FE9 Tier List

[-Cynthia-]

I have reservation about this. Mia's supports all benefit her more than her partner. Rhys literally gets nothing out of the support. Ilyana doesn't get much help out of 1 extra attack. And Mia getting 25 extra hit is the epitome of superfluous.

You know Rhys can attack post promotion, right? And when someone attacks, generally +3 Atk is preferred over +0. I'm not saying Mia/Rhys is a great support, but to call the bonus to Rhys "useless" is just silly.

[Shadow Mir]

You know Rhys can attack post promotion, right? And when someone attacks, generally +3 Atk is preferred over +0. I'm not saying Mia/Rhys is a great support, but to call the bonus to Rhys "useless" is just silly.

Oh yeah, OK. It helps Rhys go from not one-rounding to.....Not one-rounding.

[grandjackal]

Arguing Tauroneo is really dependent upon two things, whether he has access to Braves and whether it's reasonable for him to get into Resolve range. If he can fix his doubling issues, he's obviously a good character, only lacking in Mov.

For Largo, let's wait until enemy stats come out, because I'm not really sure how bad his durability actually is.

Guess we'll have to wait for enemy stats to get in, but I still remember him being pretty damn easy to kill.

As for Tauroneo? Tauroneo needs to take damage to not suck, which requires him to reach the enemy, which he sucks at doing. Janaff transforms instantly, and is of immediate use with his much larger move and flight, which means he can keep up with the main force of your army. Tauroneo doesn't even want supports, as it makes him harder to kill, but in turn makes it harder to get resolve to kick in. Not that his options are much better than Janaff. Janaff can at least put his supports to good use while making them harder to kill. Shinon gets full boosts which he would love considering how he needs to recover when he returns, and Lucia would LOVE more avoid and a bit of defense. Taur's got lolRolf, and him helping Largo is a minimum use at best, as he comes pretty late regardless, and 1 defense with 15 avoid is not helping Largo enough.

I have reservation about this. Mia's supports all benefit her more than her partner. Rhys literally gets nothing out of the support. Ilyana doesn't get much help out of 1 extra attack. And Mia getting 25 extra hit is the epitome of superfluous.

Rhys hits harder with Mia, something he doesn't get from his other 2 supports. 1 Def is not helping Rhys with Titania and he is not getting enough avoid from Keiran to suddenly make him a dodge tank. If anything, Mia's his best bet. He'd prefer more damage as it helps him do stronger chip. Certainly would help if he were sealed early.

Illyana has partners who have better options as well. Besides, Mia just wants a B. Better than Illyana getting nothing. Thunder isn't too accurate, she'd love more accuracy.

I will be cautious about it, but Mia's not just a random character with a sword.

[Swordsalmon]

I have reservation about this. Mia's supports all benefit her more than her partner. Rhys literally gets nothing out of the support. Ilyana doesn't get much help out of 1 extra attack. And Mia getting 25 extra hit is the epitome of superfluous.

Rhys can use Resire after promotion, and +3 damage does help him gain more EXP. Also, he has almost literally no other options. Titania and Kieran don't want to slow down more (Especially since Titania will be moving slower with Ike and Boyd supports), Ulki isn't around long enough for more than a B, and Rofl is Rofl. An A support with Mia will at least benefit after promotion.

Also, Mia might be the best candidate for Wrath, given her Vantage skill and +15% critical as a Swordmaster. With Rhys support, a Killing Edge, and Wrath, Mia can deal quite a bit of damage if need be. ^_^

[grandjackal]

Lessee...

15 crit bonus+ 8 at promotion from skill + 30 from killer edges+50 from wrath...

...So who here didn't realize that Mia could pull off infini-crit? Well...as long as she has a killer edge anyways. With vantage, she's pretty much bitchslapping any dumbass who comes into melee range. Potentially makes melee units disappear.

Even then, without a killer edge it's...73. Don't only berserkers and swordmasters with full crit support in FE6 or 7get that sort of crit rate?

[Shadow Mir]

Rhys can use Resire after promotion, and +3 damage does help him gain more EXP. Also, he has almost literally no other options. Titania and Kieran don't want to slow down more (Especially since Titania will be moving slower with Ike and Boyd supports), Ulki isn't around long enough for more than a B, and Rofl is Rofl. An A support with Mia will at least benefit after promotion.

Also, Mia might be the best candidate for Wrath, given her Vantage skill and +15% critical as a Swordmaster. With Rhys support, a Killing Edge, and Wrath, Mia can deal quite a bit of damage if need be. ^_^

Puh-leez. Nosferatu? More like Nosfailatu! Could you have made it any more obvious that you're grasping at straws? All that does is make Rhys's AS vanish like a puff of smoke. Considering that Rhys is not that fast to begin with... The fact remains that Mia gets more out of it than Rhys. As for Killing Edges... There are only two in the game, and by the time Mia gets her hands on Wrath, the first one is likely broken, or close to it.

[-Cynthia-]

She's really better off using a forge, since with a KE she might not OHKO, thus somewhat defeating the point. But again, with Wrath she has about an 80% chance to avoid 1 range attacks, which really adds to her durability (80% crit isn't bad for offense either).

[grandjackal]

Puh-leez. Nosferatu? More like Nosfailatu! Could you have made it any more obvious that you're grasping at straws? All that does is make Rhys's AS vanish like a puff of smoke. Considering that Rhys is not that fast to begin with... The fact remains that Mia gets more out of it than Rhys. As for Killing Edges... There are only two in the game, and by the time Mia gets her hands on Wrath, the first one is likely broken, or close to it.

