FE9 Tier list v3

[Chiki]

This tier list doesn't assume specific characters on our team (except for forced characters). We're much more likely to use Marcia than Rolf for instance, but it's not guaranteed- thus specific strategies involving things like Shove chains may not always be relevant. This tier list is supposed to analyze characters with a variety of team compositions, not just the "best" one.

I think this clarification solves the issue of Oscar > Jill. Jill is capable of doing things Oscar can only dream of when she arrives. I think it'd make the tier list very inaccurate to penalize Jill just for being slightly worse than Marcia, even though she is capable of breaking the game. As clarified above, since Marcia isn't a guarantee, the economic cost of giving her the Boots is far less important.

Regardless, I think Oscar/Titania should be penalized for not being as good as Jill/Marcia. If they can't cut as many turns as them overall, then they should be penalized. It's as simple as that. I think that assuming Marcia can be replaced by Jill and vice versa just ignores the issue: Titania can't cut as many turns as Marcia. When you use the excuse that, if Marcia/Jill doesn't get the Boots then Jill/Marcia does, it completely ignores the fact that Titania/Oscar can't cut those turns themselves. They should be penalized.

I understand the concept of economic cost, and that giving resources to Jill means not giving resources to Marcia, but for the above reasons I think that it's not much of a big deal--Jill only loses 3-4 turns over Marcia at the most anyway, and I didn't get the feeling this was a pure LTC tier list... Otherwise I'd argue for 20 magic Ike, lol.

Anyway, what do people think of Marcia > Titania?

Edited August 11, 2012 by Aeine

[Hawk King]

I've already said I think Marcia > Titania. Not a whole tier better but definitely better.

Titania really becomes expendable after Chp 11. You can bench her for the rest of the game and never suffer. Marcia's flight is useful in almost every other Chapter right up until endgame. Sure, Jill can replicate a lot of what Marcia does, but Oscar and Kieran (and even Astrid to an extent) can replicate everything Titania does from Chp 12- endgame, and oftentimes they do it better.

[aku chi]

I think this clarification solves the issue of Oscar > Jill. Jill is capable of doing things Oscar can only dream of when she arrives. I think it'd make the tier list very inaccurate to penalize Jill just for being slightly worse than Marcia, even though she is capable of breaking the game.

Defend this. My chapter-by-chapter analysis gave Jill credit for every contribution she could make with her flight that Oscar could not replicate. The result: Jill and Oscar contributed very nearly equally to efficient playthroughs when both are given Jill's optimal resource bundle.

Regardless, I think Oscar/Titania should be penalized for not being as good as Jill/Marcia. If they can't cut as many turns as them overall, then they should be penalized. It's as simple as that. I think that assuming Marcia can be replaced by Jill and vice versa just ignores the issue: Titania can't cut as many turns as Marcia.

Perhaps one of these days you'll come up with a consistent, sensible definition for "cut turns". If you're talking about unique contributions, Titania has more than Marcia and Jill. If you're talking about potential contributions, Titania has just as many.

Anyway, what do people think of Marcia > Titania?

I think your allotment of points argument was flawed in one major and several minor ways. Most importantly, alotting 0, 0.5, or 1 points for Titania or Marcia's chapter contributions is a flawed approach. When we're talking about Titania and Marcia, we're talking about units that have some of the most collosal chapter contributions. Titania's C6, Titania's C7, and Marcia's C12 are in a league of their own. They can literally save 5+ turns in each of these chapters. To award them 1 point like Titania's C5 is absurd. There were also some minor mistakes which I won't address directly, because I don't want to lend credence to your points-based approach. Instead, I'll craft my own argument (this may look a little familiar).

Titania vs. Marcia

Assumptions:

Marcia's optimal resource bundle is ~1500 Bexp sometime before C12, the Boots, the C11 Dracoshield, the C13 Energy Drop if her Strength is lagging, and some combination of {the C12 Seraph Robe, the C16 Dracoshield} depending on how much extra durability Marcia needs for optimal-reliability clears. Marcia will use the Full Guard when there are Ballistae and/or dangerous Snipers that threaten her.

Nature of the Argument:

Deployment: When considering Marcia's contributions, I will consider playthroughs where Jill is and is not used. When considering Titania's contributions, I will consider all four possibilities of using and not using Marcia and Jill. Otherwise, nearly optimal deployment will be assumed, but only as a simplifying factor. If ever Marcia or Titania have a comparative advantage when the assumption of optimal deployment is lifted, I will try to point it out. If I have been less than vigilant in my efforts here, I encourage others to step in.

Resources: Measuring opportunity costs is a challenging feat. I will work around the need to do so by crafting an argument in Marcia's favor. I will assume that Marcia receives her optimal resource bundle. I will, with minor substitutions mentioned later, assume that Titania receives Marcia's optimal resource bundle. See this post (and those that follow it) for an explanation of the validity and rigor of this technique. I want to draw attention to the fact that these assumptions heavily favor Marcia. One of Titania's most valuable traits is her ability to make substantial contributions to an efficieny playthrough with almost no resources. This advantage of Titania's has been so understated, it's almost criminal. Nevertheless, I will not mention this collosal advantage again in this comparison, so convinced am I that Titania is more valuable than Marcia even when both are given Marcia's optimal resource bundle.

So, Titania will receive ~1500 Bexp. I will administer most of the Bexp in C14's base so that Titania can equip the Knight Ward. ~6 levels with the Knight Ward equipped will ensure that Titania can double all of the fastest enemies, with the exception of Petrine (whom is a challenge for Marcia to double). With Titania's huge level lead and axes, Titania will at least match (and often exceed) Marcia's Atk. Titania will have a substantial concrete durability advantage throughout. In this argument, Titania will have the Boots. Whereas Marcia will equip the Full Guard when she needs the extra durability, Titania will equip the Knight Ward (which is, if anything, less valuable during a map).

Chapter Contributions:

Chapter 1: Titania is hands-down the most valuable unit. She's invulnerable, she can transport Ike near the seize square, and she can ORKO the boss. Marcia has no contributions.

Chapter 2: Titania, despite arriving late, is the most valuable unit again. She can rout 2/3rds of the map in 2 turns with perfect reliability. Marcia has no contributions.

Chapter 3: I apologize for the monotony: Titania is the most valuable unit again. She in invulnerable, ORKOs every unit except the Havetti (actually, she can ORKO with a crit), and has the movement to get the job done in 2-3 turns.

Chapter 4: Pause for a moment to consider how difficult this chapter would be without Titania... Now watch Titania get a 2-turn clear with relative ease. Marcia has no contributions.

