Question about the Christian God

[Crystal Shards]

It's funny that most people talk about the vertical part of religion (the connection to some deity) when discussing religion, as the horizontal part (the connection between people of the same religion) is far more important.

That is, in my eyes and those of some evolutionists (OMG evolution explaining religion), the most important reason that religion seems so encoded in human behaviour: it essentially strengthens the bonds in a group of individuals, creating a solid community, which in return increases the chances of survival for the entire group. I doubt you will find many individualist religions, let alone ones with many members.

Of course, a vertical part that makes some sense whatsoever would be preferable, but they don't seem to exist properly just yet, so it's a necessary evil for now.

Also when discussing whether God exists or if He's omnibenevolent/etc., relations between people are pretty irrelevant.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Crystal Shards

[Jeffer]

Also when discussing whether God exists or if He's omnibenevolent/etc., relations between people are pretty irrelevant.

Not quite when those horizontal bonds are one of the main reasons people believe in God's existence in the first place.

[Crystal Shards]

Not quite when those horizontal bonds are one of the main reasons people believe in God's existence in the first place.

Erm, proof?

[Der Kommissar]

I can't cite it at you with a proper name or source, but one of the heuristic devices humans use as documented by psychology amounts to "if lots of people believe it, it's probably true."

That is, of course, only tangentially related to Jeffer's post.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Der Kommissar

[-Cynthia-]

I guess the argument is "People are naturally incilned to believe in religion. Therefore, religion must be true, because we wouldn't be naturally inclined to believe in something false."

Of course I would say that there's nothing natural about religion, as it's entirely man-made, just like any other ficitonal work.

Edited July 26, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Jeffer]

Erm, proof?

Little, I will admit, it is one of the evolutionary hypotheses about the nature of religion, an other being for example Dawkins' virus theory. It is however a fact that most existing religions stress these bonds. For an example, the gospel of Thomas asks the reader to look into himself and not join a group and coincidentally is not in the Bible. Another historical example is the city of Genève that during the time of the Reformation had kicked out the Catholic Church in a bid for independence, but afterwards the city was without a tight social union among its citizens until they took in Calvijn and employed his teachings, which did create said social union.

This might not be the whole story (there is probably a need for religiosity in many people, the supernatural part probably has a greater meaning than just the glue in a society) but it's a part of an explanation for the existence of religions. And the belief in the existence of a deity is of course connected with, if not dependent on the creation of religions.

I'm an atheist for the record.

[Kedyns Crow]

I think the concept of vertical and horizontal religion is very interesting. A few years ago in school I had to do a presentation on whether or not religion was necessary for society to prosper. After hours of research I couldn't come up with a definitive answer, so I just bullshitted my way through the presentation by talking a lot, but saying very little.

[Crystal Shards]

Little, I will admit, it is one of the evolutionary hypotheses about the nature of religion, an other being for example Dawkins' virus theory. It is however a fact that most existing religions stress these bonds. For an example, the gospel of Thomas asks the reader to look into himself and not join a group and coincidentally is not in the Bible. Another historical example is the city of Genève that during the time of the Reformation had kicked out the Catholic Church in a bid for independence, but afterwards the city was without a tight social union among its citizens until they took in Calvijn and employed his teachings, which did create said social union.

This might not be the whole story (there is probably a need for religiosity in many people, the supernatural part probably has a greater meaning than just the glue in a society) but it's a part of an explanation for the existence of religions. And the belief in the existence of a deity is of course connected with, if not dependent on the creation of religions.

I'm an atheist for the record.

I think you're confusing social benefits and reasons with the actual topic of discussion, to be completely honest.

[Jeffer]

I think you're confusing social benefits and reasons with the actual topic of discussion, to be completely honest.

I can see the confusion, but my point relating to this topic was that a 'God' is for a part just to help this connection (Thomas Moore once said that he didn't trust atheists because he saw it as unlikely that they would submit to authority, wordly or not), which implicates that it's a pure human fabrication. The God of the Old and New Testament, while technically the same, are really quite different and reflect the needs of the societies that honoured them (the old one being more violent, reflecting the Jewish battle for land while the new one is far more benign, mirroring a new ethic code which apparently society had need for).

