FE5 Hard Mode

[dondon151]

Though admittedly I did sit through all ten attacks of every ballista and all 5 attacks of every siege tome I didn't intend to capture. Though I don't really see this as a problem unless we're playing for ranks, in which case who cares about thieves, we only need warp staves.

Sitting through ballistae attacks is like boss abusing, so for the purposes of this argument your levels are incredibly inflated. You don't seem to understand the meaning of efficiency; we don't want to dilly-dally.

Lifis will have 30 hp and 5 def when Parn joins assuming Neir scroll use since we got it in chapter 8x.

The problem here is that you gave Lifis Neir for 12 of his 14 level ups, which is unrealistic given the competition for the scroll and the effort that has to be put into trading it around when units are nearing a level up. Lowering his level and his Neir usage to represent a realistic scenario puts his concrete durability at the same level as Pahn's, except Pahn has more avoid and Sol and Ambush. Then, Lifis has problems leveling past 20/0 because of Knight Proof competition, in addition to the marginal benefit that he gets out of being able to steal magic swords.

If both use the Neir scroll, they have 20% growths. That means it's five levels for an increase. Lifis is stealing these things something like 3-4 chapters earlier than Parn, and that's assuming they gain exp at an equal rate. It's probaly closer to 5-6 chapters. That's something like 15-20% of the game.

You seemed to ignore what I said about Lifis needing to be 20/10 with every level up being boosted by Neir. Since realistically about half of his level ups don't have Neir, he needs to be at about 20/18 to steal 12 WT weapons, which no one ever reaches in this game.

Saphy doesn't actually need her promotion. It's nice, mostly for the boost in mag, but her durability is so paperthin that she'd rather be captured than have to face a round of combat, because the enemy will kill her if she has a weapon, and that's far worse than being captured.

20/1 Saphy survives 22 atk, but with a Life Ring she can survive a round of combat from a 29 atk enemy (Saphy wants the Life Ring to not fatigue as easily). If she can survive a round of combat, I'd rather her not get captured so I wouldn't have to go out of my way to take all of her staves back.

You're right, it is an issue...for people who have an enemy phase. Neither Lifis nor Parn would be caught dead tanking (or rather, would be caught dead if they tried to tank). Nothing I've said about Lifis' stats are significantly different if he only gets Neir 80% or even 70% of his levelups.

I don't see how this has anything to do with what I said. If you have problems with trading around resources, try going to the FE9 board and arguing up Gatrie, Brom, Devdan, etc.

After Manster he starts lagging a bit. Chapter 10 gives him a boost since there's enough ballista bolts flying around to give everybody on your team a free 80 or so exp (doubled for the sword users like Lifis since you'd be insane not to give them the elite sword while they rake in their free exp) which puts him back on track for 1.5 levels a chapter.

OK no one actually does this so no Lifis isn't getting anywhere near 1.5 levels per chapter.

That's three extra chapters of free iron axes, three extra chapters of free javelins. I'd say that's pretty significant.

But Lifis never gets to the point of stealing Javelins or Hand Axes or anything heavier than that, so it's not significant at all.

Of course you can capture too, but that's unsafe and, more importantly, unreliable. Stealing is neither of those; in fact, stealing a weapon reduces the incoming damage to your team, while capturing increases it.

How is capturing unreliable when you have a shitload of weapons and units that have no problems capturing enemies, i.e. Brave Lance, Brave Axe, Brave Sword, King Sword, etc. In fact, since most enemy units are lighter than their weapons, and since most PC combat units are heavier than Lifis, capturing is the primary way to get weapons while stealing is secondary. The only exceptions are like mounted units and armors, but armors usually wield heavy ass swords that Lifis will never be able to steal anyway and can still be captured by your own mounted units.

So Lifis has availibility, defense, and stealing over Parn. Parn has movement stars

Pahn also gets to chests faster, reducing your need to field double thieves and speeding up completion of the chapter, but I suppose this last point doesn't matter to you because you seem to think that anything goes in an efficient playthrough.

Honestly I'd rather have the 3-4 extra chapters of every weapon that you ever reach sufficient build for (i.e., not hammer) than PCC.

You don't reach sufficient build for most of the weapons in the game. For that matter, for Lifis to even hope to reach that level and be better than Pahn, he takes up lots of resources, which is always a negative.

Edited July 14, 2009 by dondon151

[cheetah7071]

Well, the primary argument here seems to actually be a disagreement about the definition of "efficient". You'll notice that the word used is "efficient", not "fast". For the majority of the ballistae (i.e., those that cover squares in your path; I'm excluding one or two in chapter 10 and I think that's about it. Maybe a few in chapter 13), letting them run out of attacks makes the chapter easier. It lets people like Saphy keep up with your team, and be able to heal without wasting Physic. It makes Lara usable at all in those chapters. The exp is a pleeasant side effect to being able to keep your group united and fight the boss without being hit by 2-3 ballistae every turn.

