FE9 Tier List

[Colonel M]

So, let me get this straight: in order to make use of Mist, I have to assume the following:

1) An A support that takes 9 Chapters to complete that also starts on C11 and a B support that starts on C12 that takes 5.

2) Possibility of a Crown (or Seal) that could've been used on someone such as Soren or a plethora of other units.

3) An Arms Scroll which possibly adds +4K or allows a Magic user a more practical option of using another tome (Calill and Rexbolt would like to happen sooner IMO).

4) A Steel Sword forge that is -3 Wt and max Mt, which I can't say will be very cheap.

5) Possible BEXP, if necessary, to help catch up in levels.

Other than perhaps Step 5 and maybe Step 1, there seems to be quite a bit of favoritism here for her. Then her durability isn't even that awesome due to her pitiful HP stat.

EDIT: Speaking of cash, that Sonic Sword and Runesword are pretty valuable.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

4) A Steel Sword forge that is -3 Wt and max Mt, which I can't say will be very cheap.

The wt shouldn't be nessacary. Also, a forged steel is like, 3500.

Edited July 1, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Shadow Mir]

An Arms Scroll which possibly adds +4K or allows a Magic user a more practical option of using another tome (Calill and Rexbolt would like to happen sooner IMO).

What? Why the fuss over a tome that's available for all of 1 chapter? And considering how much cash you get over the course of the game, that argument doesn't sound very convincing either.

EDIT: Speaking of cash, that Sonic Sword and Runesword are pretty valuable.

See above.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Jonathan Aulin

[Colonel M]

Who says you have to do the -3 WT?

-3 AS. It wouldn't be so bad on the 20/1 Mist, but more would be needed on the earlier ones.

What? Why the fuss over a tome that's available for alll of 1 chapter?

Not the only possibility either. Any tome in general.

[Xort]

A Seal is unessecary, as she can promote by reaching LVL 21.

Most other people aren't going to need an Arms Scroll, and giving it to Calill, as you said, so she can use Rexbolt is just as much favoratism as using it on Mist; perhaps even moresom since Rexbolt is one-of-a-kind, whereas Steel Swords are in infinite supply.

Won't exactly be cheap, but you have plenty of funds in PoR. Hell, two chapters alone later on will net you 70,000 and then 20,000. A forged Steel is nothing.

Yeah, HP is bad, but full defense with Mordecai support and possible Avo from Jill helps a bit.

[Robert]

I am not saying he should rise, because I have never used him, but why is Rolf bottom? Is it his underleveledness an base stats?

[Colonel M]

The Seal argument was if she promoted earlier, which in turn screws up her durability a bit and even her offense. Now she needs a more expensive forge if she wants to do shit, but in return gains the Canto + Horse earlier.

Ugh, ffs, can we just focus on Volke vs. Mist? I understand that Mist has these advantages, one does not have to tell me that over and over. We just need to focus on who's helping the team more utility-wise: Volke or Mist.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Colonel M

[-Cynthia-]

A Seal is unessecary, as she can promote by reaching LVL 21.

Most other people aren't going to need an Arms Scroll, and giving it to Calill, as you said, so she can use Rexbolt is just as much favoratism as using it on Mist; perhaps even moresom since Rexbolt is one-of-a-kind, whereas Steel Swords are in infinite supply.

Won't exactly be cheap, but you have plenty of funds in PoR. Hell, two chapters alone later on will net you 70,000 and then 20,000. A forged Steel is nothing.

Yeah, HP is bad, but full defense with Mordecai support and possible Avo from Jill helps a bit.

Calill doesn't even really need the Arms Scroll. She starts with a B in thunder tomes. She gets 3 WEXP for a Bolting, 2 for Thoron/Elthunder, and 1 for Thunder. Calill doubles almost all the time, so this basically averages out to 4 WEXP per round of combat Calill is in. She should be primarily using thunder tomes anyway, since they have the most Mt, so 40 rounds of combat in 9 chapters is pretty reasonable IMO.

