take this radiant dawn test... if you dare

[Progenitus]

Why would smash bother fact-checking? Although, shame on me for missing that. I am getting slow in my old age. Too bad that smash deleted his post before most people saw it, but not before I saw it and saved it for posterity.

Anyway smash, I already turned down your debate challenge, but that was before the board imploded. I'm sure that my post was full of colorful metaphors and was ever-so-slightly condescending to you, but I'm too tired to come up with a new one, so let's just assume that this post is an equally witty rejection.

So basically, you know you're going to lose to me in a real debate topic, so you'll only argue in a place where you can "claim" victory. That is, you keep posting stupid crap until people get sick of you.

That is, after all, the Interceptor Theory: Whoever gets the last word in the argument is the winner.

What are you proposing, specifically? Something like Neph vs Lethe part 2 only?

Mostly anything pertaining to the 10 questions really.

[Vykan12]

K, well I challenge you to Neph vs Lethe part 2 only, taking Neph's side.

[Interceptor]

I can pull out examples where you trolled in the tier topic. Want me to do it?

Do it, it'll be fun for everyone. Your liberal definition of "trolling" tends to means that some Internet plebian dared disagree with your conclusions, or doubted your logic, or perhaps ignored some random Argument Safari that you went on.

[Progenitus]

K, well I challenge you to Neph vs Lethe part 2 only, taking Neph's side.

That's fine. Mind if you open? I have some other things to do right now.

[Vykan12]

Deal. I'll see if I can open tonight, but if not, tomorrow for sure.

[dondon151]

What's your point?

The point is, the more she tries to butt in, the more she just gets in the way, with her "lol i have the worst offense and defense on the team out of everyone not named Heather

Remember what you post? No?

When was it even brought up?

Well, aside from me specifically saying that if question 5 is "no one" then it's BS:

i disagree with 6/4/and beastfoe one

A case could easily be made for Nolan, Leonardo, and Volug, and against people like Zihark, Sothe, and Edward.

I would only have to show that she's worse than Makalov/Danved, since there's no argument at all for everyone else.

Calill? Heather? I mean, Calill's easily worse than Nephenee, being terrible in the only chapter that she's in, and Heather's offense and defense are just so bad that I'm not sure if a Discipline and an Olivi Grass can offset it. Unless you plan on painstakingly having her steal a Dracoshield or waste turns carrying her over to find an Arms Scroll...

Heck, even Lethe I can consider, requiring limited resources and turns to stay functional in 2-2 and then being just bad in 2-E because given the huge number of enemies, using her in a position that's not totally safe (i.e. not exposed to more than like 3 attacks) carries a risk of her untransforming and instantly dying.

Edited June 17, 2009 by dondon151

[Progenitus]

Do it, it'll be fun for everyone. Your liberal definition of "trolling" tends to means that some Internet plebian dared disagree with your conclusions, or doubted your logic, or perhaps ignored some random Argument Safari that you went on.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?...mp;#entry448778

For the people who don't want to read cynthia's post and have their IQ drop after reading it, I will post only the funny tidbits.

For example, transfers.

This was me

And transfers has and will always be a ridiculous argument. yes, I'm going to play ~30 chapters of a completely different game just to have a chance of getting +2 to a couple of stats for specific units. It can't even be for all the characters in PoR because you simply don't have the resources to get them to 20/20, so simply choosing transfers for certain units and not others is already favoritism. and then if your chosen characters get RNG screwed and don't cap you just wasted a fuckload of time.

This was him.

You are really the only person that completely discount transfers as a possibility. They are a part of the game, get over it.

Eloquently worded "no u" is always a strong argument, mirite

Here's another one about Jill's hit with the brave axe (a weapon someone brought up earlier about Jill 2-rounding, probably from cynthia)

this was me.

Only Jill has a lot less hit than everyone, since she has ~130 hit with the brave axe against cats who have ~50 avoid at neutral biorhythm, which means Jill actually has 27.7% for one of the hits to miss with true hit considered, while everyone else is swinging around 90-100 hit weapons and/or overkill skl so they have like 100 displayed hit. If biorhythm puts her down by even FIVE hit (she at bad and the enemy at neutral, for example), her chances to miss one of her four attacks now increases to 40.7%. If she's down 10 hit, she misses one of her 4 attacks 54.1% of the time. By this point she may as well not even fucking attack.