With your definition of "efficiency=speed", would you have problems with people using the FE4 arena? It's the same situation, except that wasting ballistae in FE5 actually makes the chapter safer, whereas going through the arena in FE4 makes it less safe (since you'll probaly have a few people running around at 1 hp). Yet I've never heard anybody suggest that the FE4 arena isn't open for use in an "efficient" run.

Any of the specific arguments about Parn vs Lifis really seem to boil down to an argument about Lifis' level, so I won't adress them until when (and if) we ever come to an agreement. Movement stars is really the only level-independent thing going on, and moveent stars can never be more than a tie-breaker due to their unreliable nature.

Edited July 14, 2009 by cheetah7071

[Maou]

Well, the primary argument here seems to actually be a disagreement about the definition of "efficient". You'll notice that the word used is "efficient", not "fast". For the majority of the ballistae (i.e., those that cover squares in your path; I'm excluding one or two in chapter 10 and I think that's about it. Maybe a few in chapter 13), letting them run out of attacks makes the chapter easier. It lets people like Saphy keep up with your team, and be able to heal without wasting Physic. It makes Lara usable at all in those chapters. The exp is a pleeasant side effect to being able to keep your group united and fight the boss without being hit by 2-3 ballistae every turn.

With your definition of "efficiency=speed", would you have problems with people using the FE4 arena? It's the same situation, except that wasting ballistae in FE5 actually makes the chapter safer, whereas going through the arena in FE4 makes it less safe (since you'll probaly have a few people running around at 1 hp). Yet I've never heard anybody suggest that the FE4 arena isn't open for use in an "efficient" run.

Any of the specific arguments about Parn vs Lifis really seem to boil down to an argument about Lifis' level, so I won't adress them until when (and if) we ever come to an agreement. Movement stars is really the only level-independent thing going on, and moveent stars can never be more than a tie-breaker due to their unreliable nature.

Efficient does equal speed when concerning Fe. Look at any tier list for any Fe game and you will quickly learn that abusing is not considered because almost any unit could become usable that way. Lifis is the best thief in the group before 12x, but even then his thieving utility is just mediocre due to the amount of leveling needed to raise his build stat. In a truly "efficient" run of Fe5, I think most players will agree that lifis is hardly going to be leveled. Instead, he will be mostly lockpicking and stealing the occasional tome or vulenary. His combat sucks big time, so even stealing from an enemy group is taking a risk of lifis getting owned during the enemy phase.

Then, when parn comes around, lifis is pretty much just a lockpick monkey and any necessary stealing can be done with good ol' parn. Since parn also has some combat utility, he can actually put that neir scroll to some use and gain some build. And I believe dondon already mentioned this, but you also have PLENTY of units who are great at capturing. Fin, dean, dagda, othin, and havan to name a few. And stealing becomes vastly inferior to capturing starting around midgame. Hell, capturing was superior from the start. Lifis just isn't stealing much unless we use your method and ballistae abuse him or waste turns putting him in risky combat situations just to net some exp.

[cheetah7071]

Efficient does equal speed when concerning Fe. Look at any tier list for any Fe game and you will quickly learn that abusing is not considered because almost any unit could become usable that way. Lifis is the best thief in the group before 12x, but even then his thieving utility is just mediocre due to the amount of leveling needed to raise his build stat. In a truly "efficient" run of Fe5, I think most players will agree that lifis is hardly going to be leveled. Instead, he will be mostly lockpicking and stealing the occasional tome or vulenary. His combat sucks big time, so even stealing from an enemy group is taking a risk of lifis getting owned during the enemy phase.

Then, when parn comes around, lifis is pretty much just a lockpick monkey and any necessary stealing can be done with good ol' parn. Since parn also has some combat utility, he can actually put that neir scroll to some use and gain some build. And I believe dondon already mentioned this, but you also have PLENTY of units who are great at capturing. Fin, dean, dagda, othin, and havan to name a few. And stealing becomes vastly inferior to capturing starting around midgame. Hell, capturing was superior from the start. Lifis just isn't stealing much unless we use your method and ballistae abuse him or waste turns putting him in risky combat situations just to net some exp.

Well, if speed equals efficiency, then playing "efficiently" doesn't complete the game in the easiest way. At any rate "efficiency" seems to be a poor word choice if what you really mean is speed. Wasting ballistae makes the game easier, because it reduces the numbers of attacks your frontliners take when they start dealing with the main enemy forces. The extra exp is just a side effect. I would have gone through them even at just 1 exp a pop (or even 0), just because it makes the chapter easier, and fatigue is basically not even a concern (you have enough knight crests for ten people, and you only need 7-8 for any given chapter. Not seeing a problem here).