Edited July 1, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Xort]

Mist supports Mordecai and Jill, providing epic bonuses to Mordy with full ATK and DEF, and is also providing +1 ATK, +2 DEF, and +5 AVO for Jill. She heals, she fights, and she provides epic support bonuses to good characters.

Volke can't do shit as far as fighting goes, so Mist beats him there. He's providing thief utility, though, and having better durability than Sothe, along with a promotion, makes him the more logical choice for the job. However, he really doesn't net you anything spectacular, and on maps where he is deployed you have to be careful due to low durability.

On another note, guess what Volke's support options are? Bastian. Wow. His only support option is the second worst character in the game. Even if you do field Bastian and give him A Volke, all it adds it +15 to hit and Avo. But we're not fielding Bastian.

Mist has epic supports, nice offense (+4 ATK with A Mordy B Jill), good durability (+5 DEF and AVO with A Mordy B Jill), and has healer utility, along with a pony. She helps quite a bit when fighting the BK, although that only really gets you Nasir. Still, having Nasir > having Ena.

Volke has shit for offense, shit for durability, and lawl supports. Thief utility, yeah, but that's the only way he benefits the team. I think Mist is fine where she is.

[Colonel M]

Fun fact: 20/1 Volke without supports has slightly better durability than 20/1 Mist:

Volke - 34 HP | 11 Def

Mist (B in both support partners) - 29 HP | 12 Def

Then for offense...

Volke (Stilleto) - 28 Atk (effective on Armors)

Mist (forged Steel) - 26 Atk

I'm not 100% sure if Stilleto is around. If not, Volke's Atk drops by 4, so it's 2 less than to that of Mist.

EDIT: One could use a Def band to at least improve on his Def a bit, since the growth jumps from 20 to 25%, and the Soldier Band would do. This also boosts his HP growth up from 65 -> 70%.

You were saying?

Edited July 1, 2009 by Colonel M

[Xort]

And just how is Volke getting 20/1? Volke is used for thief utility, not combat. Even if you do use BEXP on him, which IMO is a total waste, I doubt he hits LVL 20 before forced promotion.

And lol@ Volke and offense. That's like saying "Titania" and "sucks" in the same sentence. And where do you propose Volke gets a Stilleto before CH 19? I'm pretty sure the first one doesn't show up for 5 more chapters when Bastian joins, although I might be wrong. I haven't played in a while. And of course, I must once again stress just how unlikely it is that Volke reaches LVL 20 in the first place.

But let's just say he does, due to BEXP (since, of course, we all know he's not getting there due to combat).Mist will continue to routinely battle, heal, and recieve BEXP for the remainder of the game; Volke will continue to steal, avoid combat, and possibly recieve BEXP throughout the game. This puts Mist at an advantage, as she will continue to gain many more levels than Volke, and thus increase the gap between the two of them; not to mention, if she hasn't achieved A Mordecai by this point, it's coming soon. That widens the gap even further, all while Volke sits on the sidelines twiddling his thumbs and waiting for something to steal.

Finally, let's get to my favorite part: how they benefit the team. You conveniently ignored that in your last post; how does Volke benefit the team, aside from thievery in a few chapters? He doesn't. Mist, however, provides good bonuses to two very good characters, strengthening your team in addition to her offense, defense, and healing. Mist is more likely to lead offensively, defensively, and she benefits the team quite well. Volke sucks at combat, is somewhat durable if you deem it worthy to BEXP him up to a good level, and benefits no one with supports.

You were saying?

[Colonel M]

And just how is Volke getting 20/1? Volke is used for thief utility, not combat. Even if you do use BEXP on him, which IMO is a total waste, I doubt he hits LVL 20 before forced promotion.

Volke should obtain EXP when he steals items that aren't from chests, then a little combat isn't hurting him. He's not loluber in power, but he can do something on the side if we're saying Mist can.