I'll freely admit that I strayed off a bit on purpose, as this is far more interesting than the debate over the existence of one of the many deities in human history.

[Phoenix]

I'm new to this forum and forums and general, and I noticed that there haven't been any recent religious discussions. Because I didn't see anything against it in the rules, I figured I'd start one.

According to Christians, their God is Omnipotent, which means He can do anything

He is also omnibenevolent, which means He is 100% good

He is also omnipresent, which means He can do anything

Here is my question:

Because God is omnipresent, he knows that there is evil in the world. Because he is omnibenevolent, he would do anything in his power to get rid of evil. Because he is omnipotent, he is capable of getting rid of evil. Why is there still evil?

I skipped the last ten or eleven pages of stuff because... I knew where it was going but I also liked the question and didn't want to have to come back to quote and answer with my humble opinion, aka... fact :D (Just kidding back off!)

What I don't get is why evil needs to be instantly wiped out just because it exists. I believe God is more like me, or vice versa. Aside from history being a great story of overwhelming drama, he probably sees it as a chance for hands on learning, or hard learning. If your father tells you not to put your hand on the stove, there's still a fifty percent chance you will. Once you burn yourself, there's only a ten percent chance. I like those odds myself.

The God of the Bible pretty much said we walk in darkness or put in plain english, we don't know what we're doing. Even put it as destroying ourselves. Evil is a painful lesson, but once we learn it, in all its aspects, we'll probably be zero percent likely to question God. Look at our world. This looks like the longest most smoldering hand to stove burn in history, and I think we'll learn from it in the end.

[Fox]

I skipped the last ten or eleven pages of stuff because... I knew where it was going

And now, with you entering the fold, let me explain how the next eleven pages will proceed: ur hurr derp derp derp.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Fox

[Der Kommissar]

And now, with you entering the fold, let me explain how the next eleven pages will unfold: ur hurr derp derp derp.

Ah, a man after my own heart.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I skipped the last ten or eleven pages of stuff because... I knew where it was going but I also liked the question and didn't want to have to come back to quote and answer with my humble opinion, aka... fact :D (Just kidding back off!)

What I don't get is why evil needs to be instantly wiped out just because it exists. I believe God is more like me, or vice versa. Aside from history being a great story of overwhelming drama, he probably sees it as a chance for hands on learning, or hard learning. If your father tells you not to put your hand on the stove, there's still a fifty percent chance you will. Once you burn yourself, there's only a ten percent chance. I like those odds myself.

The God of the Bible pretty much said we walk in darkness or put in plain english, we don't know what we're doing. Even put it as destroying ourselves. Evil is a painful lesson, but once we learn it, in all its aspects, we'll probably be zero percent likely to question God. Look at our world. This looks like the longest most smoldering hand to stove burn in history, and I think we'll learn from it in the end.

I thought you where banned from posting in this section.

[Phoenix]

I thought you where banned from posting in this section.

Data loss, remember. Besides I didn't do anything wrong. The Atheists just forgot how to win an argument so they got desperate and hired Fox or something like that.

Anyway. Do you guys disagree with what I said or are you just going to start your usual mindless postings?

Here's another. I don't agree with traditional Christianity because I think they've gone off base.

Anything to say to that? Anything relevant? Because you're not going to win using a shitstorm. Even Esau can't save you now

[Aitherion]

Data loss, remember. Besides I didn't do anything wrong. The Atheists just forgot how to win an argument so they got desperate and hired Fox or something like that.

Anyway. Do you guys disagree with what I said or are you just going to start your usual mindless postings?

Here's another. I don't agree with traditional Christianity because I think they've gone off base.

