How do you feel about...

[Treasure Chest]

1) Why is no one reading my follow-up comments? -frown-

2) America has a pretty different culture from Europe, where stupidity is cool, so we have to treat our 20+ year olds like the overgrown children they are. Underage drinkers are going to do it regardless of what the age limitation is. Increasing the age for people who follow the law will reduce significantly on alcohol-related stupidity, I believe.

[eclipse]

Oh come on, there's plenty more to alcohol than beer!

I like the dry bite of certain wines. I also like the delicate flavors of sake and the occasional (relatively) sweet drink (Lava Flows, Kahlua Milk, etc.) Before I developed my stupid allergy, I used to enjoy a little bit of whiskey. There's many different flavors of alcohol, and many of them do NOT taste like the old ear wax that is beer.

Unfortunately, I have very little tolerance to alcohol, so I don't go out drinking. I figured that out after I had a happy fun reaction to a slightly larger-than-normal serving of wine at home.

[Fenrir]

Let me give you a hint, you didn't fool me with your maturity XD

Is something you said in response to me on the "forget about the when was/is" topic so I assumed you were going or gone.

I agree, except that to compound on my weirdness I also hate soda because I hate carbonated drinks. Makes it easy not to drink. (I do occasionally indulge in distilled spirits though :)

i was begining to think you were completely oblivious, or just hadn't seen my other posts.

my sister is in college, and i know alot of other college kids who all love it.

lololololol i didnt catch tht one

i disliked carbination when i was little, the first carbonated drink i liked was coke. The best non-alchohalic beverage.

[Crystal Shards]

I'm talking about a couple of teenagers that don't care about the consequences, not those that are smart enough to consider contraception.

So you'd rather people who don't care about consequences and weren't smart enough to consider contraception if they didn't want to get pregnant be forced to take a pregnancy to term. You want at least nine more months of that.

Think about that and get back to me.

[Phoenix Wright]

Give me enough Pepsi, and I will be extremely ill. This means that if I drink Pepsi, I must stop after a certain point, or I will regret it. In that sense, alcohol is no different. The stop point for alcohol is probably lower than my Pepsi limit (in this case, half a can), for most people. I think it would be better if a teenager found their limit at home with someone who should be responsible enough to call for help, rather than a bunch of friends who may not want to call for help, for fear of being caught.

Too much of pretty much anything will make you ill. Does that make everything the same?

The major difference between Pepsi's and alcohol is that your reactions aren't slowed after just one drink. Caffeine and all that other disgusting crap in soda is pretty unhealthy, and with misuse can get you in a pretty bad situation (hygiene, et cetera), but having five pepsi's won't change your driving very much (unless you're sensitive to caffeine). Five beers in ten minutes will. Drastically, at that. Hell, five beers will change a lot more than just your reaction timing...

My dad was an alcoholic; grandmother was a "Pepsiholic" (kind of ironic that I'm not joking). From what my brothers and I have seen, I think we'd all very much prefer seeing our dad be like our grandmother, the "Pepsiholic," rather than an alcoholic. My dad wasn't some psycho or anything, but the anger that one shows makes you want them to change. Alcohol is not "just another beverage." Even with responsible usage, in my opinion.

Edited August 9, 2010 by MGS: Metal Gear Solid

[Esau of Isaac]

I think if you're smart enough to properly use contraceptives, you'll think about that decision long and hard.

If you don't think it will happen/don't care, that's another story.

Why would someone go into a sexual situation without thinking that their contraceptives will not fail? When you drive down to the supermarket do you assume you're going to get into a car wreck? If so, then why are you going to the supermarket?

Either way, I don't understand why abortion shouldn't be a choice for individuals that don't think for a suitably long period on the subject. Unless you're just morally chastising these people and not calling for such a thing. At which point my entire rebuttal is somewhat pointless.

