FE9 Tier List

[Dat Nick]

Yeah, not that I disagree with Vykan's example, but I was thinking "Rolf can't POSSIBLY suck that bad."

[Vykan12]

If that detail bothers you, just look at lv 7-10 Rolf instead. He's still requiring more BEXP than Shinon is, and at a time where it is less plentiful (though that depends how you manage your BEXP). IMO, you want to throw the BEXP you get in chapter 8 (ie when the base is first available) onto Boyd/Oscar/maybe others to push them towards godmode. When Shinon joins, most of your units have already promoted, so the demand is much lesser at that point.

[-Cynthia-]

If that detail bothers you, just look at lv 7-10 Rolf instead. He's still requiring more BEXP than Shinon is, and at a time where it is less plentiful (though that depends how you manage your BEXP). IMO, you want to throw the BEXP you get in chapter 8 (ie when the base is first available) onto Boyd/Oscar/maybe others to push them towards godmode. When Shinon joins, most of your units have already promoted, so the demand is much lesser at that point.

Rolf actually requires much less BEXP than Shinon, since it's level 1 unpromoted as compared to level 1 promoted. If you're going to go with Rolf not getting BEXP because Oscar and Boyd are better, there's a long list of units Shinon is worse than and doesn't ever become better even with substantial BEXP use. Shinon/Rolf's main problem of having no Enemy Phase can never be solved, the best they can hope for is a mediocre Player Phase. I find it difficult to imagine that they even would hbe considered to be above average after substantial BEXP use.

Edited June 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

Rolf actually requires much less BEXP than Shinon, since it's level 1 unpromoted as compared to level 1 promoted.

Like I said, compare the amount of BEXP available to the amount the character is using up. I'm pretty sure Rolf is using up a significantly larger proportion.

At any rate, Rolf being plowed with BEXP is a legitimate way of compensating for his earlygame suck. Losing resources is >>>>>> losing turns.

If you're going to go with Rolf not getting BEXP because Oscar and Boyd are better, there's a long list of units Shinon is worse than and doesn't ever become better even with substantial BEXP use.

That wasn't my argument at all. The BEXP you get in 8 can drastically change Boyd + Oscar's performance (the difference between 2RKO and 1RKO is pretty big after all), whereas you'll probably never get such a benefit from eg/ putting BEXP into a 20/1 Jill (or wtv level she is when Shinon shows up).

[-Cynthia-]

At any rate, Rolf being plowed with BEXP is a legitimate way of compensating for his earlygame suck. Losing resources is >>>>>> losing turns.

We're going to have to make a lot of changes to the tier list then, mainly moving up Rolf, Mia, or any other unit that isn't very good for a long period of time without lots of BEXP. I think you might be overrating availability a bit here, if a character can't reach a decent level of performance without BEXP plowing, their availability still isn't a positive, since we could just use the BEXP on someone else and get better results.

Edited June 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[uzy5o]

I agree with Cynthia. Having to use tons of BEXP just to suck less isn't a good sign. Rolf and Shinon both have to use disproportionate amounts BEXP, and since they rarely have enemy phases, they use the BEXP only about half as efficiently as most other characters. Somebody like Lucia may be garbage in combat as well, but at least they don't have the additional negative of using up a valuable resource that the rest of the team can use.

[Florete]

Um, was there something about BEXPing Rolf in his joining chapter? Because that's impossible. He joins on turn 1, he isn't in the base.

[-Cynthia-]

Um, was there something about BEXPing Rolf in his joining chapter? Because that's impossible. He joins on turn 1, he isn't in the base.

I think you're right, we can't go back to base like in FE10. It doesn't change that much though, because while the enemies are a little better we also have more BEXP to work with.

[Alacalibur]

Am I the only one that thinks Titania is WAY to high? Her lategame fails.

48.220.558.7524.423.519.5518.615.55Hp-Ok

STR-There is much better

Mag-uneeded

Skl-High enough to help with axes

Spd-Can you say Doubled by Ashnard?

Lck-Ok

Def-Broken glass cannon,

Res-average.

Seriously, unless you use her alot early on, her luster begins to dull out.

She is NOT the best character in the game.

[Colonel M]

Erm... English please?

[Rodykitty]

I think she's upset that she isn't judged based on --/20 stats at the final chapter alone.

[The Envoy of the Beginning]

Am I the only one that thinks Titania is WAY to high? Her lategame fails.