Chapter 5: Titania's contributions here are modest; it is a defend chapter, after all. Titania can easily act as a wall to provide Cexp for weaker units (as can Gatrie). Unlike Gatrie, Titania can mow down the enemies to nab Dakova's Ashera Icon. Marcia has no contributions.

Chapter 6: Wow does Titania transform this chapter. With Titania (who's still nearly invulnerable and ORKOing everything except the boss), this chapter can be rushed for a 4-turn clear. Without Titania, this chapter is a slow (or risky) slog through enemies that can 3-4HKO Ike and company. Forget about a 4-turn clear, you'd be lucky to complete this chapter in the Bexp time limit (9 turns) without Titania. A huge performance from Titania here. Marcia has no contributions.

Chapter 7: Another huge chapter for Titania. Titania is still ORKOing just about everything (though she needs the Hammer to ORKO the Knights). Titania isn't quite invincible, but she can safely engage a dozen enemies before healing. Her performance here is dominating. In the most efficient clears, Titania is likely to rout 2/3rds of the enemies (including the toughest). Without Titania, this chapter would be a considerably longer affair. Marcia has no contributions.

Chapter 8: Similar to chapter 5. Titania's role as a meatshield is a little more important (no Gatrie or Shinon). You can even fill out fewer deployment slots to get Bexp. Marcia has no contributions.

Chapter 9: Titania dominates again. Titania can, with her 9-mov, near invulnerability, and excellent offense, plow through enemies on her path to kill Kotaff. If Marcia isn't recruited, Titania can also help ferry to the seize square for a 4-turn clear. If Marcia is recruited, Titania can clear a path west, double back to help ferry Ike, and still contribute to the boss kill. All Marcia can do is slightly mitigate the slowdown her recruitment causes by resucuing Ike.

Chapter 10: Whatever the clear, Titania is crucial. In brute-force clears, Titania can kill the Knight blocking escape, escape with Ike, or open Kieran's cell (whichever you need). In stealth clears, Titania's 9-move renders her a critical element to most efficient clears. Marcia can, if given ~all of your Bexp, replicate Titania's performance here. Realistically, Marcia can play a minor role in recruiting Kieran and Brom in certain efficient clears.

Chapter 11: Titania and Marcia are both hugely helpful here. Titania, with her 9-mov and ability to wield the Hammer, is in the best position to kill the Knight on the Arrive square in efficient clears. Marcia, with her ability to fly over houses, is in the best position to arrive. There are 3-turn clears that don't depend on Titania or Marcia, but the fact remains: these two units are the most straight-forward options for this joint clear. In 5-turn clears (needed to recruit Jill), Titania is just as helpful. Marcia, not quite as much.

Chapter 12: Marcia's greatest contribution. Without Marcia, the fastest this chapter can be cleared is 8 turns. But with Super Marcia, two additional clears are possible. One can recruit Jill and clear the chapter in 5 turns. Marcia is hugely helpful here, routing half the map (including Seeker). This clear does forfeit a Seraph Robe and Secret Book, I believe. If you are willing to not recruit Jill (also sacrificing the Laguz Guard, Wyvern Band, Haar, and Brave Axe), Super Marcia can almost single-handedly rout this chapter in 2 turns. Bravo. Titania can contribute more than the average walker in each of these clears, but this is Marcia's show.

Chapter 13: De facto rout: Titania and Marcia can both help by killing enemies. Titania likely has some combat leads while Marcia can fly around obstacles. Both are quite valuable.

Chapter 14: Both Titania and Marcia can ORKO Gashilama on turn 2 with some shoving help. Marcia, in most cases, is looking at ~25% chance to be killed by Gashilama. Titania, fortified from her huge Bexp dump and the Knight Ward, suffers no such risk. Marcia can be very helpful recruiting Makalov in a 3-turn clear. In such a clear, Titania can help recruit Makalov or go for the boss kill.

Chapter 15: Titania has no contributions. Marcia can engage in a moderately reliable solo clear, or she can combo with Jill or a Mage for a very reliable 2-turn clear.

Chapter 16: Titania and Marcia can both make big (nearly identical) contributions. They have high mov, great combat, and can be shoved by almost every beast laguz in the book. Titania has some minor advantages here: she can ferry Lethe and she use the Hammer to ORKO Kimaarsi.

Chapter 17-1: Both Titania and Marcia can clear out the enemies in the southwest or southeast. As for the trickier matter of clearing out the northern enemies on turn 2, Marcia has a couple advantages. Marcia obviously has an easier time getting up there. And with the Boots, I believe she can engage the Halberdier on player phase, negating the need to have the Str to ORKO him at 1-2 range. Boots Titania needs some shoves to get to the north, and she needs 21 Str and the Spear to ORKO all of the enemies.

Chapter 17-2: Marcia is going to be arriving for the clear (whether it be 2 or 3 turns). Titania isn't likely to be contributing.

Chapter 17-3: Self improvement.

Chapter 17-4: Boots Marcia can kill Oliver on turn 1 with a smite. Titania is pretty worthless here if Marcia or Jill are trained. Otherwise, Titania can lead the ground forces in a slower clear.

Chapter 18: Titania and Marcia are almost equally proficient in this chapter. They have great movement, great combat, and can ferry Reyson. Marcia has a slight advantage here because she can chase down Ravens at the end over untraversable terrain.

Chapter 19: Marcia can (with Reyson and many many shoves) kill Homasa on turn 1. Marcia and Titania can contribute pretty much equally in a 2 or 3-turn clear of the chapter.

Chapter 20: Marcia can be a major player in a 2-turn clear of this chapter (either crippling Shiharam or arriving). Titania can (help) get Smite or Rescue (but so can Marcia).

Chapter 21: Marcia can contribute substantially to this clear, thanks to her ability to cut across the moat. Titania can contribute to getting the Energy Drop or some other treasure.

Chapter 22: Marcia and Titania alike can kill the Bolting Sage in the 1-turn siege clear.

Chapter 23: Marcia and Titania can contribute substantially in this chapter with their high mov and great combat. Marcia is more valuable, thanks to her ability to bypass and cover potholes, but her advantage shouldn't be overstated; it's possible to clear this chapter in 4 turns with no fliers.

Chapter 24: With the Boots and a Reyson vigor, Titania and Marcia can single-handedly execute a 3-turn clear. Marcia has more flexibility thanks to her ability to fly over the river, but Titania has the durability (with the Knight Ward) and offense to break through the bridge.

