some details of my current playthrough

[nflchamp]

Except by not clearing out all the armors on the right side, you will not be able to get Heather down to the bottom floor so she can steal the shield from ludveck, in addition to getting the arms scroll for some free money.

So I don't see your point.

Flyers and Leanne allow you to just plop Heather in range of the shield and steal it on whatever turn you feel like. No danger so long as you kill Ludveck on the same turn.

.... you do realize that the general with the shield is in the very back, right?

Heather has 7 move and Pass. The general isn't that far back.

Also, I only want the Arms scroll if I can get it to the GM. And it is only questionably worth getting then.

The arms scroll is a free 4000 gold, so I don't know why it's "questionable". The reason why people now think the GMs are rolling in money is because we are shipping over various items for them to sell, and the arms scroll is one of them.

If I can ship so much stuff over (including this arms scroll) that I can't use all the gold I get, is it really important that I suddenly take out one 4000 gold item?

Yes, that is the idea. I'm not saying that the items won't make other chapters go faster indirectly by improving characters. I'm saying you're not completing this chapter as quickly as possible solely to improve characters for later. Are you not understanding what I meant when I said the chapter was nothing but self-improvement for characters?

No, I understood completely. That doesn't justify you complaining about it.

How about you take your own criticism and start reading my posts?

... I have no idea what you're talking about. by getting the items like energy drop, I make my team stronger and make future chapters easier. Why should it matter if they're only "tools for improving a character" if they make the game go by faster either way?

So are you going to sit here and complain about the energy drop/shield/etc. being "tools for self-improvement", or are you actually going to tell me why going faster >>> going slower but getting these items?

Alright, smash, I'm going to run through the series of posts so you can understand what I'm talking about as you apparently can't remember/re-read what this discussion is about.

1)You say Lethe sucks at tanking the left stairs untransformed.

2)I bring up how Lethe should be tanking transformed.

3)You say that Lethe can't stay transformed without hogging Olivi Grass.

4)I say that you can use a second person to tank so Lethe can rework up her gauge.

5)You complain about how using two people to tank is bad.

6)I bring up how we can beat the chapter at any point we feel like and how the chapter is just about self-improvement anyways (aka it doesn't matter we're using two people to tank).

7)You bring up how we lose out on items if we win on turn 1.

8)I correct you and tell you that I said we could win at anytime, not just turn 1. I proceed to point out how getting items you complained about missing out is still just about self-improvement.

9)You still don't understand what I'm saying and tell how obtain said items help the team in the future. You also say we have to push through the general swarm to get all items.

10)I agree that obtain the items will speed up future chapters, but tell you that does nothing to change the fact that the chapter is still completely about self-improvement. I also tell you how you don't need to push through the general swarm.

11)You somehow think that I'm complaining about getting the items, despite the fact that I have yet to say that we shouldn't get them (because we probably should). You also prove that you either can't count or can't think critically.

In other words, all I'm saying here is that the chapter is solely about self-improvement. I haven't made any assertion here that not getting the items or drawing the chapter out is the wrong thing to do, just that having two people tank the left stairs isn't a problem.

Edit: Fixed my crappy quotes.

Edited September 8, 2009 by nflchamp

[Narga_Rocks]

I would just like to take this moment to repost this:

Hey, can someone remind me what the point of this topic is? Is smash trying to prove something?

That's a good question. Let's look at this via deduction.

smash opens by claiming that "this board" thinks Aran doesn't help clear the game more quickly, weasel wording that fails to cite any evidence for this assertion at all. After a series of words in quotations marks that were not quotes, and hyperbole to the max, smash proceeds to defend himself against people who accuse him of poor strategy by giving examples with elementary strategic mistakes in them. Meanwhile, two posters get to counter everything that smash says for free, since never publicly acknowledges anything that they say (presumably because he has them on "ignore").

As far as I can tell, the point of the topic is to show people the meaning of "irony".

Emphasis on the line I underlined and the one I bolded.

[Progenitus]

Heather has 7 move and Pass. The general isn't that far back.

Heather reaching the enemy isn't the problem. It's rescuing her afterwards. You'll pretty much have to clear out the bottom area for your flier to be able to go straight to Heather, rescue her, and then canto back onto the top ledge. Clearing out the area with Elincia as she kills one enemy at a time (or maybe two, if Leanne chants her) is possible, but then that means Elincia ends up spending less turns using staves, which net a lot more exp.

Regardless, what you (and many other people in this topic) fail to realize is that there is more than one way to play the game. The tier player, in fact, is not assumed to use the exact same team, and the exact same strategy, every single time he plays through the game, since the tier player is supposed to somewhat reflect actual players, and not every player is the same. Good units are assumed to simply be used more often than bad ones, not always used. I fail to see why strategy shouldn't be the same, considering some strategies are only possible with certain units (e.g. only certain units can 1-turn 2-E). Sure, "good" strategies should be given more weight than "bad" strategies (a bad strategy would be, like, boss abusing, or letting herons attack with magic cards, or routing 2-3, etc.), but I've yet to see anything which suggests that airdropping Heather so she can steal and then rescuing her with a flier which most likely requires clearing out the bottom area anyway (and then doing other stuff like killing the general who has the energy drop) is far superior to simply clearing out the right side.

If I can ship so much stuff over (including this arms scroll) that I can't use all the gold I get, is it really important that I suddenly take out one 4000 gold item?

Getting the arms scroll means you can skip out on other forms of money. For example, if you plan on getting the 2-E arms scroll, you can keep a gem with the DB (who also have things they want to buy), or something similar.

In addition, more money just means more forges, which means you can afford to use more crappy units (or even, just spam forges more often, or add crit to weapons for the hell of it, as I only regularly forge crit onto units who have innate crit like Mia or Shinon. Otherwise it's just max mt/some hit).

