FE9 Tier List

[grandjackal]

Why on earth should Taur get it? Oscar/Ike/Kieran/Makalov are just as durable yet see more enemy phase action due to higher mov.

Don't forget they can actually kill stuff.

[Zkirsche]

What's keeping Mist in high again? I forget.

I mean, a tier above Muarim? How? Healing utility is good and all, but Muarim crushes her offensively and is pretty comparable support wise (Mist wins, but not by staggering amounts). Not to mentioned defence. Gauge =/= tier difference.

[Florete]

What's keeping Mist in high again? I forget.

Were you not apart of the 6 page argument way back in this topic for moving Mist down? It was shot down. About Muarim, I don't know, I'll let someone else take that.

[-Cynthia-]

What's keeping Mist in high again? I forget.

I mean, a tier above Muarim? How? Healing utility is good and all, but Muarim crushes her offensively and is pretty comparable support wise (Mist wins, but not by staggering amounts). Not to mentioned defence. Gauge =/= tier difference.

I agree, Mist should probably be somewhere in Upper Mid. She never becomes very good defensively (adequate, not good) and her offense is generally subpar. Pre-promotion Mist is not very good, basically a Rhys that doesn't fully heal and has less staff levels.

A Resloved Taur is better than Largo, because he's still more durable.

Edited July 9, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Colonel M]

It was not shot down. It was never countered. Sirius had a good post which summed it up nicely.

Then we have other issues: in order to be good she either has to take a resource (Crown) or tediously wait when healing is barely useful. Not to mention she desperately needs forges in order to keep her Atk stat higher than Volke (which is pretty sad).

This post in particular never got countered. When I was countered with Volke > Mist, stupid arguments arose such as the mass favoritism needed to keep her above him. Supports I'll simply concede on.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M

[Zkirsche]

Were you not apart of the 6 page argument way back in this topic for moving Mist down? It was shot down.

Then why not move Muarim up, then? I'm bringing this up again because I think it needs to be reasked.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Put her below Volke. I left her there to see if anything else about Mist would rise but guess not.

[Florete]

It was not shot down. It was never countered. Sirius had a good post which summed it up nicely.

Then we have other issues: in order to be good she either has to take a resource (Crown) or tediously wait when healing is barely useful. Not to mention she desperately needs forges in order to keep her Atk stat higher than Volke (which is pretty sad).

I can't be arsed to find it now, but I recall it being shot down pretty nicely. It was most definitely countered.

Whatever happened to BEXP? And it's not like everyone wants a Seal anyway, though I would never assume that anyway. I hardly find a forge a big negative anyway. Yeah, it's problematic that you can only make one per chapter, but by the time Mist can use one, the rest of your team should be properly outfitted with forged weapons anyway.

EDIT

Put her below Volke. I left her there to see if anything else about Mist would rise but guess not.

The hell? On what basis?

Edited July 9, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Colonel M]

I can't be arsed to find it now, but I recall it being shot down pretty nicely. It was most definitely countered.

If it was by Xort, then no I believe it wasn't.

Whatever happened to BEXP?

Favoritism #1. While she's not using an assload of it, she can catch up in levels, yes. However, this BEXP still could've went to other units to finish levels off and control their stat-ups a bit more. There's a decent amount of BEXP, but this does not mean Mist is going to be taking a whole lot from it.

And it's not like everyone wants a Seal anyway, though I would never assume that anyway.

We have Soren and Ilyana, even Rhys who could use the Seal early on. The former two gain staves, the latter gains "okay but it's not getting too far" chip damage. On top of that, one can use the Seal on units who've approached Level 20 and save the extra level.

I hardly find a forge a big negative anyway. Yeah, it's problematic that you can only make one per chapter, but by the time Mist can use one, the rest of your team should be properly outfitted with forged weapons anyway.

I, on the other hand, find forges in this game being a negative. While I'm not going to bash it into hell, that forge could've went to a better unit in general, not just Mist. On top of that, we also have other constraints. First off, the lack of chapters (IIRC) to make ranged weapons make it a pretty high priority. There's also the issue with 10/1 Mist needing a pretty hefty forge (-Wt on top of +Mt) in order to keep her offense upon the word "stable". I'll also point out that many units can use forges when promoted. Someone like Makalov or Astrid would want forged Steel Axes ASAP on top of other arguments that could be made.

[Florete]

If it was by Xort, then no I believe it wasn't.

I'm looking, but this topic is too big.

Favoritism #1. While she's not using an assload of it, she can catch up in levels, yes. However, this BEXP still could've went to other units to finish levels off and control their stat-ups a bit more. There's a decent amount of BEXP, but this does not mean Mist is going to be taking a whole lot from it.

