Question about the Christian God

[Charpig]

Do I believe that humans are inherently evil? The short answer is yes, but let me give an explanation.

God created man in his own image, so at the beginning man was not evil. Everything in God's creation was good. But when man sinned, human nature became corrupted. Do you ever have to teach a child how to be selfish? No, you always have to teach a child how to share. Do I believe that everything about man is evil? No. Obviously, non-believers are capable of good deeds. Jesus pointed out that even evil fathers know how to give good gifts to their children. But usually people think selfishly, and they are more inclined to disobey God rather than obey God. The entire history of Israel in the Old Testament proves this. The people had to be taught to obey God, they did not have to be taught how to disobey God. (God considers disobedience to be evil, I thought I would say that since you consider evil to be subjective.)

While mankind was evil, God still desired to reconcile his people to him. That's what Jesus Christ was for. Christ died for people while they were still sinners. So he showed love for man even though man was evil. But God's plan isn't to leave believers in their sinful nature for all eternity. 1 Corinthians 15:35-57 explains that believers will eventually be resurrected with imperishable bodies that aren't corrupted by sin. God does love sinners, but he does not want them to remain sinners. If God forgave you of sin, would he want you to keep sinning? By no means! If you forgive someone for offending you, do you want him to offend you again? I wouldn't think so. God does not desire anything that is evil. If he did, he would not have needed to make any sort of atonement, and he would not want people to stop sinning.

Now, I perfectly understand if you do not believe in Christ, believing in Christ is a matter of free will just as choosing good over evil deeds. Much of the New Testament was written for people who already were saved (the four Gospels were written for people to learn about Jesus, so they could get saved). If you haven't accepted Christ and don't understand him, then you probably consider what I am saying to be "retarded." I do not understand how I am "missing the point" of your arguments, I am trying to explain from the Christian Bible what the Christian God is about. Yes, God does allow suffering and evil in this world, but he did not cause it. He isn't planning to let it go on forever, either. The New Testament view was to focus on the return of Christ rather than the present sufferings in the world.

[Phoenix Wright]

Do I believe that humans are inherently evil? The short answer is yes, but let me give an explanation.

God created man in his own image, so at the beginning man was not evil. Everything in God's creation was good. But when man sinned, human nature became corrupted. Do you ever have to teach a child how to be selfish? No, you always have to teach a child how to share. Do I believe that everything about man is evil? No. Obviously, non-believers are capable of good deeds. Jesus pointed out that even evil fathers know how to give good gifts to their children. But usually people think selfishly, and they are more inclined to disobey God rather than obey God. The entire history of Israel in the Old Testament proves this. The people had to be taught to obey God, they did not have to be taught how to disobey God. (God considers disobedience to be evil, I thought I would say that since you consider evil to be subjective.)

While mankind was evil, God still desired to reconcile his people to him. That's what Jesus Christ was for. Christ died for people while they were still sinners. So he showed love for man even though man was evil. But God's plan isn't to leave believers in their sinful nature for all eternity. 1 Corinthians 15:35-57 explains that believers will eventually be resurrected with imperishable bodies that aren't corrupted by sin. God does love sinners, but he does not want them to remain sinners. If God forgave you of sin, would he want you to keep sinning? By no means! If you forgive someone for offending you, do you want him to offend you again? I wouldn't think so. God does not desire anything that is evil. If he did, he would not have needed to make any sort of atonement, and he would not want people to stop sinning.

Now, I perfectly understand if you do not believe in Christ, believing in Christ is a matter of free will just as choosing good over evil deeds. Much of the New Testament was written for people who already were saved (the four Gospels were written for people to learn about Jesus, so they could get saved). If you haven't accepted Christ and don't understand him, then you probably consider what I am saying to be "retarded." I do not understand how I am "missing the point" of your arguments, I am trying to explain from the Christian Bible what the Christian God is about. Yes, God does allow suffering and evil in this world, but he did not cause it. He isn't planning to let it go on forever, either. The New Testament view was to focus on the return of Christ rather than the present sufferings in the world.

As I have said, and you have failed to respond to, God is the cause of everything in this world. According to you, a Christian, God is all-powerful and is the alpha and the omega. The beginning and the end. Why then, do you insist on saying that when something happens, it is not up to God if it happens or not?

Who cares if I am "not in touch" with Christ or that I think the method used to atone for our sins is retarded? It doesn't matter. I ask for a completely LOGICAL explanation from you.

We were born perfect. Evil cannot taint perfection by definition. Therefore, we are still perfect. Even today.

[Esau of Isaac]

God could have stopped Adam from eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (that is how sin entered the world). Sin came into the world through Adam, but God didn't want it brought in. It was not God who let sin in but Adam. It would have been more accurate for me to say, "God isn't responsible for evil in the world, it entered through Adam." As far as God being all powerful, he may simply choose not to use his powers in a certain situation. I can't tell you why God put that tree in Eden or why he didn't stop Adam. I only know that God allowed Adam free will, and we all know what Adam did with that free will. Man with his free will has often chosen evil, so that's why evil persists in this world. It's not fair to blame God for what man has done.

I as a parent place my five-year-old child into a padded room, and tell him I am leaving for awhile. I then point at a big red shiny button I just had installed in the wall. It's easily within his reach, and has the words "PRESS ME" emblazoned on it. I stand after dropping him off in front of it and then point at it and say, "Whatever you do, don't press that button. You'll die if you do." The child isn't aware that if and when he presses the button, a hundred million volts of electricity are going to pass through his body. I turn on a heel and leave the room.

I return a half hour later, of course finding him dead. Whose fault is it that the child died? His? Or mine, the one who knew exactly what would happen the entire time?

You wish to know why God wants us to love him? Well, if you loved someone, wouldn't you want your love to be returned? If you created something, wouldn't you feel some attachment towards it? Though the Bible does not say why, it does say that God so loved the world that he would give his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16). If God loves us enough that he would not withhold his only Son from us, how could he not want love in return? God would not go to such great lengths if he were not seeking something. Would you pour your heart and soul into something if you were seeking nothing from it? I would not say that God NEEDS our love, but he definitely desires it.

If he desires it, then why is he wasting time by trying to get it through fear-mongering and occasional slaughter? Why not just snap his fingers and utilize his power to have everyone love him instantaneously?

