Worst weapon type in this game overall

[Yojinbo]

That's the thing though, it just rewards characters who hit their cap first. There's no point in units that just aren't gonna hit their cap any time soon.

Did you ever play FE10 HM? 1/4 effective BExp and no cap-ramming at all ... really, if you haven't played FE10 on HM you don't know how different the gameplay can be. You'll suddenly start to appreciate Mordecai and realize that Nephenee is just garbage. You know why Tauroneo is in this game and stop wasting your time raising "growth whores" like Jill or Mia. Micaiah's Sacrifice, Edward's Wrath and Leonardo's Cancel actually make sense if you pass them around smartly ... It's just different...many Laguz start to shine where you wouldn't expect them and you'll be actually thankful for Ranulf and the Hawks to join.

You'll also see why a simple chapter like 1-1 has absolutley amazing desing. Many details about the map design or the enemy placement become more obvious in HM than in any other mode. Even if you don't like the game you should have played HM to judge upon it like that (I also don't think it's a very good game).

It's still not very difficult, I admit (except part1).

To get on topic: Dark Magic is obviously the worst kind of weapon even though it's not overly bad. This game has pretty good weapon balance, possibly the best in the series.

[dondon151]

FE10 gave me enough BEXP to get --/12 Nolan, Zihark, and Jill to --/20. And Nephenee's far better than "just garbage" unless your rhetoric has been polluted by smash fanatic.

[_____]

Rrrr...perhaps I'm just nerdraeging. I just cannot understand how anyone could like RD, it mystifies me. Maybe I'm just curious as to if I'm missing something. I could be missing what makes this game enjoyable.

You are. Most of the stuff Reikken said, you agreed with. What I don't understand is where all of this FE10 hate came from. I've seen quite a large number of people say that they hate it, but for no reason.

[Yojinbo]

FE10 gave me enough BEXP to get --/12 Nolan, Zihark, and Jill to --/20. And Nephenee's far better than "just garbage" unless your rhetoric has been polluted by smash fanatic.

Hard mode, son. Hard mode.

[A2ZOMG]

To get on topic: Dark Magic is obviously the worst kind of weapon even though it's not overly bad. This game has pretty good weapon balance, possibly the best in the series.

Why is it obviously the worst type of weapon? Flux and Nosferatu have the same accuracy as an Iron Lance, but without the wt issues. And then they have more mt, are ranged, and have other useful goodies like Nosferatu's HP return.

The only real disadvantages I see to Dark magic are the cost and just because you don't get any spectacularly good Dark users. If Ray had a bit more spd on join time (where's that HM bonus? <_<), he would easily be an amazing unit.

As I was saying, Lances overall are the least useful statistically. Without character bias. They have significant accuracy issues on everything and are outclassed by axes in most situations. You can especially see their problems on your Knights, who are easily the worst combat units in this game. Basically, Lances only do anything worthwhile on units that are inherently good.

Edited June 27, 2009 by A2ZOMG

[grandjackal]

The only real disadvantages I see to Dark magic are the cost and just because you don't get any spectacularly good Dark users. If Ray had a bit more spd on join time (where's that HM bonus? <_<), he would easily be an amazing unit.

Niime's not actually that bad, just joins a tad late.

[Shadow Mir]

As I was saying, Lances overall are the least useful statistically. Without character bias. They have significant accuracy issues on everything and are outclassed by axes in most situations. You can especially see their problems on your Knights, who are easily the worst combat units in this game. Basically, Lances only do anything worthwhile on units that are inherently good.

And the axes you seem to hold in very high regard have ass-bad accuracy in general. The Swordreaver, Killer Axe, and Iron Axe are the only axes to even scrape together 60% Hit. Everything else has less than that. Blech. What point is there in having huge attack if you can't even land the blows?

[Roxas]

I'm not that much of an Axe user fan. Meh. They weigh too much, have low hit, and users usually have low skill. =_=

[dondon151]

Hard mode, son. Hard mode.

This was HM. If you think the game doesn't give you any BEXP to use, you're not good enough.