Alright, smash, I'm going to run through the series of posts so you can understand what I'm talking about as you apparently can't remember/re-read what this discussion is about.

1)You say Lethe sucks at tanking the left stairs untransformed.

2)I bring up how Lethe should be tanking transformed.

3)You say that Lethe can't stay transformed without hogging Olivi Grass.

4)I say that you can use a second person to tank so Lethe can rework up her gauge.

5)You complain about how using two people to tank is bad.

6)I bring up how we can beat the chapter at any point we feel like and how the chapter is just about self-improvement anyways (aka it doesn't matter we're using two people to tank).

7)You bring up how we lose out on items if we win on turn 1.

8)I correct you and tell you that I said we could win at anytime, not just turn 1. I proceed to point out how getting items you complained about missing out is still just about self-improvement.

9)You still don't understand what I'm saying and tell how obtain said items help the team in the future. You also say we have to push through the general swarm to get all items.

10)I agree that obtain the items will speed up future chapters, but tell you that does nothing to change the fact that the chapter is still completely about self-improvement. I also tell you how you don't need to push through the general swarm.

11)You somehow think that I'm complaining about getting the items, despite the fact that I have yet to say that we shouldn't get them (because we probably should). You also prove that you either can't count or can't think critically.

In other words, you didn't even respond to my question. You're STILL complaining about how the items are "self-improvement".

BTW, saying that you "have yet to say" it doesn't mean crap when you're implying it. by saying "oh, this chapter is for self-improvement only blah blah blah performance doesn't matter etc. etc. etc. it doesn't matter if we hurt our efficiency by having two people tank the left stairs rather than one", you are implying that the items don't matter.

That's like me listing a bunch of stupid things Bush has done and then when someone accuses me of saying Bush is stupid, I go "well I never said it DIRECTLY!!!"

[grandjackal]

Isn't the entire start of this topic basically you trying to show that Aran isn't a negative early on in a tier standing?

[Jaybee]

Expounding on that...

Could someone remind me why Smash went on to Makalov when the point was to show how Aran helps?

[Interceptor]

Heather reaching the enemy isn't the problem. It's rescuing her afterwards. You'll pretty much have to clear out the bottom area for your flier to be able to go straight to Heather, rescue her, and then canto back onto the top ledge. Clearing out the area with Elincia as she kills one enemy at a time (or maybe two, if Leanne chants her) is possible, but then that means Elincia ends up spending less turns using staves, which net a lot more exp.

This paragraph here encapsulates the problem that people have when discussing anything with you.

Firstly, you ignored the context of nflchamp's objection. Let us look at a quick summary of what happened, here:

- nflchamp states that fliers and Leanne allows you to steal the Draco on whatever turn you feel like, provided that you kill Ludveck on the same turn.

- You counter by pointing out that the general with the shield is in the very back.

- nflchamp points out that Heather has 7MV and Pass, so it's not a problem to get her there.

- You counter that the problem isn't "getting there", it's "rescuing her".

Well, any schoolchild can see the disconnect, here. You completely ignored nflchamp's statement about killing Ludveck on the same turn. Given that killing Ludveck ends the chapter, Rescuing Heather doesn't even enter into the equation.

Secondly, not only is your counter-argument based on an invalid premise, but you run with it and "solve" the problem, as you are wont to do, by doing something ridiculous. In this case, you have Elincia clear the entire bottom floor -- something that nobody here suggested at all -- and turn around and present this eminently silly strategy as support for your original point.

This doesn't even get into the potential of Narga's pacifist versin of the strategy where Ludveck doesn't even have to die.

Regardless, what you (and many other people in this topic) fail to realize is that there is more than one way to play the game. The tier player, in fact, is not assumed to use the exact same team, and the exact same strategy, every single time he plays through the game, since the tier player is supposed to somewhat reflect actual players, and not every player is the same. Good units are assumed to simply be used more often than bad ones, not always used.

This is not, in fact, the case. Firstly, your completely unsubstantiated claim that people in this thread "fail to realize" that there is more than one way to play the game, is absurd on its face. There is not a single person posting in this thread that believes what you are accusing them of. Not a one has even suggested such a thing.

Secondly, the "tier player" is nothing more than a somewhat-convenient way to represent the goals of a tier list. As such, the definition of what a "tier player" is, will be linked to what the goals of a tier list are. Evidence exists right on this website of different tier lists with differing goals, which in turn suggests different models for "tier players". All that you are doing is just asserting that your definition of "tier player" -- aka your idea of tier goals -- is the correct way to do things. How is it that even possible?

Thirdly -- and this is related to point #2, but I'm spinning it off on its own -- your assertion that a tier player is supposed to "reflect actual players" assumes that such a thing is even true in the first place. To that, I say: how can you even adjudicate what an average player will do? Tiering for efficiency whilst simultaneously assuming that the tiering process reflects the average player introduces an inherent conflict: average players do not play efficiently.

By allowing this contradiction to exist, you turn a tier list with clear goals into a mushy psychology experiment that attempts to predict what Joe Blow will do. Actions that run completely counter to the standard of efficient play are rewarded if they are "likely" to happen, with "likely" being a hole so wide that a blind man could drive an 18-wheeler through it sideways.

I fail to see why strategy shouldn't be the same, considering some strategies are only possible with certain units (e.g. only certain units can 1-turn 2-E). Sure, "good" strategies should be given more weight than "bad" strategies (a bad strategy would be, like, boss abusing, or letting herons attack with magic cards, or routing 2-3, etc.), but I've yet to see anything which suggests that airdropping Heather so she can steal and then rescuing her with a flier which most likely requires clearing out the bottom area anyway (and then doing other stuff like killing the general who has the energy drop) is far superior to simply clearing out the right side.