Sometimes, God may allow suffering (which is not necessarily evil) as a way to discipline his people. Job 33:19 "Or a man may be chastened (purified) on a bed of pain with constant distress in his bones...." The New Testament apostles considered their suffering nothing compared to the promise of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:18). So while this present world might have evil and suffering, the next world won't (at least not for believers). In the case of Job, the interesting thing is that God never explained to Job why he allowed him to suffer. But Job was restored at the end. The key here for believers is to look forward to God's kingdom, which won't have evil or suffering. There might be evil in the world now, but God isn't going to let it continue forever.

No, he'll conveniently give all of the great world he is constructing to his trusted believers that properly give him worship. I liked that skirting around the subject you were doing relative to the fate of those who don't place faith in your God.

No, it makes no sense that Jesus, who had no sin, would take the punishment for the entire world's sin. It doesn't make any sense for the innocent man to take the guilty man's punishment. But that's exactly what God did. Romans 3:21-31 explains why God sent Jesus to die on the cross, and what the reward will be for those who have faith in Jesus. God, in order to carry out justice, couldn't simply leave sin unpunished. But he didn't want to destroy all of mankind because he loved his creation (remember John 3:16). By dying on the cross, Jesus satisfied God's demand for justice, so now God could forgive sin. Does this make sense? It won't to everyone. But this is what Scripture teaches, and it is what I believe in. Man freely chose to do evil. Whether or not God allowed the choice is irrelevant to the fact that man chose evil rather than good.

It doesn't make sense period. Rather than forgiving man's sins, God decided to have himself killed to do so? I'm sorry, where's the line of logic you were trying to rebut with, here?

[Charpig]

As I have said, and you have failed to respond to, God is the cause of everything in this world. According to you, a Christian, God is all-powerful and is the alpha and the omega. The beginning and the end. Why then, do you insist on saying that when something happens, it is not up to God if it happens or not?

Who cares if I am "not in touch" with Christ or that I think the method used to atone for our sins is retarded? It doesn't matter. I ask for a completely LOGICAL explanation from you.

We were born perfect. Evil cannot taint perfection by definition. Therefore, we are still perfect. Even today.

If you believe that God caused your actions, does that mean you are no longer responsible for your actions? God created this world, he created man, and he allowed man to choose. But God did not cause any of the decisions that man made. Do you think that God is causing us to have this argument about him? That would make absolutely no sense.

You want a completely LOGICAL explanation of Christ. I do not think I can give you one that satisfies your demands for logic. But, if you pay close attention to the New Testament writings, Paul uses LOGICAL explanations to talk about Christ. Christ was being logical when he used parables to illustrate his kingdom. The Bible has a lot more logic than you might think. I already explained to you why Jesus had to die, but if I cannot convince you, it is better to read the Bible itself and see if you do not find what you are looking for. I was convicted through the Word. However, the Bible itself teaches that faith in Christ, not logic, is what saves us. Faith is not about logic, not in the strictest sense. It is about being sure of what we hope for, what we cannot see (Hebrews 11:1). Don't discount the Bible until you have examined it for yourself.

How do you claim to be perfect? If you have ever told a lie, taken the name of God in vain, stolen anything, slandered anyone, hated anyone, or sinned in any other way, that means that you are not perfect. If you have ever made a mathematical, grammatical, speaking, logical, or cooking error (though these errors are not necessarily sinful), that also means that you are not perfect. We can get sick and die, that also indicates that we are not perfect.

[volkethereaper]

My view of the Judeo-Christian Deity is influenced by the idea that it is the ruler of all things, including both good and evil. This is different from many Christian beliefs, I know, but it's not too far off from some Jewish beliefs, or so my Jewish friends tell me. And, since it was their God in the first place, I tend to be more open to their interpretations. I don't pretend to know all that much about Hebrew theology, but my friends, and one rather intelligent one in particular, have talked about this interpretation. Btw: The God of the old testament doesn't seem all that benevolent anyway. Jealousy, favoritism, and anger are all attributes it seems to possess.

Edited August 11, 2010 by volkethereaper

[Charpig]

I as a parent place my five-year-old child into a padded room, and tell him I am leaving for awhile. I then point at a big red shiny button I just had installed in the wall. It's easily within his reach, and has the words "PRESS ME" emblazoned on it. I stand after dropping him off in front of it and then point at it and say, "Whatever you do, don't press that button. You'll die if you do." The child isn't aware that if and when he presses the button, a hundred million volts of electricity are going to pass through his body. I turn on a heel and leave the room.

I return a half hour later, of course finding him dead. Whose fault is it that the child died? His? Or mine, the one who knew exactly what would happen the entire time?

If he desires it, then why is he wasting time by trying to get it through fear-mongering and occasional slaughter? Why not just snap his fingers and utilize his power to have everyone love him instantaneously?

No, he'll conveniently give all of the great world he is constructing to his trusted believers that properly give him worship. I liked that skirting around the subject you were doing relative to the fate of those who don't place faith in your God.

It doesn't make sense period. Rather than forgiving man's sins, God decided to have himself killed to do so? I'm sorry, where's the line of logic you were trying to rebut with, here?

Adam and Eve were not children, they were created as adults. They were capable of making a conscious decision, unlike the five year old child in your example.

Jesus NEVER instructed his followers to fear monger or slaughter people. Instead they were commanded to have love for each other and pray for their enemies. Show me a passage where Jesus commanded his disciples to kill people. The New Testament church was not in any way established by physical force. Wasn't Peter rebuked rather than applauded for cutting off the ear of Malchus? Regarding Old Testament, Israel was frequently threatened by enemies, and there were pagan influences such as child sacrifice and sexual immorality. It's not like Israel's enemies were gentle little lambs that were mindlessly slaughtered for no reason. There are times when it is necessary to defend one's self. But under the New Covenant, we are not instructed to seek vengeance on our enemies. We are instructed to love them and pray for them. (I do believe there is a legitimate place for self defense, please don't respond with absurd examples.) About the "snapping" of fingers, that isn't real love. You can program a computer to give you an "I love you" message but the computer doesn't really love you, it's just doing what it was programmed to do. God judges the heart, and he knows the difference. Can any person make you love him/her? Could it ever be real love? God would be much more pleased with people that freely choose to love God, not because God makes them love him.