[A2ZOMG]

And the axes you seem to hold in very high regard have ass-bad accuracy in general. The Swordreaver, Killer Axe, and Iron Axe are the only axes to even scrape together 60% Hit. Everything else has less than that. Blech. What point is there in having huge attack if you can't even land the blows?

Axes have more hit than Lances most of the time. The most common enemies in this game wield axes and lances. Do the math. Against an axe, it is 65 base hit vs 60 hit. Against a lance, it is 75 hit vs 70 hit. And then, keep in mind that they're also doing 2 more base damage per hit in these examples.

So yes, lances have wta against the less common sword user, but they still don't have very good accuracy. In fact, swords have more accuracy on swords than lances do. Which basically means that lances are always struggling to be optimal at anything.

I agree axes are mediocre in this game, but they outclass lances in most situations regardless.

Edited June 27, 2009 by A2ZOMG

[Yojinbo]

Why is it obviously the worst type of weapon? Flux and Nosferatu have the same accuracy as an Iron Lance, but without the wt issues. And then they have more mt, are ranged, and have other useful goodies like Nosferatu's HP return.

The problem is that a weapon isn't only depending on its properties but also on it's users. Overall Dark Magic has no really good user and it also has the shortest "availability" of the weapon types ... Light magic might actually be worse though now that I think of it...

This was HM. If you think the game doesn't give you any BEXP to use, you're not good enough.

You're missing the point. I'm just saying that HM doesn't nearly allow cap-ramming to the same extent as NM. BExp in NM can literally fix everything. In HM you can't.

[A2ZOMG]

The problem is that a weapon isn't only depending on its properties but also on it's users. Overall Dark Magic has no really good user and it also has the shortest "availability" of the weapon types ... Light magic might actually be worse though now that I think of it...

Quite frankly, you haven't read this topic carefully at all.

And light magic is more available than dark just saying. With Ellen and Saul being easy units to raise, promoting either one of them isn't hard.

Dark magic is fine in this game. While none of its users are amazing, they're not hard to apply to your team either since they have the general advantages of range and decent accuracy and hitting res. Nosferatu is also cool, and so is getting wta on the most common enemy magic type when it happens.

If you really need to see why lances suck in this game...try raising a Knight. Lances more or less cannot function in this game if you don't have very good stats. Other weapon types don't have this same extreme demand...well...axes come pretty close, but are better off than lances since they're more advantageous against more common weapon types.

Edited June 27, 2009 by A2ZOMG

[Mekkah]

If you really need to see why lances suck in this game...try raising a Knight

What a bad example. The Knights are bad because their Spd and movement are bad, and those are pretty much the two best stats in the game.

[Yojinbo]

Quite frankly, you haven't read this topic carefully at all.

And light magic is more available than dark just saying. With Ellen and Saul being easy units to raise, promoting either one of them isn't hard.

Dark magic is fine in this game. While none of its users are amazing, they're not hard to apply to your team either since they have the general advantages of range and decent accuracy and hitting res. Nosferatu is also cool, and so is getting wta on the most common enemy magic type when it happens.

If you really need to see why lances suck in this game...try raising a Knight. Lances simply cannot function at all if you don't have very good stats.

I have read the whole topic and I also know that Light magic is longer available than Dark Magic.

The point is: Some Lance users do have really good stats. You have Alan and Lance, Percival and Miledy ... that's 4 of the best HM units right there and if you count the early game contributions of Marcus and even Zealot you can't really say that Lances suck, even if they possibly have the worst properties.

The units, who use Lances are among the very best in the game and 2 (or 3 if you count Marcus) are there from the very beginning.

So my point still stands: Availability and the users are just as important as the weapon itself. And that's why Lances aren't the worst weapon type and why either Dark or Light Magic are worst (imo)

[A2ZOMG]

What a bad example. The Knights are bad because their Spd and movement are bad, and those are pretty much the two best stats in the game.

Oh yeah, if Javelins had at least 75 hit, they'd have something that resembles useability.