2) America has a pretty different culture from Europe, where stupidity is cool,

Are you being serious right now

so we have to treat our 20+ year olds like the overgrown children they are. Underage drinkers are going to do it regardless of what the age limitation is. Increasing the age for people who follow the law will reduce significantly on alcohol-related stupidity, I believe.

I believe that's bullshit. The entire reason why there is so much shit surrounding the substance is because it's put on a pedestal and raised above everything else. If individuals were informed at a younger age that it's just another drink, with its own dangers and pitfalls, there would be a safer and more understood environment. It's absolutely moronic for a person to be old enough to buy a house, old enough to have a wife and a child, but not old enough to drink a beer.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Esau of Isaac

[volkethereaper]

I think a healthy understanding and respect for alcohol is something we americans don't really learn. I also fear that, as a general rule, the alcohol in the drinks is the reason for drinking far too often. Learn how it's made, why it tastes the way it does. Appreciate it as something other than the means to a fun night and a bad headache the next morning.

On the matter of abortion, I'd hardly call it the easy way out. Certainly some people will regret it, perhaps for the rest of their lives. Anyone who calls it the easy way out does a great disservice to many people. Now, I have moral objections to abortion, but the same goes for imposing my beliefs on others. It should be an option, one which should be thought over (as it probably is, in most cases), but an option. Oh, and of course, use as much protection as possible, in the first place.

EDIT: added "n" to learn.

Edited August 10, 2010 by volkethereaper

[eclipse]

So you'd rather people who don't care about consequences and weren't smart enough to consider contraception if they didn't want to get pregnant be forced to take a pregnancy to term. You want at least nine more months of that.

Think about that and get back to me.

That's one of the consequences for not planning ahead, and it's not the worst one possible.

While I don't pry into why people get abortions, I'm not particularly fond of them. If there were some magical way to show the absolute truth as to why someone wants an abortion, then I'd have far less issue with arbitrarily forcing women to go through a nine-month physical lesson on why contraceptives are a good idea, with the man learning the same lesson financially. However, no such method exists, so the next best thing will have to do: duct tape the people who think it's a good idea to threaten abortion doctors.

Too much of pretty much anything will make you ill. Does that make everything the same?

The major difference between Pepsi's and alcohol is that your reactions aren't slowed after just one drink. Caffeine and all that other disgusting crap in soda is pretty unhealthy, and with misuse can get you in a pretty bad situation (hygiene, et cetera), but having five pepsi's won't change your driving very much (unless you're sensitive to caffeine). Five beers in ten minutes will. Drastically, at that. Hell, five beers will change a lot more than just your reaction timing...

My dad was an alcoholic; grandmother was a "Pepsiholic" (kind of ironic that I'm not joking). From what my brothers and I have seen, I think we'd all very much prefer seeing our dad be like our grandmother, the "Pepsiholic," rather than an alcoholic. My dad wasn't some psycho or anything, but the anger that one shows makes you want them to change. Alcohol is not "just another beverage." Even with responsible usage, in my opinion.

Not everyone reacts exactly the same to everything. If that were the case, I wouldn't have to see some of the more ridiculous allergy warnings on my food (yes, a bottle of peanuts contains peanuts. What else would it contain?) For example, caffeine will put me to sleep, and two cans of Pepsi is more than enough to do it.

There's a substance that is perfectly legal that will make me fail a sobriety test, even if I only take a little. I'm not the only one with wonky food allergies, and people like me have to moderate themselves. If such a population can control what would otherwise be legal stuff, why can't the rest of the population moderate themselves around alcohol?

Why would someone go into a sexual situation without thinking that their contraceptives will not fail? When you drive down to the supermarket do you assume you're going to get into a car wreck? If so, then why are you going to the supermarket?

Either way, I don't understand why abortion shouldn't be a choice for individuals that don't think for a suitably long period on the subject. Unless you're just morally chastising these people and not calling for such a thing. At which point my entire rebuttal is somewhat pointless.