If someone refuses to accept Christ, that means that he is not forgiven of his sins, and God will judge him accordingly. Now, I imagine that most of you are familiar with the doctrine that hell goes on forever and ever. But, it may not be so. Revelation 20:10 says that the wicked will be tormented day and night forever and ever. But, in the Greek, the word used there can mean "as long as a person lives." So the unbelievers burn up in the lake of fire, they don't keep suffering (this is what Seventh Day Adventists in particular believe, to give an example of one denomination that believes this). Although believers are given new and imperishable bodies, there is nowhere in the Bible where unbelievers are given new and imperishable bodies. Their old bodies would burn up in the lake of fire, thus the torment would not be eternal. I am hoping that this option is what will really happen, that would be much more merciful and just than tormenting enemies for eternity. Even better, I am hoping that people will come to Christ and not face that torment. Either way, I know enough of hell that I don't want any part of it.

Regarding the death of Christ: Did I not say that Christ was killed to satisfy the demands of God's justice? The Old Testament teaching was that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. If you want to examine how the Old Testament sacrifices pointed to Christ, I highly recommend "Altar Call" by Roy Gane. The biblical book of Hebrews is also very good. I can explain the basics here. The main reason why the Israelites carried out sacrifices was that it was in atonement of sin. The sacrifices took the place of the people who committed the sins (so the people didn't have to die). In the same way, Christ took the place for all of us. Why would God need to do this in order to forgive us? Romans 3:25 says that God did this in order to demonstrate his justice. He couldn't simply let us off the hook without some sort of punishment (remember, mankind chose evil, they weren't dragged into it kicking and screaming). But Jesus was willing to bear that punishment for us, so God was satisfied. Keep in mind that he took the punishment for all the sins of the world.

[Phoenix Wright]

If you believe that God caused your actions, does that mean you are no longer responsible for your actions? God created this world, he created man, and he allowed man to choose. But God did not cause any of the decisions that man made. Do you think that God is causing us to have this argument about him? That would make absolutely no sense.

That's exactly my point. No matter what YOU say, none of God's "methods" make any fucking sense whatsoever. Which is just one reason why people reject the existence of a God.

You want a completely LOGICAL explanation of Christ. I do not think I can give you one that satisfies your demands for logic. But, if you pay close attention to the New Testament writings, Paul uses LOGICAL explanations to talk about Christ. Christ was being logical when he used parables to illustrate his kingdom. The Bible has a lot more logic than you might think. I already explained to you why Jesus had to die, but if I cannot convince you, it is better to read the Bible itself and see if you do not find what you are looking for. I was convicted through the Word. However, the Bible itself teaches that faith in Christ, not logic, is what saves us. Faith is not about logic, not in the strictest sense. It is about being sure of what we hope for, what we cannot see (Hebrews 11:1). Don't discount the Bible until you have examined it for yourself.

Ya see, that's my issue. Blind faith. "Don't think just do!" What kind of God doesn't make itself LOGICAL. Only by FAITH can one exist? Only by BLIND FAITH?

Jesus, God could have made it logical for itself to exist while also making faith a major component. But guess what: that didn't happen. By blind faith alone you believe in God.

How do you claim to be perfect? If you have ever told a lie, taken the name of God in vain, stolen anything, slandered anyone, hated anyone, or sinned in any other way, that means that you are not perfect. If you have ever made a mathematical, grammatical, speaking, logical, or cooking error (though these errors are not necessarily sinful), that also means that you are not perfect. We can get sick and die, that also indicates that we are not perfect.

That's just the thing. I'm perfect. Nothing I do can make me imperfect. Perfection is just that awesome. If God can order the genocide of a certain people and still be perfect by human definition, then so can I. I can say "it was all apart of my plan dudes, so just chill out." Edited August 11, 2010 by MGS: Metal Gear Solid

[Esau of Isaac]

Adam and Eve were not children, they were created as adults. They were capable of making a conscious decision, unlike the five year old child in your example.

They were incapable of distinguishing between good and evil. That's what they gained from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

They were the exact same as children.

Jesus NEVER instructed his followers to fear monger or slaughter people. Instead they were commanded to have love for each other and pray for their enemies. Show me a passage where Jesus commanded his disciples to kill people. The New Testament church was not in any way established by physical force. Wasn't Peter rebuked rather than applauded for cutting off the ear of Malchus? Regarding Old Testament, Israel was frequently threatened by enemies, and there were pagan influences such as child sacrifice and sexual immorality. It's not like Israel's enemies were gentle little lambs that were mindlessly slaughtered for no reason. There are times when it is necessary to defend one's self. But under the New Covenant, we are not instructed to seek vengeance on our enemies. We are instructed to love them and pray for them. (I do believe there is a legitimate place for self defense, please don't respond with absurd examples.) About the "snapping" of fingers, that isn't real love. You can program a computer to give you an "I love you" message but the computer doesn't really love you, it's just doing what it was programmed to do. God judges the heart, and he knows the difference.

God has on numerous occasions in the Bible made violent movements towards non-believers.

Can any person make you love him/her? Could it ever be real love? God would be much more pleased with people that freely choose to love God, not because God makes them love him.

Yeah, a person named God could. Because he's omnipotent.

If someone refuses to accept Christ, that means that he is not forgiven of his sins, and God will judge him accordingly.

And they will all unfailingly not reach Heaven. Good for them.

Regarding the death of Christ: Did I not say that Christ was killed to satisfy the demands of God's justice?

What you're not getting is that the means by which he did it is fucking dumb. Who sends themselves to die for a people in order to forgive them?

Where is the logic in that?

[HongLei]

Adam and Eve were not children, they were created as adults. They were capable of making a conscious decision, unlike the five year old child in your example.

[/quote name=Charpig' date='10 August 2010 - 11:04 PM' timestamp='1281503077' post='1193795]

umm actually the example fits better than u think. They were still in a state of innocence they had no worldly experience the garden provided for them they kinda were like little kids. Satan tempted eve think about it this way she had never been tempted before and the fruit looked good and wasn't guarded by cherubims like the other tree, the tree of life, that seems to be overlooked, why would God leave a tree they weren't commanded not to eat guarded by the other unguarded? They needed to partake of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil in order to keep God's other commandment to have kids

God has on numerous occasions in the Bible made violent movements towards non-believers.

this is because he would rather have one wicked man perish than a nation in unbelief and wickedness (1 Nephi 4:13 I am Mormon so I will use teachings we have to help)

[

quote]Can any person make you love him/her? Could it ever be real love? God would be much more pleased with people that freely choose to love God, not because God makes them love him.

