FE9 Tier List

[Alacalibur]

First off, I am not saying lategame is everything. I am saying that Titania's Excellent earlygame is offset by a mediocre lategame. The qualities of the best unit in the is that they game starts good and stays good, Unlike Titania who is a bit rocky come endgame.

[Tino]

When the average performance over the course of the entire game of Titania > the average performance over the course of the entire game of all other units, Titania > all other units. And since the first comparison holds true, so does the second.

This is sort of simplifying the matter, but it should bring the point across.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Tino

[Dr. Tarrasque]

No, she's still doing pretty well in the lategame. "Doubled by Ashnard"? Who gives a shit when that's not happening unless you're retarded?

In the lategame, she's got some supports done and pretty decent avoid. Granted, she may statistically be falling behind the other Paladins but her epic earlygame is more than enough to make up for it.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Sirius

[Tino]

A two tier gap between Ilyana and Tormod? Using some number smash brought up on gfaqs a long time ago:

15/3 Ilyana, B Mordy/C Zihark

29 HP, 5.7 str, 14.5 mag, 14.3 spd, 44.6 avo, 8.6 def, 6 move

Tormod 11/0

22 HP, 2.8 str, 11.8 mag, 10.8 spd, 31 avo, 5 def, 7 move

15/6 Ilyana, A Mordy/B Zihark

30.3 HP, 6.5 str, 16 mag, 15.2 spd, 52.7 avo, 11.1 def, 6 move

15/1 Tormod

28 HP, 5.6 str, 14.6 mag, 14.6 spd, 40 avo, 8 def, 8 move

15/15 Ilyana, A Mordy/B Zihark

34.4 HP, 8.7 str, 20.5 mag, 17.9 spd, 62.2 avo, 12.4 def, 6 move

15/10 Tormod, A Reyson/C Calill

32.5 HP, 7.4 str, 18.6 mag, 18.6 spd, 53.1 avo, 10.2 def, 8 move

15/20 Ilyana, A Mordy/B Zihark

36.6 HP, 10 str, 23 mag, 19.4 spd, 67.4 avo, 13.2 def, 6 move

15/15 Tormod, A Reyson/B Calill

35 HP, 8.4 str, 20.9 mag, 20.9 spd, 62.5 avo, 11.5 def, 8 move

15/20 Tormod, A Reyson/B Calill

37.5 HP, 9.4 str, 23.1 mag, 23.1 spd, 68.6 avo, 12.7 def, 8 move

Well, it's clear that Ilyana raeps Tormod at midgame, but Tormod raeps her back at lategame. The offense gaps at their largest are actually about the same size (Ilyana wins att by 3.7 and spd by 3.5, and Tormod wins att by 4.1 and spd by 3.7).

However, Ilyana wins concrete durability forever, and has shade, but Tormod also wins mobility forever.

I'm not saying one > another, but they definitely shouldn't so far away from eachother.

[Dat Nick]

Whilst Lucia does beat Shinon for more chapters numerically, Shinon is there during the worst steps of the game [earlygame] and he's helping your low level guys get kills easily.

[Zkirsche]

Why is Neph < Stefan?

Nephenee beats Stefan in chapters 11, 12, 13 and 14 for simply doing stuff.

Nephenee beats Stefan in supports, as she has a wider range of supports and a better affinity.

By chapter 16, let's give her 1.75 levels per chapter and a single level in chapter 15. Neph will also 'C' Brom, for what it's worth (Not much, but more than what Stefan has):

15/0 Nephenee with a forged steel lance, 'C' Brom, 7 uses fighter band, 1 KW use:

27 HP, 27 Atk, 16 AS, 42 Avo, 12 Def, 5 Res

xx/8 Stefan with a forged steel sword:

38 HP, 32 Atk, 25 AS, 55 Avo, 12 Def, 9 Res

It's a clear win for Stefan... oh wait. This is forgetting one thing:

Wrath + vantage. This combo has proven to be badass so I won't botehr with more details than this.