I walk to the supermarket, but I doubt that was your point. :P

I'm going more for moral chastising than anything. Ideally, if a couple who didn't bother with contraceptives wound up in that situation, the woman would have to either put the kid up for adoption or raise it, and the father would be financially tied to the woman until the child is put up for adoption, or until the child is 18, but that's never going to happen. Instead, I propose that the people who think it's okay to threaten abortion doctors be subject to lots of duct tape. Preferably on top of their head.

[Phoenix Wright]

Not everyone reacts exactly the same to everything. If that were the case, I wouldn't have to see some of the more ridiculous allergy warnings on my food (yes, a bottle of peanuts contains peanuts. What else would it contain?) For example, caffeine will put me to sleep, and two cans of Pepsi is more than enough to do it.

There's a substance that is perfectly legal that will make me fail a sobriety test, even if I only take a little. I'm not the only one with wonky food allergies, and people like me have to moderate themselves. If such a population can control what would otherwise be legal stuff, why can't the rest of the population moderate themselves around alcohol?

I'm not sure how caffeine puts you to sleep, but odd effects are irrelevant. On a health-concerned argument, caffeine is still bad and alcohol is worse.

Who said they couldn't? All I'm saying is that alcohol isn't "just some other beverage." I don't think it should be put on a pedestal, but I do think parents should treat it differently from other drinks.

When used in moderation, I don't think alcohol is all that bad. But, becoming an alcoholic is a risk, and it depends on the person how big that risk is.

[eclipse]

I'm not sure how caffeine puts you to sleep, but odd effects are irrelevant. On a health-concerned argument, caffeine is still bad and alcohol is worse.

Who said they couldn't? All I'm saying is that alcohol isn't "just some other beverage." I don't think it should be put on a pedestal, but I do think parents should treat it differently from other drinks.

When used in moderation, I don't think alcohol is all that bad. But, becoming an alcoholic is a risk, and it depends on the person how big that risk is.

Caffeine addiction is also a risk, albeit without the danger of driving into someone else's car. Imagine what would happen if America treated coffee the same way it treats beer.

I'm heavily in favor of having alcohol usage monitored by someone trustworthy. The age restriction hinders this (for example, I wasn't allowed to taste my mom's wine in a restaurant; if my kids start drinking, I'd like them to associate it with nice decor and table manners).

[Crystal Shards]

That's one of the consequences for not planning ahead, and it's not the worst one possible.

While I don't pry into why people get abortions, I'm not particularly fond of them. If there were some magical way to show the absolute truth as to why someone wants an abortion, then I'd have far less issue with arbitrarily forcing women to go through a nine-month physical lesson on why contraceptives are a good idea, with the man learning the same lesson financially. However, no such method exists, so the next best thing will have to do: duct tape the people who think it's a good idea to threaten abortion doctors.

I'm sorry, I don't think you understood how stupid that line of thinking is. You want people who are responsible to not go through pregnancy and those who are not to go through with it. You want what I'm going to assume you think are dumb people who don't think of consequences (or haven't had the education to know better) to have kids and either give them up or raise them.

HELLO. DUMB.

An abortion is an abortion. Who gives a flying fuck why they happen? They do. I'd rather everyone have equal access to safe procedures than trying stupider ways of inducing abortions at home. It's ignorant to think some people are "more deserving" of that just because of their IQ or common sense abilities.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Crystal Shards

[eclipse]

I'm sorry, I don't think you understood how stupid that line of thinking is. You want people who are responsible to not go through pregnancy and those who are not to go through with it. You want what I'm going to assume you think are dumb people who don't think of consequences (or haven't had the education to know better) to have kids and either give them up or raise them.

HELLO. DUMB.

An abortion is an abortion. Who gives a flying fuck why they happen? They do. I'd rather everyone have equal access to safe procedures than trying stupider ways of inducing abortions at home. It's ignorant to think some people are "more deserving" of that just because of their IQ or common sense abilities.

