Homosexuality

[Hash Jar]

If you don't 'give a fuck' about your home, what do you 'give a fuck' about? Seriously, outside of your family and your health there's not much in life as important as your country. You don't have to love your government, but you should appreciate the place you come from. I don't know where that is for you, but most people in the world are able to live where they live today because they or their ancestors, near or far, gave their blood for it.

Because of their ancestors, not because of the land. They fought for me, the country didn't fight for me. I don't feel I should be proud of someplace just because I grew up there or was simply born there. There are much more important things to care about as well. Friends, family, enjoying life, and simply being happy. I'm not saying you shouldn't appreciate the good things that your government does for you, or how well off your country is, but it's not because of the land your standing on that all that you love happened, it's because of people. I feel pride of your country can create ignorance a lot. It generates a sense of superiority, simply because that's where the person came from and it's ridiculous. Patriots tend to defend what they support, even if it's wrong. I've seen it happen many times.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Rafael

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Gay marriage/intamacy is not only against my religion, it's against nature! I mean, come on... Does a plug fit into a plug? Does an outlet fit into an outlet? No. A plug fits into an outlet, and vice-versa. People can be gay if they want, I am tolerant. But I definitely do NOT approve. It is against nature for 1 man and 1 man, or 1 woman and 1 woman.

It makes sense for it to be 1 man and 1 woman. That's my counter-argument.

Are you some religious bigot or something? I know a perfect place for you, it's called landoverbaptist.net.

[DeSu]

Question. Why are these arguments still going on here? Maybe I should take time to read more of these threads, but from what I get, nobody changes there views. Gay haters will stay haters because they refuse to listen to reason, and gay supporters will continue to give explanations only to be met with "NYUUU YOU'RE BAD IT'S AGAINST GOD'S WILL/ IT'S WRONG AND NASTY.

[Crystal Shards]

Question. Why are these arguments still going on here? Maybe I should take time to read more of these threads, but from what I get, nobody changes there views. Gay haters will stay haters because they refuse to listen to reason, and gay supporters will continue to give explanations only to be met with "NYUUU YOU'RE BAD IT'S AGAINST GOD'S WILL/ IT'S WRONG AND NASTY.

Because for the most part, there's still hope. Also discussions like these can be intellectually stimulating. I mean why would you argue anything, using that logic? If you don't see the point, don't participate.

[Soviet Gregor]

BesidesItBeingWrong/Nasty/AgainstMyReligion, Evolution has made it "male and a female". According to science, all organisms reproduce in order for their species to survive. I just wanted to state this.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Star Mist's Nii-san

[Hatari]

Not sure if anyone has said this yet, but certain species of whiptail lizards are all female (or nearly all female)...and they aren't endangered species as far as I know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teiidae

another source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

Sorry, it's from Wiki...

Edited February 19, 2010 by Hatari

[Fayt Zelpher]

BesidesItBeingWrong/Nasty/AgainstMyReligion, Evolution has made it "male and a female". According to science, all organisms reproduce in order for their species to survive. I just wanted to state this.

I really don't want to get into this argument too much, but I do want to point one thing out. Some studies (I know it's vague, but I don't know which ones - it's been a long while since I read it. :( ) suggest that genes that are linked to homosexual behavior in one gender are also related to increased reproductive success in the other gender. In other words, the female members of a family with a homosexual male may in fact have greater success in finding/attracting a mate and a higher likelihood of a successful birth. This also appears to hold with male family members of Lesbians as well.

But honestly, I don't care what people do in their bedrooms. I'm straight, but if you're gay/lesbian, there's really nothing that you can do about it. And yes, I do believe that sexual orientation is an immutable trait.

[Meteor]

Question. Why are these arguments still going on here?

Because people can't help but feed the trolls.

I know this is the Serious posts board, but I can't elaborate more than that.

[Inactive Account]

Right, I'm keeping my actual opinion out of this, but the "unnatural" argument is not valid because so many other aspects of the way we all live and act are not "natural". Our bodies are "naturally" wired to reproduce best when we're in our late teens/early twenties; you don't see people calling it "unnatural" and discriminating against people who don't have kids by then, do you? (Well, I suppose you do; there are just not that many of them and they're generally ignored.)

[Crystal Shards]

BesidesItBeingWrong/Nasty/AgainstMyReligion, Evolution has made it "male and a female". According to science, all organisms reproduce in order for their species to survive. I just wanted to state this.

According to science? That's a bullshit argument. According to science, some traits make people inferior (for example, mental retardation, physical handicaps, certain personality traits, etc.). Should we commit genocide because of it, or at the very least take away these people's rights?