Yeah, a person named God could. Because he's omnipotent.

can He yes. Will He no. That would make Him just like Satan. When Lucifer fell and became satan that is because we Mormons believe that both Jehovah and Lucifer both presented plans to the Father. Lucifers plan was that all would return to back to Gods presence and we couldn't choose for ourselves and He would receive the glory. Jehovahs plan was that we would all come here and prove to our Father that we are worthy to become like Him and we would have the freedom to choose whether to follow Him or not to follow Him

And they will all unfailingly not reach Heaven. Good for them.

The bible says there are 3 degrees or levels of glory 1 Cor: 15:40-42

we believe that the Heaven that is great and wonderful is the celestial glory for those who follow our Savior and accept Him. The terrestrial glory is like that of the Earth this is where all the good people who didn't accept the Savior go. Telestrial is the third glory that is the lowest of the three glories one of our prophets said that this glory is good enough that some may commit suicide to get there ... ya it's that good and it's the worst of the three.

Regarding the death of Christ: Did I not say that Christ was killed to satisfy the demands of God's justice?

What you're not getting is that the means by which he did it is dumb. Who sends themselves to die for a people in order to forgive them?

Where is the logic in that?

yes Jesus died for us to satisfy the demands of Justice. Why? Because he loves us and mercy alone cannot satisfy the laws of justice. Would you take a bullet for one of your friends or your siblings? Jesus is our friend and older brother He loves us all so much that is why he died for us

Edited August 11, 2010 by HongLei

[Esau of Isaac]

can He yes. Will He no. That would make Him just like Satan. When Lucifer fell and became satan that is because we Mormons believe that both Jehovah and Lucifer both presented plans to the Father. Lucifers plan was that all would return to back to Gods presence and we couldn't choose for ourselves and He would receive the glory. Jehovahs plan was that we would all come here and prove to our Father that we are worthy to become like Him and we would have the freedom to choose whether to follow Him or not to follow Him

Great for Mormons. Doesn't change the fact that an omnipotent being would have no reason to dither on time constraints.

The bible says there are 3 degrees or levels of glory 1 Cor: 15:40-42

we believe that the Heaven that is great and wonderful is the celestial glory for those who follow our Savior and accept Him. The terrestrial glory is like that of the Earth this is where all the good people who didn't accept the Savior go. Telestrial is the third glory that is the lowest of the three glories one of our prophets said that this glory is good enough that some may commit suicide to get there ... ya it's that good and it's the worst of the three.

Kind of irrelevant to the point that I was making, but I still suppose it's interesting to see the views that other religious standpoints offer.

yes Jesus died for us to satisfy the demands of Justice. Why? Because he loves us and mercy alone cannot satisfy the laws of justice. Would you take a bullet for one of your friends or your siblings? Jesus is our friend and older brother He loves us all so much that is why he died for us

Christ above, neither of you are getting this. Picture for a moment that you are an omnipotent being. Some pissant cultures have done shit you're not too keen on. For some reason that you can't explain, you lack the stones to simply get the fuck over it or actually do something about it without slaughtering everyone, so you try to think of a way by which you can calm down and fix the situation. So after an undoubtedly long period of deliberation, you come to the conclusion that you should kill an incarnation of yourself, by means of execution by these very people. This will allow you to forgive them and by extension the rest of those who have sinned.

...Am I laying it on thick enough yet?

[Charpig]

If you do not understand why Christ died for you, very well. We have told you, and you did not understand. I can see that further argument will be pointless. But let me leave you all with this parable:

Luke 18:9-14

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself : 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men - robbers, evildoers, adulterers - or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

If you claim to be perfect, you will never be justified before God. Forgiveness comes from acknowledgement of sin, not denial of it. If someone offended you, you might find it quite difficult to forgive him if he never admitted his fault.

You think that God is not logical? Read the creation story in Genesis; it proceeded in a logical manner. God didn't create animals without first giving them an earth to stand on. I think it's very logical that if God was willing to forgive us, we should be willing to forgive others (Matthew 18:21-35). That is one such example of God's logic. There is even a verse when God invites his people to come and reason together (Isaiah 1:18). But do you always expect love to be logical? People fall in love with other people, and sometimes we cannot understand why. We may not understand why God would love us or want love from us, that isn't the point. The point is that Jesus was teaching his followers to love one another, because God loved them. We love because God first loved us. I do not see how that statement can be any more logical.

And note this one last point: Our salvation cost Jesus his life, but it didn't cost us anything. That is what grace is. Grace is something that costs the giver but not the recipient. You either accept it or you don't, and believe me, God wants everyone to accept it. But he refuses to force people to accept it, for reasons sufficient to himself. If it doesn't make sense to you, fine, but you're giving up a free gift. God is offering salvation to everyone, not just a select few people. That's why the early church was preaching the gospel to Gentiles (basically everyone not a Jew) and Greeks, when it was originally only preached to Jews.

[Phoenix Wright]

If you do not understand why Christ died for you, very well. We have told you, and you did not understand. I can see that further argument will be pointless. But let me leave you all with this parable:

Stop right there. You think I don't understand WHY Jesus killed himself for us? No no no, I understand. My problem is the method doesn't make any sense. It's an illogical way to solve a problem.

Luke 18:9-14

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself : 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men - robbers, evildoers, adulterers - or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

Ugh, don't give me this. In what way am I being self-righteous? All I am saying is God's methods don't make sense.

If you claim to be perfect, you will never be justified before God. Forgiveness comes from acknowledgement of sin, not denial of it. If someone offended you, you might find it quite difficult to forgive him if he never admitted his fault.

You're missing my point. I'm not claiming to be perfect. I'm claiming God is not perfect. If you think God is perfect, then you MUST think man is perfect, because we came from a perfect being. Nothing can ever taint perfection because everything that perfect being does is perfect. Every "wrong" decision made is the "perfect" decision.

You think that God is not logical? Read the creation story in Genesis; it proceeded in a logical manner. God didn't create animals without first giving them an earth to stand on. I think it's very logical that if God was willing to forgive us, we should be willing to forgive others (Matthew 18:21-35). That is one such example of God's logic. There is even a verse when God invites his people to come and reason together (Isaiah 1:18). But do you always expect love to be logical? People fall in love with other people, and sometimes we cannot understand why. We may not understand why God would love us or want love from us, that isn't the point. The point is that Jesus was teaching his followers to love one another, because God loved them. We love because God first loved us. I do not see how that statement can be any more logical.

Yeah, because the universe being made in seven days is completely logical, right? By that logic, the tigers of our world might as well be able to live in space.