Chapter 25: Marcia is on of the best units in this chapter, though her mediocre durability is more noticeable on this chapter than any other (well, maybe C28). Marcia can fly up to the north to kill enemies, but she needs to be careful. She can drop off a more durable foot unit to take the heat if she's not up for it. Alternately, if Jill is recruited, Marcia can lure and kill Gromell and then help clear the west or east. The best Titania can do is clear out some enemies in the south.

Chapter 26: Titania and Marcia are equally capable at leading the charge to Bertram; another great performance by both units. Titania might have a slight advantage thanks to her superior durability.

Chapter 27: Titania and Marcia are, again, almost identically useful. They can help kill Hafedd or Arrive. Titania's guaranteed ability to wield Silver Axe forges might allow her to ORKO some Generals that Marcia cannot.

Chapter 28: Marcia can assist in a straight-forward 3-turn clear over the trees. She needs to let Ike take the burden of the combat, because the laguz here can tear through her mediocre durability. It is my belief that there exist more involved 3-turn clears that go the long way 'round. If true, Titania and Marcia are equally capable in such clears.

Endgame: Marcia and Titania can help clear the way for Ike and Elincia in the conventional clears. Marcia's flight might be a slight advantage here.

Summary:

Titania and Marcia are both fantastic units that can make great contributions throughout the game. Titania's dominating performance in numerous earlygame chapters, however, cannot be matched by the advantages Marcia's flight bestows later. Titania performances in chapters 6 and 7 are among the most fantastic in the game. Marcia's performance in chapter 12 is also of comparable significance. Titania also has mighty contributions in chapters 1, 2, 3, 4, and 9 that cannot be replicated by any other unit. The only other unique contribution Marcia has is in chapter 17-2 (with is best described as a team effort). All other contributions can be replicated by other units. Concerning those other chapter contributions, Titania has advantages in chapters 5, 8, 10, 14, and 16. Marcia has large advantages in chapters 15, 17-4, 19, 20, 21, 25, and 28. Marcia has minor advantages in chapters 17-1, 18, 23, and Endgame. On chapters 11, 13, 17-3, 22, 24, 26, and 27, Titania and Marcia's contributions are very nearly identical.

While Marcia has advantages over Titania in approximately the same number of chapters as Titania has advantages over Marcia, the magnitude of many of Titania's contributions out-weigh those of Marcia's. Titania's contributions are also more unique. No other unit can replicate what Titania can do in the earlygame. Aside from Marcia's great C12 performance and her role in the laughably restrictive C17-2 2-turn clear, Marcia's flight contributions can be replicated by Jill and Tanith (and, occasionally, others).

Titania > Marcia

[Chiki]

Defend this. My chapter-by-chapter analysis gave Jill credit for every contribution she could make with her flight that Oscar could not replicate. The result: Jill and Oscar contributed very nearly equally to efficient playthroughs when both are given Jill's optimal resource bundle.

In my own, which was completely objective, I established that there are more chapters where Jill's flight wins out over Oscar with a rather large difference.

How does Oscar contribute as much as Jill does when Jill has one thing Titania doesn't have, which is flight? Oscar doesn't even do that much in earlygame chapters. He cuts a turn from 1, 6, 10 and maybe 2 turns from 9. How does that compare to Jill in the least, when she has flight that automatically makes her far superior to Oscar in terms of cutting turns?

Perhaps one of these days you'll come up with a consistent, sensible definition for "cut turns". If you're talking about unique contributions, Titania has more than Marcia and Jill. If you're talking about potential contributions, Titania has just as many.

How does Titania have just as many contributions as Marcia/Jill in terms of potential ones? A unit that becomes completely worthless after Chapter 11.. can never compare to Marcia/Jill.

Titania's C6, Titania's C7, and Marcia's C12 are in a league of their own. They can literally save 5+ turns in each of these chapters.

I agree, but I thought the mistakes on both sides evened themselves out in the end, making it a more equal comparison. Like I said, it's not meant to be perfect; it's just supposed to give us a general idea of how many chapters Marcia has an advantage over Titania, which is quite a lot.

Chapter 1: Titania is hands-down the most valuable unit. She's invulnerable, she can transport Ike near the seize square, and she can ORKO the boss. Marcia has no contributions.

Chapter 2: Titania, despite arriving late, is the most valuable unit again. She can rout 2/3rds of the map in 2 turns with perfect reliability. Marcia has no contributions.

Chapter 3: I apologize for the monotony: Titania is the most valuable unit again. She in invulnerable, ORKOs every unit except the Havetti (actually, she can ORKO with a crit), and has the movement to get the job done in 2-3 turns.

Titania may be the most valuable unit in all of these chapters, but the number of turns she saves is minimal if you play well with your other characters. In fact, she saves 1 from Chapter 1, 1 from Chapter 2, 1-2 from Chapter 3. I'll go ahead and give you 2 turns for Chapter 3. 4 turns so far.

Chapter 4: Pause for a moment to consider how difficult this chapter would be without Titania... Now watch Titania get a 2-turn clear with relative ease. Marcia has no contributions.

Shinon can 2-round the boss with a crit, and considering Shinon's amazing crit, it's quite reliable. Titania does make this map "easier," (I prefer to use the term simpler strategy) but she cuts no turns.

Chapter 6: Wow does Titania transform this chapter. With Titania (who's still nearly invulnerable and ORKOing everything except the boss), this chapter can be rushed for a 4-turn clear. Without Titania, this chapter is a slow (or risky) slog through enemies that can 3-4HKO Ike and company. Forget about a 4-turn clear, you'd be lucky to complete this chapter in the Bexp time limit (9 turns) without Titania. A huge performance from Titania here. Marcia has no contributions.

Assuming Titania isn't used at all and Oscar gets a lot of kills, I wouldn't be surprised if Oscar could 5-turn this chapter. Titania cuts a turn from here. 5 turns so far.

Chapter 7: Another huge chapter for Titania. Titania is still ORKOing just about everything (though she needs the Hammer to ORKO the Knights). Titania isn't quite invincible, but she can safely engage a dozen enemies before healing. Her performance here is dominating. In the most efficient clears, Titania is likely to rout 2/3rds of the enemies (including the toughest). Without Titania, this chapter would be a considerably longer affair. Marcia has no contributions.

I agree that Titania has awesome contributions in this chapter, and she's probably at her best here. When you think about it, though, if you don't use Titania at all, your other characters like Oscar, Ike and Boyd will gain absurd amounts of experience relative to a normal playthrough, so they'll have an easier time clearing this chapter. I would say a 7 turn sounds suitable without Titania, so I'll go ahead and give her 3 turns for this chapter. 8 turns so far for Titania.