With the lower level numbers, I'll admit that Parn>Lifis when neither gets favoritism. Giving Lifis favoritism, however, pays off much more than giving Parn favoritism does. Maybe it's not enough to boost Lifis to being the better thief, but it is a point in his favor, and I think he's better than people are giving him credit for.

Edited July 15, 2009 by cheetah7071

[Maou]

Well, if speed equals efficiency, then playing "efficiently" doesn't complete the game in the easiest way. At any rate "efficiency" seems to be a poor word choice if what you really mean is speed. Wasting ballistae makes the game easier, because it reduces the numbers of attacks your frontliners take when they start dealing with the main enemy forces. The extra exp is just a side effect. I would have gone through them even at just 1 exp a pop (or even 0), just because it makes the chapter easier, and fatigue is basically not even a concern (you have enough knight crests for ten people, and you only need 7-8 for any given chapter. Not seeing a problem here).

With the lower level numbers, I'll admit that Parn>Lifis when neither gets favoritism. Giving Lifis favoritism, however, pays off much more than giving Parn favoritism does. Maybe it's not enough to boost Lifis to being the better thief, but it is a point in his favor, and I think he's better than people are giving him credit for.

Okay, so you are saying that tanking ballistae bolts is a better idea then taking out the threat immediately? I will admit, in some chapters, you can't just send out a unit to kill ballistae threats due to there being multiple ballistae with the same targeting range. However, if you have the chance, I do not see why you can't send a tank character (like fin) to deal with the threat instead of waiting around for ten turns.

Your idea of "efficiency" really only applies when you can't just one-turn warp an annoying ballistae chapter or send reliable units to destroy the ballistae itself. Take ch.10 for example, is it really smart to sit around wasting the enemy's bolts? No, not when you can have safy warp leaf with asvel over to the boss and quickly end the chapter. This same idea of "efficiency" also applies to ch.22, don't tell me you actually sit around in THAT chapter trying to run bolts dry. I'm not saying that you have to SSS rank the game in order to be "efficient", but keeping ranks in mind while playing Fe is always the more "efficient" route to take.

Whew, apparently efficient is the word of the day. :P

[cheetah7071]

Okay, so you are saying that tanking ballistae bolts is a better idea then taking out the threat immediately? I will admit, in some chapters, you can't just send out a unit to kill ballistae threats due to there being multiple ballistae with the same targeting range. However, if you have the chance, I do not see why you can't send a tank character (like fin) to deal with the threat instead of waiting around for ten turns.

Your idea of "efficiency" really only applies when you can't just one-turn warp an annoying ballistae chapter or send reliable units to destroy the ballistae itself. Take ch.10 for example, is it really smart to sit around wasting the enemy's bolts? No, not when you can have safy warp leaf with asvel over to the boss and quickly end the chapter. This same idea of "efficiency" also applies to ch.22, don't tell me you actually sit around in THAT chapter trying to run bolts dry. I'm not saying that you have to SSS rank the game in order to be "efficient", but keeping ranks in mind while playing Fe is always the more "efficient" route to take.

Whew, apparently efficient is the word of the day. :P

Chapter 22 is actually really really easy if you play it slow. The reinforcements are a bit tricky with 14 leadership stars behind them, but they're unpromoted enemies, so it isn't that hard to stomp all over them. Then you have more than enough healing staves to make it through the ballistae the slow way (and the only way to reach them is via flier lol). Cyas should be gone by this point. The Gelpritter is a joke, you should have at least one 20-magic 1-2 ranger by now, just due to scrolls. It'd be nice if it's olwen, but it doesn't really matter. Just have tem pop holy water, and the enemies will just mill around till they can deal damage to him/her, meaning they'll only be taking 2-3 1-damage hits each turn. The boss is aggravating (which is why I said I hope it's Olwen with 20 magic, or at least near it).

The boss is a joke if once Blizzard is gone. Just wait it out (even asleep, you should have some people with enough hp to survive it), or have Tina steal it if she has enough magic after an M up staff.

I've got to think that, while this is much slower than a warp strategy, it's also much easier. The boss is powerful enough, and has enough leadership stars supporting him, to make your life hell if you warp in. You'll need a crit or skill activation or something, except you're pretty likely to just miss, and if you don't do it on turn one you have the Gelpritter coming after you, plus two enemies with status staves and highly dangerous and highly accurate ballistae. So, the warp strategy is a massive luckfest, while playing it slow is a near surefire way to beat it with very little luck involved (pretty much the only spot is early on when you're fighting the reinforcements that still benefit from 14 leadership stars, but they're underlevelled and even then you should be able to stomp all over them). Resource-wise, you use up 9 uses of restore staves instead of 2-3 (4?) uses of warp staves, but you get to visit the shop and replenish your lightning tomes (and don't tell me Homeros' isn't running out by now, if it isn't completely gone), get the holy sword for Olwen, possibly another Daim thunder for her, and anything else your thieves can steal. Not to mention all the exp. So unless you're seriously running short on restore staves (you should have 4 now, 5 if you took the B route, and you're about to get one by stealing from the boss, and pretty much the only remaining chapter where it's easier to cure status than prevent it with silence/sleep is 24x and I guess the final chapter with that 30 magic berserk user who it's far better to warpkill).