Aside from this, Neph has existant 1-2 range in the form of javelins (And perhaps forged javelins).

So Stefan isn't wtfraeping her. He's still better though. Skip ahead a bit, and all this changes (chapter 18):

20/1 Nephenee with same resources + 3 KW uses and +3 pally band uses, 'B' Brom, 'B' Devdan:

34 HP, 33 Atk, 21.5 AS, 61-63 Avo, 17 Def, 9 Res

xx/10 Stefan with forged steel, 2 fighter band uses, 'B' Soren, 'B' Mordy:

40 HP, 35 Atk, 26 AS, 62.5 Avo, 14 Def, 10 Res

Offensively, it's a clear win for Neph, wrath + vantage combo and 1-2 range > superfluous speed lead + 2 Atk.

Defensively, it's 3 Def vs 6 HP + 1 Res. I'll give it to Stefan.

Neph's offensive lead > Stefan's defensive lead.

Growth time:

Nephenee: 55/40/55/135/35/20 -- HP/Atk/AS/Avo/Def/Res

Stefan: 70/50/55/135/35/30 -- HP/Atk/AS/Avo/Def/Res

This looks like a win from Stefan. But when you consider that Neph is ~2/3 the level that Stefan is, she gets the superier growths.

Nephenee > Stefan.

[-Cynthia-]

I agree with Calill>Illyana. Calill is going be to better than Illyana at jointime, barring RNG blessing, and ends up being better unit at Endgame too, mostly due to doubling almost all enemies while Illyana has doubling issues. Illyana's going to need a Seal or a lot of BEXP to become comparable to Calill, which I would have to call favoritism. There seems to be a general consensus that Illyana is overrated, which I agree with as she's fairly unremarkable.

I agree with Nephenee>Stefan, except the part where Nephenee is an asset when Stefan isn't around. Nephenee isn't very good compared to the rest of the team in her opening chapter, she does become better but is not instantly good. There's also the fact that Stefan is a decent user of Vantage due to high base crit.

Edited June 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

Any thoughts on Reyson > Kieran + Jill? Here's my argument:

Anyway, I can honestly see reyson going higher also. He works the best with laguz stones and when transformed he has the utility of ~4 units. Let's say he averages the utility of 2 units in one chapter. This gives him +24 chapters of utility. Kieran only has +21 (chapter 15 = neautral utility). Jill has less, but Oscar has more. Then, Reyson has a pretty good support list too (Tanith, Ike, Tormod appreciates his support as well). He can easily get Tanith/Tormod. I'd consider him a very viable option for 3rd best unit in this game, if not the second.

Also ,I believe Ilyana + Rhys should be lower mid, Vykan did a good job showing that.

I agree with Nephenee>Stefan, except the part where Nephenee is an asset when Stefan isn't around. Nephenee isn't very good compared to the rest of the team in her opening chapter, she does become better but is not instantly good. There's also the fact that Stefan is a decent user of Vantage due to high base crit.

She does more than Stefan does, though. Chip damage > no chip damage.

Edited June 30, 2009 by kirsche

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I agree with Calill>Illyana. Calill is going be to better than Illyana at jointime, barring RNG blessing, and ends up being better unit at Endgame too, mostly due to doubling almost all enemies while Illyana has doubling issues. Illyana's going to need a Seal or a lot of BEXP to become comparable to Calill, which I would have to call favoritism. There seems to be a general consensus that Illyana is overrated, which I agree with as she's fairly unremarkable.

Never really said she was... her current position is mostly because an early promoted Ilyana seems better Rhys. IIRC, that post by Vykan was made before the early promotion was considered.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Sirius

[Dat Nick]

There's also the fact that Stefan is a decent user of Vantage due to high base crit.

What he doesn't have is 1-2 range, which means he's going to take it from archers and mages, hard.

[dondon151]

Whilst Lucia does beat Shinon for more chapters numerically, Shinon is there during the worst steps of the game [earlygame] and he's helping your low level guys get kills easily.

