Homosexuality

[Crystal Shards]

This tends to be a heavy-hitting topic, and since SD just came back, I figured I'd bring it up. For the record, not that it's relevant at all to this discussion in my eyes, but it might be of interest to others, I am straight. I wouldn't be bothered if I fell in love with a woman, but it hasn't happened yet, so I doubt it will.

My arguments as to why people are stupidly afraid of gay marriage are neatly summed up here, but since I have written that article a few things have come up that I feel I need to address:

In the US you can have a wedding (note the word choice here) through the church as a religious event or not, but either way you fill out legal papers. The legal process is called a marriage. The problem with laws denying gay marriage is that they are not only disallowing church weddings, which should be up to the church and the church alone, but they are disallowing two consenting adults to engage in a contract. Churches, as they are private institutions, should have the right to disallow weddings if they so please, but they should have no say on marriages, and the law should have no say on either. The problem with civil unions is that they are only recognized in the state they occur in, whereas a marriage is recognized by the country (and often, worldwide), which is why many gay rights advocates are pushing for more. I personally find it ridiculous that we feel we should vote on who gets to have what rights. Civil Unions are only more proof that "Separate but Equal" still fails.

I also have to laugh because some people say that gays have something "wrong" with them (in other words, they treat it like a disease or a birth defect). I have to ask the religious of those people: if God is perfect, then he doesn't make mistakes right? Then you can't say something is "wrong" with gays since God created us all. I've often heard people state mentally handicapped people are "here to teach us a lesson about acceptance and tolerance," so it makes me wonder... If people accept those who were born with a disability, why not accept gays, if you feel that they were born "disabled" as gay people? For the non-religious, if it's "wrong" then how come the animal kingdom has several examples of homosexuality and circle-jerking and still thrives? Where is the so-called threat that comes homosexuality?

As for people who feel it's a choice, please, tell me when what day you woke up and decided you were straight? Yes, some people engage in homosexual acts for attention, but there are people who self-harm or attempt suicide for attention. That doesn't mean clinical depression doesn't exist or is a choice. There are plenty of straight porn stars do things to get plenty of attention, but when it comes down to it, I doubt they chose to be straight.

And, before anyone brings any religious reasons into this, they might want to read this article. They pull a lot of punches, but there's still some relevant information there. Even if you aren't religious, please tell me how two people getting married affects your life other than some of the examples Portia De Rossi or

have given?

Feel free to include your own arguments, though please dear God if you're going to spout numbers or other ridiculous, potentially hard-to-believe crap, give us sources... and make sure they're reliable.

Also, some other links of potential interest:

Obama Justice Department Defends DOMA

Rob Thomas: The Big Gay Chip on my Shoulder

Jon Stewart and Mike Huckabee Talk About Gay Marriage

Why Homosexuality Should Be Banned (Satire)

Prop 8: The Musical

[-Cynthia-]

I wrote a thesis paper on gay marriage, here are some excerpts(some of it may be a little more confusing since I had to remove some of the context). Basically, since there aren't really any effective counterarguments against asame-sex marriage, there's no real reason to deny citizens that right.

The most common argument against same-sex marriage is a very simple one, that marriage is an institution between a man and a woman. By this argument, same-sex marriage should not be legalized because the law states otherwise. However, it also assumes that citizens do not have moral rights against their governments, because the law is essentially denying equal rights to some citizens. Dworkin states that the Constitution merely provides a set of individual legal rights. The Constitution does not state whether it recognizes our moral rights, nor does it state that a citizen must obey the law if obeying the law invades ones moral rights. As Dworkin states, both of these issues become important when a minority group claims moral rights that the law denies. This principle applies directly to the issue of same-sex marriage, since homosexuals are a minority group and marriage is a moral right. Even though the Constitution, via the Defense of Marriage Act passed in 1996, states that marriage is between a man and a woman, this law is denying a moral right to a minority group and thus is not a just law. Marriage is a basic freedom presented to all citizens of legal age, and should not be withdrawn simply because the couple in question is of the same sex.

