take this radiant dawn test... if you dare

[Interceptor]

I'd like for everyone reading this thread to pay very close attention to the following two quotes, because they demonstrate how question #6 is a joke, and smash is a hypocrite. Here is what Cynthia said:

You're underrating Nephenee's 2-1 performance. Since we're forced to low man, Brom is the only other character that we're using(Heather is worse at combat that Nephenee). Brom soloing the chapter is very inefficient. In addtion to taking about twice as long, there's a great chance to Brom soloing the map will lead to losing out on Heather and several items from the houses(since bandits appear). You are rtight that you have to do something with your availability to make use of it, but Nephenee is obviously a useful character on 2-1 because she's essentially half the PC's. She also isn't that horrible in combat, especially since she can reliably double with the Stl Greatlance with transfers, but you fail to realize that transfers exist. She's a positive here because she helps complete the chapter more efficiently. I'm not even going to get into he 2-2 ans 2-E performances, although she could probably outclass Lethe/Danved/Makalov with these alone anyway.

I bolded the most important line for emphasis. Here is what smash said in reply, emphasis is HIS:

Neph has issues even visiting houses. She gets 3-4HKO'd, which means unless she's spamming vulneraries every turn she's likely going to die on you, since there are no chokepoints for Brom to clog up and protect her from enemy attacks.

The problem here is that Neph is automatically forced into the chapter, and she can't even just hide in a corner because right on turn 1 she's going to get attacked (so unlike, say, 1-1 where you could just have X unit hide in a corner and do nothing).

the houses don't have very useful stuff anyway. Maybe the steel axe for Brom so he can use something other than loliron, and some stuff you can sell for gold, but if it's only a few houses, Brom can just visit the house himself.

Notice how smash doesn't even address Cynthia's point -- at all. He does the following:

- replies with a complete non-sequitur about Neph being more fragile than Brom.

- mentions vulnerary spamming: note how this doesn't even slow Brom down at all, in fact it makes his job easier since she's attracting attention away from him, and countering enemies on Enemy Phase.

- jumps on the more pointless part of the post, which is the houses that have largely forgettable items.

At no point in that screed does he address the point that she made about Nephenee making the chapter easier to clear. Why doesn't he? I'll tell you why.

He doesn't for the same reason that he ignored my comment about ferrying weapons to Nephenee for 2-2: it's devastating to his case. His logical construct falls apart the moment that he's forced to admit that Nephenee has no negative utility in 2-1 or 2-2 at all, and in fact makes both chapters easier to clear. This assertion is easily provable with a simple thought experiment: imagine what would happen if Nephenee was not in those two chapters at all. Is there anyone here who thinks it would be easier to clear Part 2? Anyone? Bueller?

The irony here is that smash is guilty is doing exactly what he (wrongly) accused Cynthia of in the tier thread: a non-sensical "no you're wrong", in place of an actual argument.

Bravo, good sir, bravo.

[Hexmaster44]

Stop flaming, please. I realize you guys hate each other, but try to stay civil. This doesn't get us any further.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Hexmaster44

[-Cynthia-]

Stop flaming, please. I realize you guys hate each other, but try to stay civil. This doesn't get us any further.

I wouldn't really consider that flaming.

[Interceptor]

Stop flaming, please. I realize you guys hate each other, but try to stay civil. This doesn't get us any further.

Whu-huh? First of all, who is flaming? Second of all, I can't speak for smash, but I don't hate him, I think he's the most lovable Internet Superhero in the world. Life would be just a tiny bit more boring without him.

[Progenitus]

Your little act is cute, int, but no one is really stupid enough to fall for it.

See, simply because you can do a certain thing to make Neph "useful" in those chapters doesn't make her BETTER than the other part 2 units.

oh look neph might draw fire away from Brom if she sits around spamming vulneraries, except this doesn't really make Brom go much faster because most of the enemies do joke damage to him in the first place (23 att 4HKOs Neph, 18HKOs Brom lawl), and in fact if she's the one hogging the vulnerary, Brom's stuck with the lolherb.