48.220.558.7524.423.519.5518.615.55Hp-Ok

STR-There is much better

Mag-uneeded

Skl-High enough to help with axes

Spd-Can you say Doubled by Ashnard?

Lck-Ok

Def-Broken glass cannon,

Res-average.

Seriously, unless you use her alot early on, her luster begins to dull out.

She is NOT the best character in the game.

Actually, she is the best character in the game. And lategame isn't the only thing that matters (she doesn't fail at it anyways).

She can easily kill enemies for a while and still performs well in the late chapters.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Luster Warrior

[Dat Nick]

Too many of those, lately...

Btw, Colonel Mustard? This chick thinks Ogma shouldn't be used on H5 if I'm remembering right.

[Colonel M]

I think she's upset that she isn't judged based on --/20 stats at the final chapter alone.

Tsk... first with H5 topic, and now here. *Sigh*.

Btw, Colonel Mustard? This chick thinks Ogma shouldn't be used on H5 if I'm remembering right.

WHAAAA-?

Edited June 30, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Btw, Colonel Mustard? This chick thinks Ogma shouldn't be used on H5 if I'm remembering right.

The person that said this was some random dude that probably visited that board and never came back.

[Zkirsche]

what happened to neph > Mordy?

I suppose Shinon does win player phase offense with a Brave Bow over a Silver Sword, but we could also have Lucia use the Brave Sword, or they could both use Killers etc. I don't think there's enough competition for swords to make this a major point.

What happened to Zihark/Stefan/Ike/Tanith/Gatrie/Brom?

Edited June 30, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

What happened to Zihark/Stefan/Ike/Tanith/Gatrie/Brom?

Gatrie, Brom, and Tanith have access to Lances, Lances> Swords. Ike has Ragnell for the last 2 chapters, so it's really just 3-4 people competing for swords if Lucia's in play. I didn't say there was no competition, but there's not a whole lot since swords are an inferior weapon type..

Edited June 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dat Nick]

Ike has Ragnell for the last 2 chapters,

But he doesn't have it now.

I think the bottom line here is that Lucia, whilst she may be less rubbish than Shinon latergame, she's still rubbish. Very much rubbish. Shinon has at least had SOME period of time where he was epic where Lucia is just flat out sucking for all of it.

[Zkirsche]

Gatrie, Brom, and Tanith have access to Lances, Lances> Swords. Ike has Ragnell for the last 2 chapters, so it's really just 3-4 people competing for swords if Lucia's in play. I didn't say there was no competition, but there's not a whole lot since swords are an inferior weapon type..

So? Only 1 of them can get the brave lance, but if I include the brave sword into the equation, 2 of those 3 units are pleased.

[-Cynthia-]

So? Only 1 of them can get the brave lance, but if I include the brave sword into the equation, 2 of those 3 units are pleased.

I suppose in the rare case we field Gatrie and Brom this is important. It doesn't really matter because Lucia doesn't want the Brave Sword that much anyway.

Lucia is better than Shinon for six chapters, he's better than she is for 3.5. Describing Shinon's earlygame as "epic" is somewhat of an overstatement, he rarely ORKOs, and he still has his Enemy Phase problem. It's even more of a problem, since every enemy is drawn to Shinon due to Provoke. Shinon drawing fire when he can't counterattack means that enemies live longer than if they would have attacked someone who could fight back.

Edited June 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

I seem to recall Shinon ORKOing consistently with Steel Bow.

[-Cynthia-]

I seem to recall Shinon ORKOing consistently with Steel Bow.

Stat time.

Shinon has 18 Atk with a Steel Bow.

He can't ORKO Lvl 3 Bandits or above (18-5 *2 = 26 Bandits have 29 HP), same story with Lvl 4 Fighters and above.

The Soldier stats vary a lot. He's borderline on lvl 6 and 7 Soldiers, misses on everything above that. Note that

He doesn't even 2RKO Knights.

He ORKOs most Archers, except the level 9 one, he also ORKOs Myrms and Mages.

He doesn't ORKO Weapon Knights.

Overall, he seems to be ORKOing well under half of all enemies, it's a little hard to be specific since Ch5 stats are missing.

Edited June 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

He's injuring those enemies so much that even Soren can land a finishing blow.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

what happened to neph > Mordy?

The only person that disagreed conceded, I went to sleep, came back and saw no more arguments against this so up she goes.

Am I the only one that thinks Titania is WAY to high? Her lategame fails.