Some may argue that same-sex marriage violates an individuals moral right to freedom of religion, since many religions consider same-sex marriage morally wrong. Members of these religions often claim that allowing gay marriage would restrict their right to religious freedom. This is completely opposite of the truth, not allowing gay marriages is restricting the religious freedoms of those who wish to get married. Enforcing any particular faiths moral laws upon individuals who do not follow said laws is imposing upon their freedom of religion. Any member of any religious affiliation that does not abide by the rule that same-sex marriage is wrong is having their right to choose their own religion violated, since the law is forcing them to follow the rules of a particular faith. The freedom of religion is both a moral right and a legal right, since it is explicitly written in the Constitution, so not allowing same-sex marriage on the grounds of religion is violating both moral and legal rights. The government may be permitted to revoke the right to freely choose and practice any religion if such a right infringes upon the rights of another, but same-sex marriage does not infringe upon the rights of others. The right to discriminate against a group, in this case groups with a sexual orientation different than ones own, is not a moral right. A government that claims to be secular cannot favor religious morality over non-religious morality in good faith.

Some may argue that the benefit of procreating and nurturing children outweighs the benefit that same-sex marriage would provide. However, same-sex marriage does not prevent the procreation of children; there is no relationship between the two save the fact that same-sex marriages will not procreate more children. Also, infertile couples cannot reproduce and are entitled to the same benefits of marriage that fertile couples are, so the logic that only couples that can procreate children should be able to marry is flawed. As for nurturing children, there is insufficient evidence to show that same-sex couples are inferior to heterosexual couples in this regard , and it is irrelevant regardless, since rearing children is not a prerequisite for marriage. If same-sex marriage were to be legalized, a homosexual couple would likely be superior parents on average to a single parent of any sexual orientation, since studies do show that single parent households often yield children with developmental issues . Legalizing same-sex marriage would not affect the procreation of children and would overall be beneficial to the nurturing of children.

Another popular argument against gay marriage is that will legalize other marriages, such as incest and polygamy. However, this is a baseless claim based off of pure speculation, and is an example of the slippery slope fallacy. None of the countries or states who have legalized same-sex marriage have legalized polygamy or incest following the legalization of same-sex marriage. And while incest and polygamy may be harmful to society, their influence is irrelevant because they are different issues from same-sex marriage.

Edited August 3, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Meteor]

The Constitution does not state ... that a citizen must obey the law if obeying the law invades one’s moral rights.

Of course not, rules are meant to be broken! In this case, it's kind of hard to break the law even if you want to, though I don't believe it's ever the best option. Instead, try one of these:

a) protest

B) sue

c) move

[Fox]

In before Phoenix.

[Phoenix Wright]

I have to ask the religious of those people: if God is perfect, then he doesn't make mistakes right? Then you can't say something is "wrong" with gays since God created us all. I've often heard people state mentally handicapped people are "here to teach us a lesson about acceptance and tolerance," so it makes me wonder... If people accept those who were born with a disability, why not accept gays, if you feel that they were born "disabled" as gay people? For the non-religious, if it's "wrong" then how come the animal kingdom has several examples of homosexuality and circle-jerking and still thrives? Where is the so-called threat that comes homosexuality?

Not all religious people think gays are 'bad,' or 'wrong.'

A gay has the right to be married. Perhaps they can do without the ceremony, but they can definitely be married. That's what I see happening in the next 10-15 years.

Anyway, onto what I think. Yes, they have a right to the ceremony, and the legal contract. What shouldn't be happening right now is that states are overlooking the fact they're breaking constitutional law. The eighteenth clause (in most cases to me) is bullshit. UTTER bullshit. "To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof." lolwut? Our only defense on this matter is the First Amendment. But the First Amendment is being treated like filth (in this case) because the men and women in office are too retarded to swallow their "pride" and give equal rights. Our country's laws should not be based on race, religion, sex, or color, yet they have done so in order to become the majority's ally. This is a time for the states to show us they can show a good argument for the eighteenth clause, but so far I am disappointed. They are not doing their job right, in my opinion.