Oh wait. Compare that to what someone like Mak could do in 2-3, which is plug a chokepoint and stop enemies from swarming Kieran/Geof while those two are busy rushing towards the boss so we can get tons of BEXP in this chapter.

And unfortunately Neph's "usefulness" isn't based on her killing lots of enemies so she's not an underleveled piece of crap when part 3 comes around, so I just want to remind you that if you're trying to make Neph "useful" in part 2, this cuts down on the number of kills she can actually get without slowing your team down, which just makes her performance for the rest of the game worse ANYWAY.

For example, if neph wants to gain even 1 level in 2-2, she'd need 5-6 kills. Do you think she can actually get anything near that without seriously slowing down the team?

i.e. Either Neph has "usefulness" in part 2, but is now like 20/2 in part 3, or she's "lolsuck" in part 2 but is now like ~20/5 in part 3. Pick your poison.

This assertion is easily provable with a simple thought experiment: imagine what would happen if Nephenee was not in those two chapters at all. Is there anyone here who thinks it would be easier to clear Part 2? Anyone? Bueller?

2-2 would actually be easier if you weren't trying to feed Neph kills here (and if you don't feed her kills, now she just enters part 3 even more underleveled than she already is). The only way Neph could be "useful" in this chapter is if she doesn't do anything and leave it to the rest of the team, who are literally leagues beyond her for the chapter, or she makes like one potshot that'd give her 5 exp. The point is, the more she tries to butt in, the more she just gets in the way, with her "lol i have the worst offense and defense on the team out of everyone not named Heather who isn't even useful for her fighting anyway so no one cares if I'm a better fighter than her".

2-1 would only miss you a couple of items, since that's pretty much all Neph CAN do in thsi chapter, and you yourself admitted that the items in the houses are largely pointless. Way to go, pal.

I would easily notice it more if Mak or Danved disappear and weren't around to plug up a chokepoint in 2-3 than if Neph disappeared.

[-Cynthia-]

Are you seriously saying that being more useful is not equivalant to being better? This statement more or less contradicts the entire basis of every character comparison ever, so you are essentially using different criteria for ""better" than the rest of the universe. Characters that are more useful are better, it's a fairly simple concept.

You're also bringing up things like "Neph is underleveled for part 3". This is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand which is your assertion that Nephenee is the worst unit in Part 2.

Also, I wouldn't agree with the assertion that the items in the houses are pointless. The Steel Axe and Javelin make Brom and Nephenee better, and the Ashera Icon/ Magic Card can be sold for good cash once they get to the GMs. There's also the issue of Heather's recruitment, if Brom has to fight every enemy on the map by himself combined with his low Mov, he may not even reach her before she exits the map. This would completely negate any utility Heather had for the rest of the game.

Edited June 17, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Jaybee]

I'm kinda disappointed that I missed out on all the fun:( This is amazing.

ITT SF vs Smash

2-2 would actually be easier if you weren't trying to feed Neph kills here (and if you don't feed her kills, now she just enters part 3 even more underleveled than she already is). The only way Neph could be "useful" in this chapter is if she doesn't do anything and leave it to the rest of the team, who are literally leagues beyond her for the chapter, or she makes like one potshot that'd give her 5 exp. The point is, the more she tries to butt in, the more she just gets in the way, with her "lol i have the worst offense and defense on the team out of everyone not named Heather who isn't even useful for her fighting anyway so no one cares if I'm a better fighter than her".

I'd love to see how you beat 2-2 without Neph. Also, "leagues above her" does not consider Lethe. Or are you seriously saying that the little piece of untransforming 4HKO'd shit is tons better than Neph?

You also didn't consider that Neph is practically the fastest way to taking Yeardley out - Wrath KO.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Joshybear25

[Progenitus]

Are you seriously saying that being more useful is not equivalant to being better? This statement more or less contradicts the entire basis of every character comparison ever, so you are essentially using different criteria for ""better" than the rest of the universe.

