FE9 Tier List

[Zkirsche]

Any thoughts on Reyson < Ike?

Remember that we can trade it away for Astrid's axe on the enemy phase. It's not a huge advantage, but not particularly worse than swords.

With units as close as these, every little helps.

Edited July 7, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

Any thoughts on Reyson < Ike?

Were there arguments for Ike>Reyson? I thought you were trying to move Reyson up, not down.

[dondon151]

Bows give Astrid a safe and reliable player phase whereas swords give Makalov almost nothing.

[Zkirsche]

Were there arguments for Ike>Reyson? I thought you were trying to move Reyson up, not down.

Tino convinced me that Reyson should move down.

Bows give Astrid a safe and reliable player phase whereas swords give Makalov almost nothing.

Except better control of the weapon triangle and an enemy phase which isn't terribad.

[dondon151]

Except better control of the weapon triangle

You're implying that 1 MT and 10 hit outweighs having many different ways to do lots of damage from a safe range? Especially at a point in the game where 1 MT and 10 hit are only marginally useful because both units should be awesome?

and an enemy phase which isn't terribad.

Astrid still has an enemy phase...

[Zkirsche]

You're implying that 1 MT and 10 hit outweighs having many different ways to do lots of damage from a safe range? Especially at a point in the game where 1 MT and 10 hit are only marginally useful because both units should be awesome?

If both units are awesome, then it's still and advantage for Makalov. I'm not saying that being better against axe and sword users is massive, but it's definitely existant.

Astrid still has an enemy phase...

Only if you trade/use reyson, after using swords, mak has to do neither of these.

[Colonel M]

When it comes to Bows vs. Swords, both always lose because they have their disadvantages. Mak doesn't always counter on the Enemy Phase (remember: 1-2 range exists) and Astrid is pretty blatantly obvious. While I'd take Bows > Swords anyday (this doesn't mean I hate Sword-users in general), they both lose in comparisons.

I'd still give more weight to Astrid due to Paragon + BEXP being a fairly simple task to accomplish, but this is just my opinion.

[Vykan12]

Why is Zihark still > Neph? I thought this was successfully challenged on two occasions already, but I might as well do it again.

There’s no doubt Neph has a slightly rougher start than Zihark does (lol E rank in lances), but that shouldn't last more than a couple chapters.

Neph lv 15/0 (forged steel): 26 hp, 26 atk, 15-18 AS, 12-14 def, 5-7 res, 38-44 avo

Zihark lv 17/0 (forged steel): 29 hp, 26 atk, 19 AS, 9 def, 1 res, 47 avo

Both units double basically everything. Neph will fall short on the very fastest myrm as well as a sniper in 16, but then she might have a higher level by then, so that might not even hold true. Both tie in atk but Neph has WTA more often and can pull out javelins against stuff like mages to pull ahead offensively. On the durability end of things, Neph has a sizeable def advantage (3-5), which is arguably better than all of Zihark’s other leads combined (3 hp/3-9 avo).

As proof, look at this chapter 13 enemy:

1x Archer lv 12 (steel bow)

25 hp, 16 atk, 7 AS, 97 hit, 17 avo, 9 def, 4 res, 6 crit, 3 cev

Neph takes 2-4 damage (7-13HKOed) while Zihark takes 7 (5HKOed). Similarly, most enemies in this level range from 15-19 atk, so Neph is easily absorbing more hits.

This lead only grows over time. Let’s fast forward to when both have full supports.

Neph lv 20/5 (A Brom, B Calill, silver lance): 35 hp, 34 atk, 22-26 AS, 18-20 def, 10-12 res, 71-79 avo

Zihark lv 20/5 (A Muarim, B Brom, silver sword): 37 hp, 31 atk, 24 AS, 14 def, 6 res, 92 avo

Neph’s atk gap has grown to the point where she’s doing 6 more damage per double. She can borderline one round some chapter 23 wyverns, so the disparity definitely matters. She also has better hand weapon options at her disposal. With a forged jav for instance, she has 30 atk, enough to ORKO chapter 23 cavaliers. I guess Zihark has a crit lead of ~15, but that only makes a difference for things neither one round at 1 range, which is pretty insignificant.

Defensively both units are basically overkill now. Neph has so much def that even tigers only manage a 4HKO, whereas Zihark’s avo is basically Ike/Oscar level overkill. However, Neph’s clearly more durable when neither of their supporters are in range because her concrete durability doesn’t disappear (only –1 def) whereas 32 avo vanishes for Zihark.