Plus, who decides which chapters you get to warp through and which you don't? A few chapters it's obvious (like 12x), because the resources you gain are just so much higher from completing it quickly than from completing it slowly, but you only have so many warps, especially early on. Why should it be determined for the player that he's warping through chapter 10? (I actually did, by the way, destroy the early ballistae in chapter 10 rather than wait them out, but only because I thought the enemies would charge or Fred and Olwen would get closer than they did. But some of the ballistae are only in flier range, and Karin does not like ballistae.)

Probably a fair compromise is that ballistae in convenient positions (e.g., the first few in chapter 10) get taken out early so you never face more than 1-2 bolts from them. Ballistae in inconveneient locations (e.g. 13, 22) are waited out unless you're under time pressure (e.g., 13).

Edited July 16, 2009 by cheetah7071

[dondon151]

I've never waited out a ballista and I've completed chapters safely, so if you actually have to do that, then you're doing it wrong, i.e. inefficiently. You should never have to wait out ballistae if there is an alternative, faster, and safe strategy, and I'm not talking about warp skipping.

Edited July 16, 2009 by dondon151

[cheetah7071]

I've never waited out a ballista and I've completed chapters safely, so if you actually have to do that, then you're doing it wrong, i.e. inefficiently. You should never have to wait out ballistae if there is an alternative, faster, and safe strategy, and I'm not talking about warp skipping.

Faster I'll grant, but charging a ballista is never safer unless circumstances force you to be in the ballista's range for other reasons (e.g., some of the villages in chapter 10). Waiting them out is always safer.

[dondon151]

Safer doesn't matter if both ways are safe. I've never seriously had to wait out a ballista before, and I'm fairly sure that there is no scenario in the game where you have to wait out a ballista, so this strategy being safer is irrelevant if there is another faster yet safe strategy.

[cheetah7071]

I'd like to hear your chapter 22 strategy that's safe without waiting out the ballistae or waiting for Cyas to leave.

In other chapters (21 and 17A spring to mind) not clearing the ballistae means that anybody 3HKOed is basically worthless. That means some of your best offensive options (Mareeta and Asvel are the ones I'm thinking of here, but there's definitely more) are unusable in those chapters. It seems far easier to me to be able to bring your offensive powerhouses along with you than to have to leave them behind and how your tanks can take out the boss.

EDIT: also, "safer" does matter. Let's say you define "safe" as <5% chance of death, and the slower but safer strategy only has a 1% chance of death. Then you'll be restarting 80% fewer times with the safer strategy. These numbers were pulled out of thin air, but it's just to show that different degrees of safeness matter.

Edited July 16, 2009 by cheetah7071

[grandjackal]

I'm loving the discussion, but ask yourself this question...

Is this on topic? Come on people!

What would you say to hard mode boosts? ;;>> Only problem is that Shiva would be only more killface than he already is.

[Fei Mao]

What would you say to hard mode boosts?

It could work considering how hard FE5 is already.

[cheetah7071]

I'm loving the discussion, but ask yourself this question...

Is this on topic? Come on people!

What would you say to hard mode boosts? ;;>> Only problem is that Shiva would be only more killface than he already is.

I'd like to see creative hard mode boosts. Something like new skills, different growths, more leadership (lol Cyas) instead of just straight up bonuses to stats.

Something to consider for hard mode are more weapons that inflict statuses. How about being hit with Thoron (for example) silences you? That'd sure make the gelpritter absolute hell.

Enemy classes technically being different from player classes and getting class skills would be another thing to see. How about every enemy swordmaster running around with adept? Every enemy mage knight running around with vantage?

[Renall]

Enemy classes technically being different from player classes and getting class skills would be another thing to see. How about every enemy swordmaster running around with adept? Every enemy mage knight running around with vantage?

Every enemy Berserker running around with Wra-

Oh.

[dondon151]

Swordmasters have innate Continue already...

Stat bonuses would be called for since FE5's enemies lack quite a bit in that department...

[grandjackal]

Here's one. Armors get Ambush.

[General Spoon]

Give thieves prayer and decent luck.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Miror B.

[Rodykitty]

Give thieves prayer and decent luck.

Give thieves 20 con and make them steal your stuff.

Make it hard to catch thieves from taking stuff from chests that you want.