Chapter 9: Titania dominates again. Titania can, with her 9-mov, near invulnerability, and excellent offense, plow through enemies on her path to kill Kotaff. If Marcia isn't recruited, Titania can also help ferry to the seize square for a 4-turn clear. If Marcia is recruited, Titania can clear a path west, double back to help ferry Ike, and still contribute to the boss kill. All Marcia can do is slightly mitigate the slowdown her recruitment causes by resucuing Ike.

It's a clear exaggeration to say Titania dominates. Assuming that Oscar is used regularly instead of Titania, he can basically be promoted at this stage with bexp and replicate what Titania can do. Even if he can't promote, there are so many enemies he could be promoted towards the end of this chapter. I don't think Titania's contribution in this chapter is unique at all. No turns awarded.

Chapter 10: Whatever the clear, Titania is crucial. In brute-force clears, Titania can kill the Knight blocking escape, escape with Ike, or open Kieran's cell (whichever you need). In stealth clears, Titania's 9-move renders her a critical element to most efficient clears. Marcia can, if given ~all of your Bexp, replicate Titania's performance here. Realistically, Marcia can play a minor role in recruiting Kieran and Brom in certain efficient clears.

As you said yourself, neither Marcia nor Titania have an advantage over each other. I won't award either of them an advantage here.

Chapter 11: Titania and Marcia are both hugely helpful here. Titania, with her 9-mov and ability to wield the Hammer, is in the best position to kill the Knight on the Arrive square in efficient clears. Marcia, with her ability to fly over houses, is in the best position to arrive. There are 3-turn clears that don't depend on Titania or Marcia, but the fact remains: these two units are the most straight-forward options for this joint clear. In 5-turn clears (needed to recruit Jill), Titania is just as helpful. Marcia, not quite as much.

This chapter can be done without Marcia, but not without Titania. On your LTC strategies, you found a strategy with Marcia and a Paladin and a strategy with Titania + 2 Paladins. It seems that Marcia's contribution to this chapter is unique, because her presence means that you don't need to promote Oscar and Kieran, which in itself is ridiculous in the first place. I'll go ahead and award Marcia 1 turn for this chapter.

Chapter 12: Marcia's greatest contribution. Without Marcia, the fastest this chapter can be cleared is 8 turns. But with Super Marcia, two additional clears are possible. One can recruit Jill and clear the chapter in 5 turns. Marcia is hugely helpful here, routing half the map (including Seeker). This clear does forfeit a Seraph Robe and Secret Book, I believe. If you are willing to not recruit Jill (also sacrificing the Laguz Guard, Wyvern Band, Haar, and Brave Axe), Super Marcia can almost single-handedly rout this chapter in 2 turns. Bravo. Titania can contribute more than the average walker in each of these clears, but this is Marcia's show.

I'll go ahead and give Marcia 6 turns for this chapter, because I'm going to assume that Jill isn't recruited since that's the best way to use Marcia. 7 turns for Marcia.

Chapter 14: Both Titania and Marcia can ORKO Gashilama on turn 2 with some shoving help. Marcia, in most cases, is looking at ~25% chance to be killed by Gashilama. Titania, fortified from her huge Bexp dump and the Knight Ward, suffers no such risk. Marcia can be very helpful recruiting Makalov in a 3-turn clear. In such a clear, Titania can help recruit Makalov or go for the boss kill.

Marcia can have a Steel Sword forge and an Arms Scroll (or she can train with the Iron Sword in previous chapters to make up for the Arms Scroll) to avoid being killed by Gashilama. I won't give either of them an advantage here.

Chapter 15: Titania has no contributions. Marcia can engage in a moderately reliable solo clear, or she can combo with Jill or a Mage for a very reliable 2-turn clear.

Assuming that Jill isn't even recruited, which is the most efficient way to use Marcia, Marcia is unique in her ablity to clear this chapter. I'm unsure how to award Marcia for her contributions in this chapter considering that a Sage requires bonus experience to use. I'll give Marcia 3 turns here just because using a Sage requires a lot of bonus experience in addition to the experience we've already given Marcia. 10 turns for Marcia.

Chapter 16: Titania and Marcia can both make big (nearly identical) contributions. They have high mov, great combat, and can be shoved by almost every beast laguz in the book. Titania has some minor advantages here: she can ferry Lethe and she use the Hammer to ORKO Kimaarsi.

As you said, their contributions are nearly identical and I've never found it necessary to ferry Lethe nor use the Hammer. No turns awarded to either.

Chapter 17-1: Both Titania and Marcia can clear out the enemies in the southwest or southeast. As for the trickier matter of clearing out the northern enemies on turn 2, Marcia has a couple advantages. Marcia obviously has an easier time getting up there. And with the Boots, I believe she can engage the Halberdier on player phase, negating the need to have the Str to ORKO him at 1-2 range. Boots Titania needs some shoves to get to the north, and she needs 21 Str and the Spear to ORKO all of the enemies.

Chapter 17-2: Marcia is going to be arriving for the clear (whether it be 2 or 3 turns). Titania isn't likely to be contributing.

Chapter 17-4: Boots Marcia can kill Oliver on turn 1 with a smite. Titania is pretty worthless here if Marcia or Jill are trained. Otherwise, Titania can lead the ground forces in a slower clear.

I'll give Marcia 1 turn for 17-1, 3 turns for 17-2 and 5 turns for 17-4. That boosts Marcia's turn cuts up to 19.

Chapter 18: Titania and Marcia are almost equally proficient in this chapter. They have great movement, great combat, and can ferry Reyson. Marcia has a slight advantage here because she can chase down Ravens at the end over untraversable terrain.

I'll give neither any turns in this chapter, because I think it can be done without needing a flier.

Chapter 19: Marcia can (with Reyson and many many shoves) kill Homasa on turn 1. Marcia and Titania can contribute pretty much equally in a 2 or 3-turn clear of the chapter.

I'll give Marcia one turn for this chapter. 20 turns.

Chapter 20: Marcia can be a major player in a 2-turn clear of this chapter (either crippling Shiharam or arriving). Titania can (help) get Smite or Rescue (but so can Marcia).

Boots Titania can probably arrive in 5 turns. Even if Titania has the Boots. I'll award Marcia one turn because two fliers are necessary for 2-turning this chapter. 21 turns.

Chapter 21: Marcia can contribute substantially to this clear, thanks to her ability to cut across the moat. Titania can contribute to getting the Energy Drop or some other treasure.

I'll award Marcia 3 turns for this chapter, because her advantage over Titania in this chapter is clear.