"Separate but Equal" only leads to gradualism.

[Crystal Shards]

Not all religious people think gays are 'bad,' or 'wrong.'

Hence why I said, "the religious of THOSE people," referring to the people mentioned in the sentence that you took out of that quote.

I also have to laugh because some people say that gays have something "wrong" with them (in other words, they treat it like a disease or a birth defect).

Note that later I also have questions for the people who think that who aren't religious.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Crystal Shards

[Phoenix Wright]

Hence why I said, "the religious of THOSE people," referring to the people mentioned in the sentence that you took out of that quote.

Note that later I also have questions for the people who think that who aren't religious.

Oh, skipped that word. Sorry.

I noticed that part.

[Gordon Freemeow]

If I may add my 2 cents, and possibly add a different spin on it:

I myself follow Christianity, but personally I believe God made homosexuals the way they are. It wasn't a mistake or accident, merely the way he created them. Why? Well the bible says nothing about God hating homosexuals, and also the bible WAS written by humans, so I believe some parts are either exaggerated or made up completely. It's one of those things where if you're going to listen to it, you have to take it with a grain of salt really.

I in no way claim this is "right" or "the true answer" to any extent, but that is my personal belief, it makes sense to me, and answers the question.

[-Cynthia-]

If I may add my 2 cents, and possibly add a different spin on it:

I myself follow Christianity, but personally I believe God made homosexuals the way they are. It wasn't a mistake or accident, merely the way he created them. Why? Well the bible says nothing about God hating homosexuals, and also the bible WAS written by humans, so I believe some parts are either exaggerated or made up completely. It's one of those things where if you're going to listen to it, you have to take it with a grain of salt really.

I in no way claim this is "right" or "the true answer" to any extent, but that is my personal belief, it makes sense to me, and answers the question.

It doesn't exactly say God hates homosexuals, but it does advise men not to lay with other men. Then again, Laviticus also tells men not to shave their beards, so we can't put a whole lot of stock into that, even if we do believe in the Bible.

[Crystal Shards]

The Bible is a reflection of the society of the time. Men weren't supposed to lay with other men because well, that doesn't create babies, and when surviving childhood is a rare occurrence, you kind of need to have a lot of them to ensure the survival of the society.

[-Cynthia-]

The Bible is a reflection of the society of the time. Men weren't supposed to lay with other men because well, that doesn't create babies, and when surviving childhood is a rare occurrence, you kind of need to have a lot of them to ensure the survival of the society.

Exactly. Laviticus is more "how to survive in the desert" than anything else. Procreation isn't a huge problem any more, well actually we have the problem of too many babies more than not enough.

[Eltoshen]

IMO, there aren't enough people with the opposing view posting, considering around half of the U.S is against gay marriage.

Right now, you've already gone through the two most common reasons but I'm pretty sure people have more. >_>

bet the poll was rigged by some homophobic cunt

[Gordon Freemeow]

IMO, there aren't enough people with the opposing view posting, considering around half of the U.S is against gay marriage.

Right now, you've already gone through the two most common reasons but I'm pretty sure people have more. >_>

bet the poll was rigged by some homophobic cunt

Only other reason I could surmise is a lot of people are against it simply because they don't like gays. Simple as that. I think that was already covered though.

[Florete]

Unfortunately, I have nothing else to really add to the topic at hand. It just shames me to know that both my parents are "that" type of Christian. But yeah, people need to stop complaining about gay marriage. Some of the arguments I hear are just plain retarded.

[Phoenix Wright]

Don't judge a book by it's cover (no, I couldn't think of anything better :P ).

I can confidently guess that it's not that those people don't "like" gays, it's just that they're too afraid of them being crushed on/hitted on, et cetera. Homophobia type things. People don't rationalize as a whole either, because they're "pumped up" about "fighting against government." Of course, that's the general idea, not all protests are like that.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Old Snake

[Pride]

Homosexuality? There is absolutely no problem with it. Contrary to the beliefs of certain groups, marriage between homosexuals will not collapse society or cause more people to be gay. And as previously stated, some of the excuses thrown out against gay marriage are just stupid. I mean, of all the issues you'd think folks would be concerned about...