Rhys had AS? News to me. I remember him having kick-ass magic though, and 3 more magic damage means 3 more HP. It lets him not die as often as normal. Also means if he does get attacked, we don't have to heal him, we can just have him take it from someone else. Everyone needs to realize Nosferatu is an awesome spell the moment you stop trying to use a low-use spell like it's a bread and butter weapon.

Guess that would mean she has another with her, unless we just decide that...you know...not to use Zihark every playthrough. Only competition is Ike, and she's generally better with him as she doubles more often than he. Besides, before promotion he's got the regal blade. Post promotion, he doesn't even care what weapon we toss him. Even considering, he doesn't put them to as good of use without both vantage and wrath scrolls. Mia just wants wrath, which I question others putting to as good of use, considering they can't just insta-crit anything that wonders into their field of vision. Only ones that come close is Zihark (who with his Earth affinity and generally all durability supports he will be having a much harder time getting into Wrath mode) and Largo (who comes waaaaayyy too late).

I don't suppose Mak's got a case against Astrid? Mak might join later, but he has a higher starting level, is not stuck with bows, takes less resources, thunder affinity win, and is statistically your best dude on a horse...Statistically anyways.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Vykan12]

I don't suppose Mak's got a case against Astrid? Mak might join later, but he has a higher starting level, is not stuck with bows, takes less resources, thunder affinity win, and is statistically your best dude on a horse...Statistically anyways.

Those 2 characters are extremely close so if you want to make a case, pull out some numbers.

[soundecho]

There's not much advantages for Makalov really, he can counter attack before promotion but *insert Reikken quote about not having an enemy phase* especially when swords are bleh?

Astrid has several advantages, she has substantially higher hit. This matters because Makalov w/ Steel axe before supports or WTA has 100 hit. And Astrid clearly wins when she pulls out a hand axe, because Makalov hit goes from 100 -> to 90 and supports/WTA can't save your all the time.

Then Astrid has special bows which no one wants and then she shines on teams of 12~ or more people where Paragon really makes a difference. On say teams of 10~, Astrid usually reaches 20/20 around chapter 25? while others only really reach it at endgame. On say teams of 12~ she reaches 20/20 at chapter 27~? which is helpful.

[grandjackal]

Ok, lessee...

First off, let's just check on support situations. Well...Fuck. Their lists are fucking weird. Astrid has lolGatrie, Sothe for some damn reason, and Mak. Mak's entire goddamn list is nothing but wind, which is Astrid herself, Haar, and Bastian. Lets just get this out there. Astrid is never gonna be anywhere near Gatrie and Mak gives generally better bonuses *more avoid is better than more accuracy, especially for Astrid). Sothe has a habit for vanishing due to sucking, and only being used for thief purposes. On hte other hand, Mak's got Haar who is better than all of the other clowns on these two support lists. Haar loves more avoid and defense where he can find it, and Mak gives both. Haar also lacks in supports himself, so he greatly appreciates it. Bastian is sort of the Gatrie to Mak's list, but yet another bastard who would love thunder. Another problem with Astrid is that her affinity for Gatrie is not helping him for squat. Avoid isn't gonna help him actually avoid shit, hit is not a problem in this game, and Gatrie would rather have defense where he can find it, or offense. So not only does Mak overall benefit far greater to his supporters, but his supporters are generally more useful in combat. On top of it, Astrid sucks at first due to being piss weak. Any boosts she can get to help her suck less the better, and what more could you ask for than defense and avoid? Mak's support situation is leagues, towers, and mountains higher than Astrid's.

Astrid might not have leveled much prior to Mak's join chapter, but let's give her 5 levels of BEXP. Lessee how she compares to Mak base.

Mak's beating her by 8 HP, 1 Str, 1 Speed, 3 Luck, lol4 Def. She only beats him in 1 skill and 2 resistance. On top of that, Mak's got enemy phase with countering, which nets him more exposure, can take shots just fine (certainly better than Astrid). On top of that, he's level 10 so he only needs 10 levels as opposed to Astrid's 19 to get anywhere. In fact, Mak can be sealed the moment he shows up. Not a great move, but it's an option that he can pull out his ass while Astrid has to wait. So at their start, Mak's leagues ahead of Astrid.

Now Astrid might need 19 levels, but Paragon helps her tremendously along with higher enemy level in comparison. Mak however is garunteed more exposure, meaning more exp from countering. Both are entitled to their kills and BEXP. Overall, I'd say that they'd reach level 20 at the same time. Oddly enough, they both have the same speed growth and at equal levels, she only beats him by 1 speed. I'd highly doubt at that point that either of them are having doubling trouble. Growth-wise, he annihilates her in every growth save skill, luck and resistance. She'll have an abundance on...those. Let's promote them, shall we?

Astrid 20/1

HP: 33.55, Str: 15.6, 18.45 Skill, 17.5 speed, 10.6 Luck, 13.7 Def, 10.75 Res

Mak 20/1

39 HP, 16.5 Str, 13.5 Skill, 17 Speed, 10.5 Luck, 16.5 Def, 7 Res

Offensively, Mak is ecking out a lead, and he's still royally spanking her defensively. On top of that, they both got axes now, so Astrid with bows is not a big deal. Advantage is still in Mak's favor by a greater margin.