Your failure to be convinced of the value of the air-drop Heather strategy is not an indication that the strategy is inferior. It is, instead, an indication that you do not comprehend the strategy at all.

Getting the arms scroll means you can skip out on other forms of money. For example, if you plan on getting the 2-E arms scroll, you can keep a gem with the DB (who also have things they want to buy), or something similar.

In addition, more money just means more forges, which means you can afford to use more crappy units (or even, just spam forges more often, or add crit to weapons for the hell of it, as I only regularly forge crit onto units who have innate crit like Mia or Shinon. Otherwise it's just max mt/some hit).

Your counter is nonsense. The value of money for each army has already been analyzed in great detail. What happens is, excess money gives you diminishing returns on the benefit that you get from it. In other words, once you satisfy the Dawn Brigade's immediate and most important needs (forges, Physics, reasonable 1-2 range, Olivi Grass, etc), throwing more money at the "problem" does not actually result in much in the way of actual gains towards efficient game completion, because you're left buying things that have a small impact on gameplay. The low-hanging fruit has already been picked.

This also goes for doing silly things like forging crit weapons for units without innate crit. You spend an absurd amount of money to create said weapon, but you're putting it on a unit that either 1) has some of the crit eaten up by enemy LCK, or 2) they fail to double or have some other flaw that prevents the crit that's left from doing very much at all. In short, you spend gobs of money to increase some Upper Mid tier unit's (or worse) ability to maybe kill a specific subset of units a single digit percentage more often.

Sure, it will help you out, but the cost/benefit ratio is not very shiny at all. The logical conclusion here is that it's not always a good use of your time to touch every possible gold source, and at the very least the gains in efficiency are markedly reduced.

In other words, you didn't even respond to my question. You're STILL complaining about how the items are "self-improvement".

BTW, saying that you "have yet to say" it doesn't mean crap when you're implying it. by saying "oh, this chapter is for self-improvement only blah blah blah performance doesn't matter etc. etc. etc. it doesn't matter if we hurt our efficiency by having two people tank the left stairs rather than one", you are implying that the items don't matter.

That's like me listing a bunch of stupid things Bush has done and then when someone accuses me of saying Bush is stupid, I go "well I never said it DIRECTLY!!!"

Actually, nflchamp is correct. The problem here is not with his implication, it's with your inference, aka you are seeing arguments where they do not exist. I just re-read all of his posts, and he's exceedingly careful to always be precise about the point he is trying to make. For example, he says very early on that weight should rightfully be put on the items in 2-E, as they help with game completion.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Interceptor

[Narga_Rocks]

Heather has 7 move and Pass. The general isn't that far back.

Heather reaching the enemy isn't the problem. It's rescuing her afterwards. You'll pretty much have to clear out the bottom area for your flier to be able to go straight to Heather, rescue her, and then canto back onto the top ledge. Clearing out the area with Elincia as she kills one enemy at a time (or maybe two, if Leanne chants her) is possible, but then that means Elincia ends up spending less turns using staves, which net a lot more exp.

Regardless, what you (and many other people in this topic) fail to realize is that there is more than one way to play the game. The tier player, in fact, is not assumed to use the exact same team, and the exact same strategy, every single time he plays through the game, since the tier player is supposed to somewhat reflect actual players, and not every player is the same. Good units are assumed to simply be used more often than bad ones, not always used. I fail to see why strategy shouldn't be the same, considering some strategies are only possible with certain units (e.g. only certain units can 1-turn 2-E). Sure, "good" strategies should be given more weight than "bad" strategies (a bad strategy would be, like, boss abusing, or letting herons attack with magic cards, or routing 2-3, etc.), but I've yet to see anything which suggests that airdropping Heather so she can steal and then rescuing her with a flier which most likely requires clearing out the bottom area anyway (and then doing other stuff like killing the general who has the energy drop) is far superior to simply clearing out the right side.

Wow, you know, in the past when I've said you suck, I was just exaggerating. Generally, I just figure your skills in this game are mediocre. As in, average, or maybe under average. The fact that you think you have to clear out the bottom area just to get the draco makes me wonder if I give you too much credit. Honestly, you apparently 6 turned 1-8, that would normally make me assume you have decent or better skills. I don't care if you think wasting effort clearing out the general swarm is superior to clearing out the weaker enemies in the west or even not bothering to kill so many enemies and just swiping some items and killing Ludveck. What makes me question your skills is that you can't seem to figure out how to get the draco shield without clearing out the bottom area. People have even given you hints. Not being able to do it without suggestions is fine, but when people give you this much and you still can't...

If anyone wants to play and try to see if they get "better" results than me, feel free, since apparently I'm a terrible strategist. Well, I say apparently, since whenever I "debate" with other ppl on this board, half their counterarguments are "you're terrible at this game". If you're going to sit here and insult my playthrough and not even try the game out on your own, I'm just going to ignore you.

smash proceeds to defend himself against people who accuse him of poor strategy by giving examples with elementary strategic mistakes in them. Meanwhile, two posters get to counter everything that smash says for free, since never publicly acknowledges anything that they say (presumably because he has them on "ignore").