Huh? Since when is taking her fair share a negative in any way possible? "Could've gone to other units?" Well then, I guess no one should ever be assumed to get BEXP, since 'someone else could've gotten it.' No one ever said Mist is getting a ton. If anything, she's probably more entitled to it than most because it doesn't affect her speed of growth on the battlefield (staves give set amount of exp)

We have Soren and Ilyana, even Rhys who could use the Seal early on. The former two gain staves, the latter gains "okay but it's not getting too far" chip damage. On top of that, one can use the Seal on units who've approached Level 20 and save the extra level.

Since when are Soren, Ilyana, and Rhys "everyone?" There are others that want them, yes, but it's only a small amount.

I, on the other hand, find forges in this game being a negative. While I'm not going to bash it into hell, that forge could've went to a better unit in general, not just Mist. On top of that, we also have other constraints. First off, the lack of chapters (IIRC) to make ranged weapons make it a pretty high priority. There's also the issue with 10/1 Mist needing a pretty hefty forge (-Wt on top of +Mt) in order to keep her offense upon the word "stable". I'll also point out that many units can use forges when promoted. Someone like Makalov or Astrid would want forged Steel Axes ASAP on top of other arguments that could be made.

Did you miss the part where almost everyone else, or possibly everyone, should already have a forge by the time Mist wants one? This is because our units only use their forges when a normal weapon won't kill or you're hurting efficiency. And since when do we automatically assume 10/1 Mist?

Did I mention Mist's supports are just about the best in the game?

[grandjackal]

A Resloved Taur is better than Largo, because he's still more durable.

He's STILL slower under resolve, and Largo is able to get more than 21 AS without a speed wing, AND Largo doesn't waste a bunch of enemy phases to get his ass kicked just so he won't suck, and Largo STILL has better move.

As for my two bits on Mist, did you know at promotion, Mist is the only support Titania has that can actually keep up with her (on promotion), and would love Water boosts to once again turn on god mode? 3 Def on her is hilariously lol, along with an extra bit of attack. B with Boyd or Rhys, she gets full attack benefit, something I recall being a problem of hers later on.

Titania is just way too awesome. Supporting her alone and giving awesome bonuses she would love AND can eventually keep up with her? Fuck yeah! Don't forget Mordy, for water on water action.

Plan to divert attention from Jill for more Lethe

Edited July 9, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Dr. Tarrasque]

My argument against Mist was never countered, on the contrary, most people agreed that she should drop to upper mid, just where exactly was never made clear.

[-Cynthia-]

Huh? Since when is taking her fair share a negative in any way possible? "Could've gone to other units?" Well then, I guess no one should ever be assumed to get BEXP, since 'someone else could've gotten it.' No one ever said Mist is getting a ton. If anything, she's probably more entitled to it than most because it doesn't affect her speed of growth on the battlefield (staves give set amount of exp)

Mist is certainly entitled to some BEXP, but keep in mind how severely underleveled she is. Level 1 in Ch9 means she has a lot of BEXP to go before she can catch up. And unlike combat units, she can't receive the benefits of more CEXP gain due to being underleveled.

Since when are Soren, Ilyana, and Rhys "everyone?" There are others that want them, yes, but it's only a small amount.

There is an opportunity cost involved, but I agree that Sealing Mist is the best for everyone.

Did you miss the part where almost everyone else, or possibly everyone, should already have a forge by the time Mist wants one? This is because our units only use their forges when a normal weapon won't kill or you're hurting efficiency. And since when do we automatically assume 10/1 Mist?

Being forge dependent< Not being forge dependent. Mist of course can be Sealed later, but that's more time she spends jsut being an inferior Rhys, or substantially more BEXP involved. Hence we like to Seal Mist as soon as possible.

Did I mention Mist's supports are just about the best in the game?

This is true. Mist is a hard character to tier compared to both Volke and Muarim, they're all so different we can't just do stat comparisons.

Mist/Titania is actually one of her worst supports, because Titania's good enough without the boosts. But then again, that's saying something.

Edited July 9, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

My argument against Mist was never countered, on the contrary, most people agreed that she should drop to upper mid, just where exactly was never made clear.

Point me to it. I swear to God I remember seeing a lot of arguments for keeping her in High.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Point me to it. I swear to God I remember seeing a lot of arguments for keeping her in High.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?...st&p=473111

[Colonel M]

Huh? Since when is taking her fair share a negative in any way possible? "Could've gone to other units?" Well then, I guess no one should ever be assumed to get BEXP, since 'someone else could've gotten it.' No one ever said Mist is getting a ton. If anything, she's probably more entitled to it than most because it doesn't affect her speed of growth on the battlefield (staves give set amount of exp)

Define how much she's going to take then in order to catch up. Having set amount of EXP is alright, but Mend is giving 11 EXP, which means it takes roughly 9-10 Player Phases in order to get 1 level up. I'm not denying she can take some, but it's just something to bear in mind.