Chapter 22: Marcia and Titania alike can kill the Bolting Sage in the 1-turn siege clear.

Chapter 23: Marcia and Titania can contribute substantially in this chapter with their high mov and great combat. Marcia is more valuable, thanks to her ability to bypass and cover potholes, but her advantage shouldn't be overstated; it's possible to clear this chapter in 4 turns with no fliers.

Chapter 24: With the Boots and a Reyson vigor, Titania and Marcia can single-handedly execute a 3-turn clear. Marcia has more flexibility thanks to her ability to fly over the river, but Titania has the durability (with the Knight Ward) and offense to break through the bridge.

I agree that no turns are saved by Marcia in these chapters, but Marcia's advantage over Titania in 23 is clear. Regardless, I won't award Marcia any turns.

Chapter 25: Marcia is on of the best units in this chapter, though her mediocre durability is more noticeable on this chapter than any other (well, maybe C28). Marcia can fly up to the north to kill enemies, but she needs to be careful. She can drop off a more durable foot unit to take the heat if she's not up for it. Alternately, if Jill is recruited, Marcia can lure and kill Gromell and then help clear the west or east. The best Titania can do is clear out some enemies in the south.

I'm going to go ahead and give Marcia 3 turns for this chapter, because two fliers make a huge difference since Jill isn't around. 27 turns.

Chapter 26: Titania and Marcia are equally capable at leading the charge to Bertram; another great performance by both units. Titania might have a slight advantage thanks to her superior durability.

Chapter 27: Titania and Marcia are, again, almost identically useful. They can help kill Hafedd or Arrive. Titania's guaranteed ability to wield Silver Axe forges might allow her to ORKO some Generals that Marcia cannot.

That sounds alright to me. By the way, those Generals just guard the doors anyway and siege tome users can take care of them. It's no big deal. No turns awarded to either.

Chapter 28: Marcia can assist in a straight-forward 3-turn clear over the trees. She needs to let Ike take the burden of the combat, because the laguz here can tear through her mediocre durability. It is my belief that there exist more involved 3-turn clears that go the long way 'round. If true, Titania and Marcia are equally capable in such clears.

Endgame: Marcia and Titania can help clear the way for Ike and Elincia in the conventional clears. Marcia's flight might be a slight advantage here.

I'll award Marcia 1 turn for 28 and nothing else. 28 turns.

Marcia: 28 turns

Titania: 9 turns

This post is a little long so I'll save the counterargument to Titania taking credit for Jill and Tanith's turn cuts for later.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Aeine

[aku chi]

How does Oscar contribute as much as Jill does when Jill has one thing Titania doesn't have, which is flight?

I assumed you read this post, since you responded to it... I don't care to repeat my arguments. Bring up something relevant in response to my argument and I'll reply.

How does Titania have just as many contributions as Marcia/Jill in terms of potential ones?

Maybe you should read the whole post before responding. And while your belief that Marcia is more valuable than Titania is clearly wrong, your belief that Jill is more valuable than Titania is laughable.

Titania may be the most valuable unit in all of these chapters, but the number of turns she saves is minimal if you play well with your other characters. In fact, she saves 1 from Chapter 1, 1 from Chapter 2, 1-2 from Chapter 3. I'll go ahead and give you 2 turns for Chapter 3. 4 turns so far.

Shinon can 2-round the boss with a crit, and considering Shinon's amazing crit, it's quite reliable. Titania does make this map "easier," (I prefer to use the term simpler strategy) but she cuts no turns.

Assuming Titania isn't used at all and Oscar gets a lot of kills, I wouldn't be surprised if Oscar could 5-turn this chapter. Titania cuts a turn from here. 5 turns so far.

I agree that Titania has awesome contributions in this chapter, and she's probably at her best here. When you think about it, though, if you don't use Titania at all, your other characters like Oscar, Ike and Boyd will gain absurd amounts of experience relative to a normal playthrough, so they'll have an easier time clearing this chapter. I would say a 7 turn sounds suitable without Titania, so I'll go ahead and give her 3 turns for this chapter. 8 turns so far for Titania.

Bullshit. I call bullshit on each and every one of these. But I want to particularly highlight the pile of crap that is a 5-turn clear of C6 without Titania. If you want anyone to buy these turds, you better back them up.

It's a clear exaggeration to say Titania dominates. Assuming that Oscar is used regularly instead of Titania, he can basically be promoted at this stage with bexp and replicate what Titania can do. Even if he can't promote, there are so many enemies he could be promoted towards the end of this chapter. I don't think Titania's contribution in this chapter is unique at all. No turns awarded.

Titania has 9 mov, is practically invulnerable, and can ORKO every enemy except the boss. If that's not dominating, I don't know what is. As for uniqueness, both Titania and Oscar are required for the most efficient clears of this chapter. You cannot 4-turn clear this chapter without Titania. You cannot 6-turn clear this chapter while recruiting Marcia without Titania.

As you said yourself, neither Marcia nor Titania have an advantage over each other. I won't award either of them an advantage here.

Giving Marcia all of your Bexp to promote before C10 is not optimal. Titania contributes to C10 clears considerably more than Marcia.

This chapter can be done without Marcia, but not without Titania. On your LTC strategies, you found a strategy with Marcia and a Paladin and a strategy with Titania + 2 Paladins. It seems that Marcia's contribution to this chapter is unique, because her presence means that you don't need to promote Oscar and Kieran, which in itself is ridiculous in the first place. I'll go ahead and award Marcia 1 turn for this chapter.

...

I'm having a difficult time understanding how you think. The most straight-forward 3-turn clear involves Titania and Marcia. If you want to clear this chapter in 3 turns without Titania, you need to promote {Oscar or Kieran} and Marcia. If you want to clear this chapter in 3 turns without Marcia, you need to promote Oscar and Kieran - which takes less Bexp. How on earth do you credit Marcia with an advantage?

Assuming that Jill isn't even recruited, which is the most efficient way to use Marcia, Marcia is unique in her ablity to clear this chapter. I'm unsure how to award Marcia for her contributions in this chapter considering that a Sage requires bonus experience to use. I'll give Marcia 3 turns here just because using a Sage requires a lot of bonus experience in addition to the experience we've already given Marcia. 10 turns for Marcia.

Holy double-standards!!! I can't seriously respond to you any further, because you're absolutely insane. You credit Titania for no "cut turns" in C9 because you (mistakenly) believe that a promoted Oscar could replicate her performance. Yet you credit Marcia for 3 "cut turns" in C15 despite there being myriad ways to clear this chapter in 2 or 3 turns without Marcia. Insane!

