issues, durability differences etcetera.

... So because he's not getting them elsewhere we're supposed to entitle him to those bonuses? The fact that Mordy would get more with the other person means jack shit?

Availability issues, they're low tier and less likely to be played, etc. If Mordy gets A Mist, then he'll have to go B with either Ilyana or Ulki as you suggest.

B Light

1 ATK, 2 DEF and 5 accuracy no1 gives a damn about.

B Water

2 ATK, 2 DEF

Oh look, same DEF bonuses and only 1 ATK away. You want Mordy to get supports later just for 1 freaking ATK that requires fielding a low tier unit?

Edited June 25, 2009 by Sirius

[-Cynthia-]

Just a note on supports:

Mist gains more than 2 avo from a Jill support. The reason Mist/Jill is so viable is because Jill is lacking in other partners, so Jill likes the boost. This means Mordy is probably only supporting Stefan, so getting Illyana is easy

For Zihark to be full, both Muarim and Brom must be in play and not full. Muarim I'll concede, but Brom in play in questionable and Nephenee/Boyd is very likely for him anyway.

Assuming the Master Seal on any character is silly. Even though Soren/Illyana/Mist/Rhys gain more from the Seal than most other characters, there are only 2 before Ch21, and as such they're highly competetive. A unit may be the best with a particular resource, but that doesn't mean it's assumed, otherwise we we do things like assume Mia with Adept in RD. Mia being able to use Adept should be considered, since she's the best candidate, but it cannot be assumed.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Assuming the Master Seal on any character is silly. Even though Soren/Illyana/Mist/Rhys gain more from the Seal than most other characters, there are only 2 before Ch21, and as such they're highly competetive. A unit may be the best with a particular resource, but that doesn't mean it's assumed, otherwise we we do things like assume Mia with Adept in RD. Mia being able to use Adept should be considered, since she's the best candidate, but it cannot be assumed.

I understand your point but this is a bad example. Mia is a "better candidate" for Adept to a lesser extent compared with how the Master Seal works.

With Adept she's only better than others based on her SPD and all this does is possibly make her 1 round based on the % activation of Adept, which isn't too much greater than that of other characters.

With Master Seal, the only thing other people are doing using those Master Seals early is a gaining a small combat boost while the mages get the same + healing.

[-Cynthia-]

I understand your point but this is a bad example. Mia is a "better candidate" for Adept to a lesser extent compared with how the Master Seal works.

With Adept she's only better than others based on her SPD and all this does is possibly make her 1 round based on the % activation of Adept, which isn't too much greater than that of other characters.

With Master Seal, the only thing other people are doing using those Master Seals early is a gaining a small combat boost while the mages get the same + healing.

The point is everyone can get a boost from Adept/Master Seal. Some people use Adept/Master Seal better, but that doesn't mean they always get it.

Mia gets tons more mileage out of Adept than the GMs that don't reliably double (everyone but Ike/Shinon), since she has two chances at activating it instead of one, it's actually quite similar.

Again, let's not overrate the heal upon promotion. We already have 2 healers and we don't actually need more than that. It's a positive of course, but not a huge one. Healing utility is only super valuable when we're extremely limited in staff users (Rhys's early chapters).

[Tino]

This was my point, her combat advantages are shrunk unless she enters combat frequently, which isn't likely.

um, wat?

I guess you haven't read my post.

What? You're shoving off healing + combat as a worse combination than just combat or healing alone. That's just madness. Since when does 1 > 2 again?

Seriously, combat + healing allows a unit to fight something when necessary, and otherwise heal someone when necessary. It allows for much more flexibility and gives her more utility than she had when she just had combat.

[Zkirsche]

If she isn't going into combat much, then better combat utility matters less. That's my whole point. I'm not arguing that having 2 things > 1 (Although Rhys can also fight).

[Tino]

That's... ridiculous, to say the least. It's Rhys vs. Ilyana. When you're comparing their combat abbilities, you assume both are fighting. When you're comparing their healing capabilities, you assume both are healing. Not that one is fighting and one is healing.

[Zkirsche]

I concede Ilyana > Rhys.

However, why is there such a gap between Stefan and Mordy? The latter has actual durability, more availability and a better affinity. The former only lacks a transformation gauge and has better offence. 3 > 2. Mordy > Stefan.

[Vykan12]

3 > 2

You have to gauge those leads against each other, not assume they have equal weight. Stefan's offensive lead is pretty significant, particularly lategame.

[Zkirsche]

You have to gauge those leads against each other, not assume they have equal weight. Stefan's offensive lead is pretty significant, particularly lategame.

So's Mordy durability lead. Heck, movement is pretty important in a team full of pallys and fliers. See, I was being generous by giving them all equal weight.