Considering the only stuff I've ever killed in the boss area on HM was the boss, the longbow users, and a small number of enemies in the way of Elincia reaching Ludveck I'd have to say I have tried the game on my own, so "not even try the game out on your own" doesn't really apply here so why are you ignoring me? Oh, right, because to acknowledge Interceptor and me would be to acknowledge that you are wrong rather frequently and are in fact a mediocre strategist. Oh, another fun fact, Haar with a speedwing has 22 speed, and considering the majority of enemies have <=18 speed, I'd have to say

Clearing out the area with Elincia as she kills one enemy at a time (or maybe two, if Leanne chants her)

again betrays a questionable level of tactical skill. Plus, you always talk about how Nealuchi is so much better than Lethe here so he should get more grasses than her. Why isn't he attacking? 27 mt doesn't kill things on it's own, but it leaves a lot of things with few enough hp for Haar to kill even if he isn't doubling. Then you have Marcia thrown in, who should have 2 levels before 2-E starts and get another during the level. 22 speed for her as well means she can get in on the action as well. You reduced 4 units attacking to 1. The 4 of them without Leanne can kill 2 enemies and wound another. Throw in Leanne, and you are looking at 4 per turn with just them. If Haar took the speedwing, 5 per turn. Also 3 without Leanne. Not that I suggest clearing out that area, just that even beyond wanting to do unnecessary things you show your fail even more in the way in which you want to do unnecessary things.

And I'd just like to address this:

Regardless, what you (and many other people in this topic) fail to realize is that there is more than one way to play the game.

and this:

it doesn't matter if we hurt our efficiency by having two people tank the left stairs rather than one

See, your first complaint about having Lethe and Brom trade turns on the west side was that it makes it harder to clear out the general swarm. First off, is Lethe helping you with that? If she is, she's getting strike anyway so since that is all we want to give Lethe here it's not a problem. However, if there is such an issue getting Lethe strike over there then surely she isn't helping your push very much. So there isn't an issue having her and Brom trade turns tanking. So how does it hurt efficiency when it doesn't actually change anything? However, if you think she can get 16 strike on the west but only 6 on the east but somehow you need her 3 attacks in order to clear out the generals, the whole reason to have Heather airdropped and vigored and rescued is that you don't need to clear out the generals. So, now Lethe and Brom can trade and it doesn't matter anymore.

The point is, in precisely one strategy, yours, Lethe and Brom trading on the stairs may seem inefficient to you. In almost every other strategy, some of which are superior to yours anyway, building Lethe's strike would not be inefficient. If there is more than one way to play the game, then how is it inefficient to build Lethe's strike? Especially if we plan to try to use her in part 3?

If a player plans to build Lethe's strike and is actually capable of building a good strategy around that goal, I fail to see how it would be any worse than the way in which you clear out the chapter. Just because you can't figure something out doesn't make it inefficient.

And how is nflchamp implying the items don't matter when we've told you how to get those items without your

push on the right side?

Also, where is your

more than one way to play the game.

when you assume that the only way to clear this chapter is to kill those generals?

And smash, you do realize that you are putting quotes around words he never typed? Congratulations nflchamp, you have earned a "phantom nflchamp". A phantom you has now joined the ranks of the voices that smash hears in his head and thinks they are real people saying these things.

Also @smash, he said

11)You somehow think that I'm complaining about getting the items, despite the fact that I have yet to say that we shouldn't get them (because we probably should). You also prove that you either can't count or can't think critically.

Did you miss the whole we probably should thing? He's not saying don't get the items. He's saying, get the items, build exp, kill Ludveck. Those are the goals of this chapter. As long as you achieve those goals, it's fine. Well, I think that's what he's saying. Anyway, I don't see how doing anything that achieves those goals is inefficient. All this chapter is about is building for the future, and if you plan to use Lethe in the future, I'd have to say not doing what we can to build her strike level now is inefficient.

and Int posted before me. Oh well, karma for the times I get in before him.

[Interceptor]

and Int posted before me. Oh well, karma for the times I get in before him.

Well, it's not like we aren't just basically talking amongst ourselves anyway, seeing as how the original poster has employed the widely-used-but-largely-ineffective Ostrich Strategy when it comes to deal with points that are devastating to his case.

[Narga_Rocks]

This doesn't even get into the potential of Narga's pacifist versin of the strategy where Ludveck doesn't even have to die.

Yet.

Just wanted to say my pacifist version is there to get the grass, and the draco, and not have to kill Ludveck until I feel like it. Also it allows me to have whatever fliers I want help Heather get the dracoshield and then I have all my fliers available and two vigor slots when I finally decide to kill Ludveck. So I can have 6 attackers against Ludveck and friends rather than 4 (1 flier dropped Heather and one of Leanne's vigor slots is taken by Heather, so 3 fliers attacking before vigor and an extra after).

Just in case anyone thinks I'm saying not to defeat Ludveck. I'm just making defeating Ludveck even easier and safer than it already is while still getting the draco.

[Colonel M]

ITT I'm confused on... just about everything that is going on in here. Period.

[Narga_Rocks]

ITT I'm confused on... just about everything that is going on in here. Period.

Read this:

That's a good question. Let's look at this via deduction.

smash opens by claiming that "this board" thinks Aran doesn't help clear the game more quickly, weasel wording that fails to cite any evidence for this assertion at all. After a series of words in quotations marks that were not quotes, and hyperbole to the max, smash proceeds to defend himself against people who accuse him of poor strategy by giving examples with elementary strategic mistakes in them. Meanwhile, two posters get to counter everything that smash says for free, since never publicly acknowledges anything that they say (presumably because he has them on "ignore").

As far as I can tell, the point of the topic is to show people the meaning of "irony".

And this:

Well, it's not like we aren't just basically talking amongst ourselves anyway, seeing as how the original poster has employed the widely-used-but-largely-ineffective Ostrich Strategy when it comes to deal with points that are devastating to his case.