Think of it as a very painful life lesson. Kind of like the one that says jumping off of extremely high places is a bad idea, but not so permanent.

What I said was an ideal, not what I think will happen. Unless you forgot to read the last sentence of my previous post.

[Esau of Isaac]

Think of it as a very painful life lesson. Kind of like the one that says jumping off of extremely high places is a bad idea, but not so permanent.

What I said was an ideal, not what I think will happen. Unless you forgot to read the last sentence of my previous post.

And that ideal is retarded. Who punishes someone by making them carry a pregnancy to term?

Like, seriously, who? How would that not be by its nature cruel and unusual punishment?

[eclipse]

And that ideal is retarded. Who punishes someone by making them carry a pregnancy to term?

Like, seriously, who? How would that not be by its nature cruel and unusual punishment?

It's a natural consequence, just as skydiving without a parachute will result in a very messy splatter across the land.

Pregnancy is not the worst possible outcome of unprotected sex, either.

[Esau of Isaac]

It's a natural consequence, just as skydiving without a parachute will result in a very messy splatter across the land.

No, there's a big goddamn difference here, and that's that there is something that could stop that unwanted even from occurring. To bring your analogy more properly home, this would be akin to a person jumping out of a plane without a parachute. Sure, they're a fucking idiot in this case, but it just so happens that you have this incredibly awesome super power to make people slow down and land from any height as though they have fallen backwards onto a fluffy pillow. But because they were stupid, you in all your untamed intellectual might found it appropriate to let them die.

Real logical conclusion, brah.

Pregnancy is not the worst possible outcome of unprotected sex, either.

And lacerations aren't the worst possible outcome of being stabbed. Doesn't change that I really, really don't feel like being stabbed in the goddamn leg.

This is forgetting that for some people, it is the worst case. I'm sure you're well acquainted with the fears of all six billion people on the planet, though.

[eclipse]

No, there's a big goddamn difference here, and that's that there is something that could stop that unwanted even from occurring. To bring your analogy more properly home, this would be akin to a person jumping out of a plane without a parachute. Sure, they're a fucking idiot in this case, but it just so happens that you have this incredibly awesome super power to make people slow down and land from any height as though they have fallen backwards onto a fluffy pillow. But because they were stupid, you in all your untamed intellectual might found it appropriate to let them die.

Real logical conclusion, brah.

Yes I do. I'm not the type that feels the need to protect people from themselves. People have free will. They should be free to exercise it, and they should be willing to accept the consequences of exercising that free will.

Skydiving is a hell of an experience, with proper preparation, but the consequences really suck if something goes horribly wrong. Yet I don't see this kind of reaction every time a skydiving accident occurs. Sure, it sucks to be a red smear on the ground (or worse). However, if death by malfunctioning parachute is not something you want, don't go skydiving. Can't see why sex is any different.

And lacerations aren't the worst possible outcome of being stabbed. Doesn't change that I really, really don't feel like being stabbed in the goddamn leg.

This is forgetting that for some people, it is the worst case. I'm sure you're well acquainted with the fears of all six billion people on the planet, though.

The difference is if you've got access to an abortion clinic, you probably have the option of adoption. Some things besides pregnancy stick around for a person's entire life, can shorten said person's life, can't be cured, and GASP, affect both sexes. Can't see too many situations where being sick for the rest of your life is worse than a child.

[Crystal Shards]

Yes I do. I'm not the type that feels the need to protect people from themselves. People have free will. They should be free to exercise it, and they should be willing to accept the consequences of exercising that free will.

And people have the right to free will. This includes the right to an abortion.

The difference is if you've got access to an abortion clinic, you probably have the option of adoption. Some things besides pregnancy stick around for a person's entire life, can shorten said person's life, can't be cured, and GASP, affect both sexes. Can't see too many situations where being sick for the rest of your life is worse than a child.