Let's fastforward. Lessay Mak's got a B with Haar, because he can get it. That would be about...level 20/10 Mak with a level...Would 20/15 sound appropriate for Astrid?

Astrid 20/15

HP: 39.85, Str: 21.2, Skill: maxed at 26, Speed: 24.5, Luck: 16.2, Def: 17.9, Res: 14.25

Mak: 20/10, B Haar

HP: 44.4, Str: 21.45, Skill: 17.55, Speed: 21.5, Luck: 12.75, Def: 20.55, Res 8.8

Wow, still spanking her in concrete durability, but she closed the offense gap most certainly. She's also got avoid on him naturally by 10, which is canceled out by the B Haar support, which also yields 1 defense to Mak. Mak also has the ability to have better WTC, due to having a secondary weapon in the circle, while bows suck generally on anything not a single flier. However, that is a considerable resistance lead, so when it comes to mages she is considerably safer. With a 3 point AS lead, and considering endgame that enemies actually get a spiky boost, Astrid's AS lead might actually matter here. I'd say it's generally a tie here or that Astrid wins it here.

Might say I sandbagged her supports here, but also consider I could have thrown in Bastian, whoh as better move than Gatrie and thus has an easier time keeping up (though both get left in hte dust by sheer paladin move difference). Also note that Gatrie is only that high for earlygame, as otherwise he's rather garbage. Also on top of that, his light affinity does not help Astrid do much aside from let her win a tiny-ass amount of avoid lategame while not even coming close to closing the durability gap (as she cannot reach Mak's 20/10 averages even at 20/20, 1 defense don't mean shit).

You also have to keep in mind that we have to spoonfeed Astrid a bit, while Mak's already to go upon joining, easily slips into the frontline to expose himself to the enemy, thus doing mroe overall damage than Astrid at their jointime. Both have Canto, surviving is generally not a problem for him.

Overall, I'd say Makbeating her all the way to lategame wins this one.

...I don't think I've gone this in-depth on a character comparison outside the shadow dragon boards, and all that prompted it was Vykan demanding numbers, while otherwise I'm constantly scolded for being a snake oil salseman for not doing so. Why is it I learn now of all times with two characters I don't even like that much.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Shadow Mir]

Rhys had AS? News to me. I remember him having kick-ass magic though, and 3 more magic damage means 3 more HP. It lets him not die as often as normal. Also means if he does get attacked, we don't have to heal him, we can just have him take it from someone else. Everyone needs to realize Nosferatu is an awesome spell the moment you stop trying to use a low-use spell like it's a bread and butter weapon.

Guess that would mean she has another with her, unless we just decide that...you know...not to use Zihark every playthrough. Only competition is Ike, and she's generally better with him as she doubles more often than he. Besides, before promotion he's got the regal blade. Post promotion, he doesn't even care what weapon we toss him. Even considering, he doesn't put them to as good of use without both vantage and wrath scrolls. Mia just wants wrath, which I question others putting to as good of use, considering they can't just insta-crit anything that wonders into their field of vision. Only ones that come close is Zihark (who with his Earth affinity and generally all durability supports he will be having a much harder time getting into Wrath mode) and Largo (who comes waaaaayyy too late).

I don't suppose Mak's got a case against Astrid? Mak might join later, but he has a higher starting level, is not stuck with bows, takes less resources, thunder affinity win, and is statistically your best dude on a horse...Statistically anyways.

What's news to me is the bit about Rhys getting 3 more HP from the Mia support, since Rhys does have fairly low HP to begin with - low ehough, in fact, that he most likely doesn't even need Mia to heal himself back to full. And if Rhys has "kick-ass magic" by your own admission, why should he get Mia, then? And there you go again, going into hype mode.

As for skills, what about Guard? I'm sure Mia could make good use of that with her Vantage, especially since unlike Wrath, no one really cares about Guard (and you have to be attacking first to get any real use out of it anyway), and Mia doesn't have to sacrifice her durability.

As far as Largo's concerned, I agree that we should withhold judgment until enemy stats come in.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Jonathan Aulin

[grandjackal]

What's news to me is the bit about Rhys getting 3 more HP from the Mia support, since Rhys does have fairly low HP to begin with - low ehough, in fact, that he most likely doesn't even need Mia to heal himself back to full. And if Rhys has "kick-ass magic" by your own admission, why should he get Mia, then? And there you go again, going into hype mode.

As for skills, what about Guard? I'm sure Mia could make good use of that with her Vantage, especially since unlike Wrath, no one really cares about Guard (and you have to be attacking first to get any real use out of it anyway), and Mia doesn't have to sacrifice her durability.

As far as Largo's concerned, I agree that we should withhold judgment until enemy stats come in.

Old habits die hard...or not at all.

The better question is why should Rhys bother with anyone? He gets nothing from his supports. Apparently the offense boosting support which helps him do his main source of damage (chip damage) better doesn't help him get leagues better defense, Titania doesn't help his durability be any better, and Keiran helps him do jack shit. He wants to get Mia as he benefits Mia the most, since him getting supports should warrent nothing more than him helping others out. The better question is why SHOULDN'T he support Mia, when he's around her the most, and he benefits her the most?

As for Guard/Cancel...I didn't even think of that, but that's not a bad idea either. Either way, you can see she makes great use of skills in general.

Yes, let us wait for Vykan.