When did I ever say that emotions are logical? You can predict an emotion logically by their separate definitions, but that doesn't mean the prediction will be true (you'll be sad if your dog dies, when in reality you might just be relieved). The emotions of a human being are unpredictable, but predicting an emotion from someone in a certain situation is not.

And note this one last point: Our salvation cost Jesus his life, but it didn't cost us anything. That is what grace is. Grace is something that costs the giver but not the recipient. You either accept it or you don't, and believe me, God wants everyone to accept it. But he refuses to force people to accept it, for reasons sufficient to himself. If it doesn't make sense to you, fine, but you're giving up a free gift. God is offering salvation to everyone, not just a select few people. That's why the early church was preaching the gospel to Gentiles (basically everyone not a Jew) and Greeks, when it was originally only preached to Jews.

In reality it didn't cost him anything. Jesus could rise from the grave, remember? Jesus is supposedly part of God, remember? God cannot harm itself(or can it? Another question to ask yourself...).

[Esau of Isaac]

If you do not understand why Christ died for you, very well. We have told you, and you did not understand. I can see that further argument will be pointless. But let me leave you all with this parable:

I refuse to believe that you are this thick. You must be trolling me right now.

If you claim to be perfect, you will never be justified before God. Forgiveness comes from acknowledgement of sin, not denial of it. If someone offended you, you might find it quite difficult to forgive him if he never admitted his fault.

I wouldn't if I were God. I wouldn't give a fuck, since I were God.

That's forgetting that even as a mortal, I'm man enough to just ignore something that doesn't affect me.

You think that God is not logical? Read the creation story in Genesis; it proceeded in a logical manner. God didn't create animals without first giving them an earth to stand on.

But he created the world without light. That's pretty backwards relative to actual history. I think that deserves some points off.

Well, I mean, the fact that the entire thing is demonstrably false should shave some points off too. But even as a kid, that one in particular I found weird.

I think it's very logical that if God was willing to forgive us, we should be willing to forgive others (Matthew 18:21-35). That is one such example of God's logic. There is even a verse when God invites his people to come and reason together (Isaiah 1:18). But do you always expect love to be logical? People fall in love with other people, and sometimes we cannot understand why. We may not understand why God would love us or want love from us, that isn't the point. The point is that Jesus was teaching his followers to love one another, because God loved them. We love because God first loved us. I do not see how that statement can be any more logical.

Why would he love the very people he sends to the slaughter, or allow the countless millions he supposedly loves to suffer eternally?

Moreover, why would the people that are subject to this love him?

And note this one last point: Our salvation cost Jesus his life, but it didn't cost us anything. That is what grace is. Grace is something that costs the giver but not the recipient. You either accept it or you don't, and believe me, God wants everyone to accept it. But he refuses to force people to accept it, for reasons sufficient to himself. If it doesn't make sense to you, fine, but you're giving up a free gift. God is offering salvation to everyone, not just a select few people. That's why the early church was preaching the gospel to Gentiles (basically everyone not a Jew) and Greeks, when it was originally only preached to Jews.

He can snap his fingers and have everyone love him in a second. And if he's omnipotent, he can do it without forcing them. He could do it in any fashion he desires. Because he's God.

There's no room for interpretation of meaning when someone can do anything they want. If there is evil in a world where a person could fix it however they wish at any point in time, the reason it is there is because they want it there.

[Charpig]

So, you do understand why Jesus died for us, but you are not accepting it because it makes no sense to you. Am I right?

We were born perfect. Evil cannot taint perfection by definition. Therefore, we are still perfect. Even today.

This is why I thought that you were claiming to be perfect. I do not agree that perfection cannot be tainted, however. Jesus's perfection was not tainted because he did not sin. But man's perfection was tainted through sin. Let me give you an example of how perfection can be tainted. If you have a deck of 52 cards, that is a full set or a perfect set, is it not? But if I take one of those cards and destroy them, I no longer have a perfect set of 52 cards. I have just ruined, or tainted, the perfect deck of cards. The deck is no longer perfect, but it was at one time. You see, perfection can be tainted, even by a relatively simple action.

I was not attempting to troll anyone. If I came across that way, I apologize. I thought that you did not understand what Jesus did and why he did it, but apparently I am wrong about that.

[Esau of Isaac]

So, you do understand why Jesus died for us, but you are not accepting it because it makes no sense to you. Am I right?

I'm going to copy and paste an above statement, because it already addresses this.

"Picture for a moment that you are an omnipotent being. Some pissant cultures have done shit you're not too keen on. For some reason that you can't explain, you lack the stones to simply get the fuck over it or actually do something about it without slaughtering everyone, so you try to think of a way by which you can calm down and fix the situation. So after an undoubtedly long period of deliberation, you come to the conclusion that you should kill an incarnation of yourself, by means of execution by these very people. This will allow you to forgive them and by extension the rest of those who have sinned."

How are you finding this a logical maneuver by any intelligent being?

This is why I thought that you were claiming to be perfect. I do not agree that perfection cannot be tainted, however.

Then you don't know what perfect means. Something that is perfect is without any flaw. It can't do anything imperfect precisely because it is perfect. If man were truly made perfect, then eating the apple off the tree of knowledge of good and evil would have been a perfect thing to do.

Let me give you an example of how perfection can be tainted. If you have a deck of 52 cards, that is a full set or a perfect set, is it not?

It is a full set, but not necessarily perfect. Do jokers count? How about unknown cards that no one uses? Is it really safe to say that a deck of 52 cards is perfect? Before you answer, consider what perfect means.

But if I take one of those cards and destroy them, I no longer have a perfect set of 52 cards. I have just ruined, or tainted, the perfect deck of cards. The deck is no longer perfect, but it was at one time. You see, perfection can be tainted, even by a relatively simple action.

Right, by an outside source. Left alone, that deck would not taint itself.

MGS is not saying that perfection cannot be removed, but that a perfect being cannot do imperfect things. You are saying that humans that were perfect did imperfect things (insofar as we are forced to assume that sinning involves imperfect actions). This is impossible by definition of what a perfect being is. You must either accept that humanity did no wrong, or that humanity was never perfect to begin with.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Esau of Isaac

[Phoenix Wright]

So, you do understand why Jesus died for us, but you are not accepting it because it makes no sense to you. Am I right?

Well, I feel that it makes no sense at all. That's beyond what we're talking about though; you are correct.