Basically, smash says we are wrong about him having poor strategy while saying things that clearly show he has poor strategy. Int and I then get to call him on it for free since he ignores us and doesn't defend his bad strategy at all. Instead, he employs the Ostrich Strategy. Even when he is "responding" to nflchamp, he's actually responding to "Phantom nflchamp" because if he responded to what the real nflchamp is actually saying he'd have to acknowledge points that are devastating to his case.

Basically, his Ostrich Strategy is used on everyone, not just Int and me.

[Progenitus]

Isn't the entire start of this topic basically you trying to show that Aran isn't a negative early on in a tier standing?

Yes, but as I said to the great haar (since he reminded me), raw turn counts aren't entirely accurate, since reliability/margin of error in beating the chatper matter far more (as long as you're also beating the chapter in a timely matter). I mean, I'm pretty sure that I could skip out on using a high tier like Janaff or Titania in GM chapters and still beat them in the same number of turns (MAYBE 1 or 2 slower), simply because the GMs are so loaded with uber units it doesn't matter if I miss one or two godly units. Hell, I usually do that in a normal playthrough, since I usually replace a couple of godly units with crappy ones I want to use (mostly Soren/Kieran, but there are a few others). This doesn't necessarily mean Janaff or Titania aren't high tier, though.

However, reliability/margin of error are, as far as I know, more or less impossible to measure, in which case the only thing I have left to work with are raw turn counts.

[Interceptor]

Tier list arguments already look at things like reliability, be it through the lens of someone's chance to kill, or their chance to get hit, or chance to die in a certain number of hits. Generally it's known that killing more reliably means faster completion in general (even when the goal is not a Rout), and unintended deaths and/or having to wall units slows down completion.

Sure, it's difficult to quantify some things, and it's implausible to look at every possible circumstance or even a substantial portion of them, but there is no need to oversimplify things to the point of absurdity by merely looking at turn counts.

[grandjackal]

Even then, I'd have to see it with my own eyes, completing chapters as fast as with GM high tiers as you could with GM anyone else. GM has the most lopsided team. The fact we have so many ubers is also the fact why the GM are tailed by so many units that are just absolutely worthless, or damn well close to it (LolRolf, Kyza, Lyre, Soren, Brom, plenty of others).

GM high tiers are just in an absolute class of their own, and the only way you could possibly compare is if your utility is just worth that much (Nolan, Sothe, Volug, Zihark, in which they too have the same deal of just being leagues ahead of the rest of the team for all too long).

In short, there are perhaps ways to make GM lower tiers just as good as the high tiers, but it's just so much easier to just use the high tiers.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Kuja

[nflchamp]

Did you miss the whole we probably should thing? He's not saying don't get the items. He's saying, get the items, build exp, kill Ludveck. Those are the goals of this chapter. As long as you achieve those goals, it's fine. Well, I think that's what he's saying. Anyway, I don't see how doing anything that achieves those goals is inefficient. All this chapter is about is building for the future, and if you plan to use Lethe in the future, I'd have to say not doing what we can to build her strike level now is inefficient.

Nah, you missed it. I'm saying the only goal of the chapter is to kill Ludveck. Considering I can accomplish this goal on turn 1 or 2, everything else I do is solely to improve characters. This includes taking more turns, gaining EXP, obtaining items, and working on strike level. After all, that was what I was initially stating is that 2-E is nothing but a self-improvement chapter.

What smash is ignoring is that I've actually said taking more turns, gaining EXP, etc. > than winning on turn 1 or 2 (at least it usually is) and seems to think I have some problem with obtaining the items.

Oh yeah, and smash has never proven that having two people tank the left stairs in inefficient. Just saying.

[grandjackal]

The point is, if you can end the chapter in one fell swoop, why does that have to be the immediate move? Why not self improve? Just keep going until BEXP limit/whatever is reached, then kill Ludveck, since I could essentially do it whenever. Self-improvement indeed, there's no reason not to when I'm not limited in any ways anyway. Not improving and saying that it's better to just end the chapter instantly, leaving quite a few characters weaker, is worth nothing.

FE8 for example. Seth could solo basically every single map earlygame. Why have him do that, when I could have him rescue someone worthless (Gilliam) to be a weakener, of which not only could I easier power up people, but get through chapters just as fast anyways due to how balls powerful Seth is especially with his tasty steel, allowing anyone to finish off his scraps? Ending the chapter turn 1 is showing off and nothing more.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Kuja

[Narga_Rocks]

Did you miss the whole we probably should thing? He's not saying don't get the items. He's saying, get the items, build exp, kill Ludveck. Those are the goals of this chapter. As long as you achieve those goals, it's fine. Well, I think that's what he's saying. Anyway, I don't see how doing anything that achieves those goals is inefficient. All this chapter is about is building for the future, and if you plan to use Lethe in the future, I'd have to say not doing what we can to build her strike level now is inefficient.

Nah, you missed it. I'm saying the only goal of the chapter is to kill Ludveck. Considering I can accomplish this goal on turn 1 or 2, everything else I do is solely to improve characters. This includes taking more turns, gaining EXP, obtaining items, and working on strike level. After all, that was what I was initially stating is that 2-E is nothing but a self-improvement chapter.

What smash is ignoring is that I've actually said taking more turns, gaining EXP, etc. > than winning on turn 1 or 2 (at least it usually is) and seems to think I have some problem with obtaining the items.

Okay, so technically you aren't saying the goal is to do all of those other things. It's just Ludveck, and in that I can't disagree with you. Well, I could say just block with Mordy and Brom and aside from healing and grassing just hit end turn until the chapter ends naturally. But beating Ludveck is faster and thus more efficient. Anyway, you are saying that there is nothing wrong with doing the other things, and in fact you are recommending it (usually) over winning on turn 1 or 2. Just that doing all those other things is merely self-improvement.