And lol@ Volke and offense. That's like saying "Titania" and "sucks" in the same sentence. And where do you propose Volke gets a Stilleto before CH 19? I'm pretty sure the first one doesn't show up for 5 more chapters when Bastian joins, although I might be wrong. I haven't played in a while. And of course, I must once again stress just how unlikely it is that Volke reaches LVL 20 in the first place.

Dagger is more likely, which I've said is -2 Atk in comparison to Mist. With supports, mind you.

But let's just say he does, due to BEXP (since, of course, we all know he's not getting there due to combat).Mist will continue to routinely battle, heal, and recieve BEXP for the remainder of the game; Volke will continue to steal, avoid combat, and possibly recieve BEXP throughout the game. This puts Mist at an advantage, as she will continue to gain many more levels than Volke, and thus increase the gap between the two of them; not to mention, if she hasn't achieved A Mordecai by this point, it's coming soon. That widens the gap even further, all while Volke sits on the sidelines twiddling his thumbs and waiting for something to steal.

How can Mist "routinely" battle if Volke cannot? Isn't this pulling a double standard here?

Finally, let's get to my favorite part: how they benefit the team. You conveniently ignored that in your last post; how does Volke benefit the team, aside from thievery in a few chapters? He doesn't. Mist, however, provides good bonuses to two very good characters, strengthening your team in addition to her offense, defense, and healing. Mist is more likely to lead offensively, defensively, and she benefits the team quite well. Volke sucks at combat, is somewhat durable if you deem it worthy to BEXP him up to a good level, and benefits no one with supports.

You were saying?

I didn't bother because you brush off Thief utility like it's nothing. I'll just re-direct you back to Sirius's post which had some of the items that Volke can steal for us. On top of that, there's a ton of Staves that are practically easy to steal, so that would help benefit our healers and our pockets from spending money.

This entire post seems to be double standard all over the place anyway, so why should I really bother?

[Dat Nick]

And just how is Volke getting 20/1? Volke is used for thief utility, not combat. Even if you do use BEXP on him, which IMO is a total waste, I doubt he hits LVL 20 before forced promotion.

Volke likes not being dead. Dead theives can't steal anything.

also, he may need the extra spd to steal some items

Edited July 1, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Xort]

Volke cannot routinely fight due to shitty weapon type, along with bad supports. Mist has a shitty weapon type too, but it's better than lolknives. Anyway, Mist would have to be on the front lines to benefit Mordecai and Jill, so she'll be seeing more action than a certain thief who won't be there.

Thief utility isn't nothing, but in response to your redirectory to Sirius's post, I invite you to look at Tino's debate with B2BD. Tino does a nice job of explaining here just how inconsequential thievery is in the long run, so I'll go the lazy route and let him do the talking for me: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=15201

He goes over it in the first few chapters of his post, so no tl;dr excuse shall stand. And as for the extra spending money you mentioned, yes, it is nice, but totally unecessary. Funds are a nonissue in this game, as you get a shitload just going through the story.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Xort

[Florete]

People think Mist should go lower? Didn't Ilyana and Soren go up because of a sudden notice of possible early staff use (Which I still don't completely agree with, but w/e)?

Seriously, I could see Mist going even higher, not lower. I've seen her above Ike on a tier list before.

[Colonel M]

Dagger, shop-wise, is available by C15, which will bolster his offense a bit. I admit his Atk isn't great, but to say that Mist is much better might as well put your logic of "Titania" and "suck" in the same sentence.

Also, without someone like Volke, good luck getting some of your early Physics to help boost Mist's levels. Ah well, guess that isn't necessary, right?

EDIT: Also, some of those goodies like Speedwings and Energy Drops are lost due to him not being deployed. I don't totally disagree with Tino, but BB showed some items that give him a reason to be deployed.

Seriously, I could see Mist going even higher, not lower. I've seen her above Ike on a tier list before.

Do I dare ask where?

Edited July 1, 2009 by Colonel M

[Xort]

Daggers are still poop. Stilleto barely gave an ATK lead, so a Dagger puts him even worse. A forged Steel is better than a Dagger, and like I said, Mist sees more combat than Volke. Mist gains more levels. Mist gains attack lead. Simple, no? Not to mention, Mist sees more combat than Volke, thus puts her ATK to better use.