Your response arguably gets more ridiculous beyond this point. So, goodday sir. I can no longer take you seriously in the arena of debate.

Edited August 11, 2012 by aku chi

[-Cynthia-]

Regarding assumptions regarding recruitment, both situations in which we are only using Marcia, only using Jill, and using both should be considered, with the last one holding the most weight (because Jill is a good unit and thus has a high chance of being on the team). Marcia saves more turns than Titania when she's the only flier we're fielding but that seems more like a rare case to me than what the standard should be.

[aku chi]

Regarding assumptions regarding recruitment, both situations in which we are only using Marcia, only using Jill, and using both should be considered, with the last one holding the most weight (because Jill is a good unit and thus has a high chance of being on the team). Marcia saves more turns than Titania when she's the only flier we're fielding but that seems more like a rare case to me than what the standard should be.

A team with Titania but neither Marcia nor Jill can complete the game faster than a team with Marcia and/or Jill but without Titania. The Titania team loses some ground in C15 and C17 but Tanith can do whatever Marcia can do in chapters 18 and beyond. If we consider playing without Titania vs. playing without Marcia, it's not even close. Titania is clearly more valuable by this metric. I challenge anyone to formulate a consistent, relevant metric by which Titania isn't the most valuable unit.

Cynthia, what of Oscar > Jill? Oscar and Jill in the same tier, at the least, has been unanimous after posting my argument.

[Hawk King]

You are both silly.

Aku chi, you greatly exaggerate Titania in Chp 6 and 7. And all of Earlygame for that matter.

Aeine, you greatly exaggerated 17-2 and 17-4. Using a very limited draft team, I got 4 and 3 turn clears, using ROLF. And with a full team 17-2 is easily 3 turns without a flyer, hell any mount with or without the boots should be able to 3 turn 17-2. Just because Titania cant clear them as well as Marcia it doesnt mean other units cant be used instead. Marcia wins by 1 and 2 turns in these Maps.

Thats just what stuck out to me.

Instead of theory crafting, which you are both bad at, why you just play the game. Aku chi can play with no Titania use and Aeine with no Marcia use. That way you can see just exactly how useful your prefered "goddess" is, by not having them.

[Chiki]

I assumed you read this post, since you responded to it... I don't care to repeat my arguments. Bring up something relevant in response to my argument and I'll reply.

Maybe you should read the whole post before responding. And while your belief that Marcia is more valuable than Titania is clearly wrong, your belief that Jill is more valuable than Titania is laughable.

Bullshit. I call bullshit on each and every one of these. But I want to particularly highlight the pile of crap that is a 5-turn clear of C6 without Titania. If you want anyone to buy these turds, you better back them up.

Titania has 9 mov, is practically invulnerable, and can ORKO every enemy except the boss. If that's not dominating, I don't know what is. As for uniqueness, both Titania and Oscar are required for the most efficient clears of this chapter. You cannot 4-turn clear this chapter without Titania. You cannot 6-turn clear this chapter while recruiting Marcia without Titania.

Giving Marcia all of your Bexp to promote before C10 is not optimal. Titania contributes to C10 clears considerably more than Marcia.

...

I'm having a difficult time understanding how you think. The most straight-forward 3-turn clear involves Titania and Marcia. If you want to clear this chapter in 3 turns without Titania, you need to promote {Oscar or Kieran} and Marcia. If you want to clear this chapter in 3 turns without Marcia, you need to promote Oscar and Kieran - which takes less Bexp. How on earth do you credit Marcia with an advantage?

Holy double-standards!!! I can't seriously respond to you any further, because you're absolutely insane. You credit Titania for no "cut turns" in C9 because you (mistakenly) believe that a promoted Oscar could replicate her performance. Yet you credit Marcia for 3 "cut turns" in C15 despite there being myriad ways to clear this chapter in 2 or 3 turns without Marcia. Insane!

Your response arguably gets more ridiculous beyond this point. So, goodday sir. I can no longer take you seriously in the arena of debate.

Why is a chapter 6 5-turn without Titania so unbelievable? Assuming Oscar, Ike and Boyd get the majority of kills in Chapters 1, 2 and 5, they'll be a lot higher leveled than they could have been before. I'm sure I can pull it off with ease.

I credit Marcia 3 "cut turns" in C15 because promoting a Mage in itself by that time is ludicrous--Mages aren't likely to be in play. And we know we don't have Jill, so the only option we have left is Marcia.

Ad hominem, etc. You've lost all your credibility now. Goodbye.

Marcia saves more turns than Titania when she's the only flier we're fielding but that seems more like a rare case to me than what the standard should be.

That's incorrect; because a Boots flier /=/ flier. They're two completely different things. A Boots flier can cut turns like no one else can; and you only get one per playthrough.

Aeine, you greatly exaggerated 17-2 and 17-4. Using a very limited draft team, I got 4 and 3 turn clears, using ROLF. And with a full team 17-2 is easily 3 turns without a flyer, hell any mount with or without the boots should be able to 3 turn 17-2. Just because Titania cant clear them as well as Marcia it doesnt mean other units cant be used instead. Marcia wins by 1 and 2 turns in these Maps.

Okay, so I got a couple turns wrong. Marcia still has a gigantic turn count advantage over Titania.

And how can you clear 17-4 quickly without a flier?

Edited August 11, 2012 by Aeine

[aku chi]

Instead of theory crafting, which you are both bad at, why you just play the game. Aku chi can play with no Titania use and Aeine with no Marcia use. That way you can see just exactly how useful your prefered "goddess" is, by not having them.

I take offense to that. I'd like to think I'm pretty good at theory-crafting! I believe I was the first to suggest and prove that C15 could be cleared in 2 turns without a flier. But it doesn't take any particular theory-crafting prowess to understand that if you give Tanith all of the resources you would have given Marcia, she can make the exact same contributions in chapters 18 and beyond: a fact that Aeine seems unable to grasp.

As for your suggestion, that would result in perverse incentives. If any set of playthroughs could demonstrate which unit is more crippling if not used, it would be Aeine playing without Titania and me playing without Marcia. This wouldn't settle the matter of which unit is more valuable, because it would encompass elements that this tier list considers irrelevant, like the cost of recruiting Marcia and Jill.

[Chiki]

I take offense to that. I'd like to think I'm pretty good at theory-crafting! I believe I was the first to suggest and prove that C15 could be cleared in 2 turns without a flier. But it doesn't take any particular theory-crafting prowess to understand that if you give Tanith all of the resources you would have given Marcia, she can make the exact same contributions in chapters 18 and beyond: a fact that Aeine seems unable to grasp.