Gross exaggeration? Sound absurd? Yeah. But that's what you get when you use "according to science" when you're talking about human rights. So fucking what if "nature" has it as one man and one woman? It's not like the computer screen you're staring at right now is natural.

[quanta]

Any sane interpretation of evolution applied to humans would acknowledge that their greatest advantage by far is their ability to manipulate the environment to suit themselves. Whether or not something is "natural" is a pretty stupid concept to begin with. Doubly so when foolishly applied to justify some sort of moral belief.

Also, hint hint: in no way does evolution a priori tell you whether or not having a certain percentage of gays in the population is a better or worse strategy for species survival (I use the term strategy loosely; there is nothing directing a strategy. Certain traits are just being selected for by the environment).

According to science? That's a bullshit argument. According to science, some traits make people inferior (for example, mental retardation, physical handicaps, certain personality traits, etc.). Should we commit genocide because of it, or at the very least take away these people's rights?

This is only really true if you buy into science = 19th century positivism (which is just... wrong). Evolutionary theory doesn't require that the most fit members of a species for a particular niche always go around killing the less fit ones. That would often be a waste of energy and time. Heck... it probably wouldn't be very hard to come up with a game theory model that could show why hunting down the handicapped members of a population and killing them isn't always an optimal strategy.

Not to mention, considering how core the idea of niches is to ecology, it would be silly to think that all handicaps are equally damaging to fitness disregarding environment. It's easy to imagine personality traits that are an advantage in one lifestyle but disadvantageous in another. Similarly, for a sufficiently advanced situation, physical handicaps might be nearly meaningless while even relatively minor mental handicaps would be very damaging. In a more primitive tribe, physical handicaps would be far more harmful and a minor mental handicap possibly less so in comparison.

So fucking what if "nature" has it as one man and one woman? It's not like the computer screen you're staring at right now is natural.

I'd argue the computer screen is perfectly natural. Just like a beaver's dam. Although that's obviously wrong according to the colloquial meaning, that's because the colloquial meaning promotes some sort of insane dichotomy between humans and the rest of nature.

[Crystal Shards]

This is only really true if you buy into science = 19th century positivism (which is just... wrong). Evolutionary theory doesn't require that the most fit members of a species for a particular niche always go around killing the less fit ones. That would often be a waste of energy and time. Heck... it probably wouldn't be very hard to come up with a game theory model that could show why hunting down the handicapped members of a population and killing them isn't always an optimal strategy.

Not to mention, considering how core the idea of niches is to ecology, it would be silly to think that all handicaps are equally damaging to fitness disregarding environment. It's easy to imagine personality traits that are an advantage in one lifestyle but disadvantageous in another. Similarly, for a sufficiently advanced situation, physical handicaps might be nearly meaningless while even relatively minor mental handicaps would be very damaging. In a more primitive tribe, physical handicaps would be far more harmful and a minor mental handicap possibly less so in comparison.

This isn't even really touching on what I'm saying.

I'd argue the computer screen is perfectly natural. Just like a beaver's dam. Although that's obviously wrong according to the colloquial meaning, that's because the colloquial meaning promotes some sort of insane dichotomy between humans and the rest of nature.

I would argue that too, but again you seem to be missing my point. There's this diseased thought process that tends to come into play when we talk about homosexuality, that if it's not "natural" it's not "right." Computer screens are not "natural." Get it? I think you do, so I dunno why you really bring this up either.

[-Cynthia-]

The "gay people can't procreate so it's not natural" makes it easy to apply the argument that infertile people also shouldn't get married/ have sex, condoms/birth control are immoral etc. It's an argument that only applies if you actually believe in all the other things, which most people who make the arguments do not.

[Crystal Shards]

Prop 8 has been deemed unconstitutional, bitches.

[grandjackal]

In California. This is not quite the end of Prop 8, so it is most likely to go to higher courts. However, this is most certainly a step forward.

[Percivalé]

DISCLAIMER: Bizz has not read any of this thread; caution before continuing

I love homosexual people, with a passion.

Right now, I am all for gay rights. I am all for expressing your sexuality and sexual preferences with no fear. My best friend who is a bisexual has taught me so many things about acceptance, and I am so close to her that I feel a sort of bond that forever will tether me to this opinion that I have had since I was a child.

I was raised by a very religious father and a semi-religious mother who both believe that homosexuality is wrong, though my mother is much more lenient than my father (her best friend is a gay man). I find homosexuals to be incredibly interesting to be around since a lot of them don't bother to attempt hiding their sexual orientation. After all, why hide it? Society as a whole disgusts me these days: we all scorn people depending on race, religion, sex, anything we can pull out of our asses, along with the arguments that we pull out along with them. We are shameless creatures that have driven homosexuals to suicide and even kill them simply for being what they are.