This is why I thought that you were claiming to be perfect. I do not agree that perfection cannot be tainted, however. Jesus's perfection was not tainted because he did not sin. But man's perfection was tainted through sin. Let me give you an example of how perfection can be tainted. If you have a deck of 52 cards, that is a full set or a perfect set, is it not? But if I take one of those cards and destroy them, I no longer have a perfect set of 52 cards. I have just ruined, or tainted, the perfect deck of cards. The deck is no longer perfect, but it was at one time. You see, perfection can be tainted, even by a relatively simple action.

I was not attempting to troll anyone. If I came across that way, I apologize. I thought that you did not understand what Jesus did and why he did it, but apparently I am wrong about that.

This time, I explained my point poorly.

God is perfect, correct? God created man? We remain perfect as long as God remains perfect because we came from a perfect being. What we do evidently does not matter at all as long as our creator remains perfect. A shortcoming of man is a shortcoming of God. Why? Because God had the power to stop a shortcoming, but didn't. If God is still perfect after a shortcoming, then so are we.

[volkethereaper]

But what if we are perfect? Not, of course, in the sense that we act perfectly or do things perfectly by our own perception, but that God, who works on a plane which is entirely free of time and beyond our earthly morality, considers us perfect? God is an unfathomable thing, perhaps his perfection is very different from ours. Perhaps Jesus was meant to be more of a sign that God knew we were out there, and we just missed the point. Or perhaps a perfect, all powerful being is capable of creating, and would want to be the creator of, imperfect beings. Or, perhaps the Mormons are right. Perhaps God was once the imperfect creation of another God, who was another perfect God's imperfect creation, and so on, who over time became perfect, or complete. These thoughts all came into my head while reading your discussion. I don't know that I believe any of them, but they seemed like they sort of belonged in this topic. Anyway, go ahead and trash them. I'm not going to defend them.

[Crystal Shards]

I can't word it any better than this:

What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible. But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.

What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible. [...]

God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible. [...]

The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man.

No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man. [...]

A God who knows the future is powerless to change it. An omniscient God who is all-powerful and freewilled is impossible. A God who knows everything cannot have emotions. The Bible says that God experiences all of the emotions of humans, including anger, sadness, and happiness. We humans experience emotions as a result of new knowledge. A man who had formerly been ignorant of his wife's infidelity will experience the emotions of anger and sadness only after he has learned what had previously been hidden. In contrast, the omniscient God is ignorant of nothing. Nothing is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no gained knowledge to which he may emotively react. We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing. An omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God who experiences emotion is impossible.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Crystal Shards

[volkethereaper]

Fair enough point, my friend.:)

[Charpig]

Knowing about something is not the same as actually having it happen to you. Did Jesus know he was gonna die on the cross? Absolutely, just like we all know we're gonna die someday. Jesus still felt the physical pain and emotional distress of being rejected by both man and God, even though he knew about it ahead of time. Jesus just hadn't actually experienced it before. You might already know the content of a funny video, but that may not prevent you from still laughing when you see it again. You may be told that a friend is coming over to visit, but that may not prevent you from being happy when you actually see your friend. You may know that your boss is going to yell at you if you mess up, but that won't prevent you from feeling hurt when it actually happens. Just because you know about something in advance doesn't mean it won't affect you in any way when it actually happens. God does have emotion, numerous Bible verses from both Old and New Testament indicate this. Do you believe that a world without emotion would be a perfect world? If you could never experience the emotions of joy and laughter, that is perfection to you? If you can't empathize with a sad friend, you think that is perfection? It certainly isn't to me.

Yes, Jesus was a part of God. He claimed that he and God were one, and that he did everything God told him to do. Jesus was in a mortal body, that could die, just like we are in mortal bodies that can die. We know that Jesus experienced hunger, sadness, anger, joy, pain, and death. So Jesus had to face many of the stuff that we face. Jesus was not immune to the suffering in this world. Fine, I concede that by human definitions of perfection, Jesus was not perfect. But in the eyes's of Jesus's father, God, Jesus was perfect. Hebrews 4:15 "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are - yet was without sin." Jesus is that high priest! Jesus can identify with us in our human weakness. God is not just some being who is "way out there." There is no way in heck he could have sympathized with us had he not experienced trials himself. Could Jesus have avoided the cross and subsequently, his death? Of course! Jesus told Simon Peter that he could have called down legions of angels to come to his aid. But Jesus chose not to. He willingly bore the price for our sin. For a moment, Jesus's perfection was tainted as he bore the sins of the world, so much that God could not even look on his only Son. Yet, when he was resurrected, he was resurrected in glory. Believe me when I say this. Your ideas of the perfect god are not consistent with the Bible's ideas of the Perfect God. You all seem to think that being God means that nothing affects you, ever. But that is NOT what the Bible teaches about the Christian God.

Now, one last point. I don't know if any of you are actually parents (I am not). But if you were a parent, you would have a fair amount of control over your child, wouldn't you? You could physically force your child into doing what you wanted. But, children need to learn how to make good choices for themselves. Even when parents allow their children to make choices, the children still need to be disciplined and be held responsible for wrong choices. If you allowed your child to choose and he made a wrong choice, you would still discipline him or at the very least reprimand him, wouldn't you? In the same way, God allows us to choose. When we make the wrong choices God seeks to correct us somehow. Hebrews 12:1-13 is a good explanation of how God is like human fathers in discipline.

[Crystal Shards]

The Bible is a poor source for an argument, as it's full of contradictions. Exodus 31:17 states that God does tires and needs to rest, yet Isaiah 40:28 clearly states the opposite. Acts 1:24 and Psalms 139: 2 and 3 state that God knows the hearts of men, but Deuteronomy 13:3, Deuteronomy 8:2, and Genesis 22:12 all state that God puts us through hardship to learn what's in our hearts (which also takes away from the claim of omniscience). Exodus 15:3 and Isaiah 51:15 state that God is warlike, yet Romans 15:33 and 1 Corinthians 14:33 state that God is peaceful. Jeremiah 13:14, Deuteronomy 7:16, 1 Samuel 15:2 and 3, and 1 Samuel 6:19 all state that God is cruel and merciless, whereas James 5:11, Lamentations 3:33, 1 Chronicles 16:34, Ezekiel 18:32, Psalms 145:9, 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 John 4:16, and Psalms 25:8 all state that God is kind and merciful. This is only the beginning of the contradictions found in the Bible. You'd think that you'd at least get the guy you're worshiping down pat, you know?

Perfect proof of what I quoted was talking about when it said the following:

The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man.