Okay, let's just run with your dumbass idea for just one second. We force people to take abortion out of the equation. That's one million plus kids a year. Assuming all these kids are given up for adoption, that's one million plus kids A YEAR added to a system that's already near broken. GOOD FUCKING JOB. Now you've fucked over MORE lives.

Face it: your idea blows.

[Esau of Isaac]

Yes I do. I'm not the type that feels the need to protect people from themselves. People have free will. They should be free to exercise it, and they should be willing to accept the consequences of exercising that free will.

By having their free will abridged?

Skydiving is a hell of an experience, with proper preparation, but the consequences really suck if something goes horribly wrong. Yet I don't see this kind of reaction every time a skydiving accident occurs. Sure, it sucks to be a red smear on the ground (or worse). However, if death by malfunctioning parachute is not something you want, don't go skydiving. Can't see why sex is any different.

BECAUSE THERE IS A METHOD TO STOP THE EVENT FROM HAPPENING AND YOU ARE REFUSING TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT AS A FAIR OPTION.

It's like you're saying no one should be allowed to seek medical attention if they get in a car crash because they knew the risks. It's pants-on-head retarded.

The difference is if you've got access to an abortion clinic, you probably have the option of adoption.

Utterly irrelevant.

Some things besides pregnancy stick around for a person's entire life, can shorten said person's life, can't be cured, and GASP, affect both sexes. Can't see too many situations where being sick for the rest of your life is worse than a child.

That's because you are you, and not every single other person on the planet.

[eclipse]

By having their free will abridged?

As much as this is gonna shock you, every society abridges free will (otherwise, I'd be free to burn down your house without repercussion. Maybe I'll take your peanut butter, too).

I don't believe in outlawing abortion outright, but I do believe that it shouldn't be there as a safety net for people who don't want to acknowledge the consequences of their actions.

BECAUSE THERE IS A METHOD TO STOP THE EVENT FROM HAPPENING AND YOU ARE REFUSING TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT AS A FAIR OPTION.

It's like you're saying no one should be allowed to seek medical attention if they get in a car crash because they knew the risks. It's pants-on-head retarded.

What's so bad about being pregnant?

Utterly irrelevant.

Ponder this for a while, and you'll see the relevance.

That's because you are you, and not every single other person on the planet.

Is death or a lifetime of disease that much better than an unwanted pregnancy? I can't think of anyone who'd answer yes to that. Maybe that's true in your neck of the woods?

[volkethereaper]

What's so bad about being pregnant?

I dunno, maybe the weight gain, cravings, pain of childbirth, morning sickness, stigma associated with it, and a plethora of other things. Not your strongest arguement.

[eclipse]

I dunno, maybe the weight gain, cravings, pain of childbirth, morning sickness, stigma associated with it, and a plethora of other things. Not your strongest arguement.

Weight gain can be permanent (depends on how you care for yourself afterwards - I've seen skinny moms, fat moms, and everywhere in between). The stigma REALLY depends on your surroundings (but if you're in a place where such a stigma is strong, then why are you doing it in the first place?)

The rest is temporary, and if I could trade what I deal with on a daily basis for that, I'd do so in an instant.

[Esau of Isaac]

As much as this is gonna shock you, every society abridges free will (otherwise, I'd be free to burn down your house without repercussion. Maybe I'll take your peanut butter, too).

The difference is that the primary means by which society is barred from doing whatever they want most importantly involve cases wherein their actions would abridge the rights of another.

Good to see you not even attempt to defend the fact that it's an abridgment of free will, though.

I don't believe in outlawing abortion outright, but I do believe that it shouldn't be there as a safety net for people who don't want to acknowledge the consequences of their actions.

Too fucking bad. Either everyone gets it or no one does. You can't make a silly and childish differentiation based on pointless moral silliness.

What's so bad about being pregnant?

The fact that there's an organism growing inside their belly and feeding off them when they don't want it?

Seriously? How can you have a hard time understanding this?

Ponder this for a while, and you'll see the relevance.