Since when are Soren, Ilyana, and Rhys "everyone?" There are others that want them, yes, but it's only a small amount.

Those were merely examples. Perhaps "everyone" is a miswording on my part, but that doesn't mean one can't use the Crown for benefit.

Did you miss the part where almost everyone else, or possibly everyone, should already have a forge by the time Mist wants one? This is because our units only use their forges when a normal weapon won't kill or you're hurting efficiency.

I'm hurting efficiency enough as is by forcing forges down just to make Mist useful.

Assuming 10/1 Mist, this cuts into it a whole lot. I don't know the exact figures on forges on HM, so I'll have to bite this one a bit and look it up.

And since when do we automatically assume 10/1 Mist?

1) Crown. 2) Healing isn't necessary except the Black Knight fight perhaps. Notice how most units after C17 are usually upon "killface and rarely dying" mode.

Did I mention Mist's supports are just about the best in the game?

Did I mention I conceded supports?

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

Her supports alone make her pretty godly. Best bet is lets say A Mordy, B Titania. 4 ATK, 5 Def, bit of acc. she gives them both 3 Def, Mordy gets 3 more ATK (and with how bitchingly powerful he is, I'd wonder if this could potentially OHKO some units), and gives Titania 1 ATK ,which she can stack with another point from either Boyd or Rhys for her best offensive boosting bet for lategame. These two, when she promotes, she can keep up with now that she has a horse. Everyone else on their lists have trouble doing this.

Then you gotta consider Jill, who would love the defense, and especially since it's damn fast. Neither would mind the extra bit of avoid, and both get a tidbit of power out of it.

I forget who the fuck else she has, but she doesn't have single support not below upper mid I believe.

Considering how easy it is for her to get 5 def and 4 ATK, it's certainly a support to be reckoned with.

[Colonel M]

Here, allow me to re-demonstrate how badly she needs these supports:

20/1 Mist (forged Steel Sword): 26-27 Atk (pending on A Mordy B something else) Atk

20/1 Volke (Dagger): 24 Atk

Yes she can get +1 more to her offense in about 3 level ups, but just goes to show how offensively bad she really is at this point.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

Didn't say she didn't need them, but that she is definitely being a boon to a team. Helps ehr have some for of offense (not spectacular, but still there), a horse, healing, and helping units be godly just by being in their presence, along with being their only support that can keep up with them.

Was just pointing out for the sake of the argument.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Colonel M]

I've conceded support on Volke vs Mist for the 100th time. We don't NEED to re-hash this over and over again.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

If the next argument for Mist has anything to do with supports, don't bother, that's already considered and I don't want to this to go around in circles. She has great supports, WE GET IT but damn, don't put so much weight on that.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Sirius

[Shadow Mir]

I forget who the fuck else she has, but she doesn't have single support not below upper mid I believe.

Aside from the ones you named, Mist has Boyd.

Mist also has Rofl, but...that's not even being considered.

[Florete]

Being forge dependent< Not being forge dependent. Mist of course can be Sealed later, but that's more time she spends jsut being an inferior Rhys, or substantially more BEXP involved. Hence we like to Seal Mist as soon as possible.

This forge thing is being blown out of proportion quite a lot. It's not easy to assume forges in this game as in RD, but as I'm mentioning for the third time now, almost everyone else on the team should already be ready with forges by the time Mist promotes. Her getting a single forge is just like anyone else getting a forge. It's no big deal.

Mist/Titania is actually one of her worst supports, because Titania's good enough without the boosts. But then again, that's saying something.

The option, though, is part of what makes her great.

Define how much she's going to take then in order to catch up. Having set amount of EXP is alright, but Mend is giving 11 EXP, which means it takes roughly 9-10 Player Phases in order to get 1 level up.

If my calculations are correct, there's 2150 BEXP available by ch. 10, and then a fuckton more (>1000) after ch. 10. Realistically, that leaves us with ~3000 BEXP at ch. 11 (That's about the amount I had on my last HM run). The way I usually do it, I give Mist one level up per base, usually 3-4 at ch. 10/11. 4 levels from level 1 is ~352 (less because she healed a bit on ch. 9), which is a bit more than 10% of what we currently have, not even the max possible. Depending on how long a chapter takes, Mist can get anywhere from 50-80 experience a map, so the BEXP to get her a level is negligible at best. In fact, she should be able to pull out another level of BEXP solely on what she's entitled to. By this method, she should easily be 20/1 by the end of ch. 17, and you can still have plenty of BEXP to spare.

I'm hurting efficiency enough as is by forcing forges down just to make Mist useful.

I'll never understand how a single forge is "hurting efficiency."

1) Crown. 2) Healing isn't necessary except the Black Knight fight perhaps. Notice how most units after C17 are usually upon "killface and rarely dying" mode.

Saying it's not necessary doesn't suddenly mean it's meaningless. Healing is still great to have.