I haven’t even mentioned wrath >>> adept, particularly when the former is paired with vantage. By lategame, Neph clearly has enough durability to maintain <50% hp for sustained periods of time since the average enemy is doing 2-5 damage to her (myrmidons even tink her). Once factoring in her ~60% chance of instantly killing the enemy as well as her avo (60 faces like 30 real in the majority of situations), she’s obviously having no trouble applying this combo. In fact, she is sometimes too durable to even get wrath to activate in a chapter without some effort, but it’s still an advantage regardless.

[grandjackal]

Then factor in 1-2 range...

..Yeah, I can get behind that. I do agree.

[Vykan12]

Also, I wanted to draw some attention to Stefan’s luck problem. He starts off at 5, and only gets to 8 at max level. Even with 2 ashera icons it’s only at most 12 he’ll have.

This is bad because he has to make a concerted effort to stay away from snipers, swordmasters, thunder mages and bosses, among other things. Sure, most other characters might face crit rates from these enemies too but a) it’s substantially smaller and B) they probably have much higher def or avo to make up for it.

Here’s an example. Let’s say Stefan is 20/10 going into chapter 21. That gives him 39 hp/13 def/10 res/57 avo/6-10 luck.

3x Mage lv 18-20 (elthunder)

26 hp, 22 atk, 11 AS, 102 hit, 25 avo, 8 def, 16 res, 16 crit, 3 cev

1x Swordmaster lv 4 (steel sword, vulnerary)

32 hp, 21 atk, 18 AS, 111 hit, 40 avo, 9 def, 6 res, 23 crit, 4 cev

1x Sniper lv 5 (steel bow)

31 hp, 22 atk, 14 AS, 111 hit, 33 avo, 12 def, 9 res, 24 crit, 5 cev

Ena lv 10 (breath, demi-band, elixir)

52 hp, 35 atk, 18 AS, 144 hit, 50 avo, 25 def, 25 res, 10 crit, 14 cev

In terms of raw damage output, he’s taking 92/61/69/100 % damage from a crit, respectively. In many cases, that’s enough for another enemy to finish Stefan off. For instance, a 26 atk steel lance!knight does 33% damage to him, so a sniper crit + that would finish Stefan off.

Now let’s look at hit rates. He faces 45/54/54/87 display hit respectively (41/58/58/96 real), which is substantial. If we take the SM who has 13 crit/58 hit on him along with some finishing attack that has 40 hit, his odds of dying are 3%. That’s 3% from just 2 enemies, which is worse than all the hate someone like FE10 Zihark gets in 3-6.

For that matter, Stefan’s avo isn’t that reliable to begin with. Even at max level, he only has 68-72 avo. A chp 26 tiger is pulling 54-58 display hit on that (58-65 real), then halberdiers, wyverns, generals, etc can pull a ~50/50 chance of hitting him. A bolganoe!sage has 41-45 display, and the list goes on. This would be fine if Stefan were some tanky unit like Brom or Jill, but he isn’t. Most of the enemies I mentioned can pull a 3-5HKO on him.

I dunno, maybe Stefan should move down a bit. His joining time offence is certainly awesome and doesn’t ever really let up, but he has a number of other problems (low move, poor durability, no 1-2) that work to offset that. I guess I can see Mordy > him after all.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Vykan12

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Moving Neph above Zihark and Stefan below Mordecai until some1 makes a good argument.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

I happen to agree.

Lethe's been helpful for longer, helps other people (and has better support options, without much move issue either), is more durable due to luck and avoid with generally the same if not better overall durability...*grins* Stop me if I'm getting ahead of myself.

[-Cynthia-]

I happen to agree.

Lethe's been helpful for longer, helps other people (and has better support options, without much move issue either), is more durable due to luck and avoid with generally the same if not better overall durability...*grins* Stop me if I'm getting ahead of myself.

Are you suggesting moving Stefan below Lethe?

[grandjackal]

Are you suggesting moving Stefan below Lethe?

Me? Noooo...

...Did you know at base, both have the same durability except Lethe has more luck? Stefan also only has 1 more Str. Lethe's got more time to grow, and more levels to gain than he does, and has generally better growths (especially in durability. 15% more speed, 25% more luck, 5% more Def, 50% more HP. What does Stefan have to compare with? 5% more resistance. Lulz.

Stefan starts heads and tails ahead of Lethe with skill and speed, but Lethe doubles everything regardless, and the sheer luck difference makes up for the avoid his speed offers. His only true win is skill. BUT WAIT! Lethe's got luck and holy affinity! Stefan on hte other hand has 2 slow ass supports, one with someone who could easily be stocked up by now, and laguz weapons have lol accuracy. At best he wins crit.