Any thoughts on the Astrid vs Mak deal though?

Edited July 5, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[-Cynthia-]

Supports

Astrid/Gatrie really is not that bad of a combination. Gatrie's rather lacking in support options (Marcia and Ilyana don't really want him, lolShinon), so he's really her best choice for a B, and it gives Astrid some durability that she likes. Yeah, Makalov has Haar, but it's a late support and Haar needs that boost about as much as Gatrie does. Add in lolSothe and lolBastian, and their supports really are pretty equal, since it's pretty bleak beyond each other.

Astrid might not have leveled much prior to Mak's join chapter, but let's give her 5 levels of BEXP. Lessee how she compares to Mak base.

Mak's beating her by 8 HP, 1 Str, 1 Speed, 3 Luck, lol4 Def. She only beats him in 1 skill and 2 resistance. On top of that, Mak's got enemy phase with countering, which nets him more exposure, can take shots just fine (certainly better than Astrid). On top of that, he's level 10 so he only needs 10 levels as opposed to Astrid's 19 to get anywhere. In fact, Mak can be sealed the moment he shows up. Not a great move, but it's an option that he can pull out his ass while Astrid has to wait. So at their start, Mak's leagues ahead of Astrid.

You're really underrating Paragon in addition to Astrid's underleveledness, she gains like a level per kill at first, eventually it decreases to a level every 2 kills, but on her opening chapter her CEXP is insane. Also, giving Astrid the KW is pretty reasonable. She can easily be the same level as base Mak once he's actually recruited, possibly even higher. Let's do a better comparison:

10 Makalov (forged Steel Sword)

30 HP 23 Atk 10 AS 10 Def 2 Res 28 Avo

10 Astrid (forged Steel Bow)

24 HP 25 Atk 14 AS 8 Def 6 Res 36 Avo

Makalov has a durability lead, Astrid has an offensive lead. As for the enemy phase thing, Makalov doesn't have the durability to use it very effectively at this point, plus he has to take counters while Astrid doesn't, which is arguably more important at this part of the game for them. Makalov having an Enemy phase would be more important later, except by the time his durability is up to par Astrid's already promoted, so it no longer matters.

Now Astrid might need 19 levels, but Paragon helps her tremendously along with higher enemy level in comparison. Mak however is garunteed more exposure, meaning more exp from countering. Both are entitled to their kills and BEXP. Overall, I'd say that they'd reach level 20 at the same time. Oddly enough, they both have the same speed growth and at equal levels, she only beats him by 1 speed. I'd highly doubt at that point that either of them are having doubling trouble. Growth-wise, he annihilates her in every growth save skill, luck and resistance. She'll have an abundance on...those. Let's promote them, shall we?

Astrid 20/1

HP: 33.55, Str: 15.6, 18.45 Skill, 17.5 speed, 10.6 Luck, 13.7 Def, 10.75 Res

Mak 20/1

39 HP, 16.5 Str, 13.5 Skill, 17 Speed, 10.5 Luck, 16.5 Def, 7 Res

Offensively, Mak is ecking out a lead, and he's still royally spanking her defensively. On top of that, they both got axes now, so Astrid with bows is not a big deal. Advantage is still in Mak's favor by a greater margin.

For them to promote at the same time, Makalov would have to recieve twice the CEXP Astrid does, or twice the BEXP. That seems rather farfetched.

Might say I sandbagged her supports here, but also consider I could have thrown in Bastian, whoh as better move than Gatrie and thus has an easier time keeping up (though both get left in hte dust by sheer paladin move difference). Also note that Gatrie is only that high for earlygame, as otherwise he's rather garbage. Also on top of that, his light affinity does not help Astrid do much aside from let her win a tiny-ass amount of avoid lategame while not even coming close to closing the durability gap (as she cannot reach Mak's 20/10 averages even at 20/20, 1 defense don't mean shit).

Um, we really aren't fielding Bastian, who has the same Mov as a promoted Gatrie anyway. You seem to have issues with Gatrie for some reason, note that he doubles about the same amount as Bastian does, has access to Braves to help this, is obviously curbstomping Bastian in durability, and his support with Astrid starts much sooner than Makalov/Bastian.

You also have to keep in mind that we have to spoonfeed Astrid a bit, while Mak's already to go upon joining, easily slips into the frontline to expose himself to the enemy, thus doing mroe overall damage than Astrid at their jointime. Both have Canto, surviving is generally not a problem for him.

Makalov is not "good to go" upon jointime, he's losing AS from a Steel Sword for crying out loud. He's lucky not to get doubled, forget about doubling until he gets quite a few levels under his belt.

Overall, I'd say Makbeating her all the way to lategame wins this one.

Perhaps, but I didn't find you terribly convincing.

And I still think you don't have a point Jonathan Aulin, Rhys prefers Mia over nothing, unless you want to try and argue Rolf being fielded.

Edited July 5, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Shadow Mir]

Old habits die hard...or not at all.

The better question is why should Rhys bother with anyone? He gets nothing from his supports. Apparently the offense boosting support which helps him do his main source of damage (chip damage) better doesn't help him get leagues better defense, Titania doesn't help his durability be any better, and Keiran helps him do jack shit. He wants to get Mia as he benefits Mia the most, since him getting supports should warrent nothing more than him helping others out. The better question is why SHOULDN'T he support Mia, when he's around her the most, and he benefits her the most?

