Rodykitty Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 I'm simply preventing you from spreading misinformation. Alright, I'm not allowed to have an opinion, thanks for that. You're welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Or, they assumed some spawn point blocking would be logical based on obvious cues, such as forts, but assumed players wouldn't have sites like Serenes Forest that show them when and where "surprise" reinforcements come from and that they would, generally speaking, not be likely to know ahead of time to purposely block those squares.You know that red units coming from the hallways is an obvious cue, right? You know that other maps exist in the Fire Emblem series besides FE5 ch4, right? I know, it's hard to believe. Good luck blocking lots of these. IIRC, there's some reinforcements you can't block such as the Dark Mages in C14 FE5. Sure, but you can block SOME of them. And IS clearly didn't mean for you to block a few of these (like the ones they put on the mountains in the south), but they also didn't really do anything to stop you (other than not having nearly enough units to do it). They did. I place Karin in there to block one of them. It came regardless. Oh and here, I tried to block all of Conomore's group: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renall Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 That doesn't really speak against my point. They wanted to make doubly sure this didn't happen in a chapter where a major boss and a large number of enemies appeared, so they made sure to plan for it. That doesn't mean they consider it absolutely fair game and entirely anticipated that people will do it on other chapters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 That doesn't mean they consider it absolutely fair game and entirely anticipated that people will do it on other chapters. They probably wanted players to do it on other chapters, because after all they have the enemies already placed on the map to deal with as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 That doesn't really speak against my point. They wanted to make doubly sure this didn't happen in a chapter where a major boss and a large number of enemies appeared, so they made sure to plan for it. That doesn't mean they consider it absolutely fair game and entirely anticipated that people will do it on other chapters. This also true on chapters without major bosses. If they didn't consider it just, then why didn't they implement this anti reinforcement blocking programming on all chapters? And if they didn't anticipate it for other chapters, then how is it that some of them can be blocked? I would imagine that if didn't anticipate people trying to stop the reinforcements, the ones that you can block would still be programmed to appear just like te one shown in the images. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renall Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 That doesn't mean they consider it absolutely fair game and entirely anticipated that people will do it on other chapters. They probably wanted players to do it on other chapters, because after all they have the enemies already placed on the map to deal with as well. We can't really know what they wanted short of sitting a designer down and asking them. And even then, there's a degree of subjectivity to it. If some guy from IS got asked about arena abuse and quirked his brow and was all "Oh, well we expected you'd spend 200 turns leveling all your characters in the arena!" I doubt that would suddenly lead to a sea change in the tier lists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 If they wanted the player to spend turns arena abusing, we would be seeing enemies with ridiculous stats towards endgame and ridiculous prices on weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Proof that IS doesn't want you arena abusing: The H5 arena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuuda Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 I'm simply preventing you from spreading misinformation. Alright, I'm not allowed to have an opinion, thanks for that. You're welcome. Rody, firstly, that is a spam post. Secondly, I'd ask you to stop trolling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentASM Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 IS has talked a bit about arena usage in the past. All they said was that arenas have the potential to break the game balance and I think that's why they removed them from FE9 and FE10 (it was probably in the FE9 or FE10 Q and As). In any case, I think this new argument about reinforcement blocking being cheap or not is going completely overboard. It seemed like a good debate in the beginning, but I don't really see it going anywhere. In the end, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. This doesn't really have anything to do with the above, but in my opinion reinforcement blocking is a little cheap, but why does it matter if the designers let you do it? At least you could say Arena Abuse is bad because it lets you have overpowered units early. However, what's missing a couple of reinforcements going to do? Let you survive a little longer and conserve your weapons? Actually, that does sound nice to me... In any case, this reminds me of the pitfalls in FE9 and FE10's bridge chapters. If you position a flying unit on a pitfall, any ground unit can move past it safely with triggering the pitfall. Nobody tells you that you can do it, but does mean it's cheap and should be avoided? I guess it just depends on what you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rei Rei Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 If they wanted the player to spend turns arena abusing, we would be seeing enemies with ridiculous