I don't even know what you're referring to.

You're also bringing up things like "Neph is underleveled for part 3". This is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand which is your assertion that Nephenee is the worst unit in Part 2.

No, it is entirely relevant. You can't just say "well, I'm going to try and make X unit as useful as possible in Y time period, since Y time period is the only time period under consideration", because this just heavily skews any comparison. Most units are used under the assumption that they will be used for a long time (I say most, since some units such as Sothe, who we use for some time and then drop, exist).

You can't go "well, you can use Neph this way so she'll be "useful" for part 2, ignoring the fact that this makes her underleveled for part 3", and then when you argue a normal debate you go "okay Neph will be used this other way so she'll be getting in our way for part 2 but won't be as underleveled for part 3".

Also, I wouldn't agree with the assertion that the items in the houses are pointless. The Steel Axe and Javelin make Brom and Nephenee better, and the Ashera Icon/ Magic Card can be sold for good cash once they get to the GMs.

Brom has to visit most of the houses himself anyway, due to the fact that Neph can't visit a house without risking her life.

Anyway, it was int who said the items in the houses are pointless, so argue it with him.

There's also the issue of Heather's recruitment, if Brom has to fight every enemy on the map by himself combined with his low Mov, he may not even reach her before she exits the map. This would completely negate any utility Heather had for the rest of the game.

Recruitment is never considered for a unit's usefulness.

We never consider Laura recruiting Aran as an argument for Laura.

We never consider Clarine recruiting Rutger as an argument for Clarine.

We never consider Serra recruiting Erk as an argument for Serra.

Why would we do it for Neph recruiting Heather?

Nevermind that it's not very hard to recruit Heather at all.

[Interceptor]

Your little act is cute, int, but no one is really stupid enough to fall for it.

It's not an "act", smash: it's a very straightforward example of how you 1) blatantly ignored Cynthia's central argument, 2) replied with a non sequitur, and 3) attacked the weakest part of her post.

In short, you did exactly what you constantly accuse other people of doing. And now, the first post of page 6 in this thread shall internet-forever serve as a monument to this particular bit of irony. You should be proud of what you've accomplished in such a short period of time.

i.e. Either Neph has "usefulness" in part 2, but is now like 20/2 in part 3, or she's "lolsuck" in part 2 but is now like ~20/5 in part 3. Pick your poison.

smash, what on earth are you talking about? You've already picked the poison: you stipulated right in the question that, and I quote:

Considering performance in part 2 ONLY, and excluding Astrid, who is the worst unit in part 2?

I don't see how Part 3 has anything at all to do with this. Certainly you can't assume that a player is going to continue to use Lucia in Part 4, or Lethe, or Makalov, or Kieran, or any of the multitude of units who can do things in Part 2 without actually having to commit them elsewhere. Clearly you thought that it was important to note this, because you put ONLY in caps. Am I not correct on this point?

2-2 would actually be easier if you weren't trying to feed Neph kills here

It seems that you have no idea how to use Nephenee in this chapter. That's fine, I am willing to help you out by giving you some tips for the next time that you play. A rising tide lifts all boats, etc. Here's some bullet points full of wisdom:

- Before 2-P is over, have Nealuchi take away Marcia's Steel Lance and Javelin. This gives Nephenee a wepaon that she can double with without getting wegihed down, and a 1-2 range weapon that doesn't require any acrobatics in 2-1 to get.

- Note how Mordecai and Nealuchi are pretty tough and hard to kill when transformed, but have a hard time killing things. But Nephenee + Mordecai-or-Neal will generally kill something. If Neph uses her Javelin to avoid a counter, she doesn't even need to go second!

- The only person with more flexbility on offense when it comes to placement is Nealuchi, because he can Canto. This is because she, Lucia, and Heather are the only ones with 1-2 range weapons. What does this mean? Well it means that Leanne's awkward Vigor setup is easier to use with Nephenee, because she has more freedom of places to stand. This means that you can get more kills more quickly, and make maximum use of Vigor.