...;;>> Did I mention you get Lethe 5 chapters earlier?

[Zkirsche]

I was about to bring up Lethe > Stefan.

Better mobility, not getting critkilled etcetera. Yeah, I agree that Lethe > Stefan.

Soren's next

Any thoughts on Reyson < Ike?

Edited July 8, 2009 by kirsche

[Mekkah]

I wouldn't mind Lethe > Stefan if it weren't for the fact that Demi Band/gauge issue wasn't brought up at all, or Stefan's massive atk lead: a 7 str gap with both at base, and Steel Sword ties Lethe's claw, but then forges, Vague Katti monopoly, blades, silver, etc, not to mention Astra.

Please stop making the tier list thread a sport of "can i get this character above that one", and actually bring up everything that matters.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Any thoughts on Reyson < Ike?

Elaborate. Tino mentioned putting him below Boyd, didn't say anything about Ike.

Is there anything else I'm missing?

[Tino]

Exactly. I said I wouldn't surprised if Boyd would rise to Top again, above Reyson. Not that Reyson should drop to High Tier below Ike.

[Hexmaster44]

I wouldn't mind Lethe > Stefan if it weren't for the fact that Demi Band/gauge issue wasn't brought up at all, or Stefan's massive atk lead: a 7 str gap with both at base, and Steel Sword ties Lethe's claw, but then forges, Vague Katti monopoly, blades, silver, etc, not to mention Astra.

So, basically, Lethe wins in pretty soundly in durability and has 5 more chapters of availability, while Stefan wins massively in attack. Lethe also has better supports.

[Zkirsche]

I wouldn't mind Lethe > Stefan if it weren't for the fact that Demi Band/gauge issue wasn't brought up at all, or Stefan's massive atk lead: a 7 str gap with both at base, and Steel Sword ties Lethe's claw, but then forges, Vague Katti monopoly, blades, silver, etc, not to mention Astra.

Astra is fail.

You seem to be under the impression that I didn't count for all those things. When I do, it is just that I believe that Lethe's advantages outweigh Stefan's advantages. Unless you disagree that better availability, better supports, better durability, better mobility and less costing > Better offence and no gauge. Might I add that it isn't massive, A level 5 Lethe ties with him in Atk transformed, and is a lower level so levels up faster. Stefan's offence is limited to the higher MT contained within swords. And that isn't crushing Lethe.

Elaborate. Tino mentioned putting him below Boyd, didn't say anything about Ike.

Just because Tino said something else doesn't mean I'm restricted to what he believes.

I mean, with what Tino said, is there any honest reason he's in top. Let alone above Ike?

Ike has better supports and availability, not to mention he never uses a unit slot and is a very competent fighter.

Edited July 8, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

I mean, with what Tino said, is there any honest reason he's in top. Let alone above Ike?

Ike has better supports and availability, not to mention he never uses a unit slot and is a very competent fighter.

Another turn of your best fighter is pretty good, another turn of your 4 best fighters is more useful than what anyone else does at this point. I would go as far to say Reyson is your best character from Ch18 until Endgame

[Colonel M]

I'm not against Reyson, but negating the fact that he's only around for one-half of the game, the problem is the invigorating four units. Due to the lack of Laguz Stones it's somewhat difficult to kick him into transforming. Granted, it doesn't take him forever to vigor four units and he's still vigoring one until then, but being below Ike is something that I question myself when he's nearly a killface of a unit lategame and he wasn't terrible before Reyson's chapters.

[Zkirsche]

Another turn of your best fighter is pretty good, another turn of your 4 best fighters is more useful than what anyone else does at this point. I would go as far to say Reyson is your best character from Ch18 until Endgame

I think Tino did a good job showing why Reyson's refresh ability just isn't that useful:

Laguz Stones exist before Reyson joins and before the Demi Band appears. Lethe and Mordecai definitely wouldn't mind being transformed longer during a battle, especially Mordecai, who has a low starting gauge. Not only that, but having a transformed Mordecai/Lethe for longer during a chapter also means having an easier time beating the chapter.

What I'm saying is that laguz stones are an extremely limited resource. There are a grand total of two laguz stones in the game, meaning four laguz stone uses. It's not unlikely that only two will remain for Reyson, and sadly, he can't use the Demi Band. This leaves him untransformed for quite a while, meaning he refreshes one unit most of the time. And the chance that he refreshes three or even four is very low and happens on a very rare occassion, honestly.