Chapters also need to be given more weight than just "Lucia > Shinon" or "Shinon > Lucia." Shinon's earlygame relative to the team is awesome. Lucia's lategame relative to the team is terrible. There is no way that anyone can justify Lucia's lategame advantage just by the number of chapters when she sucks so much in all of them.

[Zkirsche]

Any thoughts on Reyson > Kieran and Jill, Sirius?

Also, may I ask why Janaff < Mia?

[-Cynthia-]

Chapters also need to be given more weight than just "Lucia > Shinon" or "Shinon > Lucia." Shinon's earlygame relative to the team is awesome. Lucia's lategame relative to the team is terrible. There is no way that anyone can justify Lucia's lategame advantage just by the number of chapters when she sucks so much in all of them.

If this is agreed upon by everyone, then may I suggest moving Gatrie up? Gatrie very well in his earlygame chapters, and is somewhat useful to the team when he returns. He's very strong and durable, his AS and his Mov are his only real issues. Let's compare him to Ranulf, I won't even give him any KW access, but remember that it's a possibility that will allow Gatrie to double (some things eventually).

20/8 Gatrie (forged Steel Lance B Astrid)

48 HP 40 Atk 12 AS 26 Def 9 Res 38 Avo

9 Ranulf

46 HP 33 Atk 20 AS 22 Def 9 Res 53 Avo

I would say 2 HP/4 Def is better than 15 Avo. Ranulf obviously doubles more often, but Gatrie is the clear winner against Knights and any enemy Ranulf doesn't double(Myrms, Cats). Both of them 2RKO most opponents, except they both ORKO Sages(though Gatrie doesn't take a counter). Ranulf's Mov lead is pretty significant, but Gatrie has 1-2 range and no transform issues.

Things get even better for Gatrie with more reosources, A forged Silver makes him have 12 more Atk than Ranulf. A Brave Sword/Brave Lance allows Gatrie to double and he'll still hit harder than Ranulf. Add in the fact that Gatrie has earlygame utility and is at least marginally useful in Ch13 on, and I don't see how Ranulf is better.

@ kirsche Mia has Vantage, lacks transform issues, has existent supports, and much better offense because forges> lol beak.

Edited June 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Any thoughts on Reyson > Kieran and Jill, Sirius?

Also, may I ask why Janaff < Mia?

I'll wait to see if there's any counter-arguments on that and Neph > Stefan.

No fucking clue. It was like that before I started updating this. Though I don't see how Mia < Janaff...

Edited June 30, 2009 by Sirius

[Zkirsche]

Gatrie also has some quite good supports, inlcuding Marcia and Astrid, neither mind getting him due to lack of better options (Light > Wind).

Plus, Ranulf has tranformation issues and doesn't double bird laguz.

The only thing hurting Gatrie is mobility.

Though I don't see how Mia < Janaff...

Flight, attack, durability too. The only thing in Mia's favour is availabiltiy, which might actually hurt her due to her poor performance.

and much better offense because forges> lol beak

Janaff also costs nothing and doesn't waste a valuable chapter's worth of forging.

Mia with an ordinary steel sword has to be level 20/9 to exceed Janaff's base attack.

Edited June 30, 2009 by kirsche

[Dat Nick]

kirsche Mia has Vantage

Vantage on it's own is not that great of a skill. It only really does anything useful when combined with wrath, as lategame [And thats the only time Mia can even say she's of any use] attacking something first makes basically no difference as you're still eating a counter. Vantage only makes a difference if you kill on the first strike, and that won't happen by itself lategame as the game just kicked into Easy Mode once everybody promotes and even your low mid tier guys like Tormod start being pwn offensively.

Yes, there is wrath, and Mia makes decent use of it....but unlike with Vantage, Mia's not the only character who can make good use of wrath. Oscar comes to mind right off the bat.

[-Cynthia-]

Vantage on it's own is not that great of a skill. It only really does anything useful when combined with wrath, as lategame [And thats the only time Mia can even say she's of any use] attacking something first makes basically no difference as you're still eating a counter. Vantage only makes a difference if you kill on the first strike, and that won't happen by itself lategame as the game just kicked into Easy Mode once everybody promotes and even your low mid tier guys like Tormod start being pwn offensively.