No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.

Though really, I find it interesting that your only comment was on emotions, which really was the least worrisome of the statements made in that quoted piece.

EDIT: Needed to emphasize something.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Crystal Shards

[Phoenix Wright]

Knowing about something is not the same as actually having it happen to you. Did Jesus know he was gonna die on the cross? Absolutely, just like we all know we're gonna die someday. Jesus still felt the physical pain and emotional distress of being rejected by both man and God, even though he knew about it ahead of time. Jesus just hadn't actually experienced it before. You might already know the content of a funny video, but that may not prevent you from still laughing when you see it again. You may be told that a friend is coming over to visit, but that may not prevent you from being happy when you actually see your friend. You may know that your boss is going to yell at you if you mess up, but that won't prevent you from feeling hurt when it actually happens. Just because you know about something in advance doesn't mean it won't affect you in any way when it actually happens. God does have emotion, numerous Bible verses from both Old and New Testament indicate this. Do you believe that a world without emotion would be a perfect world? If you could never experience the emotions of joy and laughter, that is perfection to you? If you can't empathize with a sad friend, you think that is perfection? It certainly isn't to me.

Because God is only human, right?

Yes, Jesus was a part of God. He claimed that he and God were one, and that he did everything God told him to do. Jesus was in a mortal body, that could die, just like we are in mortal bodies that can die. We know that Jesus experienced hunger, sadness, anger, joy, pain, and death. So Jesus had to face many of the stuff that we face. Jesus was not immune to the suffering in this world. Fine, I concede that by human definitions of perfection, Jesus was not perfect. But in the eyes's of Jesus's father, God, Jesus was perfect. Hebrews 4:15 "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are - yet was without sin." Jesus is that high priest! Jesus can identify with us in our human weakness. God is not just some being who is "way out there." There is no way in heck he could have sympathized with us had he not experienced trials himself. Could Jesus have avoided the cross and subsequently, his death? Of course! Jesus told Simon Peter that he could have called down legions of angels to come to his aid. But Jesus chose not to. He willingly bore the price for our sin. For a moment, Jesus's perfection was tainted as he bore the sins of the world, so much that God could not even look on his only Son. Yet, when he was resurrected, he was resurrected in glory. Believe me when I say this. Your ideas of the perfect god are not consistent with the Bible's ideas of the Perfect God. You all seem to think that being God means that nothing affects you, ever. But that is NOT what the Bible teaches about the Christian God.

What Jesus truly did was keep up the lie that he was in fact God's son. He took his own life for "petty" humans to live, when in reality, God could have forgiven us without his death. His death was unnecessary. It remains there to make the Bible a little more dramatic. If instead he had angels come, it would have been written down into history and we'd all be worshiping God of our own free will. But alas, that of course did not happen either.

You are saying that there was no way for God to sympathize with us unless he made himself human? Uh, what?

Now, one last point. I don't know if any of you are actually parents (I am not). But if you were a parent, you would have a fair amount of control over your child, wouldn't you? You could physically force your child into doing what you wanted. But, children need to learn how to make good choices for themselves. Even when parents allow their children to make choices, the children still need to be disciplined and be held responsible for wrong choices. If you allowed your child to choose and he made a wrong choice, you would still discipline him or at the very least reprimand him, wouldn't you? In the same way, God allows us to choose. When we make the wrong choices God seeks to correct us somehow. Hebrews 12:1-13 is a good explanation of how God is like human fathers in discipline.

Because God's a human, right? I would consider a human-like trait an imperfection, since of course, humans aren't perfect.

[Charpig]

The Bible is a poor source for an argument, as it's full of contradictions. Exodus 31:17 states that God does tires and needs to rest, yet Isaiah 40:28 clearly states the opposite. Acts 1:24 and Psalms 139: 2 and 3 state that God knows the hearts of men, but Deuteronomy 13:3, Deuteronomy 8:2, and Genesis 22:12 all state that God puts us through hardship to learn what's in our hearts (which also takes away from the claim of omniscience). Exodus 15:3 and Isaiah 51:15 state that God is warlike, yet Romans 15:33 and 1 Corinthians 14:33 state that God is peaceful. Jeremiah 13:14, Deuteronomy 7:16, 1 Samuel 15:2 and 3, and 1 Samuel 6:19 all state that God is cruel and merciless, whereas James 5:11, Lamentations 3:33, 1 Chronicles 16:34, Ezekiel 18:32, Psalms 145:9, 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 John 4:16, and Psalms 25:8 all state that God is kind and merciful.

Though really, I find it interesting that your only comment was on emotions, which really was the least worrisome of the statements made in that quoted piece.

I wasn't just responding to you, I was responding to the numerous other posts that claim that God cannot have emotions.

Yes, the Bible seems to have contradictions, but you need to read the passages more carefully.

Exodus 31:17 did not state that God needed to rest. He chose to rest on the seventh day of creation. It's very clear in that passage that God rested on that day in order to establish the Sabbath, which the Israelites were to observe in honor of creation.

Genesis 22:12 was spoken by an angel of God, not by God himself. Abraham not withholding Isaac, his only Son, was a foreshadowing of what would happen with Jesus Christ (though Abraham didn't know it at the time). Abraham did not withhold his only Son, neither did God withhold his only Son. Many of the events in the Old Testament were foreshadowings of what Christ would do. Regarding the Deuteronomy passages, the testing was really for the Israelites to learn what was in their hearts. God was able to predict Israel's rebellion, just as Jesus predicted when Peter would deny him three times. What the Israelites did was recorded, as a testimony, so that people would know and remember what would happen as a result of disobedience, and hopefully their descendants would do right and not do wrong.

When the Bible speaks of God as being strong and mighty, it doesn't mean that God craves battle. The Bible says that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:23). But, it means that God is perfectly capable of exercising his authority. He can and does punish sin, as seen in the Bible. But God would much rather have people repent of their sins and come to him. This is why he doesn't always immediately punish sin, he wants to give sinners a chance to repent. Oftentimes, the Israelites and most people could not have cared less about having a relationship with God, they frequently went their own ways. It wasn't like people were seeking peace with God and God decided to zap them instead. When people obeyed God he blessed them (at the very least, they will be blessed in the next life!).