I think I may have misread you because I generally consider self-improvement to be part of my goals, which is why I stuck it into the goals of the chapter as I see them. In chapters like this one, and 2-P and 3-5 and 3-7 I basically see it as nab the items, build experience, etc as the goal. Not just getting to the next chapter.

Oh yeah, and smash has never proven that having two people tank the left stairs in inefficient. Just saying.

In general, I consider it pretty difficult to prove stuff that isn't true to be true, so I'm not surprised he hasn't been able to prove it. It's possible to convince people of untrue things, but if a person isn't already leaning toward an incorrect conclusion it is generally easier to convince that person of true things.

However, in smash's world where the only reasonable way to get the shield and kill Ludveck is to press through the general swarm and for some reason he must have Lethe's assistance to accomplish that task, using Lethe and Brom in the west is inefficient. Honestly, I can't come up with another conclusion. If you have Brom on the left anyway, and using Lethe half the time in that spot is inefficient, then that implies Lethe must be irreplaceable somewhere else on the map. Otherwise, she could sit anywhere, including the guarding spot, and be just as efficient. Thus, it is not inefficient. Therefore, smash considers Lethe to be required help in this chapter and without her helping with the generals you can't do it his way. That seems like a major positive for Lethe that in the tier list he refuses to give her.

If I look at it any other way, then Lethe and Brom combining for the guarding being inefficient makes no sense at all. There is nothing lost by doing it, aside from some experience for a unit that may not even be deployed after 3-2. And if we plan to use Lethe, then I'd have to say finding ways to build her strike is efficient, at least if we are extending the chapter anyway for the items.

[Progenitus]

I got to 3-P.

Literally, my second move (the first being Rolf moved forward so I could see through the fog). Mia attacks an SM. She hits, gets critted on the counter, and dies.

And here I thought crit rates didn't matter unless you're Aran.

[nflchamp]

I got to 3-P.

Literally, my second move (the first being Rolf moved forward so I could see through the fog). Mia attacks an SM. She hits, gets critted on the counter, and dies.

And here I thought crit rates didn't matter unless you're Aran.

Can you get over the fact that 'Aran can be critted in 1-4' is constantly brought up? I'll put it out there so you can understand it.

The crit Aran faces in 1-4 is considered important because every enemy on the map has it on him and Aran is likely to die from any crit he takes during an attack.

The crit pretty much anyone else faces in considered largely unimportant (though it still matters) because it is usually only one or two enemies that pull crit and don't even necessarily need to be attacked by said unit who faces crit. Take your Mia dying for example. There are a billion different things you could have done in admittance that there was a crit rate in order to prevent the possibility from ever occurring, but you simply chose not to.

Edit: I like grammar, I just refuse to use it sometimes.

Edited September 12, 2009 by nflchamp

[BigMeatyClawz]

I got to 1-4.

Literally, my second move (the first being Leo moved forward so I could weaken a cat for Aran). Aran attacks a cat. He hits, gets critted on the counter, and dies.

Replace anyone that faces a crit chance and gets 3HKO'd, and I can make a billion more of these scenarios.

A competent strategist would notice that Mia can die, so why not let Rhys or Soren attack first so Mia can kill him without a counter. Then again you have proven time and time again that you aren't one, so I guess I'm wasting my time.

[Progenitus]

Actually, as I've said about a billion times, Aran ahs 12361234 ways to improve himself. e.g., leveling up and getting lck (reduces the cats' chances to crit to 1, and removes the tigers' entirely), or getting spd (cats no longer double, and they 4HKO Aran at base level), or getting HP + def (cats now 5HKO, which means they have to land double crits, which is basically negligible). Also, against cats, he could take cancel, which helps against cats because he has a chance to negate their 2nd attack on enemy phase. A crit can basically do the same thing too as cancel (he 3HKOs cats with max mt iron at base level).

And then he can level up a second time, which happens after like, 2 kills, and by then it's gg

Let's not forget that Edward himself needs to get the required HP/def to not get OHKO'd by tigers. He has 19 HP/5 def, which means he needs a combination of +3 HP/def. Actually, wait, +3 HP doesn't work, since this puts him at 22 HP/5 def. A 26 att tiger does 21 to him, and a vulnerary only heals 20, which means after one of those tigers attacks and he heals, he's left with 21 HP, where a tiger now kills him off (unless Micaiah sacrifices or Laura heals, which is a gigantic waste). So that's no good. So if he's getting only +3 HP/def, at least one has to be def, or he needs to get +4 or more HP/def.

On average, Edward needs to have gained 3 levels to not get OHKO'd by 26 att tigers. The problem is that Edward is basically useless outside of 1-P. 1-1 Nolan gg solos, and Micaiah/Leo are backup. 1-2 barely has any required fighting since Laura just needs to seize (I usually have Sothe/Nolan/Micaiah kill the stuff around the boss. Edward and Leo kill off the enemies in the southwest so they can reach the chests, which is like 2 enemies or something). 1-3 Edward is liek the worst unit because he's the worst tank and his 1-2 range is worse than Micaiah/Leo/Ilyana.

And unfortunately, Edward has a very real chance of getting HP/def screwed, which means we're sore out of luck.

Oh, but Edward can level up during the chapter too, right? Unfortunately, unlike Aran, if Edward does not have the required HP/def to survive tigers, he can't be anywhere near the frontlines unless he's only facing cats, and glhf with that, since the north is pretty much tigers + cats, and the east is pretty much just tigers. And if he does have enough HP/def, what good will leveling up do? The only combination that won't 2HKO are cat + cat, which almost never happens because again, the north is tiger + cat and the east is mostly tigers.