As for Guard/Cancel...I didn't even think of that, but that's not a bad idea either. Either way, you can see she makes great use of skills in general.

Yes, let us wait for Vykan.

Any thoughts on the Astrid vs Mak deal though?

My big issue is coming from Mia being meh.

Apparently, nobody else thought of Guard until I mentioned it. That one came to me as one that she had no competition for, since it's useless on Enemy Phase without Vantage unless you're geting doubled. Considering that being countered is a big issue for Mia with her durability...

As for the Astrid/Mak deal...I'd side with Astrid, though supports are rather wonky on both sides. He's a thunder affinity with all Wind partners (Astrid herself being one of them), and she has (aside from Mak) Gatrie and Sothe. Gatrie's out due to the move difference, and Sothe's likely only seeing use on maps where there's treasure. I can't really think of many advantages for Mak; the only one that really stands out is actually being able to counter, but.... there's that Reikken quote to ponder. And being locked to swords pre-promotion is also bad. And as Cynthia said, Mak doesn't have the durability to be effective on enemy phase starting out, and having to take counters doesn't help. Astrid, on the other hand, has more going for her; she has less trouble hitting than Mak does, she gets the special bows all to herself (Other than those lousy Longbows and the Double Bow...But aside from Shadow Dragon, when have Longbows ever been good? The Double Bow is simply lol; it's barely stronger than a Steel Bow.), and I see Paragon as the kicker.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Jonathan Aulin

[Vykan12]

Astrid's level lead seems heavily understated, Pretty Boi. If she's 20/1 in chapter 18, any promoted enemy kill gives her 50+ exp to Mak's 25. Eventually her exp gain will calm down to the point where they're gaining similar exp, but I'd say that encompasses more like a 10 level lead.

20/5 Mak vs a 20/5 enemy: 10 exp per hit, 25 per kill

20/10 Astrid vs a 20/1 enemy: 10 exp per hit, 32 per kill

She's still gaining 7 more exp per kill, which is an extra level every 14 kills. They probably gain ~equal experience when the gap is 7-9 levels.

On a separate note, I have no idea why you didn't assume both characters would support each other. A free 15 avo and 1 def > nothing.

[-Cynthia-]

Astrid's level lead seems heavily understated, Pretty Boi. If she's 20/1 in chapter 18, any promoted enemy kill gives her 50+ exp to Mak's 25. Eventually her exp gain will calm down to the point where they're gaining similar exp, but I'd say that encompasses more like a 10 level lead.

20/5 Mak vs a 20/5 enemy: 10 exp per hit, 25 per kill

20/10 Astrid vs a 20/1 enemy: 10 exp per hit, 32 per kill

She's still gaining 7 more exp per kill, which is an extra level every 14 kills. They probably gain ~equal experience when the gap is 7-9 levels.

On a separate note, I have no idea why you didn't assume both characters would support each other. A free 15 avo and 1 def > nothing.

Here's a question, can a support be assumed between two characters if they're being compared against one another(assuming no clearly better options)? I would say they would, since they're both being fielded, but some people think otherwise. This doesn't really apply to Mak/Astrid, but it might for low tier debates.

[grandjackal]

Astrid/Gatrie really is not that bad of a combination. Gatrie's rather lacking in support options (Marcia and Ilyana don't really want him, lolShinon), so he's really her best choice for a B, and it gives Astrid some durability that she likes. Yeah, Makalov has Haar, but it's a late support and Haar needs that boost about as much as Gatrie does. Add in lolSothe and lolBastian, and their supports really are pretty equal, since it's pretty bleak beyond each other.

At least Illyana is generally around him, and she gets full defense she damn well would love. But either way, the point is a B for Astrid.

Severe move difference is all I have to say, especially since Gatrie is overall just a poor combatant. It also does not benefit him at all, all he gets out of it is a measily 1 defense. 1 Def is doing diddly fuck for her, and so is 6 avoid. Youre better off just not fielding him. At least Haar is capable of holding his own.

You're really underrating Paragon in addition to Astrid's underleveledness, she gains like a level per kill at first, eventually it decreases to a level every 2 kills, but on her opening chapter her CEXP is insane. Also, giving Astrid the KW is pretty reasonable. She can easily be the same level as base Mak once he's actually recruited, possibly even higher. Let's do a better comparison:

10 Makalov (forged Steel Sword)

30 HP 23 Atk 10 AS 10 Def 2 Res 28 Avo

10 Astrid (forged Steel Bow)

24 HP 25 Atk 14 AS 8 Def 6 Res 36 Avo

Yeah, you got her 9 levels in one chapter? At base, she's doing 12 mt with an iron bow.

Using Vykan's stats (Danke, Herr Vykan), lessee how she does.

1x Mage lv 11 (fire)

22 hp, 13 atk, 8 AS, 111 hit, 18 avo, 5 def, 10 res, 3 crit, 2 cev

She's 4RKOing mages, the weakest enemies on the map. BOOOO!! Wait! There are Ravens there, right? SURELY she can take them down with post haste! Her 6 Str base with 6x2 damage=18

1x Raven lv 2 (beak)

28 hp, 16 atk, 13 AS, 112 hit, 26 avo, 10 def, 8 res, 5 crit, 0 cev

4RKO. BOOO!!