This was him.

Jill could also be using a +hit forge or have a support partner that boosts hit, you've basically set her up in the worst possible postion to screw up her hit. Of course when Aran only has 55 hit with a Javelin at base that's entirely insignificant. Because it's Aran.

Aran's hit with a javelin that I never ever mentioned is entirely relevant to Jill's hit with the brave axe, mirite

I split his response into two parts and talked about Jill's performance with a forge, in addition to the difficulty of actually supporting a unit that gives +hit (it's worth noting that earlier he suggested that Jill also support a unit that gave +def, which means Edward for some reason decided to support Jill, or Jill is h4x and supported two different units simultaneously).

This was me, in response to how Jill has issues 8HKOing tigers with a brave axe.

JILL USES UP 20% OF THE BRAVE AXE AND STILL MAY NOT EVEN KILL OFF ONE TIGER.

BEST UNIT EVAR, MIRITE

This was him

Despite what you may have been told, caps lock is not cruise control for cool.

Style over substance fallacy counters all, mirite

I could go on, and this is just from one post.

great troll or greatest troll?

Well, maybe not greatest, since int has the crown.

Remember what you post? No?

Neph loses offense if she can't double, which is pretty much every promoted enemy in the chapter as well as most of the archers, and even if she doubles armors she only beats Brom's damage by a slight amount due to how much def they have. The only enemies she really outdamages Brom against are soldiers and mages. Hardly an offense lead worth talking about.

Not to mention if she decides to use her javelin her offense decreases significantly.

And even if it were true, pointing out ONE exception doesn't change a thing, especially since Brom stomps on her durability.

Well, aside from me specifically saying that if question 5 is "no one" then it's BS:

Saying "an argument can be made" and then not actually providing the argument doesn't answer anything. I should remind you that I gave my reasoning, albeit a short one, which is "everyone lolOHKOs".

At this point in time I'm the one ahead in the argument, so if you want to prove me wrong, now it's YOUR turn to answer back.

Calill? Heather? I mean, Calill's easily worse than Nephenee, being terrible in the only chapter that she's in, and Heather's offense and defense are just so bad that I'm not sure if a Discipline and an Olivi Grass can offset it. Unless you plan on painstakingly having her steal a Dracoshield or waste turns carrying her over to find an Arms Scroll...

I'm not going to get dragged into this anymore. Make a topic on the debate board if you want to continue this.

Edited June 17, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Interceptor]

So basically, you know you're going to lose to me in a real debate topic, so you'll only argue in a place where you can "claim" victory. That is, you keep posting stupid crap until people get sick of you.

Honestly, this quote here just highlights the philisophical differences between us.

Your primary motivation for participating in Fire Emblem debates is to "curbstomp" people. That's why you change the subject repeatedly, adamantly refuse to concede points whenever possible, reach back into the aether and drag out arguments from 1-2 years ago, mock people with "durrhurrr but Nephiknees can duble" style comments, fling up straw men, use magical powers of pre-cognition to counter things that nobody actually said, etc. You argue to win, and you make it personal, evidenced by the juvenile comment above. You care about recognition and validation, as evidenced by this thead and others like it.

I grew out of that phase a long time ago, hopscotch. I follow tier lists because they interest me, and I participate in them because it's entertaining, I argue because I like it, and I get to occasionally post things that are amusing, which I enjoy doing. I have no stake in winners or losers, just arguments and data.

This is the difference between you and I.

That is, after all, the Interceptor Theory: Whoever gets the last word in the argument is the winner.

If only this were actually true. Perhaps if you were to stop projecting your own personality traits on to other people, you'd have a better understanding of their motivations.

[Vykan12]

ITT: Interceptor makes a psych profile of Smash.

[-Cynthia-]

ITT: I get called a troll for pointing out smash's unhealthy obsession with caps lock. I'm also a guy apparently, or smash has not yet mastered the subtle art of correct gender pronouns that we learned back in the first grade.

[Interceptor]

ITT: Interceptor makes a psych profile of Smash.

At this point, I feel like I've known him since he was a wee Superhero.

I'll be reading that debate, don't disappoint.

[dondon151]

Saying "an argument can be made" and then not actually providing the argument doesn't answer anything. I should remind you that I gave my reasoning, albeit a short one, which is "everyone lolOHKOs".