Supports aren't helping his case either. Leo x Nolan is more or less a given for 1-4, Micaiah doesn't want to break her Sothe support just to go with Edward, Sothe would be retarded to support Edward, and Aran/Ilyana aren't around long enough to support him. Laura won't support him, since that implies she was near him and healing him, which implies he's taking damage, which implies he's tanking, which will get a hearty laugh in response since that implies we don't care about efficiency, having the worst tank be the one taking damage. Plus, for Laura to be in support range, that means Edward is hogging every single decent backliner in 1-4 just to tank since he requires both Ilyana and Micaiah to potshot for him since his offense is balls. What, we throw him Laura too, and leave our other tank with just Leo?

So what does that leave with us if Edward gets lolgg'd? Ilyana, the unit with the same lck as Aran, only 123612361236126 less def? Leo, the guy with even crappier HP/def as Edward? Micaiah? Laura? Meg? Nolan and Sothe are already tanking and we have three fronts. Which means if Edward doesn't get enough HP/def to die, Aran is our third tank ANYWAY regardless of anyone's bitching about his 1% crit that lasts for 2-3 turns because by that point Aran probably leveled up, and even if Edward manages to get the required HP/def, he's only "winning" (and I use that very loosely) for 2-3 turns, and Aran wins for like the other 7.

The crit Aran faces in 1-4 is considered important because every enemy on the map has it on him and Aran is likely to die from any crit he takes during an attack.

The crit pretty much anyone else faces in considered largely unimportant (though it still matters) because it is usually only one or two enemies that pull crit and don't even necessarily need to be attacked by said unit who faces crit. Take your Mia dying for example. There are a billion different things you could have done in admittance that there was a crit rate in order to prevent the possibility from ever occurring, but you simply chose not to.

Actually, the REAL difference is that everyone complains about Aran's, like, 1% chance of getting critted and dying (I ran calculations earlier in the topic. This 1% chance factored in Aran leveling up, possibly getting spd/HP/def/lck/whatever, and then factoring the remaining times he doesn't get those stats and the enemy still crits him) that lasts for like 2-3 turns at best since he just levels up again. But the crit rates Mia sees from a SM, or Boyd from that SM, etc., will likely last the entire game, which means they'll ALWAYS face those crit rates, as opposed to Aran just tanking through for 2-3 turns and then laughing because he levels up again and gg.

So I have a question for you. Why is Stefan in FE9 not at the bottom of the tier list? He has 5 lck and 25% growth, which means liek everything has crit on him. Even if you throw all the ashera icons on him, anything that's using a weapon with +crit (it doesn't even need to be killer weapons. Like, thunder or something) might crit him. So why is Stefan in upper mid, yet Aran is apparently bottom tier for 1-4?

Of course, everything I say is apparently trolling (I'd like to know what rule I broke that made my Mia topic get locked that the other members here haven't broken either), so I don't really mind if this gets ignored. It's what everyone here does best.

Edited September 12, 2009 by pen15

[Narga_Rocks]

if this gets ignored. It's what everyone here does best.

We learned from the master. Be proud of your teaching skills, smash.

(BTW, since we already know how to ignore now, you can stop doing it as a demonstration and actually start responding to people's actual points rather than the stuff you hear from the voices in your head.)

[Interceptor]

I don't feel like finishing this post, but I'm tired of it rotting in a browser window.

---------------

So, once more we have a post from smash that ignores what people are actually saying, misrepresents their real arguments, counters points that nobody actually made, and again relies on inefficient strategies to make a point about Aran's efficiency (with no sense of irony to go along with it). I'd express surprise that it's been left to rot in the su, but at this point I'm sure that people are tired of explaining things to someone who routinely disrepects and ignores them.

Moving on:

--== Point The First: Aran cannot reduce his chance of dying to zero, and still remain useful.

In stark constrast to the claim that Aran has over twelve million ways to improve himself, reality reports he actually only has four:

1) Level-up

2) Eat a Dracoshield

3) Use a critforge

4) Equip Cancel

None of these things will eliminate Aran's chance to die 100% of the time. A Dracoshield, in addition to being a total waste on Aran, still leaves tigers as a threat. A critforge or Cancel will only fire on counterattack, making it useful only against cats, in addition to it not working all of the time due to being chance-based. Plus, the critforge has the additional problem of possibly opening Aran to another enemy Phase attack that he was not expecting, limiting its use it some situations. Level-ups can prevent Aran from getting ORKO'ed, but the stat-ups are random and he won't get what he needs all of the time (or even most of the time). +LCK will not prevent the threat from cats, +SPD or +HP/DEF will not protect him from tigers, etc.

There is only one way to reduce Aran's chance to die to zero, and that is to make sure that he never gets attacked. This has a 100% success rate. Unfortunately, this means he's a finisher, or attacking at 1-2 range, and this doesn't make him very useful at all since what we actually need here is a third tank. Strictly speaking, he's better than Meg, and nobody else, in this scenario.

--== Point the Second: Levelling Aran is not free.

Not only is levelling-up prior to 1-4 not a reliable solution to Aran's problem, but it's not even guaranteed to happen in the first place. He starts a turn late and a dollar short in 1-3 on the left side -- the most dangerous and accident-prone path -- needing 100 CEXP for a level-up. He's underlevelled, which is a good, but his indirect combat is hilariously inaccurate, he doesn't hit hard, he doesn't have any special tricks like Thani, and he's not Sothe. The better part of this map is giving him ~6CEXP for a hit (assuming he hits), and 23 CEXP for a kill (when you can give him one), so we probably need a combination of hits/kills that includes at least four kills.