And I never said Volke wasn't good. Yeah, he helps Mist gain levels, but they aren't entirely necessary anyway. Still, even if they were, the fact is that she gets them, she gains levels, and she gets good. Like I said, thief utility is helpful, but Mist benefits the team more than Volke does. As such, Mist should stay above Volke, and in high tier.

[Florete]

Do I dare ask where?

I'm not going to try to argue her up at this point in time, just letting everyone know I'm for keeping her in High tier and will argue further if needed.

[-Cynthia-]

I was never a big Mist supporter, but if Soren and Ilyana moved up due to early healing and Rhys is as high as he is due to early healing, it seems rather silly to move down Mist when she can use staves without resources (unlike Soren/Ilyana), has more Mov/Canto than any of them, and has the best support list out of all of them(and probably the entire game). With the tier list the way it is, moving Mist down seems illogical. I'm personally of the opinion that healing utility is being overrated and Rhys and Ilyana should move down as a result, but until this happens, moving Mist makes no sense.

Edited July 1, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[uzy5o]

They have already been moved down.

[Tino]

Since it was ignored earlier:

A two tier gap between Ilyana and Tormod? Using some number smash brought up on gfaqs a long time ago:

15/3 Ilyana, B Mordy/C Zihark

29 HP, 5.7 str, 14.5 mag, 14.3 spd, 44.6 avo, 8.6 def, 6 move

Tormod 11/0

22 HP, 2.8 str, 11.8 mag, 10.8 spd, 31 avo, 5 def, 7 move

15/6 Ilyana, A Mordy/B Zihark

30.3 HP, 6.5 str, 16 mag, 15.2 spd, 52.7 avo, 11.1 def, 6 move

15/1 Tormod

28 HP, 5.6 str, 14.6 mag, 14.6 spd, 40 avo, 8 def, 8 move

15/15 Ilyana, A Mordy/B Zihark

34.4 HP, 8.7 str, 20.5 mag, 17.9 spd, 62.2 avo, 12.4 def, 6 move

15/10 Tormod, A Reyson/C Calill

32.5 HP, 7.4 str, 18.6 mag, 18.6 spd, 53.1 avo, 10.2 def, 8 move

15/20 Ilyana, A Mordy/B Zihark

36.6 HP, 10 str, 23 mag, 19.4 spd, 67.4 avo, 13.2 def, 6 move

15/15 Tormod, A Reyson/B Calill

35 HP, 8.4 str, 20.9 mag, 20.9 spd, 62.5 avo, 11.5 def, 8 move

15/20 Tormod, A Reyson/B Calill

37.5 HP, 9.4 str, 23.1 mag, 23.1 spd, 68.6 avo, 12.7 def, 8 move

Well, it's clear that Ilyana raeps Tormod at midgame, but Tormod raeps her back at lategame. The offense gaps at their largest are actually about the same size (Ilyana wins att by 3.7 and spd by 3.5, and Tormod wins att by 4.1 and spd by 3.7).

However, Ilyana wins concrete durability forever, and has shade, but Tormod also wins mobility forever.

I'm not saying one > another, but they definitely shouldn't so far away from eachother.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I was never a big Mist supporter, but if Soren and Ilyana moved up due to early healing and Rhys is as high as he is due to early healing, it seems rather silly to move down Mist when she can use staves without resources (unlike Soren/Ilyana), has more Mov/Canto than any of them, and has the best support list out of all of them(and probably the entire game). With the tier list the way it is, moving Mist down seems illogical. I'm personally of the opinion that healing utility is being overrated and Rhys and Ilyana should move down as a result, but until this happens, moving Mist makes no sense.

The thing is that a 20/1 Mist will do the healing later in the game and as YOU have said many times, it is less valuable there and as already pointed out:

They have already been moved down.

for that very reason.