God did not teach us to hate. God does not hate those who are homosexual. Being religious is not about hate.

No; God taught us about acceptance.

Be gay and have a gay old time!

Express your sexuality with pride!

Don't be afraid of what society tells you to do. True love is true love... don't put the banhammer on gay rights!

this has been bizz

[Chuy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PooEhBxh0NY&feature=related

(If you manage to see up ti the end... LOL at Heather. (FE10) XD

Meh. I forgot how I found this. XD (Something to do with banned commercials and then random video's from most featured.)

(Before you start reading I'm straight by the way.)

Anyways, I have tons of homosexual friends. (8 gay/ 6 bi / 8 lesbian.) I don't have a problem with that. I'm religulous and all but I'm VERY open-minded. I doesn't bother me that there the way they are. (If they can accept me then why can't I do the same?) I just depends on your point of view.

This is how I see it (And I go by TONS of other things similar to this):

There humans (Believe it or not) and like all humans were ALL different. (We look different, we act different, we do things our own way, etc.) The one I really want to get to is that:

WE ALL HAVE DIFFERENT LIKES AND DISLIKES.

Gay men like men. Gay women like women. Straight people like their opposite sex. I see no reason what so ever to hate someone that likes something I don't.

It just depends on how you look at things. (This is just my view on this "issue")

As for gay marriage, I really don't care. I mean it's like saying that you can't love someone. Gay people fight for their marriage rights because there people who just want to spend the rest of their lives with the person they love. I honestly don't see whats bad about that. (Or at least I think so.)

Well I think it's not wrong but I don't support it. If you look at things more broadly (Which I do for everything.) you might change your mind on the issue.

(What did I get myself into.)

[volkethereaper]

Marriage in and of itself seems silly to me. Why should there be a legal agreement between two people who love eachother? Vows should be a private thing between one person and another. It seems to me the law has a tendency to get in the way in matters of relationships. Plus, no marriage=no messy divorce proceedings. But, since it's a well established tradition which has no forseeable decline, marriage should be allowed to everyone. If you want to potentially ruin your life with legal trouble, that's your perrogative.

EDIT: changed or to and.

Edited August 5, 2010 by volkethereaper

[Fenrir]

DISCLAIMER: Bizz has not read any of this thread; caution before continuing

I love homosexual people, with a passion.

Right now, I am all for gay rights. I am all for expressing your sexuality and sexual preferences with no fear. My best friend who is a bisexual has taught me so many things about acceptance, and I am so close to her that I feel a sort of bond that forever will tether me to this opinion that I have had since I was a child.

I was raised by a very religious father and a semi-religious mother who both believe that homosexuality is wrong, though my mother is much more lenient than my father (her best friend is a gay man). I find homosexuals to be incredibly interesting to be around since a lot of them don't bother to attempt hiding their sexual orientation. After all, why hide it? Society as a whole disgusts me these days: we all scorn people depending on race, religion, sex, anything we can pull out of our asses, along with the arguments that we pull out along with them. We are shameless creatures that have driven homosexuals to suicide and even kill them simply for being what they are.

God did not teach us to hate. God does not hate those who are homosexual. Being religious is not about hate.

No; God taught us about acceptance.

Be gay and have a gay old time!

Express your sexuality with pride!

Don't be afraid of what society tells you to do. True love is true love... don't put the banhammer on gay rights!

this has been bizz

yes, this makes sense to me as well most likely nobody will change who they are in terms of who they like, i dont "love homo's" but i don't hate them, and people CAN change, i know a pastor who used to be gay.

Marriage in and of itself seems silly to me. Why should there be a legal agreement between two people who love eachother? Vows should be a private thing between one person and another. It seems to me the law has a tendency to get in the way in matters of relationships. Plus, no marriage=no messy divorce proceedings. But, since it's a well established tradition which has no forseeable decline, marriage should be allowed to everyone. If you want to potentially ruin your life with legal trouble, that's your perrogative.

EDIT: changed or to and.

ruining your life with legal troubles or always being with someone you love? you can chose as well as having sex with that person

[quanta]

Prop 8 has been deemed unconstitutional, bitches.

Not the way I would have preferred for this outcome to happen precisely, but eh...

For the record, what I mean is that preferably, the voter base or lawmakers would repeal the damn thing instead of a court overruling it. Victory by court decision has often proved messy and incomplete. But practically speaking, I understand why this strategy is used (Even if I don't really buy that old law was written with coherent intent about today's controversial issues). But hey, maybe California's constitution is way more specific than I realize.