Regarding Deuteronomy 7:16, God wanted the Israelites to completely destroy their enemies, otherwise the enemies would ensnare the Israelites. Again, Israel's enemies were not harmless little lambs that God wanted killed for no reason. They would have actively sought Israel's destruction. 1 Samuel 15:2,3 was the same deal, the Amalekites would have continued to threaten Israel unless they were wiped out. I find it ironic that many people have complained about God not doing anything about evil, yet when he finally chooses to do something about it, you accuse him of being too harsh. I'm sure the Israelites would have understood why God wanted their enemies wiped out, having suffered abuses at the hands of their enemies.

Regarding 1 Samuel 6:19, God had previously told the people not to look into the ark (in the Mosaic Law), or they would die. The ark had objects that were holy, like God himself. A sinner could not look upon a holy God and live, it was the same deal with the holy objects. I could be wrong, but I consider it more like death was the natural consequence of a sinner looking at a holy God, just like death is the natural consequence of jumping off of the Empire State Building. If I read the passage correctly, only those who looked into the ark died. The best analogy of this is the sun. No one can look directly at the sun without being blinded by its glorious light. The Bible's theology seems to be that no one can look directly upon God without being overcome by his glory. People such as Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Paul were brought face down when God revealed his glory to them (those people I mentioned did not die, however). The parable I posted earlier about the Pharisee and the tax collector shows that God is kind and merciful to those who acknowledge their sin and repent of it.

@MGS: There are occasions in the Bible where God had angels come, but it didn't guarantee that the people followed him afterwards. The fact that Jesus became a human means that he is definitely able to sympathize with our weaknesses. What better way to experience life as a human than to actually become a human? I am saying that God didn't choose to simply look down on us from Heaven. He chose to tabernacle with Israel, and live among his creations for a short time as Jesus Christ. God has sometimes chosen to directly involve himself in human affairs instead of simply saying "Let there be" and something is.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Charpig

[Crystal Shards]

I wasn't just responding to you, I was responding to the numerous other posts that claim that God cannot have emotions.

Yes, the Bible seems to have contradictions, but you need to read the passages more carefully.

Exodus 31:17 did not state that God needed to rest. He chose to rest on the seventh day of creation. It's very clear in that passage that God rested on that day in order to establish the Sabbath, which the Israelites were to observe in honor of creation.

Genesis 22:12 was spoken by an angel of God, not by God himself. Abraham not withholding Isaac, his only Son, was a foreshadowing of what would happen with Jesus Christ (though Abraham didn't know it at the time). Abraham did not withhold his only Son, neither did God withhold his only Son. Many of the events in the Old Testament were foreshadowings of what Christ would do. Regarding the Deuteronomy passages, the testing was really for the Israelites to learn what was in their hearts. God was able to predict Israel's rebellion, just as Jesus predicted when Peter would deny him three times. What the Israelites did was recorded, as a testimony, so that people would know and remember what would happen as a result of disobedience, and hopefully their descendants would do right and not do wrong.

When the Bible speaks of God as being strong and mighty, it doesn't mean that God craves battle. The Bible says that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:23). But, it means that God is perfectly capable of exercising his authority. He can and does punish sin, as seen in the Bible. But God would much rather have people repent of their sins and come to him. This is why he doesn't always immediately punish sin, he wants to give sinners a chance to repent. Oftentimes, the Israelites and most people could not have cared less about having a relationship with God, they frequently went their own ways. It wasn't like people were seeking peace with God and God decided to zap them instead. When people obeyed God he blessed them (at the very least, they will be blessed in the next life!).

Regarding Deuteronomy 7:16, God wanted the Israelites to completely destroy their enemies, otherwise the enemies would ensnare the Israelites. Again, Israel's enemies were not harmless little lambs that God wanted killed for no reason. They would have actively sought Israel's destruction. 1 Samuel 15:2,3 was the same deal, the Amalekites would have continued to threaten Israel unless they were wiped out. I find it ironic that many people have complained about God not doing anything about evil, yet when he finally chooses to do something about it, you accuse him of being too harsh. I'm sure the Israelites would have understood why God wanted their enemies wiped out, having suffered abuses at the hands of their enemies.

Regarding 1 Samuel 6:19, God had previously told the people not to look into the ark (in the Mosaic Law), or they would die. The ark had objects that were holy, like God himself. A sinner could not look upon a holy God and live, it was the same deal with the holy objects. I could be wrong, but I consider it more like death was the natural consequence of a sinner looking at a holy God, just like death is the natural consequence of jumping off of the Empire State Building. If I read the passage correctly, only those who looked into the ark died. The best analogy of this is the sun. No one can look directly at the sun without being blinded by its glorious light. The Bible's theology seems to be that no one can look directly upon God without being overcome by his glory. People such as Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Paul were brought face down when God revealed his glory to them (those people I mentioned did not die, however). The parable I posted earlier about the Pharisee and the tax collector shows that God is kind and merciful to those who acknowledge their sin and repent of it.

@MGS: There are occasions in the Bible where God had angels come, but it didn't guarantee that the people followed him afterwards. The fact that Jesus became a human means that he is definitely able to sympathize with our weaknesses. What better way to experience life as a human than to actually become a human? I am saying that God didn't choose to simply look down on us from Heaven. He chose to tabernacle with Israel, and live among his creations for a short time as Jesus Christ. God has sometimes chosen to directly involve himself in human affairs instead of simply saying "Let there be" and something is.

I'll get to your interpretations later (Esau or anyone else can feel free to jump in on them; hell, it'll save me time), but seeing as I'm getting ready for bed, I'll comment the statement that stood out the most:

"What better way to experience life as a human than to actually become a human?" God can do anything. If he knows everything, then he is capable of fully understanding humans. He doesn't need to (nor would he desire to) become human, and he certainly wouldn't need to send himself down to earth so he could do some kind of suicide mission.

[Phoenix Wright]

@MGS: There are occasions in the Bible where God had angels come, but it didn't guarantee that the people followed him afterwards. The fact that Jesus became a human means that he is definitely able to sympathize with our weaknesses. What better way to experience life as a human than to actually become a human? I am saying that God didn't choose to simply look down on us from Heaven. He chose to tabernacle with Israel, and live among his creations for a short time as Jesus Christ. God has sometimes chosen to directly involve himself in human affairs instead of simply saying "Let there be" and something is.

A few simple people seeing angels means nothing. Why do only some get to see angels? Do only the "chosen ones" get to see proof of God's existence? If Jesus had instead brought his "legion" of angels, only those who had actually "turned to evil" would have remained being an unbeliever.

What Crystal Shards said.

Edited August 13, 2010 by MGS: Metal Gear Solid