Marcus doesn't like using lances unless he's purposefully not trying to oneround soldiers. Your cavs are forced to use lances just because they don't have axes and once they promote it's pretty much "screw lances" and then you're still having iffy times where using a sword to finish a lance user is more accurate, and because you really want to build that weapon level so you can wield Steel Swords. Percival definitely doesn't want to use lances much at all. Miledy is more or less stuck to lances so oh well for her. Zealot also is rarely if ever using lances unless he's trying to play Jeigan.

So basically the only times where lances can claim to be the best option is when your cav thinks they can oneround another lance user by trading accuracy for damage, or if they think that extra damage will make a 2rko on a merc easier. And as you train Lot and recruit more axe users, and especially after you promote Deak and then finally your other cavs, the former keeps becoming an increasingly inferior option, while the latter always struggles to compete with swords.

Anyone with range automatically can add a layer of depth to your defensive game. Since they don't take counters, this is an automatic strategic advantage for you and your team. Sure, there are obviously tier gaps between your ranged users, but the ones that wield magic and bows all share the advantages of decent hit, and never getting in the way, and being excellent support partners for 1 range units. This makes Bows and Magic clearly a lot more useful than lances, so often, your team is actually better balanced by adding a ranged user in place of another generic lance user regardless of their placement on tiers. You're short on accurate ranged users anyway since Javelins and Handaxes are lol.

Edited June 27, 2009 by A2ZOMG

[Shadow Mir]

Oh yeah, if Javelins had at least 75 hit, they'd have something that resembles useability.

Marcus doesn't like using lances unless he's purposefully not trying to oneround soldiers. Your cavs are forced to use lances just because they don't have axes and once they promote it's pretty much "screw lances" and then you're still having iffy times where using a sword to finish a lance user is more accurate, and because you really want to build that weapon level so you can wield Steel Swords. Percival definitely doesn't want to use lances much at all. Miledy is more or less stuck to lances so oh well for her. Zealot also is rarely if ever using lances unless he's trying to play Jeigan.

So basically the only times where lances can claim to be the best option is when your cav thinks they can oneround another lance user by trading accuracy for damage, or if they think that extra damage will make a 2rko on a merc easier. And as you train Lot and recruit more axe users, and especially after you promote Deak and then finally your other cavs, the former keeps becoming an increasingly inferior option, while the latter always struggles to compete with swords.

Anyone with range automatically can add a layer of depth to your defensive game. Since they don't take counters, this is an automatic strategic advantage for you and your team. Sure, there are obviously tier gaps between your ranged users, but the ones that wield magic and bows all share the advantages of decent hit, and never getting in the way, and being excellent support partners for 1 range units. This makes Bows and Magic clearly a lot more useful than lances, so often, your team is actually better balanced by adding a ranged user in place of another generic lance user regardless of their placement on tiers. You're short on accurate ranged users anyway since Javelins and Handaxes are lol.

What what WHAT? Do I detect hypocrisy? I can say the same for hand axes as well. And the Light Brand you tried to hype earlier in the topic? There's only one until Chapter 23, and I'd say that Light Brands would be obsolete by then. After that one Light Brand breaks, it's back to counter-ville for your sword users. Not to mention having no answer to ranged attacks. Also, since you seem to think swords are OMGAWESUM:

Yeah, swords look awesome...That is, until you try to take one to one of these, miss because you're using a sword against a lance with the wyvern going "Can't touch this!" followed by "EAT MY SILVER LANCE!" And since swords have no ranged options, that'll likely be the case. Who'd want to take a hit from one of those?! I'd rather try to hit one with a Javelin, because trying to use a sword against them means you're asking for trouble.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Jonathan Aulin

[General Spoon]

What what WHAT? Do I detect hypocrisy? I can say the same for hand axes as well. And the Light Brand you tried to hype earlier in the topic? There's only one until Chapter 23, and I'd say that Light Brands would be obsolete by then. After that one Light Brand breaks, it's back to counter-ville for your sword users. Not to mention having no answer to ranged attacks. Also, since you seem to think swords are OMGAWESUM:

Yeah, swords look awesome...That is, until you try to take one to one of these, miss because you're using a sword against a lance with the wyvern going "Can't touch this!" followed by "EAT MY SILVER LANCE!" And since swords have no ranged options, that'll likely be the case. Who'd want to take a hit from one of those?! I'd rather try to hit one with a Javelin, because trying to use a sword against them means you're asking for trouble.