Did I mention I conceded supports?

You did now. Good thing too, because that's one of her best points.

If the next argument for Mist has anything to do with supports, don't bother, that's already considered and I don't want to this to go around in circles. She has great supports, WE GET IT but damn, don't put so much weight on that.

That's not fair at all. You might as well disregard Volke's thieving utility because it's already been mentioned. Mist's supports are a big point and they will be brought up in an argument for her.

Hey, I also found this rather awesome post from Vykan.

Oh yeah, I forgot to address Mist sandbagging. I didn’t think much of her either until Reikken convinced me otherwise.

I’ll be focusing on Mist’s post-promotion contribution, though I’ll get back to that at the end of my argument.

First off, Mist is one of the most h4x supporters in the game. Of her options, 4 of them are in high/top tier (Titania, Boyd, Mordecai, Jill) and she is the best option for all of those units. Here are the bonuses we’re talking about:

Boyd A: 3 atk, 1 def

Boyd B: 2 atk, 1 def

Mordecai A: 3 atk, 3 def

Mordecai B: 2 atk, 2 def

Titania//Jill A: 1 atk, 3 def

Titania/Jill B: 1 atk, 2 def

There are a ton of combinations where Mist’s outgoing benefits are either +4 atk/+5 def or +5 atk/+4 def, and the atk in particular makes a big difference when considering doubling (6 extra damage per double for Boyd, which makes it easier for him to ORKO with hand weapons).

This is a huge advantage Mist has over other healers, especially since Mist’s mount allows her to have an easier time actually giving out those bonuses on a consistent basis.

Speaking of mounts, this gives Mist a lot of flexibility. Unlike Rhys/Soren/Ilyana, Mist can canto after healing, meaning Mist’s enemy phase never has to be a negative in any way. It also makes her more effective at using any non-physic staff. For instance, status effects becomes a common problem later in the game, so Mist restore & running is very useful.

Finally, Mist isn’t quite as useless in combat as people seem to think she is.

20/1 Mist (A Mordy, B Boyd, forged steel): 29 hp, 28 atk, 18 mag, 18 AS, 12 def, 21 res, 53 avo

28 atk is enough to 2RKO lv 3 generals (53% damage), and there’s plenty of unpromoteds it downright 1RKOes (lv 18 fighters, for instance). 18 AS doubles pretty much everything but iron sword myrmidons, so that’s not an issue. There’s obviously the sonic sword too, which lets her ORKO about 12.5 enemies at 1-2 range, something that easily outweighs taking 1-2 arm scrolls that nobody wants (weapon levels rise fast in this game so long as you use steel).

Defensively, she has mediocre concrete durability (-1 hp/+2 def on Makalov’s bases) but then 53 avo is pretty considerable, and she has a good chance at getting sol since so many occults are available, and only Ike/paladins make decent use of them.

She’s no Soren in combat, but even without a forge, she’s not always dead weight offensively. For instance, she makes for a great mage killer since she targets their low def while they target her massive res. And, her durability stats are at least decent, especially when you consider how her movement can allow her to avoid huge enemy confrontations thanks to hit & run. I’d say she is the most durable out of all the healers, though that’s a bit arguable.

The issue remains when it is Mist’s promoting, and how useful she is before then. It’s worth considering she’s basically guaranteed to be only your second healer on the team since early promoting Ilyana or Soren in Gallia is ludicrous. Since neither Rhys or Mist can attack before promotion and both have the survivability of a wet tissue, Mist is at worst Rhys’ equal for that period of time.

Mist boils down to getting excellent returns (supports, mobile healing, good to phenomenal attacking) when given a reasonably large amount of resources. The most crippling one would be BEXP since she needs a lot to either promote early to get mounted benefits ASAP, or to reach lv 20/1 before that 23-28 atk starts looking ugly.

[grandjackal]

Considering staffs, wouldn't a 10/20 deal work as well as a 20/10? Yes, early promotion.

Her stats at 10/1

23.5 HP, 6.15 Str(compensated with various support boosts of course), 12.5 Mag, 7 Skill, 13.6 Speed, 11.4 Luck, 6.35 Def (with support boosts accounted for of course), 12.6 Res.

Measure that as you will, I never went this route with anyone in FE9, so I wouldn't know how much this would actually help.But you get a healer with canto and horse movement earlier, which helps her supports that much sooner as now she can keep up with them.

[Colonel M]

And now with 10/1 Mist I have to not only forge max Mt onto the weapon, but also -Wt to compensate for it.

Mist boils down to getting excellent returns (supports, mobile healing, good to phenomenal attacking) when given a reasonably large amount of resources.

You see what I mean? Bolded is the main argument against her.

53 Avoid is not good either. Soldiers can still break 100 Hit IIRC with WTA, which while putting it somewhat below 50%, that's still a decent chance of getting hit.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M