Good luck! I'm sure you can take my advice here and really do some good in chapter 2-2.

you yourself admitted that the items in the houses are largely pointless. Way to go, pal.

Well, that's the difference between you and I, isn't it smash? I have no skin in the game, and I can freely admit the veracity of key facts without threatening my ego in the process. Gee willikers, I can even admit when I am wrong!

Not that it applies in this situation or anything, but this is a teaching moment and I didn't want to squander the opportunity.

I would easily notice it more if Mak or Danved disappear and weren't around to plug up a chokepoint in 2-3 than if Neph disappeared.

Again, for those watching this thread at home: he does not directly address my point of Nephenee not existing, he just makes a glancing blow by mentioning what the effect of a completely unrelated unit also ceasing to exist would be. He's pretty good at this, isn't he? Dodges and dodges without missing a beat. No tangent is too irrelevant, no argument is too pointed to ignore.

[Jaybee]

Dodges and dodges without missing a beat. No tangent is too irrelevant, no argument is too pointed to ignore.

You just reminded me of one of those Wii Sport training exercises...

[Florete]

I forget why I bothered in the first place.

[-Cynthia-]

I don't even know what you're referring to.

Being good is equivalent to how useful they are, I don't see what's so hard to understand about it.

No, it is entirely relevant. You can't just say "well, I'm going to try and make X unit as useful as possible in Y time period, since Y time period is the only time period under consideration", because this just heavily skews any comparison. Most units are used under the assumption that they will be used for a long time (I say most, since some units such as Sothe, who we use for some time and then drop, exist).

You can't go "well, you can use Neph this way so she'll be "useful" for part 2, ignoring the fact that this makes her underleveled for part 3", and then when you argue a normal debate you go "okay Neph will be used this other way so she'll be getting in our way for part 2 but won't be as underleveled for part 3".

Pretty much using Neph at all makes her more useful for Part 3, since killing units both helps the team and gives her CEXP.

Brom has to visit most of the houses himself anyway, due to the fact that Neph can't visit a house without risking her life.

Underrating Neph's durability again. getting 3-4HKOd at less than perfect hit rates does not equal suicide.

Anyway, it was int who said the items in the houses are pointless, so argue it with him.

OK, I will. The Ashera Icon yields 4000 gold for the GMs, the Spectre Card another 1500g. They're more reasons the GMs are not poor. The Concoction is useful if Nephenee taking Vulenaries is as big of an issue as smash claims, Nephenee getting the Javelin is good if Marcia can't ferry hers (and yet Silver Lance Aran Part 1 is reasonable?), and Brom can use the Steel Axe to have less fail offense until 2-E.

Recruitment is never considered for a unit's usefulness.

We never consider Laura recruiting Aran as an argument for Laura.

We never consider Clarine recruiting Rutger as an argument for Clarine.

We never consider Serra recruiting Erk as an argument for Serra.

Why would we do it for Neph recruiting Heather?

Nevermind that it's not very hard to recruit Heather at all.

It's significantly more difficult when not using Nephenee, since Brom is only 2-3RKOing things. Enemies often block the gap Brom uses to get down, so he has to kill them to get down, and this is done faster with Nephenee's help. There's also the fact that Brom has to spend more Player Phases healing himself if enemies aren't killed as quickly or are targeting Brom all the time instead of targeting Brom and Nephenee. Overall Nephenee makes recruting Heather easier, which is different than the other characters you listed because recruiting Heather is time sensitive. It's another way Nephenee adds to team efficiency during 2-1.

Edited June 17, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Progenitus]

You know, I was typing up a lot of shit, but fuck it.

If you want to argue with me, make a topic about it on the debate board. Nothing will ever get done unless it's in an "official" debate and an actual winner will eventually be declared.

I just remembered the first theory of debating Fire Emblem: If no conclusion is reached within 3 exchanges, there is a 95% chance that no conclusion will be reached within an infinite number of exchanges.