Well, it kinda depends on which sword user you have go after it, and with what weapon. Rutger could whip out a Wrymslayer if he felt like it. Dieck could do the same thing, or he could just a nifty axe.

Those wyvern lords are bitches...and there are quite a few of them flying around too. Chapter 21, I believe that guy's from.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Miror B.

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, swords look awesome...That is, until you try to take one to one of these, miss because you're using a sword against a lance with the wyvern going "Can't touch this!" followed by "EAT MY SILVER LANCE!" And since swords have no ranged options, that'll likely be the case. Who'd want to take a hit from one of those?! I'd rather try to hit one with a Javelin, because trying to use a sword against them means you're asking for trouble.

Then I'm going to remind you, that's a fail idea since handaxes > javelins (2 more damage, 5 more hit, 8-10 more evade). Then there is other stuff like the Wyvernslayer which lets you kill Wyverns really fast.

Which all goes to reinforce my point that lances almost never have any "real" practical use. If Javelins started being very reliably accurate against those mercs that exist, then I would think otherwise, but no, they don't have that luxury, meaning you're probably sticking to Bows or magic whenever you need to not take a counter vs those.

Edited June 27, 2009 by A2ZOMG

[dondon151]

Cavaliers are locked to lances as are FKs and WLs. After promotion, paladins use lances and axes exclusively. Lances are far from being outclassed when you consider that enemy mercenaries are still rather abundant and axes are downright terrible against them.

Wyrmslayer is basically designed to give your units an edge on mamkutes and Narshen. Between mamkute slaying and boss killing, there's very few uses to waste on generic WKs.

You're missing the point. I'm just saying that HM doesn't nearly allow cap-ramming to the same extent as NM. BExp in NM can literally fix everything. In HM you can't.

No you didn't. You said there was no cap-ramming on HM, which I contested and you seemed to agree with. There is plenty of BEXP in FE10 HM to fix problem stats on decent units.

Edited June 27, 2009 by dondon151

[Shadow Mir]

Then I'm going to remind you, that's a fail idea since handaxes > javelins (2 more damage, 5 more hit, 8-10 more evade). Then there is other stuff like the Wyvernslayer which lets you kill Wyverns really fast.

Which all goes to reinforce my point that lances almost never have any "real" practical use. If Javelins started being very reliably accurate against those mercs that exist, then I would think otherwise, but no, they don't have that luxury, meaning you're probably sticking to Bows or magic whenever you need to not take a counter vs those.

Still doesn't fail as much as using a sword against them. And Wyrmslayers? 15 uses ftl. And there are only two of them in the whole game. Not to mention the issue of still facing WTD.

[General Spoon]

Wyrmslayer is basically designed to give your units an edge on mamkutes and Narshen. Between mamkute slaying and boss killing, there's very few uses to waste on generic WKs.

Why would you waste wyrmslayer on generic wyvern knights? It could be used on generic wyvern lords instead.

[Shadow Mir]

Why would you waste wyrmslayer on generic wyvern knights? It could be used on generic wyvern lords instead.

Considering that WLs and WKs often spawn together...

[General Spoon]

Considering that WLs and WKs often spawn together...

I don't see where you're going with this.

[Shadow Mir]

I don't see where you're going with this.

If you ask me, it's pretty obvious. Wyvern Lords are oftentimes accompanied by Wyvern Riders. If I'm in range of the Wyvern Lord, I'm more likely than not in range of at least one of the Wyvern Riders.

[General Spoon]

If you ask me, it's pretty obvious. Wyvern Lords are oftentimes accompanied by Wyvern Riders. If I'm in range of the Wyvern Lord, I'm more likely than not in range of at least one of the Wyvern Riders.

I'd say that the Wyvern Lord would be the target of opertunity for our Wrymslay-guy. Not the Wyvern Riders.