OK, then.

Aran needs 24 strength to blick the weakest tiger with Steel Greatlance. He won't average this until 20/6. For the strongest tiger, he needs 30 strength, which he won't average until 20/10/4. Evidently the "everyone" part of you statement is false.

Let's explore some more failure characters, since I only need to thoroughly disprove the "everyone" portion of your statement.

Meg needs 27 strength to blick the weakest tiger with Steel Blade. She won't average this until 20/20/1. If we lower our sights to the strongest cat, she needs 20 strength, or 20/7. Of course, there's always the Brave Sword, but other people might want it.

Eddie is the same. The difference is that he'll double tigers, but he wtill won't have 20 strength for all cats until 20/5.

Fiona - shouldn't have to mention her.

The thing is, unless you're Nolan, Zihark, or Leo, you're required to use a Brave Sword/Axe to blick the laguz with Beastfoe, and I'm sure we don't want to eat through weapons that quickly.

Then, of course, there's also the issue of asking for too much to chew. Nolan, probably the most durable beorc on the team, is 3RKO'd even with +4 defense from Tarvos, so essentially equipping Beastfoe on a frontliner is asking for death (simple solution here is switching to joke weapons or not using Nolan on the frontline). Whatever the case, the simple fact that there are certain non-candidates for Beastfoe means that there are most definitely correct answers to the question (that aren't just "no one").

I'm not going to get dragged into this anymore. Make a topic on the debate board if you want to continue this.

I would if I had an debating experience, but Vykan is already taking you against Lethe (so it would be kind of redundant) and I'm sure there's not much to say about Calill's performance in part 2, so why not just do it here?

Edited June 17, 2009 by dondon151

[Vykan12]

What's wrong with Calill in 2-E? Meteor tome allows her to damage Ludveck at range on the middle platform, and apparently he doesn't get healed since enemies are just that stupid. I'll need confirmation on that point though (I just happened to read it somewhere, never actually tested it myself).

Edited June 17, 2009 by Vykan12

[dondon151]

I think "2RKO'd" pretty accurately sums up Calill's situation in 2-E, and she's 3RKOing back.

Damaging Ludveck is bonus points but that's one enemy in a sea of a thousand.

[-Cynthia-]

What's wrong with Calill in 2-E? Meteor tome allows her to damage Ludveck at range on the middle platform, and apparently he doesn't get healed since enemies are just that stupid. I'll need confirmation on that point though (I just happened to read it somewhere, never actually tested it myself).

I don't really recall, but Callil's "chip" damage with Meteor does help put Ludveck into various people's kill ranges. Killign Ludveck is kind if important since it helps clear the chapter.

She's not really durable here, but she can take shots at people from ledges or behind Mordecai/Haar/Brom. I would say she's more useful than the weaker CRK's since she's around for the first half of the chapter. She's not fantastic, but she's not bad either.

Edited June 17, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

Damaging Ludveck is bonus points but that's one enemy in a sea of a thousand.

It also helps end the chapter sooner.

Also note that she can attack at range from the sandbag on the eastern side of the map, or she can attack from above a ledge. Not particularly useful, but not really hurting the team either.

Edit: Seems Cynthia beat me to it :S

Edited June 17, 2009 by Vykan12

[dondon151]

It also helps end the chapter sooner.

Except this really isn't imperative as you will have no problem choking two points on the map all day long. As much of a boon as it is, we do have to weigh the significance of clearing the chapter in fewer turns against more CEXP.

Haar and Elincia do this as well, though I'm sure you knew that already.

Also note that she can attack at range from the sandbag on the eastern side of the map, or she can attack from above a ledge. Not particularly useful, but not really hurting the team either.

Nephenee can do this as well with a Javelin or Short Spear. I'm going to point out that even attacking behind the sandbag is iffy because if Calill ends up killing something on enemy phase, she's dead (this is actually how Calill died in my current HM playthrough).

Edited June 17, 2009 by dondon151

[Progenitus]

OK, then.