[-Cynthia-]

^ Oh kirsche, your weird math strikes again.

Mordy wins the chapters that Stefan's not around (and Ch15), that's 6 chapters. Comparison time.

--/8 Stefan (forged Steel Sword)

38 HP 32 Atk 25 AS 12 Def 9 Res 55 Avo

--/5 Mordy (B Illyana) (if you're wondering why he isn't going for Mist, it's because we're using Stefan and Mist can easily go Jill/Titania/Boyd anyway)

44 HP 36 Atk 12.5 AS 19 Def 7 Res 35 Avo

Durability wise, it's 6 HP and 7 Def vs. 2 Res and 20 Avo. Mordecai is better, but Stefan's pretty durable.

Offensively, Stefan hits slightly softer, but doubles everything, while Mordecai suffers from doubling problems(oh and crit). This just gets worse over time for Mordecai, since while Stefan gets Silvers and killers and such, Mordecai is stuck with claw.

I would say Stefan having double the offense in most situations and not being inactive for the first 3-4 turns or so is more important than Mordecai's durability lead. If Stefan is beating Mordecai upon jointime and for the rest of the game, he wins 14 chapters to Mordecai's 6.

[Zkirsche]

--/5 Mordy (B Illyana) (if you're wondering why he isn't going for Mist, it's because we're using Stefan and Mist can easily go Jill/Titania/Boyd anyway)

Boyd wants Titania and Brom (Titania for the hit, Brom cuz it's faster). And Titania is Hit + Def. Mordy is Atk + Def. Mist has no problems hitting, but she does have offensive issues. Besides, they can only form and 'A' together at the same time as Mordy does - chapter 18. How is worse bonuses > Better bonuses?

With 'B' Mist added in, they have equal res.

If Stefan is beating Mordecai upon jointime and for the rest of the game, he wins 14 chapters to Mordecai's 6.

You can't assume that's the case for the rest of the game. Chapter 21 comparison:

--/11 Stefan with a forged steel sword, 'B' Soren: 40 HP, 34.5 Atk, 27 AS, 65 Avo, 13 Def, 10 Res

--/9 Mordy with claw, 'A' Ilyana, 'B' Mist: 48 HP, 39 Atk, 14.5 AS, 41-43 Avo, 25 Def, 10 Res

Offensively, Stefan wins. But Mordy isn't too shabby either, he 2RKO's. Plus, Mordy has more mov, whcih matters in a team of pallys but you forgot to mention in your comparison of the two.

Defensively, 12 Def + 8 HP > 22-24 Avo.

Mordy's Durability lead + better outgoing bonuses > Stefan's offensive lead. As Stefan can't afford to be attacked multiple times on the enemy phrase.

Chapter 24 comparison:

--/14 Stefan with a forged silver, 'A' Soren: 42 HP, 40 Atk, 28 AS, 69.5 Avo, 14 Def, 11 Res

--/13 Mordecai with claw, 'A' Ilyana, 'B' Mist: 52 HP, 40 Atk, 16.5 AS, 46 - 48 Avo, 26 Def, 11 Res

Durably, it's gotten worse for Stefan, who only has 21-23 Avo against Mordy's 10 HP and 12 Def.

Offensively, Mordy only takes 1 more round to kill enemies than Stefan. And when you factor in his better mov and non-existant durabiltiy problems you realise that they are actually quite close offensively. Let's say Stefan wins it, just for the crit.

Mordy still gives out better outgoing bonuses.

Chapter 27 comparison:

--/17 Stefan with forged silver, 'A' Soren: 44 HP, 41.5 Atk, 30 AS, 74 Avo, 15 Def, 12 Res

--/17 Mordy with claw, 'A' Ilyana, 'B' Mist: 56 HP, 44 Atk, 18.5 AS, 52-54 Avo, 28 Def, 12 Res

Durably, it's the same story, Mordy wins HP and Def by large amounts, they tie res, and Stefan wins avoid less than before.

Offensively, Mordy doubles lvl 9 Halbs or weaker, Level 10 or 11 halbs if they weild heavy weapons (heavy spears, laguz lances etcetera). Mordy can double lvl 9 or weaker warriors 75% of the time. He also has a chance of doubling lvl 7 snipers and will double weaker snipers. Then, Mordy doubles wyvern's and generals. Stefan's Offensive lead is now all but non-existant.

Endgame comparison:

--/20 Stefan with forged silver, 'A' Soren: 46 HP, 42 Atk, 30 AS, 75 Avo, 16 Def, 13 Res

--/20 Mordy with claw, 'A' Ilyana, 'B' Mist: 59 Atk, 46 Atk, 20 AS, 57 Avo, 29 Def, 13 Res

I'm getting tired of saying this, but this is exactly the same as before, except Mordy doubles less.