It's worse for ohhh, everything else on the map. In fact, even with a strength up, she cannot hurt the boss who 1 rounds her, which Halberdiers and some Myrms can do as well, and recall she's stuck to bows which limits her to 1 attack per turn. Now explain me how the fuck she is getting 9 levels even with paragon where she needs help killing things she's supposed to be good against?

Makalov has a durability lead, Astrid has an offensive lead. As for the enemy phase thing, Makalov doesn't have the durability to use it very effectively at this point, plus he has to take counters while Astrid doesn't, which is arguably more important at this part of the game for them. Makalov having an Enemy phase would be more important later, except by the time his durability is up to par Astrid's already promoted, so it no longer matters.

Considering how she needs 6 levels just to still be inferior to him, I'd doubt she's doing much better, also considering that Mak's able to take 3 shots from the strongest enemy on the map (of which he can easily survive other things as that is borderline at that). He's perfectly fine.

For them to promote at the same time, Makalov would have to recieve twice the CEXP Astrid does, or twice the BEXP. That seems rather farfetched.

Astrid has twice the levels to gain. Sounds fair to me.

Um, we really aren't fielding Bastian, who has the same Mov as a promoted Gatrie anyway. You seem to have issues with Gatrie for some reason, note that he doubles about the same amount as Bastian does, has access to Braves to help this, is obviously curbstomping Bastian in durability, and his support with Astrid starts much sooner than Makalov/Bastian.

Thus why in my comparison, I did not include either of these failboats, but if Bastian is apparently not as durable, that makes Mak's thunder all that more valuable, doesn't it? Speaking of curbstomping durability, Bastian is straight up your most concretely durable mage. He's still by no means stunning, but 10 avoid and 1 def he can certainly put to good use, especially if Lucia or Volke is in play where he gets 25 avoid (Volke) or more (Lucia). Generally as a mage, I'd say he's better than Illyana, and more prepared than Tormod. Either way, 13 Def with 72 avoid at base? Sounds pretty decent to me, and Mak helped make that.

Astrid on the other hand gave Gatrie a bunch of shit he could care less about, along with the fact that Gatrie isn't even that much better (Bastian is perfectly capable of being durable for his job, magic damage in exchange for Gat's strength). Either way, Mak-Bas benefits>As-Gat.

Makalov is not "good to go" upon jointime, he's losing AS from a Steel Sword for crying out loud. He's lucky not to get doubled, forget about doubling until he gets quite a few levels under his belt.

He needs 3 of the strongest enemy on the map to bring him down, while Astrid on the other hand risks getting ORKOd by enemies in her own chapter. She needs 6 levels to meet his AS, if he's having problems? More damage, more durability, more ability to be exposed, he's MUCH better off at his start.

Perhaps, but I didn't find you terribly convincing.

I'm not a good debater, I'm not surprised.

[Vykan12]

Astrid's earlygame suckage doesn't really interfere with her ability to gain wild amounts of experience. She gets something like 35 exp just for hitting something, and about 80-100 for a kill. I at least managed to get her a level in her joining chapter.

Then there's the fact that she uses BEXP very efficiently. 10 levels of BEXP into her is still less than 5 into Mak, so she could easily surpass his level in A New Dawn.

[Zkirsche]

Marcia and Ilyana don't really want him

What? Both of those are quite frail and appreciate the def. Not to mention Ilyana and Gatrie actually match mov. I'd actually consider Ilyana x Gatrie more efficient than Mordy x Ilyana for this reason. As for Zihark x Ilyana, Zihark has options in the form of Brom and Muarim, both provide useful bonuses for him. Much better than lolight.

As for Marcia, she either has to wait until chapter 19 for a Tanith support or pick Gatrie sooner for a quicker durability boost when she actually needs it.

10 Makalov (forged Steel Sword)

30 HP 23 Atk 10 AS 10 Def 2 Res 28 Avo

10 Astrid (forged Steel Bow)

24 HP 25 Atk 14 AS 8 Def 6 Res 36 Avo

Mak's also underlevelled, so he gains quite a bit from a bit of bexp. So instead of base mak, how about something more realistic? Say, a level 13 Mak? Astrid can be level 15, to be fair, and 7 levels with the KW:

Level 13 Makalov (Forged steel sword): 32 HP, 24 Atk, 12 AS, 33 Avo, 11 Def, 3 Res

Level 15 Astrid (Forged steel bow): 26 HP, 26 Atk, 16 AS, 41 Avo, 9 Def, 7.5 Res

Mak has a good durability lead (6 HP + 2 Def > lolres + 8 avo), but Astrid is doubling enemies and Mak has an enemy phrase. And he does indeed have the durability to survive. The soldiers 6RKO him, the strongest mymidons 4RKO him and he's 3RKO'ed by the fighters who are the strongest enemies on the map with the exclusion of the stationary boss. So i'm going to give the win to Mak for having an enemy phrase and better durability.

For them to promote at the same time, Makalov would have to recieve twice the CEXP Astrid does, or twice the BEXP. That seems rather farfetched.

Very well, let me do a more realistic comparison with Astrid getting an overall 15 levels with the KW, and mak getting 6 levels with the KW and 1 with the knight/wyvern band:

20/6 Astrid with a forged steel axe 'B' Mak: 36 HP, 34 Atk, 24.5 AS, 71-73 Avo, 16 Def, 13 Res

20/1 Makalov with a forged steel axe 'B' Astrid: 39 HP, 33 Atk, 19 AS, 58.5 Avo, 18 Def, 8 Res

Offensively, Astrid is winning by 2 damage.... forgive me for not being blown away.