Aran needs 24 strength to blick the weakest tiger with Steel Greatlance. He won't average this until 20/6. For the strongest tiger, he needs 30 strength, which he won't average until 20/10/4. Evidently the "everyone" part of you statement is false

He should be using a max mt steel lance instead of a steel great, since the DB should have enough money, and you want extra hit. He'll have an easier time OHKOing the weaker tigers (which admittedly isn't worth much, since they aren't common). He'll still leave tigers at single digit HP so anyone can finish it off (or if it took any sort of damage beforehand, the tiger gets killed), and since one rounding is apparently a really bad sin for some reason in this chapter, leaving them slightly alive may be a good thing, or at least not much worse than OHKOing.

However, it's worth noting that if we give him beastfoe, he OHKOs cats easily, which actually IMPROVES his durability since the cat now can't get its second attack in, because it died.

Let's explore some more failure characters, since I only need to thoroughly disprove the "everyone" portion of your statement.

Meg needs 27 strength to blick the weakest tiger with Steel Blade. She won't average this until 20/20/1. If we lower our sights to the strongest cat, she needs 20 strength, or 20/7. Of course, there's always the Brave Sword, but other people might want it.

Eddie is the same. The difference is that he'll double tigers, but he wtill won't have 20 strength for all cats until 20/5.

Fiona - shouldn't have to mention her.

Hooray you talked about units we are hardly ever fielding.

So what? These guys may as well not exist anyway.

And how is Edward with beastfoe not OHKOing cats anyway? Caladbolg has 45 mt with beastfoe, which means Edward only needs 14 str to OHKO the most durable cat. He gets that in tier 1.

The thing is, unless you're Nolan, Zihark, or Leo, you're required to use a Brave Sword/Axe to blick the laguz with Beastfoe, and I'm sure we don't want to eat through weapons that quickly.

There are only 12 guys available in 3-12.

You listed 3 of them.

2 of them are lolmeg and lolfiona, so we don't care about them.

2 of them are Micaiah and Laura who are healing 90% of the time.

You ignored Jill and Edward, who are OHKOing cats and 2HKOing tigers, and double tigers.

You ignored Aran who is OHKOing cats (improving his durability since they now don't get the second attack in) and leaves tigers with sub-5 HP.

Then we have Volug/Sothe, who do improve with beastfoe though not as much as the others (volug now OHKOs cats too, and one rounds tigers, and Sothe can now use a weapon with higher hit, since beast killer is lol65 hit). But the point is they do improve.

That's all 12. We have 2 joke units no one cares about, 2 people healbotting, and 8 other fighters who all improve with beastfoe.

Then, of course, there's also the issue of asking for too much to chew. Nolan, probably the most durable beorc on the team, is 3RKO'd even with +4 defense from Tarvos, so essentially equipping Beastfoe on a frontliner is asking for death (simple solution here is switching to joke weapons or not using Nolan on the frontline). Whatever the case, the simple fact that there are certain non-candidates for Beastfoe means that there are most definitely correct answers to the question (that aren't just "no one").

Any unit worried about killing off too many laguz can simply go "lol2-range". Other than Volug, but he's not worried about dying.

[Vykan12]

Except this really isn't imperative as you will have no problem choking two points on the map all day long. As much of a boon as it is, we do have to weigh the significance of clearing the chapter in fewer turns against more CEXP.

She can help end the chapter when you feel like it. There’s clearly some use behind that.

Nephenee can do this as well with a Javelin or Short Spear.

Not quite as effectively, though.

I'm going to point out that even attacking behind the sandbag is iffy because if Calill ends up killing something on enemy phase, she's dead (this is actually how Calill died in my current HM playthrough).

Calill can opt to attack an enemy who has 1 range, so for her to die, she needs that enemy to suicide into someone, another enemy with range to move in that place and attack her, that enemy must be critted, then another ranged enemy has to fill that space and hit her. That’s quite a few coincidences that have to rack up.

Anyway, if that sandbag is causing her survival issues, she can alternatively attack from atop the western stairs.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Vykan12

[dondon151]

He should be using a max mt steel lance instead of a steel great, since the DB should have enough money, and you want extra hit. He'll have an easier time OHKOing the weaker tigers (which admittedly isn't worth much, since they aren't common). He'll still leave tigers at single digit HP so anyone can finish it off (or if it took any sort of damage beforehand, the tiger gets killed), and since one rounding is apparently a really bad sin for some reason in this chapter, leaving them slightly alive may be a good thing, or at least not much worse than OHKOing.