Anything to say to that? Anything relevant? Because you're not going to win using a shitstorm. Even Esau can't save you now

I'm amused that you ask for relevant responses after posting something relatively irrelevant to the topic at hand, which is God, not whether you agree with Christianity.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Data loss, remember. Besides I didn't do anything wrong. The Atheists just forgot how to win an argument so they got desperate and hired Fox or something like that.

Anyway. Do you guys disagree with what I said or are you just going to start your usual mindless postings?

Here's another. I don't agree with traditional Christianity because I think they've gone off base.

Anything to say to that? Anything relevant? Because you're not going to win using a shitstorm. Even Esau can't save you now

If by "forgot how to win an argument", you mean, realized that arguing with you about any topic is equivalent to fucking a blender in a bathtub, then yes, I guess we did.

[Phoenix]

I'm amused that you ask for relevant responses after posting something relatively irrelevant to the topic at hand, which is God, not whether you agree with Christianity.

I was just referencing something from before. I always lean into the Christian arena. I don't really have much to argue with Muslims about, or Jewish folks. Just Christians and Atheists. Besides, it always goes there eventually because the overwhelming majority are Christians and Atheists. Trust me, dude, it's relevant, because religion tries to answer the questions with doctrine taken from old teachings, and I "disagree" with the interpretations of those teachings. I have to, that or cling to the legs of moronic teachers. I choose the former.

If by "forgot how to win an argument", you mean, realized that arguing with you about any topic is equivalent to fucking a blender in a bathtub, then yes, I guess we did.

But we weren't arguing. You were just telling me I'm stupid. Sad thing is, you didn't even reference why as far as what I believed. At this point, I'm convinced that you're just addicted to insults and have nothing better to do. You didn't even reply to my actual post, you just insulted me again lol. Come on, ignore me or figure out how to crush my opinion, assuming you disagree.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Phoenix

[Shuuda]

At this point, I'm convinced that you're just addicted to insults and have nothing better to do.

It's called frustration. Frustrating people often do get insulted a lot; usually with good reason.

I believe God is more like me

... I am resisting to make any snarky comments about that.

there's still a fifty percent chance you will.

If you're stupid that is. Of course, any sane child would learn better without actually having to put their hand on it. I have never put my hand on a stove, but it did not take me long to realise I would get burnt if I did.

Evil is a painful lesson, but once we learn it,

Ah ha yes. The victim of murder gets to learn so much... like how to die. Great way for people to learn a lesson.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Shuuda

[Defeatist Elitist]

But we weren't arguing. You were just telling me I'm stupid. Sad thing is, you didn't even reference why as far as what I believed. At this point, I'm convinced that you're just addicted to insults and have nothing better to do. You didn't even reply to my actual post, you just insulted me again lol. Come on, ignore me or figure out how to crush my opinion, assuming you disagree.

Fuck you're a good troll. Alright, I'll play the "rip Phoenix's point apart like any 8 year old child could".

What I don't get is why evil needs to be instantly wiped out just because it exists. I believe God is more like me, or vice versa. Aside from history being a great story of overwhelming drama, he probably sees it as a chance for hands on learning, or hard learning. If your father tells you not to put your hand on the stove, there's still a fifty percent chance you will. Once you burn yourself, there's only a ten percent chance. I like those odds myself.

Ah yes, because telling your child several times not to put their hand on the fire, and having them do it is completely equivalent to telling people not to do something, then not only not showing that you even exist or can be trusted, but also letting them do it as many times as they want without any repercussions, and then suddenly tell them they're suffering for all eternity (or as you believe, being obliterated entirely) instead of going to heaven. EXACTLY the same thing. Also, fuck, THERE ARE NO SECOND CHANCES ON LIFE. You can't just die and be like "Oh shit I screwed that up, let's try again".

Let's have a better example here. Say you are a Father and you tell your child that they are not allowed to eat any of those cookies on the counter

You then leave them alone in the room all day with no other food. When you return to find the child has eaten a cookie, you take a kitchen knife and brutally mutilate them, and then whisper in their disfigured ear "I told you you shouldn't eat the cookie!"