As for your suggestion, that would result in perverse incentives. If any set of playthroughs could demonstrate which unit is more crippling if not used, it would be Aeine playing without Titania and me playing without Marcia. This wouldn't settle the matter of which unit is more valuable, because it would encompass elements that this tier list considers irrelevant, like the cost of recruiting Marcia and Jill.

This is another problem I have with tiering. Why does Titania get credit for what Tanith can do? It should be a point against her that she can't replicate what Tanith/Jill can do in a debate of Marcia vs. Titania.

[Hawk King]

17-4,

turn 1- move or rescue/drop your boss killer to the edge of the swamp

turn 2- Smite, Shove, Shove, (more shoves are possible but not necessary for a foot unit) Then full move.

turn 3- Move up and ORKO Oliver.

Same basic strategy for 17-2.

Oh and Soren can ORKO Muarim fairly easily. Without the Bexp dump on Marcia we should have plenty to spare... unless your Aku chi who will dump it into Titania instead because apparently thats the only way to compare Titania to Marcia.

[Shotguner159]

unless your Aku chi who will dump it into Titania instead because apparently thats the only way to compare Titania to Marcia.

Wasn't he just doing that for the sake of his comparison, and noted that Titania has the advantage of not actually NEEDING the resources to be used.

[Chiki]

17-4,

turn 1- move or rescue/drop your boss killer to the edge of the swamp

turn 2- Smite, Shove, Shove, (more shoves are possible but not necessary for a foot unit) Then full move.

turn 3- Move up and ORKO Oliver.

Same basic strategy for 17-2.

Oh and Soren can ORKO Muarim fairly easily. Without the Bexp dump on Marcia we should have plenty to spare... unless your Aku chi who will dump it into Titania instead because apparently thats the only way to compare Titania to Marcia.

Soren actually needs to be level 10 promoted to ORKO Muarim, 6 with the Speedwings.

It should go without saying that giving Soren the Speedwings is stupid.

Marcia is obviously the only way to go in that comparison.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Aeine

[Dark Sage]

Wasn't he just doing that for the sake of his comparison, and noted that Titania has the advantage of not actually NEEDING the resources to be used.

Yes, but people like to misrepresent their opponents in tier debates because they think it makes them look better.

[aku chi]

This is another problem I have with tiering. Why does Titania get credit for what Tanith can do? It should be a point against her that she can't replicate what Tanith/Jill can do in a debate of Marcia vs. Titania.

*sigh

Titania makes loads of unique contributions in the early game. No other unit can do what she does. With the exception of C12 and C17-2, Marcia's contributions can be replicated by Jill or Tanith. Marcia should absolutely get credit for non-unique contributions that only the fliers can make, but not as much as Titania's unique early-game contributions.

I don't know what your (deeply flawed) "cut turns" arithmetic was supposed to demonstrate. If it was intended to demonstrate how a Titania-less team compared with a Marcia-less team, the Titania-less team only has advantages in C12, C17-2, {either C17-4 or C19}, and maybe C25. The Marcia-less team does just as well in all other chapters (and much better in 1-10) because that team still has Tanith and might have Jill. If it was meant to demonstrate how well Marcia and Titania could perform in solo runs, the Marcia run never gets past C1. Neither demonstration, BTW, is strictly relevant to this tier list. As I understand it, this tier list measures positive contributions (the ones I enumerated in my argument), not losses due to absense. This is a subtle distinction, but an important one.

[Hawk King]

Yeah, I give Soren the speedwings. and he can destroy everything. Getting him to LV 20/6 or 10 really wont take that much. Plus forge Thunder has high crit and Soren has Adept so doubling isnt 100% necessary...

Jill's recruitment cost is much high for Marcia than it is for Titania. Therefore it can be assumed that Marcia will skip Jill and Titania will recruit Jill.

I believe everyone told me a 3 turn of 11 was impossible without promoting Marcia. I came up with a 3 turn that doesnt require Marcia at all or either Paladin to promote. You guys keep getting your facts wrong when talking about Chp 11.

[-Cynthia-]

A team with Titania but neither Marcia nor Jill can complete the game faster than a team with Marcia and/or Jill but without Titania. The Titania team loses some ground in C15 and C17 but Tanith can do whatever Marcia can do in chapters 18 and beyond. If we consider playing without Titania vs. playing without Marcia, it's not even close. Titania is clearly more valuable by this metric. I challenge anyone to formulate a consistent, relevant metric by which Titania isn't the most valuable unit.

Cynthia, what of Oscar > Jill? Oscar and Jill in the same tier, at the least, has been unanimous after posting my argument.

I moved Oscar and Kieran into the Top tier since no one seemed to argue in favor of that tier gap.

[Hawk King]

^ I think there should be 1 Top tier with all 5 units in it. None of them are so good to earn a higher tier. if anything bump Kier down a tier.

[Chiki]

*sigh

Titania makes loads of unique contributions in the early game. No other unit can do what she does. With the exception of C12 and C17-2, Marcia's contributions can be replicated by Jill or Tanith. Marcia should absolutely get credit for non-unique contributions that only the fliers can make, but not as much as Titania's unique early-game contributions

I'm sorry, but you've actually started lying. You know full well that the bolded part isn't true at all. I'm going to use your own LTC strategies thread to prove you wrong.

I'm comparing to compare Marcia and Jill to each other, and then Marcia and Tanith to determine their advantages over each other.

Marcia vs. Jill:

1. Marcia contributes to 3-turning Chapter 10 without promoted Oscar.

2. How can Marcia's contributions to Chapter 11 be replicated by Jill or Tanith? They don't even exist. Your LTC strategies list 2 different 3 turns: one requiring Marcia and one requiring 2 Paladins.

3. Marcia saves 3 turns in Chapter 12, as you said.

4. Jill can't be shoved in Chapter 14 since you don't have the Demi Band, so she can't be replaced by Marcia. It has to be done by someone else, like a Paladin.

5. Promoted Jill can't ORKO Muarim, which prevents us from getting the pacifism exp. Your thread says that if Jill is promoted and doesn't have 16 AS, it's possible to get the pacifism bexp. However, Jill on average has 16 speed at level 1 promoted, ignoring the fact that she'd likely be at level 5 or so if she were trained. Jill can't let us get pacifism bexp, Marcia can.

6. Marcia saves one turn in Chapter 17-2, as you said once again.

7. Jill can't double the ravens in Chapter 18, which actually costs us a turn if she gets used (since she'd get targeted by ravens, and would have to use the inaccurate Laguz weapons).