Well, that's kind of a problem when you're basically the worst offensive unit on the team, and can't even 2HKO a Myrmidon. Aran needs other people to weaken things so that he can leverage his amazing 3-4RKO abilities (we'll just say that Armors are out of the question since he's like 10-15RKO on them or worse). So not only does I have to take the chanciest route with him, but I have to use other units to weaken, which means blowing 2-range options for Aran's amusement, and underutilizing the only thing that Aran really has going for him on this chapter (durability), since he's not helping by eating counters for people, as I'm using him for finishing.

Aran is very likely to level-up partway through 1-4, but that means he has to take counters from laguz that can blick him before it happens, or otherwise contribute less than Eddie would.

--== Point the Third: Eddie's chance of getting screwed is miniscule, but more importantly, 100% avoidable.

Another one of your baloney arguments is to suggest that Eddie can fail to reach the required 25HP/DEF combo for surviving a 24 mt tiger in 1-4. While this is technically true, the problem is that Eddie can fail to get HP/DEF on every single level and I can still make him a tank with any C support and a Draocoshield, giving me an easy out for a RNG-screwage. A C support, by the way, is easy for any of Nolan/Leo/Micaiah/Laura, while some of them are less than desirable (Leo is the best choice naturally), again, 100% chance for Eddie to be a safe tank for 1-4.

But the fact of the matter is, this isn't likely in the first place. Contrary to your fantasies about Eddie's usefulness prior to 1-4, he has several opportunities for levelling up. In 1-P, he's almost soloing the kills on that map, since using him efficiently means having Micaiah/Leo do the uncountered weakening. In 1-1, not only is Nolan physically incapable of plugging two entry points -- something you have to do on the first effing turn -- but again, efficient offense means using Eddie to finish things off, because you don't want him getting countered ever. In 1-2, again, Nolan can only be in one place at a time and Sothe arrives late and away from everyone else. The end result is, if Eddie doesn't get to level 7 by 1-4, at least, you Did It Wrong<tm>. It is, in fact, plausible to get him higher than that.

And if Eddie gets that high, his chances to get screwed badly go down pretty low. I mean, Eddie's chance of getting zero +HP over three levels -- with his massive 85% HP growth -- is like 0.34%, which is almost twelve times less likely than Aran's chance of getting blicked by a cat at base level. Even with his 35% DEf growth, he still has a 73% chance to get at least one point prior to 1-4.

[Progenitus]

After several months, I finally decided to play again. For now I'll just make short notes.

3-1

Gattacca solos everything in the south with his manliness (although I learned the hard way that he can't take 15 attacks and still live, since the asshole doesn't dodge anything and I forgot to give him a vulnerary, so after soloing the generals and half the reinforcements he had to run away), while everyone else charges up north. Mr. I Fight For My Friends goes and ORKOs some random shit with his neck muscles, GARcher lols and ORKOs some nub with his killer bow, while everyone else gangs up on the other enemies nearby, trying to let Boyd and Mia get the kills whenever possible.

I decided to do the chapter a little differently than what I do normally, since I usually send up Mia + GARcher up the left with the thickets while everyone else (sans Gattacca of course) goes to the right and then up and around, but this time I was going to try IFFMF x Mia support, so I threw Tits McGee + GARcher up the left. I should've just pulled Shinon back because Tits solo'd np. At least when the reinforcements popped up from the starting point he went down to kill shit until Ike and co cleaned up the north and turn back around.

Meanwhile, with my three big all stars busy raping everything in their general vicinity, neck muscles was crying because IS was stupid and didn't give us wind edges, which means the sages lol'd @ his terribad res with impunity, Oscar was crying because his stats are shit and he has no supports, Mia was crying because IS was an asshole and made her best weapon at this point a steel sword, and everyone else was just crying cause they suck. Fortunately, strength in numbers, and I killed the enemies by gangbanging them.

Oh, and the RNG hates me. Everyone that leveled up in this chapter got +1 stat, and usually in something shitty like HP or skl. Except Mist who got a +5 level up. It must be the mini skirt.

I forget how many turns this chapter took me. Think around 10-11.

Supportz

neck muscles x Mia C

Boyd x Oscar meyer weiner C

Tits McGee x GARcher C

Soren x Mist (for the hell of it) C

Gattacca x Tree in a skirt SS

3-2

After the failure that was 3-1, GAAR showed up to save the day. Oh and Neph. Who I forgot was oh so kind to be level 5 and still have base spd.

Anyway, I gave boyd the speedwing, Neph an energy drop, and two forges each for Neph and Mia and a forge for Shinon, and now I had no gold.

Anyway, map starts, I send Boyd/Oscar meyer weiner/Neph/Gattacca/emo/miniskirt south, and neck muscles/Mia/Tits McGee/GARcher/White pimp east. GAAR of course flew around and did whatever the fuck he wanted to do, whenever the fuck he wanted to do. Normally I just send everyone in to rape the boss and get the map over with, but this time I actually needed the stealable items the enemies in the southeast by the boss had, so I had to lure the boss in, then surround it with GARcher/Gattacca/Tits McGee/GAAR so it couldn't move, while everyone else could move into the enemies so nubfuck Heather could steal shit without dying on me. Map took me something like 12 turns instead of the usual 7-8.

Also, the boss would always attack Gattacca instead of GARcher even though GARcher wasn't using a crossbow. Provoke is pretty awesome.

Oh, and more shitty level ups galore, although Neph finally got her first point of speed. ANd miniskirt got another +5 level up.

No new supports, other than Boyd x Oscar going to B. Couldn't get Gattacca x Neph to C, which disappointed me because they spent nearly the entire chapter buttlocked to each other.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Andrew W.K.

[Paperblade]

12 turns in 3-2 when playing for efficiency

For shame

Edited March 3, 2010 by Paperblade