The God of the Bible pretty much said we walk in darkness or put in plain english, we don't know what we're doing. Even put it as destroying ourselves. Evil is a painful lesson, but once we learn it, in all its aspects, we'll probably be zero percent likely to question God. Look at our world. This looks like the longest most smoldering hand to stove burn in history, and I think we'll learn from it in the end.

Evil is a painful lesson? REALLY? Firstly, how about the fact that you know, evil isn't actually an objective principle? What I think is evil is different from what you think is evil, or what other people think is evil. Some people think sodomy is evil. I guess if practiced wrong that could be pretty painful. But as for the rest of your point, fuck you. Seriously. What is so horribly awful about this? When do you think we will learn from this? What are the things we should be learning are wrong? "HAHAHA THE WORLD IS SHIT AND SO ARE PEOPLE, WE ALL SUCK AND REALLY DESERVE PUNISHMENT AND SHOULD SOMEHOW CHANGE ALL THE THINGS WE ARE DOING THAT ARE EVIL BY SOME ARBITRARY DESIGNATION AND DO OTHER THINGS EQUALLY AS ARBITRARY FOR NO PURPOSE WHATSOEVER, DESPITE THE FACT THAT IT MIGHT HARM OUR SOCIETY!"

[Phoenix]

It's called frustration. Frustrating people often do get insulted a lot; usually with good reason.

If he wants to be frustrated... I say let'em. It's not my problem.

... I am resisting to make any snarky comments about that.

I should have worded that differently sorry.

If you're stupid that is. Of course, any sane child would learn better without actually having to put their hand on it. I have never put my hand on a stove, but it did not take me long to realise I would get burnt if I did.

People are stupid in this way. Every last one of us to some extent, maybe not in the hand on the stove way, but in an approach to "something".

Ah ha yes. The victim of murder gets to learn so much... like how to die. Great way for people to learn a lesson.

I'm not a Christian remember? I don't treat life and death the same way you do. This is why at funerals, the guy doing the uligizing(misspell sorry) never mentions anything about the "second death" or any resurrections. They don't get taught anything about that so they wouldn't know and neither would anyone else who hasn't gone through the scarier parts of the Bible.

Fuck you're a good troll. Alright, I'll play the "rip Phoenix's point apart like any 8 year old child could".

No I'm not. You are. I advise you not to do this as an eight year old. You're going to have a lot of unecessary typos as well as meaningless posts, like the one you just made for example.

Ah yes, because telling your child several times not to put their hand on the fire, and having them do it is completely equivalent to telling people not to do something, then not only not showing that you even exist or can be trusted, but also letting them do it as many times as they want without any repercussions, and then suddenly tell them they're suffering for all eternity (or as you believe, being obliterated entirely) instead of going to heaven. EXACTLY the same thing. Also, fuck, THERE ARE NO SECOND CHANCES ON LIFE. You can't just die and be like "Oh shit I screwed that up, let's try again".

Why do you keep assuming that I adhere to ANY Christian doctrines concerning the nature of God's plan? Some people don't get to meet their parents early in life. Some have to wait some years. Also, about dying... it is but isn't black and white like that. Do people go off to heaven or the made up hell? No, but could they be brought back from the dead in the event of the lesson coming to a head? Yes. Remember, I don't adhere to traditional views so coming at me with these arguments is pointless because I actually agree with you on part of it.

Let's have a better example here. Say you are a Father and you tell your child that they are not allowed to eat any of those cookies on the counter

You then leave them alone in the room all day with no other food. When you return to find the child has eaten a cookie, you take a kitchen knife and brutally mutilate them, and then whisper in their disfigured ear "I told you you shouldn't eat the cookie!"

The Old Testament again? Are you asshurt about a God that kills people? I'm not. Beisdes, it's been so long since those days. Let it go lol. Most of the Old Testament is riddled with "real life" lessons written for better understanding. I guess God doesn't want to just make up scenarios for people to study. It's more effective to use actual(what I believe to be actual) history to teach. That's all I have to say about that. I'm not going into the whole evil God crap until Esau shows up.