*Lategame statistics are everything*

Ugh -__-

The BEXP argument on Shinon seems good but like Cynthia suggests, it is fucking with resources to make Shinon useful... Let's see some level examples to see just how people don't care about BEXP at that point.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Sirius

[Florete]

I'm pretty sure Vykan has a post somewhere where he shows Calill > Ilyana, and possibly > Soren. Don't know if he still has it.

EDIT: Found it.

Calill > Ilyana

Ilyana lv 20/6: 33 hp, 8 str, 19 mag, 21 skl, 17 spd, 8 def, 22 res, 15 lck

Calill lv 20/6: 32 hp, 8 str, 19 mag, 18 skl, 18 spd, 8 def, 17 res, 16 lck

You’ll notice that they are very comparable statistically. However, note that Ilyana will not be 20/6 when Calill joins, since that would involve giving her 21 levels in 8 chapters, which averages to 2.625 levels per chapter, which is absolutely absurd. Hell, there’s a chance Ilyana won’t even be promoted yet, but assuming she is, we would then have:

Ilyana lv 20/1: 30 hp, 7 str, 16 mag, 18 skl, 15 spd, 7 def, 19 res, 12 lck

Calill lv 20/6: 32 hp, 8 str, 19 mag, 18 skl, 18 spd, 8 def, 17 res, 16 lck

Now Ilyana is obviously losing, most notably in the spd and mag department.

Now consider growth rates (+ for Calill, - for Ilyana)

+5% Hp, +0% Str, -5% Mag, 0% Skl, +15% Spd, +25% Def, -15% Res, -15% Lck

So not only is Calill winning in the 2 most important offensive stats, she’s also going to increase those offensive leads thanks to her superior spd growth. Morevoer, her def growth easily overrides any other minor advantage Ilyana has (lol res and luck).

Onto supports. Ilyana’s options are pretty weak. We can throw away Gatrie, Mia and Lucia for obvious reasons, but even if she took Gatrie or Mia, she’s not getting what she really wants, which is avoid. This leaves Mordecai and Zihark. Mordecai I won’t argue against, but Zihark wants A Muarim B Brom before considering Ilyana, so there’s a chance that won’t happen.

Calill, on the other hand, has nothing but supporters who want her. Nephenee, Tormod and Geoffrey all have very small support lists, so by that logic alone Calill has a good shot at netting them. In fact, Geoffrey only has Elincia as an alternative, so if he’s in play, Calill’s practically guaranteed to get him. Then looking at bonuses, Nephenee gets full avoid and partial atk, which is a lot better than partial avoid, atk and full hit she’d get from Devdan. As for Tormod, he gets full atk and partial avoid, which is better than what he gets out of Sothe, Devdan or Reyson, which are all bad support partners anyway for pretty obvious reasons (horrible combat unit who’s only fielded for thieving, a below average unit and a non-attacker who goes around everywhere vigoring people).

So re-examining our second comparison:

Ilyana lv 20/1 (A Mordecai): 30 hp, 7 str, 17 mag, 18 skl, 15 spd, 10 def, 22 res, 12 cev, 42 avo

B Zihark: 11 def, 23 res, 52 avo

Calill lv 20/6: 32 hp, 8 str, 19 mag, 18 skl, 18 spd, 8 def, 17 res, 16 cev, 52 avo

Notice that even with Ilyana fully supported and Calill having nothing, she’s still arguably winning. Supports don’t affect the fact that Calill’s still winning mag and spd sizeably, and most of Ilyana’s advantages are frivolous. 2 def doesn’t do much if it doesn’t allow you to take an extra hit, and Calill leads in hp anyway. She also leads in avo sizeably if that B Zihark doesn’t happen. Ilyana also has that rather huge resistance stat, but considering how frequent enemy mages are, that’s about as significant an advantage as Calill’s superior crit evade.

Then, obviously things become a blowout once Calill’s supports begin to establish. In addition to the aforementioned growth leads and their impact over time, Calill also has better weapon ranks (B in everything, meaning she can use siege tomes of any type and can also use A rank tomes fairly soon, possibly before they’re even available), and gains up to 20 avo and 3 atk (A Neph, B Tormod). Ilyana has no way to match any of this outside of band usage, but that has consequences for other members of the team while she’s around.

Speaking of which, Calill also starts off as a ready-made, RNG proof unit, whereas Ilyana has to go through some earlygame suckage. Sure, Ilyana might have a few chapters of positive performance while Calill isn’t around, but overall, she might not even have a head start in terms of overall team contribution when Calill joins.

I easily see Calill being better, I would even argue she’s better than Soren though that may be pushing it.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Rage Fox