Now let's look at 10/1 Mist:

for Max BEXP, chapter 9 has an 8 turn limit, C10 has 12 (and that's where you get the first Master Seal) and C11 has a 7 turn limit.

Assuming she heals each and every turn (which is possibly not happening as there may be some turns she can't heal) and we last that many turns on the chapters, this is 297 EXP if we assume Heal, 324 if we assume it's always Mend (which ain't happening) and 315 if we assume 10 Heals and 17 Mend.

Thus, she'd be lvl 4. To get either of the first 2 Master Seals she'll need more BEXP use than the others. Now let's compare 10/1 Mist with 10/1 Soren, which requires less BEXP and was a bit of an asset in the earlygame despite his combat sucking. Both with leveled all the way with one of the SPD bands.

Mist:

23.5 HP

6.1 STR

12.5 MAG

7.2 SKL

14.1 SPD

6.3 DEF

12.6 RES

11.4 LCK

Soren:

26.1 HP

2.45 STR

12.4 MAG (with +10% more growth so it ties with Mist in the next level up)

14.9 SKL

14.1 SPD

5.3 DEF

14.0 RES

7.7 LCK

With such STR, she's losing AS with Steel Sword... 6 if you leave it unforged and 1 if you forge as much WT as possible.

Now since people love favoritism on Mist, let's apply it. But to fair, we're also forging a weapon for Soren of equal value in gold.

13 MT and 7 WT Steel Sword for Mist = 4823 Gold

Ah damn it there's no listed way to calculate the forging costs for Thunder with 2 WT and some MT to make the value equal to Mists' weapon. Until some1 confirms how much stat adjustment (-1 WT, rest on MT) to forge a Thunder to equal value of that, I'll just assume +3 MT and -1 WT is less than 4k Gold.

So now we have either of these in C11:

Mist:

19 ATK (Targets DEF)

100 Hit

13.1 AS

37 AVO

1 Range

Soren:

19 ATK (Targets RES)

120 Hit

14.1 AS

35 AVO

1-2 Range

No supports for Mist at this time other than Rolf which would just result in 2 accuracy and 2 avoid. C support with Ike for Soren would cancel out Mist' slight AVO lead (which has issues when facing WTD which is rather common around these chapters) but I won't bother including it due to "Ike would rather support some1 else" and shit like that. Even if we assumed A support with Mordy at this point, her damage would still be slightly lower. After some comparisons with the enemies, Soren's 1RKOing some lance users (if not all), Mist isn't.

What Mist has above him at this point is just MOV which isn't a big deal at this point or else there'd be no freaking way for units like Boyd to even make it lategame and of course Staff WEXP which I've previously shown to be no issue since the others will be able to use Physic and B ranked staves by the time those show up. Mist can get Fortify later, Ilyana and Soren may not.

So yeah, 10/1 Mist is still weaker and needed more BEXP for this, thus she's not going to go up due to 10/1 promotion. 20/1 Mist comes later and is more inferior to the 10/1 healers in the time she's not promoted not to mention that her 20/1 superior healing comes when "healing is less valuable" as you say.

It's undeniable that she has better supports options and is indeed the better lategame healer but due to that being "less valuable" in the lategame and the other healers doing better in the midgame where it's more valuable, the difference between their positions seems a bit odd.

Tino, where do you suggest I move Tormod? For now I'm thinking of moving Ilyana down to top of lower mid since I do agree that Healing becomes less valuable later in the game, Rhys' earlygame healing is a very good contribution and she's not an asset in the earlygame chapters since she comes in C8 and after that she's competing with people for spots and her stat differences with Rhys aren't as big as Soren vs Rhys.

Ilyana to lower mid.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Sirius

[Tino]

I'd say Tormod should move somewhere slightly below Ilyana. At least really close to her, without a tier gap. The numbers speak for themselves.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Tino

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Above who? Can't just move him without considering how he competes against the others.

[Tino]

I also don't really know. Though, I can see Ilyana drop below Calill fairly easily, so I guess Tormod would do well below Devdan, I guess.