[Crystal Shards]

Only other reason I could surmise is a lot of people are against it simply because they don't like gays. Simple as that. I think that was already covered though.

You don't have to like them to give them equal rights.

[Gordon Freemeow]

You don't have to like them to give them equal rights.

I know exactly how you feel, love.

It is a little absurd that this is one of the biggest debated issues these days.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Meow

[Meteor]

bet the poll was rigged by some homophobic cunt

Are you

a) against homosexual marriage

b) for homosexual marriage and lowering the age of consent to 12

[Eltoshen]

Are you

a) against homosexual marriage

b) for homosexual marriage and lowering the age of consent to 12

a) Why are you quoting something that was crossed out?

b) My views matter little, since I'm against the marriage system to begin with.

Just because I felt like mentioning it, my dad believed that allowing gay marriage would blur the line between what marriage truly was. He thought people would then ask for rights to marry more than one partner. In the end, he just finds gay people funny. At least every time he sees a gay person on TV, he points out that they're gay. >_> Sigh, another screw-up from my parents' generation.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Crystal Shards]

a) Why are you quoting something that was crossed out?

B) My views matter little, since I'm against the marriage system to begin with.

Just because I felt like mentioning it, my dad believed that allowing gay marriage would blur the line between what marriage truly was. He thought people would then ask for rights to marry more than one partner. In the end, he just finds gay people funny. At least every time he sees a gay person on TV, he points out that they're gay. >_> Sigh, another screw-up from my parents' generation.

I'm pretty sure he was extrapolating on your point, like that the poll was rigged, not actually asking you questions.

[Defeatist Elitist]

No sane reason for them not to be allowed to marry.

[Eltoshen]

I'm pretty sure he was extrapolating on your point, like that the poll was rigged, not actually asking you questions.

Apparently so. I just read a few more posts of his and they're all like that.

[Remmé]

Another popular argument against gay marriage is that will legalize other marriages, such as incest and polygamy. However, this is a baseless claim based off of pure speculation, and is an example of the slippery slope fallacy. None of the countries or states who have legalized same-sex marriage have legalized polygamy or incest following the legalization of same-sex marriage. And while incest and polygamy may be harmful to society, their influence is irrelevant because they are different issues from same-sex marriage.

Polygamy is fine, up to a point.

I'm not gay, though I am bisexual. My grasp of love transcends even beyond "couples". Within limitations it's not bad if a group of people who love each other all marry up. I want to marry both a man and a woman for example. It keeps things interesting.

From a legal standpoint, this could just be abusable to get some of the tax breaks married couples should get. Then again, it's possible for people as it is to marry someone they don't actually love just for this very reason, like a roommate or something.

From a moral standpoint, I don't see it as a bad thing unless people are marrying like twelve people or something they hardly care about. Then it becomes silly.

Though I guess two or three couples marrying and just living together isn't polygamy by a technical standpoint. It would have to be like one man and a bunch of women marrying him, so I'll back off since this is becoming irrelevant dribble.

I digress. Here in Canada, I do believe that as of 2006, gay marriage is well, marriage, across the country. None of this "civil union" stuff.

[California Mountain Snake]

The debate over gay marriage comes up so frequently that often people forget that there are other issues on the counter, or that there are other things homosexuals care about than getting married.

Looking beyond the issue of same-sex marriage reveals the kind of out-and-out discrimination that goes on without the guise religion to "justify" it. People were pissed about prop 8? That's nothing compared to the fact that during that same election cycle Florida became the fifth state to make it illegal for homosexuals to adopt children. Not only does this heralds back to the discriminatory link many draw between homosexuals and pedophilia (which is needless to say baseless), but it stands as a slap in the face saying: we would rather have these kids go to an under qualified couple or live a shit life in an orphanage than grow up with a couple of queers. In countless other ways roadblocks still exist. The Don't Ask, Don Tell policy of the American military. The fact that the Red Cross still will not accept blood from men who have ever had sex with another man.