Max MT Steel Lance just lowers the level requirement, but keep in mind that Aran will probably be something like 16/1 instead of 20/1, so my point still stands - he won't OHKO any tigers.

By the way, my first purpose was to disprove that everyone instablicks everything, so let's not run around in circles.

However, it's worth noting that if we give him beastfoe, he OHKOs cats easily, which actually IMPROVES his durability since the cat now can't get its second attack in, because it died.

That still leaves Aran open to more attacks, but I'll give this to you.

Hooray you talked about units we are hardly ever fielding.

But I did talk about what constitutes "everyone," didn't I?

And how is Edward with beastfoe not OHKOing cats anyway? Caladbolg has 45 mt with beastfoe, which means Edward only needs 14 str to OHKO the most durable cat. He gets that in tier 1.

I forgot it existed.

You ignored Jill and Edward, who are OHKOing cats and 2HKOing tigers, and double tigers.

No, more like I knew that Jill and Edward were OHKOing cats and 2HKOing tigers.

You ignored Aran who is OHKOing cats (improving his durability since they now don't get the second attack in) and leaves tigers with sub-5 HP.

Pretty sure I knew that Aran was OHKOing cats (since I didn't care to mention it), and I'm also pretty sure that I mentioned Aran not OHKOing tigers!

That's all 12. We have 2 joke units no one cares about, 2 people healbotting, and 8 other fighters who all improve with beastfoe.

Forget people "improving with Beastfoe," I decidedly proved that not everyone was instablicking everything, which means that your contention was incorrect.

Any unit worried about killing off too many laguz can simply go "lol2-range". Other than Volug, but he's not worried about dying.

If we lock that unit to 2 range, then who's frontlining? Not to mention that 1-2 range weapons are much, much weaker than anything that we would use to instablick laguz.

There are clearly superior options and inferior options for Beastfoe. Clear enough to warrant something more than "no one in particular."

[dondon151]

She can help end the chapter when you feel like it. There’s clearly some use behind that.

Yes, I already admitted to this. I also said that this utility, while not negligible, is not very significant.

Not quite as effectively, though.

Depends on the enemy. Nephenee needs 22 AS to double most of the enemies on the map, which she may be likely to have (3 levels). Neph doubles while Calill attacks res. Calill does better against generals; Neph against most everything else.

Calill can opt to attack an enemy who has 1 range, so for her to die, she needs that enemy to suicide into someone, another enemy with range to move in that place and attack her, that enemy must be critted, then another ranged enemy has to fill that space and hit her. That’s quite a few coincidences that have to rack up.

The second enemy could already be wounded, or the ally units can do something to fuck you up. I'm probably going to get responses of "lol you use ally units" but I don't see why we wouldn't use them to complete a chapter more efficiently. Less work for the player.

Anyway, if that sandbag is causing her survival issues, she can alternatively attack from atop the western stairs.

True. But Nephenee can do all of this as well as take 1-2 more attacks on enemy phase, and I doubt Calill's ability to attack Ludveck supersedes Neph's utility on 2-1 and 2-2.

EDIT: crap, please merge this post with the one above, unless it would look bad or something. I didn't mean to double post.

Edited June 17, 2009 by dondon151

[Mekkah]

so um yeah

zihark sucks in 3-6

and mia is a threat to generals

and

Neph has issues even visiting houses. She gets 3-4HKO'd

Edited June 17, 2009 by Mekkah

[Vykan12]

That motivator is sig worthy.

I wrote my opener in the debate topic for Neph vs Lethe.

[Interceptor]

great troll or greatest troll?

You keep using that word, I don't think that it means what you think it means. The only thing there that was even remotely close to trolling was the comment about Aran's HIT with a javelin, and that was more a cheap shot than anythng else.

That motivator is sig worthy.

The quote definitely is, and I'll prove it.

[Sain_FEH]

I should've just automatically failed you for listing Rolf as one of the two best units in the game

Well my success ratios with him make him the second best in my opinion, considering this quiz (and especially judging by the response) is just opinion, I'm going to stand by it. I dare you to level up Rolf and give him Adept and tell me he's not unstoppable. He ORKOs everything and has Marksman range so he gets counterattacked by no one. He takes a little time to get going but once he hits his stride, watch out.

And I'm still of the opinion that Volug - along with every non-Royal laguz (except Skrimir and Herons) is useless unless you're really into wasting XP.