---------

You know what these comparisons lack? Resources. A single speedwing gets Mordy doubling. Speed band usage can help him double, too. A dracoshield doesn't get Stefan's durability equal to Mordy's. In fact, Stefan can't reach 24 Def, meaning he can't exceed Mordy's def in my first comparison. Stefan will also need 2 seraph robes to exceed Mordy's HP. Mordy can fix his problems, Stefan can't.

You made it soung like transformation is a big deal, but this is not RD, Mordy is not doubled after untransforming (Especially with speed band/wing usage). And his defence still exceeds Stefan's untransformed. So it's easy to send him into a clump of enemies and get attacked and transform. Transformation is a very minor advantage for Stefan.

Then, Mordy has Smite. Stefan has LolAstra. Mordy also doesn't cost the team anything - he's completely free.

All in all, Stefan is not ~5 squares above Mordy, and is arguably worse than Mordy too.

[A2ZOMG]

What? I honestly don't see why Ilyana deserves upper mid.

She's one of the slowest units in the game...and it doesn't really help her that she's a magic user since those are a rather poor class in this game due to low movement.

So yess...she has good supports...and that's pretty much all that is going for her. Nothing else about her really stands out.

Rhys is useful since he's the only healer for some time which is autowin (and having two healers earlygame > having one). Also imo Mordecai and Lethe > Ilyana. Way better move, durability, and combat skills.

[Zkirsche]

What? I honestly don't see why Ilyana deserves upper mid.

She's one of the slowest units in the game...and it doesn't really help her that she's a magic user since those are a rather poor class in this game due to low movement.

So yess...she has good supports...and that's pretty much all that is going for her. Nothing else about her really stands out.

Rhys is useful since he's the only healer for some time which is autowin (and having two healers earlygame > having one). Also imo Mordecai and Lethe > Ilyana. Way better move, durability, and combat skills.

Her potential after being sealed is what deemed her superier to those three (Mordy, Lethe and Rhys).

[-Cynthia-]

Boyd wants Titania and Brom (Titania for the hit, Brom cuz it's faster). And Titania is Hit + Def. Mordy is Atk + Def. Mist has no problems hitting, but she does have offensive issues. Besides, they can only form and 'A' together at the same time as Mordy does - chapter 18. How is worse bonuses > Better bonuses?

Boyd would prefer + Def over + Hit, and Brom's chances in being in play are iffy. Plus since we're using Stefan, it's pretty stupid to sandbag him by filling up Mordy when Mist can easily just go somewhere else, not to mention Illyana has a good chance to be out of play herself.

You can't assume that's the case for the rest of the game. Chapter 21 comparison:

--/11 Stefan with a forged steel sword, 'B' Soren: 40 HP, 34.5 Atk, 27 AS, 65 Avo, 13 Def, 10 Res

--/9 Mordy with claw, 'A' Ilyana, 'B' Mist: 48 HP, 39 Atk, 14.5 AS, 41-43 Avo, 25 Def, 10 Res

Offensively, Stefan wins. But Mordy isn't too shabby either, he 2RKO's. Plus, Mordy has more mov, whcih matters in a team of pallys but you forgot to mention in your comparison of the two.

I didn't forget it, but not being a first turn transform laguz makes it harder for him to leverage it. If he rushes ahead witht he pallys, all he's going to do is draw enemy fire with no chance to counter and decreased durability, which is unwanted. Also ORKOing is much, much better than 2RKOing, it's really an enormous advantage.

Defensively, 12 Def + 8 HP > 22-24 Avo.

Mordy's Durability lead + better outgoing bonuses > Stefan's offensive lead. As Stefan can't afford to be attacked multiple times on the enemy phrase.

Rather underrating Stefan's durability. The Lvl 15 Stl Axe Fighters (the enemies with the most Atk in Ch16) have only ~23 Atk,. This means Stefan is only getting 4HKOd at absurdly low hit rates(like 10% lol). Things like Lvl18 Iron Lance Knights have more Hit(about 50% display), but are like 6RKOing Stefan at best. So "can't afford to be attacked multiple times" is a little harsh.

Chapter 24 comparison:

--/14 Stefan with a forged silver, 'A' Soren: 42 HP, 40 Atk, 28 AS, 69.5 Avo, 14 Def, 11 Res

--/13 Mordecai with claw, 'A' Ilyana, 'B' Mist: 52 HP, 40 Atk, 16.5 AS, 46 - 48 Avo, 26 Def, 11 Res

Durably, it's gotten worse for Stefan, who only has 21-23 Avo against Mordy's 10 HP and 12 Def.