I don't want to waste anymore time on something that will produce no results.

Of course I know people are just going to pussy out anyway, so I don't even know why I bothered telling everyone.

This is evidently going to persist for a very long time >_>

This is a fire emblem debate. Nothing ever gets done in them. Of course it's going to last for a very long time.

Edited June 17, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Zath of the Sword]

heh heh heh for question two... it really should be the BK

and as for Pelleas... i just did the first chapter were you get him and he promoted near the end along with Meg who had paragron my only other used unit was Mia trueblade about three kills by Tibran and healing from Elincia. Pelleas is really the only dark magic user worth useing how could you not use him?

[Vykan12]

This is evidently going to persist for a very long time >_>

[dondon151]

Of course I know people are just going to pussy out anyway

Like you're doing right now?

By the way, Brom's offense is worse than Nephenee's. You also haven't addressed a single argument against your Beastfoe question.

[-Cynthia-]

You know, I was typing up a lot of shit, but fuck it.

If you want to argue with me, make a topic about it on the debate board. Nothing will ever get done unless it's in an "official" debate and an actual winner will eventually be declared.

I just remembered the first theory of debating Fire Emblem: If no conclusion is reached within 3 exchanges, there is a 95% chance that no conclusion will be reached within an infinite number of exchanges.

I don't want to waste anymore time on something that will produce no results.

Of course I know people are just going to pussy out anyway, so I don't even know why I bothered telling everyone.

Perhaps you're unsure of how the standard debate system works, but it's comparing one character to another over the course of the entire game, not attempting to prove a character in the worst in a particular Part (and failing quite hard at it I must add).

Edited June 17, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Progenitus]

I also like holding the shit on the debate boards because I get less trolling from people like cynthia.

by the way, you can hold conditional debates, where you assume certain things to be true (such as a unit joining at a time they normally don't), so you can easily hold a conditional debate about units in a specific part. You would've known that if you actually tried debating for real, not "lulz I troll the shit out of ppl"

Edited June 17, 2009 by smash fanatic

[dondon151]

You can set preconditions about debating units over certain segments of the game.

By the way, Brom's offense is worse than Nephenee's. You also haven't addressed a single argument against your Beastfoe question.

[Interceptor]

I had one "weak" argument [...] misunderstanding

It's rather creative for you to label your hypocritical screed as a "weak" argument that was "misunderstood". The facts are, regettably, not actually subject to your approval. But, thanks for your input anyway.

On the other hand, the way we're assuming Neph is used is that we're going to use her for a long time [...] On the other hand, if the tier player decides to use someone like Lucia, he's going to use her for 2-2 and then ignore her for the rest of the game.

This is a rather silly statement to make, and you've painted yourself in a corner.

There is no reason to assume that Nephenee is always going used. This is especially true if you're talking about Hard Mode, where no shortcut to deity-hood exists. Certianly she's not a top tier unit like Haar, who is deployed a very high percentage of the time even when not being used seriously.

I mean, it's not as if you have a choice of whether to put Nephenee on the map in 2-1 and 2-2. If you have no intention of using her seriously past 2-E -- and she's hardly necessary for beating the game -- it's completely pointless to make life harder on yourself by kill-favoring a unit that's going to get benched.

Really, smash, your logic is awful. to take an extreme example, I can make Lucia good in Part 4 by spending 600 turns in 2-2 getting her to Trueblade. That doesn't suggest that anyone is actually going to do such a thing.

That's funny, because on my very last playthrough, I did exactly that. Gave Neph the steel lance and javelin from Marcia.

Good, that's a nice beginning step. Now do the other things that I mentioned, instead of stopping at the first one and patting yourself on the back for getting that far.

[...] fuck vigoring the worst fighter on the field. That doesn't make my chapter go faster. I vigor good units, not crappy ones. Are you going to be retarded and vigor shit like Calill in 2-E when you could vigor someone like Haar? Are you going to vigor Neph in 2-2 when you could vigor someone like Mordy?