Evil is a painful lesson? REALLY? Firstly, how about the fact that you know, evil isn't actually an objective principle? What I think is evil is different from what you think is evil, or what other people think is evil. Some people think sodomy is evil. I guess if practiced wrong that could be pretty painful. But as for the rest of your point, fuck you. Seriously. What is so horribly awful about this? When do you think we will learn from this? What are the things we should be learning are wrong? "HAHAHA THE WORLD IS SHIT AND SO ARE PEOPLE, WE ALL SUCK AND REALLY DESERVE PUNISHMENT AND SHOULD SOMEHOW CHANGE ALL THE THINGS WE ARE DOING THAT ARE EVIL BY SOME ARBITRARY DESIGNATION AND DO OTHER THINGS EQUALLY AS ARBITRARY FOR NO PURPOSE WHATSOEVER, DESPITE THE FACT THAT IT MIGHT HARM OUR SOCIETY!"

It's not about what WE think. It's about what God thinks. If he's real, he's in charge and f*ck all opinions that differ. Honestly. Think about it. Why even challenge God on something? Even if you could prove God wrong to his face on principles he created I might add, he could just blot you out of existence, or change the principles to his liking, assuming he hadn't already and just erased your memory, or something random like that. See you can't win if there's a God, so why fight him? As for your question... Most of us need to live out this life of strife and endless struggle for answers, happiness, hope, and peace, then die. There's no need to change the world, or people. It's not our job to change others. Just deal with you and your own children. That's all. The world needs to continue on in this crap, and keep spiraling downward until it nearly ends. The lesson's end comes afterward, when all of history is used as a final proof that without God, we are doomed, doomed to fruitless attempts at utopia, doomed to finite existence, and doomed to the pain we bring on ourselves in that short amount of time.

The suffering we go through is necessary. We need it. God needs to let us nearly destroy ourselves completely. That's the only way the overwhelming majority of us will learn.

[quanta]

So guys, brilliant plan. Don't feed the troll. So begin post #1

Anyways, as far as what Jeffer was saying goes, I understand his point that the church is a way for people to form strong social bonds and reinforce the values of their society, but I think that's not the only benefit of religion (for some individuals). For some people it provides a sense of purpose, justice, allows them to endure, etc.

On the other hand, you can obviously use religion to oppress or harass others.

I think the interesting question is how do we distinguish between a religion or system of belief that benefits its society and one that doesn't? "Obvious" answers are fine too, since you have to understand the obvious stuff before moving on.

Edited August 2, 2009 by quanta

[Defeatist Elitist]

No I'm not. You are. I advise you not to do this as an eight year old. You're going to have a lot of unecessary typos as well as meaningless posts, like the one you just made for example.

You seem to not understand the meaning of the world "troll". If you troll, you attempt to provoke a reaction out of people. You clearly tried to provoke me into arguing with you. That is basically what you said, flat out. And I am an idiot for falling for it, but so help me I need to have a bit of fun here, even if I look like a fool doing it.

Why do you keep assuming that I adhere to ANY Christian doctrines concerning the nature of God's plan? Some people don't get to meet their parents early in life. Some have to wait some years. Also, about dying... it is but isn't black and white like that. Do people go off to heaven or the made up hell? No, but could they be brought back from the dead in the event of the lesson coming to a head? Yes. Remember, I don't adhere to traditional views so coming at me with these arguments is pointless because I actually agree with you on part of it.

HMMM, well, maybe because this is, I dunno, a topic about the Christian God? Also, please tell me where you think you could possibly see me saying you adhere to anything other than a very vague set of beliefs that covers a whole range. You yourself said that you believe in the "second death", several times. But you just talked about people being brought back from the dead, so really, I'm going to leave it to that.