Yes, there is wrath, and Mia makes decent use of it....but unlike with Vantage, Mia's not the only character who can make good use of wrath. Oscar comes to mind right off the bat.

Mia still has a decent chance to crit even without Wrath. 20/3 Mia with a max crit forge has 34 Crit for example( a Killing Edge/Vague Katti gives her more). PoR enemies have really low Luck, generally in the 3-5 range by this point, so if Mia gets attacked at 1 range she has about a 1/3 chance not to take damage, which is significant.

Also, Oscar comes to mind with Wrath? Oscar, with his super durability, with a skill that relies him being at 50%? You can think of a better example I'm sure.

[Dat Nick]

with his super durability, with a skill that relies him being at 50%?

It's not that hard to lose HP if you actually try. Move Oscar away from his supports and he'll get hit a lot easier.

[Zkirsche]

Also, Oscar comes to mind with Wrath? Oscar, with his super durability, with a skill that relies him being at 50%? You can think of a better example I'm sure.

The durability lets him live at 50% HP. It's easy enougth to reduce his avo by getting out of Ike's support radius.

[-Cynthia-]

The durability lets him live at 50% HP. It's easy enougth to reduce his avo by getting out of Ike's support radius.

So to use it on Oscar we:

1. Willingly lower his durability, Ike's durability, and probably Kieran's durability.

2. Hope Oscar takes enough hits to get him down to 50%. Let's say we have 20/8 Oscar in Ch19, he has 42 HP/18 Def. How about some enemy attack totals?

Level 18 Soldiers have 21 Atk with a Steel Lance. Oscar is activating Wrath range after being attacked by 7 Soldiers, assuming they all hit. Basically, Oscar can maybe reach 50% near the end of chapters if he tries really hard, stays out of support range of his partners, and is lucky to get hit enough.

3. The payoff is that Oscar ORKOs more, but Oscar generally doesn't have too many problems ORKOing post promotion anyway. I'm not really seeing how this is even remotely as useful as it would be on Mia.

Edited June 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

What about largo then? And Marcia? And Astrid? And Stefan? etcetera. Wrath is more wanted than Vantage.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Wrath on Oscar arguments = Fail.

What about largo then? Wrath is more wanted than Vantage.

Holding on that scroll for about 6 chapters is not really good use of it.

Italics is true.

[Dat Nick]

1. Willingly lower his durability, Ike's durability, and probably Kieran's durability.

Oscar's the one deliberately running away from his supports, this meaning he will be exposed to more enemy attack, this meaning Ike doesn't care that he loses durability, since Oscar's the one getting hit.

2. Hope Oscar takes enough hits to get him down to 50%. Let's say we have 20/8 Oscar in Ch19, he has 42 HP/18 Def. How about some enemy attack totals?

...It doesn't have to all happen in one turn, you're aware.

3. The payoff is that Oscar ORKOs more, but Oscar generally doesn't have too many problems ORKOing post promotion anyway.

If that was the case, everybody would have admitted Oscar>Kieran long before Kirsche bought it up.

[Zkirsche]

If that was the case, everybody would have admitted Oscar>Kieran long before Kirsche bought it up.

Or perhaps that's because they never looked into it and just assumed it. 20/1 Oscar with a forged steel axe has 32 Atk. That's enougth to ORKO pretty much any enemy in chapter 17.4 save generals, and he has the hammer/heavy lance for those.

Edited June 30, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

What about largo then? And Marcia? And Astrid? And Stefan? etcetera. Wrath is more wanted than Vantage.

Mia's the only one getting defensive benefits though (unless we're throwing Wrath+ Vantage on them, but that's two scrolls). Marcia and Astrid have less crit than Mia does, and none of these characters receive a durability boost from Wrath. Mia on the other hand, has over an 80% chance to not take a 1 range attack with Vantage activated, which is pretty good.