Leanne's Vigor is pretty awkward to use in 2-2, and Nephenee gives you more opportunities to use it efficiently than most others. I mean, honestly, what does it matter that you're the worst fighter when a tnak like Mordy is still 2RKO on so many units? If Mordy + Nephenee kills a unit in tandem, or you Vigor Mordy and have him kill the unit, the unit is still exactly as dead in both scenarios (unless it's an Armor, or something). Except Nephenee doesn't burn gauge.

By the way, if you want to talk about transferring weapons from 2-P to 2-2 via Nealuchi/Leanne, I can transfer the short axe you get in 2-P and give it to Brom, so he can also attack at 2-range.

Cool, go for it. Shame about him having worse accuracy with it than Nephenee's javelin, though.

ITT: Int doesn't know how to read. And the hilarious thing is, his answer is RIGHT ABOVE the passage he quoted.

Oh I know how to read, I just also know what a lame argument and/or irrelevant tangent is.

I mean, if I pointed out that Mordecai is pretty amazing in Part 3 with Resolve, and you countered by saying that Boyd gets OHKO'ed by everything, I would just ignore your irrelevant point since it has nothing to do with anything. It does not imply that I concede a point, nor does it imply that I agree with your statement, it just means that I have more important things to do than entertain your every thought.

[Florete]

A minor nitpick: Brom starts with C rank in Axes, and Short Axe is B. I don't recall ever being able to have him use it at the start of 2-2.

[-Cynthia-]

I also like holding the shit on the debate boards because I get less trolling from people like cynthia.

by the way, you can hold conditional debates, where you assume certain things to be true (such as a unit joining at a time they normally don't), so you can easily hold a conditional debate about units in a specific part. You would've known that if you actually tried debating for real, not "lulz I troll the shit out of ppl"

A debate trying to argue Nephenee as the worst unit in Part 2(excluding Astrid) would be pretty ridiculous, since the person defending Nephenee would only have to show that she's better than any one of the other Part 2 units. You'd pretty much be fighting an impossible battle. It would also be teidous due to the sheer number of unit comparisons necessary.

And by the way, I've participated in several organized debates and won more than I've lost, I'm actually one of the debate judges. Calling me a troll isn't going to get you much of anywhere. It really isn't my fault your arguments are based nearly entirely off of personal opinion rather than logic.

Edited June 17, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Interceptor]

A minor nitpick: Brom starts with C rank in Axes, and Short Axe is B. I don't recall ever being able to have him use it at the start of 2-2.

Why would smash bother fact-checking? Although, shame on me for missing that. I am getting slow in my old age. Too bad that smash deleted his post before most people saw it, but not before I saw it and saved it for posterity.

Anyway smash, I already turned down your debate challenge, but that was before the board imploded. I'm sure that my post was full of colorful metaphors and was ever-so-slightly condescending to you, but I'm too tired to come up with a new one, so let's just assume that this post is an equally witty rejection.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Interceptor

[Progenitus]

By the way, Brom's offense is worse than Nephenee's.

What's your point?

You also haven't addressed a single argument against your Beastfoe question.

When was it even brought up?

A debate trying to argue Nephenee as the worst unit in Part 2(excluding Astrid) would be pretty ridiculous, since the person defending Nephenee would only have to show that she's better than any one of the other Part 2 units. You'd pretty much be fighting an impossible battle.

I would only have to show that she's worse than Makalov/Danved, since there's no argument at all for everyone else.

And by the way, I've participated in several organized debates and won more than I've lost, I'm actually one of the debate judges. Calling me a troll isn't going to get you much of anywhere.

I can pull out examples where you trolled in the tier topic. Want me to do it?

[Vykan12]

If you want to argue with me, make a topic about it on the debate board. Nothing will ever get done unless it's in an "official" debate and an actual winner will eventually be declared.

What are you proposing, specifically? Something like Neph vs Lethe part 2 only?