The Old Testament again? Are you asshurt about a God that kills people? I'm not. Beisdes, it's been so long since those days. Let it go lol. Most of the Old Testament is riddled with "real life" lessons written for better understanding. I guess God doesn't want to just make up scenarios for people to study. It's more effective to use actual(what I believe to be actual) history to teach. That's all I have to say about that. I'm not going into the whole evil God crap until Esau shows up.

Fucking hell, how did you even begin to think I was talking about all this shit? HOW? I was talking about the fact that people who do "evil" according to God will be obliterated/suffer for eternity (or whatever wacky thing you believe now).

It's not about what WE think. It's about what God thinks. If he's real, he's in charge and f*ck all opinions that differ. Honestly. Think about it. Why even challenge God on something? Even if you could prove God wrong to his face on principles he created I might add, he could just blot you out of existence, or change the principles to his liking, assuming he hadn't already and just erased your memory, or something random like that. See you can't win if there's a God, so why fight him? As for your question... Most of us need to live out this life of strife and endless struggle for answers, happiness, hope, and peace, then die. There's no need to change the world, or people. It's not our job to change others. Just deal with you and your own children. That's all. The world needs to continue on in this crap, and keep spiraling downward until it nearly ends. The lesson's end comes afterward, when all of history is used as a final proof that without God, we are doomed, doomed to fruitless attempts at utopia, doomed to finite existence, and doomed to the pain we bring on ourselves in that short amount of time.

Fuck. Really? Really? People shouldn't fight Tyranny? People should just live in pain and misery? You truly believe that we should do absolutely nothing to improve anything on the off chance that the EXACT interpretation of the Giant Man in the sky who has no evidence in support of his existence, and contradicts much of what we know about the universe, exists? Really?

The suffering we go through is necessary. We need it. God needs to let us nearly destroy ourselves completely. That's the only way the overwhelming majority of us will learn.

Really? I disagree.

[Defeatist Elitist]

So guys, brilliant plan. Don't feed the troll. So begin post #1

Anyways, as far as what Jeffer was saying goes, I understand his point that the church is a way for people to form strong social bonds and reinforce the values of their society, but I think that's not the only benefit of religion (for some individuals). For some people it provides a sense of purpose, justice, allows them to endure, etc.

On the other hand, you can obviously use religion to oppress or harass others.

I think the interesting question is how do we distinguish between a religion or system of belief that benefits its society and one that doesn't? "Obvious" answers are fine too, since you have to understand the obvious stuff before moving on.

Sorry man, but given the history it was too hard to resist.

As for your actual post, I agree with you, pretty much. I agree that some people gain a sense of purpose, and whatnot from religion.

My answer for the last one is that the religion that benefits society is the one that does not condemn or try to dictate a supreme moral truth that everyone in the world should accept and be bound by. Having as few claims of fact that are in fact completely baseless would also be a massive help.

[Crystal Shards]

I skipped the last ten or eleven pages of stuff because... I knew where it was going but I also liked the question and didn't want to have to come back to quote and answer with my humble opinion, aka... fact :D (Just kidding back off!)

ITT yet another idiot doesn't read the entire topic and as such blathers on about useless, irrelevant bullshit.

EDIT: Relevant picture -

Edited August 3, 2009 by Crystal Shards

[Meteor]

I really have no idea what this has to do with the question, but you posted it so I'm responding.

There's no need to change the world, or people. It's not our job to change others.

Maybe not, but if for no other reason, it's to our species's benefit. Or some people might genuinely want to help others (Pfff who would want that!)

Just deal with you and your own children. That's all.

Deal with our children? Didn't you just say we shouldn't worry about other people?

The world needs to continue on in this crap, and keep spiraling downward until it nearly ends. The lesson's end comes afterward, when all of history is used as a final proof that without God, we are doomed, doomed to fruitless attempts at utopia, doomed to finite existence, and doomed to the pain we bring on ourselves in that short amount of time.

Or maybe we're doomed because that's just the way it works. And if there is a God, how will this prove he exists?

The suffering we go through is necessary. We need it. God needs to let us nearly destroy ourselves completely. That's the only way the overwhelming majority of us will learn.

[citation needed]