But let's assume your average of two units per chapter. Now, are those units actually necessary? What can they do? Can they attack something else? Can they rescue someone? Can they help us beat the chapter in the turn they were refreshed? Those are all factors that play a major role in determining whether the refreshment was actually useful or not, and you completely ignored all of them. If all it does is allow them to move forward after having attacked (or even more worthless, move forward after having moved forward and do nothing else), the refreshment was practically useless except that we may now beat the chapter in one turn less. That one turn doesn't matter, though, since we are unlikely to not gain max BEXP even if we would've taken that turn.

So Reyson's refreshments can be completely useless. Then you neglected another aspect of Reyson: his durability. It's pretty major monkey balls. Any bow user can either OHKO or 2HKO him, which is bad. Not to mention there are ballistae in quite a few chapters. Ch19 immediately comes to mind, which is the second chapter Reyson's available in. And of course they're featured in quite a lot more chapters, such as The Great Bridge and Strange Lands. But bow users and ballistae aren't the only threats for him. 22 HP/2 Def is horrible. Transformed, all he obtains is a measly 1 Def. This means 25 atk is enough to OHKO him. In other words, every single thing on whatever map, with the exception of magic users and perhaps a handful of physical enemies, OHKOes or 2HKOes Reyson. 33 HP/4 Def (5 Def transformed) doesn't quite help this, as it means he's still 2HKOed by everything.

So there's also something that hinders his utility.

[...]not being able to refresh someone every turn due to three things: his horrible durability, some refreshments being worthless, and something I didn't mention yet, his horrible movement when untransformed.

[Dat Nick]

oh ya. And I think Mekkah forgot to take into account Lethe's transformation bonuses: She gets 6 str on promotion, meaning she loses str to Stefan by 1, not 7.

Another turn of your best fighter is pretty good, another turn of your 4 best fighters is more useful than what anyone else does at this point. I would go as far to say Reyson is your best character from Ch18 until Endgame

You opposed Kieran>Reyson, so how the hell can you support Reyson>Ike?

Edited July 8, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[grandjackal]

Mekkah forgot to add transformation bonus. In reality, she only has 1 strength less than Stefan at base. Considering she's leveling faster with the same growth AND has more levels to grow? Stefan is not crushing her offensively, but merely putting up a small lead. On top of it, Lethe absolutely crushes him durably. 5% more defense with a higher base, 50% more HP, which is 120% (of which the averages do not show, as it treats her HP as if it were 100%, so her averages should have an extra point of HP every 5 levels), and with a shitload more luck in comparison to him. With supports, the fact her speed doesn't suck and her luck is actually some of the best in the game, she'll easily have a major avoid lead on him. Move difference, supports that have no major move differences (Soren has 1 less move, Mordy has 2 more), supports with characters that happen to rock (certainly better than Stef's supports, and Lethe's at least their best secondary option, while Mordy's got options up the ass). On top of it, Lethe's transform issues are the minor problem of hers, as she starts the battle transformed. She doesn't need the demi-band as much as lets say Mordy or Muarim.

At best, Stefan has a small offense advantage (due to being able to use a different weapon). Problem is he comes with Astra. Astra uses 5 weapon uses to do 2.5 damage. This does nothing more than break your weapon faster, he shouldn't even be allowed to use the Vague Kattie because of this. He'd break it faster than anyone else. Astra is royal blow. The fact he comes pre-packaged with a detriment, he should be ashamed.

For reference, Lethe has 2 less HP at base in comparison to Stefan, but 2 more Def. 1 less strength, a bit more accuracy (laguz weaponry and holy affinity C support with Jill makes up for the natural hit gap), while Stefan has 7 more avoid (would be 10, but C with Jill), and 1 more resistance. She supports Jill and Muarim, which even a BB is 2 defense, 12 avoid and 20 hit. Stefan at best gets 2+ATK, 1+Def, 9 avoid and 25 hit. Then you have to consider that Stefan is Mordy's worst option, and is likely to be filled up. At best, Stefan's getting an A with Soren (which is slow as shit may I remind you), which equates to 1 ATK, 9 avoid and 15 hit. Needless to say, Lethe's not dying, especially when you consider the sheer durability growth advantages Lethe has over him. Keep in mind, you also get Lethe 5 chapters before him, so she won't be at base, due to BEXP fairness and the crow pirates. Then Stefan shows up and is STILL leveling slower and STILL has less levels to grow. He's already losing majorly in durability, and it's just gonna get worse for him as time goes on.

If all Stefan can boast is having a slow A with Soren, and a minor offense advantage while losing in every other possible way? How does Stefan compare?