Defensively, it's Mak's 3 HP + 2 Def vs Astrid's 14.5-16.5 avo + 5 Res. Res doesn't matter much so I'd say Mak wins it.

Neither lead is stunning or significant. I'd say they tie.

Later on, giving Mak 4 more levels with the KW:

20/15 Astrid with a forged silver axe, 'A' Mak: 40 HP, 37 Atk, 27 AS, 85 Avo, 19 Def, 15 Res

20/7 Makalov with a forged silver axe, 'A' Astrid, 'C' Haar: 43 HP, 36 Atk, 23 AS, 78 Avo, 20 Def, 9 Res

Offensively, it's the same situation as before.

Defensively, it's 3 HP + 1 def vs 7 avo and 6 Res. Mages are still quite uncommon (And always will be) and 7 avo is practically nothing. I'd give Mak a lead here.

I'd say Mak wins due to giving out better support bonuses.

Notice Astrid's level, that's very close to capping. Once it does, and Mak gets 'B' with Haar, this can only build up more in Mak's favour.

Makalov is not "good to go" upon jointime, he's losing AS from a Steel Sword for crying out loud. He's lucky not to get doubled, forget about doubling until he gets quite a few levels under his belt.

Good thing that's easy to do due to his underlevelledness.

[-Cynthia-]

Severe move difference is all I have to say, especially since Gatrie is overall just a poor combatant. It also does not benefit him at all, all he gets out of it is a measily 1 defense. 1 Def is doing diddly fuck for her, and so is 6 avoid. Youre better off just not fielding him. At least Haar is capable of holding his own.

Gatrie's durable and he hits hard,he really is not that terrible, and again Gatrie's support comes much sooner than Haar's.

Yeah, you got her 9 levels in one chapter? At base, she's doing 12 mt with an iron bow.

We really should be giving her a forged Steel if were using her, not sandbagging her with Iron, but it's rather irrelevant anyway. Let's look as Astrid's Exp gain for hitting enemies, let's say they're level 12 which is about average, she's going to get even more for dinking the Halbs or Ravens.

21 +11 (power) /2 = 16 x 2= 32

She only needs 3 hits to gain a level basically, less if she's attacking Ravens or higher level enemies. If she kills, she's getting up to 50-100 exp. Also, if we give a forged steel bow she has 34 Atk against Ravens and 2HKOs them while they won't target her(looting chests). The 9 levels was assuming the 5 levels of BEXP you gave her, perfectly reasonable considering how little that actually is.

Astrid has twice the levels to gain. Sounds fair to me.

You have to consider how very quickly levels 1 to 10 fly by due to underleveledness and Paragon. You don't seem to be grasping just how much more Exp Astrid gains than Makalov, she needs to be 7-9 levels higher for them to gain equal Exp, just think about how much more she gets when she has a level deficit or they're equal.

Thus why in my comparison, I did not include either of these failboats, but if Bastian is apparently not as durable, that makes Mak's thunder all that more valuable, doesn't it? Speaking of curbstomping durability, Bastian is straight up your most concretely durable mage. He's still by no means stunning, but 10 avoid and 1 def he can certainly put to good use, especially if Lucia or Volke is in play where he gets 25 avoid (Volke) or more (Lucia). Generally as a mage, I'd say he's better than Illyana, and more prepared than Tormod. Either way, 13 Def with 72 avoid at base? Sounds pretty decent to me, and Mak helped make that.

At equal levels Bastian has only 1 more Def than Callil and 1 less HP, but that's not really the point here. The point is that Bastian is the second worst character in the game and the notion of fielding him is pretty absurd. You seem to have an unnatural dislike of Gatrie, let me show you how far apart they are.

20/9 Gatrie (forged JavelinSilver Lance)

49 HP 36/45 Atk 12 AS 26 Def 9 Res 34 Avo

13 Bastian (forged thunder)

35 HP 28 Atk 16 AS 12 Def 20 Res 47 Avo

Durability wise, 14 HP and 14 Def are pretty crushing leads. Gatrie also does more damage with the Javelin than Bastian does with magic on anything with a Res gap of 8 or less, which is almost everything, obviously winning with a Silver Lance. Bastian does have an AS lead but there are few things he doubles that Gatrie can't, and Gatrie can fix his AS with the KW or Braves. Equating Gatrie and Bastian is just wrong.

He needs 3 of the strongest enemy on the map to bring him down, while Astrid on the other hand risks getting ORKOd by enemies in her own chapter. She needs 6 levels to meet his AS, if he's having problems? More damage, more durability, more ability to be exposed, he's MUCH better off at his start.

Only if we sandbag Astrid by not giving her levels or resources.

@kirsche Marcia/Gatrie is really meh, big Mov difference and 15 Avo helps Marcia much more than 1 Def.

Overall, I think Astrid's winning right before promotion, when she's promoted and Mak isn't, and when she has a level lead afterwards, which takes up the majority of their respective chapters.

Edited July 5, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

@kirsche Marcia/Gatrie is really meh, big Mov difference and 15 Avo helps Marcia much more than 1 Def

Astrid/Gatrie has the same mov differance except Marcai can fly to help stay in Gatrie's support bonus range.