[Esau of Isaac]

You may yet have the chance, quanta, to see it repealed the old fashioned way. An appeal is certain to happen, and it will inevitably reach the Supreme Court.

Either way, the gay-hating community is going the way of the dinosaur. It's only a matter of time before the law reflects that.

[Mikethfc]

Gay marriage/intamacy is not only against my religion, it's against nature!

Norway disagrees! Also late response is late

[Crystal Shards]

Etzel's Hips: Yes, in California, but this is the start of something. This has the potential to be this generation's Loving v. Virginia.

Not the way I would have preferred for this outcome to happen precisely, but eh...

For the record, what I mean is that preferably, the voter base or lawmakers would repeal the damn thing instead of a court overruling it. Victory by court decision has often proved messy and incomplete. But practically speaking, I understand why this strategy is used (Even if I don't really buy that old law was written with coherent intent about today's controversial issues). But hey, maybe California's constitution is way more specific than I realize.

Well considering that misleading the voting population was how Prop 8 got into existence to begin with, I don't really trust the voting population.

Dear Proposition 8 supporters – You lost because you lied

Also, speaking to Esau's point: The coming evangelical collapse

Edited August 5, 2010 by Crystal Shards

[Charpig]

Even if gay marriage is banned, people will continue to be gay. As Peter Griffin once said to the FCC, "You can't stop people from being who they are!" The Bible teaches us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Legislation cannot solve the "problem" of homosexuality, abortion, or any other sin perceived by the evangelical community. Legislation has never fixed human nature. The church often misses the boat on their very own religion. Legislation doesn't solve sin, Jesus does. According to Jesus himself, the defining trait of his disciples is that they have love for one another (John 13:35). The church doesn't seem to be showing a lot of love, as perceived by some of you. Jesus did not even mention homosexuality in the Gospels, yet there was certainly homosexuality going on in the Roman Empire of Jesus's time. However, the original marriage was indeed between a man and a woman (Genesis Ch. 2). I believe that, according to the Bible, God intended marriage to be between a man and a woman. But he doesn't tell us to hate homosexuals; no, we should be kind and compassionate to them, just like Jesus was kind and compassionate to the woman at the well. Nor does God consider homosexuality to be worse than heterosexual adultery or any other sin. And there are some gay people who would be straight if given the chance.

I am not a gay rights activist, nor am I gay. But banning gay marriage is not going to magically solve America's problems or make it any more "spiritual." Jesus taught that man brings up evil out of the evil stored in his heart (Mark 7:20-23), and the church members need to take the specks out of their own eyes (in other words, deal with their own sins) before they try to take the specks out of other people's eyes. Jesus himself never tried to get the government to enforce his views, nor did he advise his followers to do such a thing.

[SSP]

Not to go off on too much of a tangent, but has anyone actually read excerpts of Judge Walker's ruling on Prop 8? It's a wonderful read. Since my words can't really pack the punch his do:

One of Judge Walker’s strongest points was that traditional notions of marriage can no longer be used to justify discrimination, just as gender roles in opposite-sex marriage have changed dramatically over the decades. All marriages are now unions of equals, he wrote, and there is no reason to restrict that equality to straight couples. The exclusion of same-sex couples from marriage “exists as an artifact of a time when the genders were seen as having distinct roles in society and in marriage,” he wrote. “That time has passed.”

...

To justify the proposition’s inherent discrimination on the basis of sex and sexual orientation, he wrote, there would have to be a compelling state interest in banning same-sex marriage. But no rational basis for discrimination was presented at the two-and-a-half-week trial in January, he said. The real reason for Proposition 8, he wrote, is a moral view “that there is something wrong with same-sex couples,” and that is not a permissible reason for legislation.

“Moral disapproval alone,” he wrote, in words that could someday help change history, “is an improper basis on which to deny rights to gay men and women.”

(from a New York Times editorial)

Seriously, those who testified in favor of Prop 8 got slammed, and in my eyes deservedly so. (Hak-Shing William Tam, anyone?) I also recall somewhere someone said something about how the Founding Fathers would be horrified over the legalization of gay marriage or something...which, in my eyes, is a perfect example of how the arguments in favor of Prop 8 are generally ridiculous. That argument in particular kind of reminds me of gun control to be honest; our society has very clearly changed over the course of nearly 250 years, and quite frankly whatever the hell the Founding Fathers might have wanted is obsolete at this point. It's time for our laws to reflect our people as opposed to discrimination.

Sorry, don't have a lot of smart, insightful thoughts to offer. <_< But I do 100% believe gay marriage should be legalized.

Edited August 6, 2010 by SSP