stats towards endgame and ridiculous prices on weapons. That's sorta like FE5, with an Iron weapon costing 2200 gold, and you having to work your ass out to sell stuff. Well, without personal experience, we couldn't get averages, IMO 8B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentASM Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Well, without personal experience, we couldn't get averages, IMO 8B What averages do you mean? I can only think of character average stats and those simply use mathematics, there's no personal input at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rei Rei Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Well, without personal experience, we couldn't get averages, IMO 8B What averages do you mean? I can only think of character average stats and those simply use mathematics, there's no personal input at all. Stats averages and stuff, but yeah. Also, don't speedruns/low turn count runs use personal experience as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentASM Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Stats averages and stuff, but yeah. Those don't use personal experience at all. You just get the character's Level and growth rates and throw them into an equation that spits out average stats for you. Heaven forbid we collect every single player's character stats and then take the average o__o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rei Rei Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 But only doing the maths wouldn't actually overhype the character on his performance?not talking about Est-type Say, Bors' averages aren't bad, but his performance earlygame is lame, with all the axe users and shit. I may have expressed myself on a bad way, thoough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentASM Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 You're not thinking along the lines of tier lists are you? If you are then, I see what you mean. Those do indeed go further than just average stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renall Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 I suppose part of the irony of average stats is that there's basically only been one game with a Fixed Mode, and it wasn't even strictly fixed. Why didn't they do that again? I liked the idea of Fixed Mode, at least from a challenge/debate status, and for figuring out which characters were going to likely turn out well. Saved a ton of headaches too, since there was never any concern about how good or bad a level would be. Why not add that feature on repeat playthroughs? It's easy to implement (unless you're going nuts with the special incremental stat gains like FE9 Fixed did, I just mean a strict "Averages Mode"), it's an interesting challenge, and it could allow for certain multiplayer fixes (you could have a wifi or whatever mode that's only for Fixed Mode characters, so nobody could be any better than their statistical averages + stat boosters). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Well, without personal experience, we couldn't get averages, IMO 8BAverages are probably obtained by hacking the game to see growth rates, or from various guides that may be floating around.Also, don't speedruns/low turn count runs use personal experience as well? I'm sure they use a combination of pouring extreme favortism into certain characters to make the run go faster and manipulating luck to get the results they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renall Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Also, don't speedruns/low turn count runs use personal experience as well? I'm sure they use a combination of pouring extreme favortism into certain characters to make the run go faster and manipulating luck to get the results they want. Yeah, take a look at Vykan's speedrun topics if they still exist anywhere. Favoritism (not like Haar needs it lol), save manipulation, bum-rushing objectives, you basically have to do it to speedrun much of anything. That said, only FE5 actually ranks you on speedrun-level completion times. And then only if you want SSS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 (edited) That said, only FE5 actually ranks you on speedrun-level completion times. And then only if you want SSS. Likely a post-release change that wasn't tested. Most people say that you need emulator and save states in order to get SSS.AAA, on the other hand, looks more reasonable in comparison with a threshold of 249 turns. They probably chose 249 turns to account for things that tend to go wrong. Also, actually ranks you on speedrun-level completion times.Speed runs are about real time, not turn count time. Edited August 7, 2009 by Rody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renall Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Also, actually ranks you on speedrun-level completion times.Speed runs are about real time, not turn count time. Fair enough, although I've seen low-turn runs called "speedruns" even if they actually take longer than a pure speedrun. They often do go hand in hand though in FE5 since the methods that skip chapters also reduce turn counts as well as real-time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remmé Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 @OP Just avoid things that could cause the argument. Let them have their debates and community favourites. If you feel bored and want some entertainment, stop by the debate tournament threads sometime. At the very least, if you want to argue your personal experience, give a lot to back it up. Especially conditions that shouldn't favour their particular stats, and how they still pull through it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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