8. Jill can't one round Homasa, so that's 1 turn in Marcia's favor right there.

9. Jill can't double Ena, and the only way to 4-turn this chapter is to either get a crit or double hit Ena with a siege tome user. And Ena has gigantic resistance, with base Calill doing only 5 damage I believe. Marcia saves us a turn from Chapter 21 over Jill.

10. Jill can't double Petrine, and Petrine has gigantic resistance. In fact, Jill has 44 might at level 15 promoted, and she only does 22 damage to Petrine. Petrine would have 19 hp and 18 res left. One would have to use two siege tome uses to finish off Petrine, as opposed to one. And I don't think Reyson can reach the siege tome user in this chapter. In fact, Jill needs two Speedwings just to double her, which seems like an awful waste.

11. Jill does a little better in Chapter 25, though a 3-turn is still possible with Marcia.

12. Jill has to be level 19 promoted to double Bertram without the Speedwings.

I don't think I even have to compare Marcia and Tanith. Marcia does a ridiculous amount of the work in Chapters 10 from 18 that Tanith will never be able to do.

And you're guilty of the same thing you're accusing me of. Titania and promoted Oscar can be switched after Chapter 8, with Oscar performing all of Titania's main duties and vice versa.

I believe everyone told me a 3 turn of 11 was impossible without promoting Marcia. I came up with a 3 turn that doesnt require Marcia at all or either Paladin to promote. You guys keep getting your facts wrong when talking about Chp 11.

Sorry, but the bet (at least on my side) was having unpromoted Marcia reach the Arrive square, not that.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Aeine

[aku chi]

Aeine, you're confusing me. What, exactly, are you trying to prove? And by what means?

I'm sorry, but you've actually started lying. You know full well that the bolded part isn't true at all.

I was imprecise, not incorrect. Sometimes it's a unit other than Jill or Tanith that renders Marcia's contributions not unique. To clarify: a contribution is only unique if it cannot be replicated by other means.

I'm comparing to compare Marcia and Jill to each other, and then Marcia and Tanith to determine their advantages over each other.

And I have no idea why you're doing so.

1. Marcia contributes to 3-turning Chapter 10 without promoted Oscar.

Not so. In the video you link, Lethe could have rescued Ike on turn 1. Then Oscar could have replicated Marcia's role.

2. How can Marcia's contributions to Chapter 11 be replicated by Jill or Tanith? They don't even exist. Your LTC strategies list 2 different 3 turns: one requiring Marcia and one requiring 2 Paladins.

You just made my point: Marcia is not necessary for a 3-turn clear.

24. Jill can't be shoved in Chapter 14 since you don't have the Demi Band, so she can't be replaced by Marcia. It has to be done by someone else, like a Paladin.

Correct.

5. Promoted Jill can't ORKO Muarim, which prevents us from getting the pacifism exp. Your thread says that if Jill is promoted and doesn't have 16 AS, it's possible to get the pacifism bexp. However, Jill on average has 16 speed at level 1 promoted, ignoring the fact that she'd likely be at level 5 or so if she were trained. Jill can't let us get pacifism bexp, Marcia can.

This is a decent point. Marcia is a little more valuable than Jill here. Super Soren, can, however, replicate Super Marcia's performace (with more reliability, to boot).

I don't think I even have to compare Marcia and Tanith. Marcia does a ridiculous amount of the work in Chapters 10 from 18 that Tanith will never be able to do.

Again, I don't know what you're trying to prove. Obviously, over the course of the game, Marcia is more valuable than Tanith. But Tanith can replicate every individual contribution of Marcia's in chapter 18 and beyond if we give her the same resources. That was my point.

I And you're guilty of the same thing you're accusing me of. Titania and promoted Oscar can be switched after Chapter 8, with Oscar performing all of Titania's main duties and vice versa.

I am not guilty of confusing unique contributions with potential contributions. Please read my argument again. I credit Titania with unique performances in chapters 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, and 9. If you want to continue talking about unique contributions, be my guest. It's only hurting your case. I'm also willing to discuss Marcia and Titania's potential contributions, which have value even when they can be replicated by other units.

[dondon151]

Shinon can 2-round the boss with a crit, and considering Shinon's amazing crit, it's quite reliable. Titania does make this map "easier," (I prefer to use the term simpler strategy) but she cuts no turns.

uh what how is shinon not going to get completely surrounded if he is going to make his way to the boss in 2 turns

[PKL]

uh what how is shinon not going to get completely surrounded if he is going to make his way to the boss in 2 turns

This is what I thought too. Too many soldiers.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Ghost Marcia Drafter

[Chiki]

Aeine, you're confusing me. What, exactly, are you trying to prove? And by what means?

That Marcia can't be replaced by Jill/Tanith because she has a lot of things over them, and that Titania's earlygame is overrated.

Not so. In the video you link, Lethe could have rescued Ike on turn 1. Then Oscar could have replicated Marcia's role.

What??? Ike was 3 tiles away from Lethe....

You just made my point: Marcia is not necessary for a 3-turn clear.

How likely is it for 2 Paladins in addition to Titania to exist at this point in the game, compared to a promoted Marcia? I've seen many players give Marcia a bexp dump on Chapter 11, but never 2 Paladins.

This is a decent point. Marcia is a little more valuable than Jill here. Super Soren, can, however, replicate Super Marcia's performace (with more reliability, to boot).

Soren needs to be exactly level 10 promoted and level 6 promoted with Speedwings. How do you suggest we find the exp and resources for this?

Again, I don't know what you're trying to prove. Obviously, over the course of the game, Marcia is more valuable than Tanith. But Tanith can replicate every individual contribution of Marcia's in chapter 18 and beyond if we give her the same resources. That was my point.

Using Boots Tanith means losing turns in 16, 17-2 and 17-4. Using Tanith > Marcia/Jill means saving bonus experience and resources (Energy Drop, Seraph Robe, Dracoshield etc.) that could have otherwise gone to other units for better chapter clears. How can that be justified?

uh what how is shinon not going to get completely surrounded if he is going to make his way to the boss in 2 turns

Smart positioning / luring with other units, especially Ike, who takes priority over Shinon due to being a lord.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Aeine

[dondon151]

Smart positioning / luring with other units, especially Ike, who takes priority over Shinon due to being a lord.

there are 10 melee enemy units; you're telling me that all but 2-3 of them are going to go after units that can counter or have higher concrete durability than shinon (remember that shinon has provoke)?

or that ike/soren are not going to somehow die, because ike's durability is pretty much trash at that point in the game?