Offensively, Mordy only takes 1 more round to kill enemies than Stefan. And when you factor in his better mov and non-existant durabiltiy problems you realise that they are actually quite close offensively. Let's say Stefan wins it, just for the crit.

Mordy still gives out better outgoing bonuses.

I would argue Mordy's somewhat overleveled for 2RKOing things and basically not showing up until Turn 4-5 on every map, considering Stefan shows up for every turn and ORKOS things.

Chapter 27 comparison:

--/17 Stefan with forged silver, 'A' Soren: 44 HP, 41.5 Atk, 30 AS, 74 Avo, 15 Def, 12 Res

--/17 Mordy with claw, 'A' Ilyana, 'B' Mist: 56 HP, 44 Atk, 18.5 AS, 52-54 Avo, 28 Def, 12 Res

Durably, it's the same story, Mordy wins HP and Def by large amounts, they tie res, and Stefan wins avoid less than before.

Offensively, Mordy doubles lvl 9 Halbs or weaker, Level 10 or 11 halbs if they weild heavy weapons (heavy spears, laguz lances etcetera). Mordy can double lvl 9 or weaker warriors 75% of the time. He also has a chance of doubling lvl 7 snipers and will double weaker snipers. Then, Mordy doubles wyvern's and generals. Stefan's Offensive lead is now all but non-existant.

Stefan doubles everything. Mordy doubles Wyverns/Generals/some lower leveled or weighed down enemies, and arguably only when overleveled. It basically works out to Stefan doubles 99%, Mordy doubles like 25% maybe, which is pretty far from "non-existent".

You know what these comparisons lack? Resources. A single speedwing gets Mordy doubling. Speed band usage can help him double, too. A dracoshield doesn't get Stefan's durability equal to Mordy's. In fact, Stefan can't reach 24 Def, meaning he can't exceed Mordy's def in my first comparison. Stefan will also need 2 seraph robes to exceed Mordy's HP. Mordy can fix his problems, Stefan can't.

Stefan also has a pretty monstrous Avo lead over Mordy, it's more than an A Earth worth of difference. Plus, I don't think Mordy really cataches up to Stefan in levels as easily as you claimed, since he's offensively inferior.

You made it soung like transformation is a big deal, but this is not RD, Mordy is not doubled after untransforming (Especially with speed band/wing usage). And his defence still exceeds Stefan's untransformed. So it's easy to send him into a clump of enemies and get attacked and transform. Transformation is a very minor advantage for Stefan.

The gauge gains for being in combat in PoR are much less than those in RD, and if Mordy is being attacked on the Enemy Phase untransformed, it's just more efficiency decrease for him, since he can't counter.

Then, Mordy has Smite. Stefan has LolAstra. Mordy also doesn't cost the team anything - he's completely free.

Stefan doesn't have a recruitment cost, unless you count running Lethe/Mordy up in Ch16 which isn't terribly difficult.

All in all, Stefan is not ~5 squares above Mordy, and is arguably worse than Mordy too.

If you want to argue Mordy above Stefan, than say Mordy's better than Stefan not move them closer. If you want to move Mordy above Soren/Illyana, then compare him to them.

[Vykan12]

What? I honestly don't see why Ilyana deserves upper mid.

I concur.

Base lvl Ilyana: 20 hp, 9 spd, 3 def, 10 res, 24 avo

wind: 10 atk

thunder: 12 atk, 7 AS

Base lvl Mia: 21 hp, 13 spd, 7 def, 2 res, 32 avo

iron sword: 12 atk

steel sword: 15 atk, 8 AS

Being roughly tied with one of the worst earlygame units is already a sign of trouble. What's funnier:

Mia leads in all durability growths (5 hp/5 def/60 avo) and also has a 30% spd growth lead to her 5% mag lead. Sure, there's 1-2 range and the def-res gap to consider, but aside from that, you could easily claim Mia is actually better in combat in the long run.

So apparently we're supposed to seal Ilyana. That might give her staves but it murders her AS and durability worse than before. Are staves alone getting her in upper-mid, especially when she gains them at a point where staff utility is far more redundant?

[Yojinbo]

I asked that already on Gfaqs but who is supposed to support Titania?

[Vykan12]

Presumably anyone she can get her hands on. Ike, Boyd and Mist are all options, even though light is not necessarily their optimal choices.

[Yojinbo]

Well Mist, Boyd and Titania is probably a good support triangle ... but Ike? He has many better supports...I thought it's Oscar, Soren or something like that. But Boyd and Mist sounds actually quite good anyways.