It's only 7 avo, actually. Marcia has fire affinity. Besides, avo is not where Marcia's problem lies, it's her concrete durability that's the problem. 20 HP/8 Def is fail when you combine it with 55% HP/25% Def growths. However, 26 base avo isn't so bad combined with a 150% growth.

[-Cynthia-]

Astrid/Gatrie has the same mov differance except Marcai can fly to help stay in Gatrie's support bonus range.

It's only 7 avo, actually. Marcia has fire affinity. Besides, avo is not where Marcia's problem lies, it's her concrete durability that's the problem. 20 HP/8 Def is fail when you combine it with 55% HP/25% Def growths. However, 26 base avo isn't so bad combined with a 150% growth.

The more Avo you have the more you get out of additional Avo due to the 2 RNG system(think Mia getting an Earth in RD), plus this support is pretty necessary for Tanith's durability as well. The only reason Astrid/Gatrie has viability is because they lack other options.

A Tanith gives Marcia 15 Avo 5+5+5.

Edited July 5, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

Marcia x Kieran gives her 7 avo, though.

Besides, Tanith can get Oscar and Reyson if she's struggling durably. She gets the same bonuses from reyson as she does Marcia and Oscar gives her much more avo.

Not that it actually matters, as Mak gives out better bonuses anyway due to thunder affinity.

Overall, I think Astrid's winning right before promotion, when she's promoted and Mak isn't, and when she has a level lead afterwards, which takes up the majority of their respective chapters.

Please refer to my multiple comparisons.

[grandjackal]

Astrid's earlygame suckage doesn't really interfere with her ability to gain wild amounts of experience. She gets something like 35 exp just for hitting something, and about 80-100 for a kill. I at least managed to get her a level in her joining chapter.

Then there's the fact that she uses BEXP very efficiently. 10 levels of BEXP into her is still less than 5 into Mak, so she could easily surpass his level in A New Dawn.

Does this stop the fact she needs to suck up resources and be walled off just to be within general reach just at his base?

Gatrie's durable and he hits hard,he really is not that terrible, and again Gatrie's support comes much sooner than Haar's.

Well if he's already durable, I guess he doesn't give a shit about 1 def. I'm also pretty sure he doesn't give a fuck about 6 avoid either. He'd rather have an uber-defense boost form Shinon or Illin, or help Marcia out. You seem to think Astrid wouldn't mind supporting his low move ass, why wouldn't Marcia?

We really should be giving her a forged Steel if were using her, not sandbagging her with Iron, but it's rather irrelevant anyway. Let's look as Astrid's Exp gain for hitting enemies, let's say they're level 12 which is about average, she's going to get even more for dinking the Halbs or Ravens.

21 +11 (power) /2 = 16 x 2= 32

So we wasted a chapter forge for a character who is not yet on our team? Fine, I'll shed a couple weight off a steel sword, now he has no problem with speed loss, and can in fact double some things, all just from showing up.

She only needs 3 hits to gain a level basically, less if she's attacking Ravens or higher level enemies. If she kills, she's getting up to 50-100 exp. Also, if we give a forged steel bow she has 34 Atk against Ravens and 2HKOs them while they won't target her(looting chests). The 9 levels was assuming the 5 levels of BEXP you gave her, perfectly reasonable considering how little that actually is.

So she needs Cexp and BEXP just to reach Mak at base?

You have to consider how very quickly levels 1 to 10 fly by due to underleveledness and Paragon. You don't seem to be grasping just how much more Exp Astrid gains than Makalov, she needs to be 7-9 levels higher for them to gain equal Exp, just think about how much more she gets when she has a level deficit or they're equal.

You forget that Mak can do more than just attack on player phase. He can attack, counter, which means more enemy exposure, which means more exp. With his durability, he can easily take 3 people, unless by some chance the three strongest people on the map are all gathered around him (all axers mind you), he can get 30 exp right there. This also means we damaged 3 units as opposed to Astrid's 1, which helps us get through the chapter faster.

At equal levels Bastian has only 1 more Def than Callil and 1 less HP, but that's not really the point here. The point is that Bastian is the second worst character in the game and the notion of fielding him is pretty absurd. You seem to have an unnatural dislike of Gatrie, let me show you how far apart they are.

20/9 Gatrie (forged JavelinSilver Lance)

49 HP 36/45 Atk 12 AS 26 Def 9 Res 34 Avo

13 Bastian (forged thunder)

35 HP 28 Atk 16 AS 12 Def 20 Res 47 Avo

Durability wise, 14 HP and 14 Def are pretty crushing leads. Gatrie also does more damage with the Javelin than Bastian does with magic on anything with a Res gap of 8 or less, which is almost everything, obviously winning with a Silver Lance. Bastian does have an AS lead but there are few things he doubles that Gatrie can't, and Gatrie can fix his AS with the KW or Braves. Equating Gatrie and Bastian is just wrong.

Another thing I'd think we'd have to put on hold till Vykan's stats come through. But some things you have to keep in mind is def/res gaps, the fact he has weapon effect on furries, featheries and scalies, sniper magic, the fact Bastian is at least a nice filler support while Gatrie's options all have much better choices/leave him in the dust anyways. I say we should wait for Vykan's stats, as I wanna see if Bastian really is that easy to kill.

Only if we sandbag Astrid by not giving her levels or resources.

Because Makalov is also an archer with a peashooter apparently...

@kirsche Marcia/Gatrie is really meh, big Mov difference and 15 Avo helps Marcia much more than 1 Def.

I know someone who can relate...