There is no relevance. The fact that some women can offer up a child for adoption doesn't solve the problem of them not wanting to have to carry the child to term.

Is death or a lifetime of disease that much better than an unwanted pregnancy? I can't think of anyone who'd answer yes to that. Maybe that's true in your neck of the woods?

For some people, having a pregnancy is traumatizing enough to lead them to commit suicide. So yes, sometimes it is just as bad as death.

So yeah, in my "neck of the woods" (the planet Earth) some people have that mentality. Which you're cool with, because they don't have the same values as you.

[Crystal Shards]

I just want to add that forcing someone to carry a fetus to term can be just as traumatizing as forcing someone to have an abortion when they want to keep it and it causes no harm to carry the fetus to term. The point is someone should have a choice over what happens to his or her body. And disallowing abortion, whether it's across the board or arbitrarily to certain groups, only leads to more reckless ways of dealing with the problem (yes, I said the problem, because if it wasn't the problem the woman wouldn't be looking for a way out). Better anyone who wants an abortion have equal access to education and medical procedures done by licensed professionals than some back alley quack or... well I'm sure you have heard the stories.

By the way, you still never mentioned a plan of action for those one million plus kids per year you've just put into adoption agencies and foster care.

[eclipse]

The difference is that the primary means by which society is barred from doing whatever they want most importantly involve cases wherein their actions would abridge the rights of another.

Good to see you not even attempt to defend the fact that it's an abridgment of free will, though.

Why should I? Besides, I want your peanut butter. Now.

Too fucking bad. Either everyone gets it or no one does. You can't make a silly and childish differentiation based on pointless moral silliness.

I think it is neither silly nor childish. The desire to get out of a natural consequence seems sillier to me.

However, we humans suck at judging things in general, so that's why I'd rather see it available to everyone.

The fact that there's an organism growing inside their belly and feeding off them when they don't want it?

Seriously? How can you have a hard time understanding this?

The bolded part is what I don't care for. If it's that inconvenient, don't get yourself into that situation in the first place!

There is no relevance. The fact that some women can offer up a child for adoption doesn't solve the problem of them not wanting to have to carry the child to term.

I was talking about skydiving. Seems things got a little mixed up. My apologies.

For some people, having a pregnancy is traumatizing enough to lead them to commit suicide. So yes, sometimes it is just as bad as death.

So yeah, in my "neck of the woods" (the planet Earth) some people have that mentality. Which you're cool with, because they don't have the same values as you.

Given the choice between a traumatizing pregnancy or the equally traumatizing permanent disease which may lead to premature death (and will still require a ton of explanation), which do you think those women would choose?

If someone wants to end their life, I don't see why I should stop them. My only request is that it be done in such a manner that it won't disrupt the general flow of life and/or cause others to go insane (especially train operators).

[Esau of Isaac]

Why should I? Besides, I want your peanut butter. Now.

Let's try and dumb this discussion down (even further). Why is it that our freedom to kill each other are abridged, but our freedom to live is not (generally)?

Extra points if you can realize why restriction of freedom of murdering each other has nothing to do with abortion.

I think it is neither silly nor childish.

Yeah, that's why you're silly and childish. Come on, man.

The desire to get out of a natural consequence seems sillier to me.

A natural consequence of being shot is exsanguination, that doesn't mean if you get hit by a stray bullet you can't call the fucking ambulance.

The bolded part is what I don't care for. If it's that inconvenient, don't get yourself into that situation in the first place!

"If you don't want to die, then don't go outside! It's not my fault if you get hit by a car, and I certainly don't support you going to the hospital if you do!"

Given the choice between a traumatizing pregnancy or the equally traumatizing permanent disease which may lead to premature death (and will still require a ton of explanation), which do you think those women would choose?

Which women? All women? Most women? Some women?

I mean, let's apply your logic here; even if we believe you totally at your word, that all women believe carrying a pregnancy is nowhere near as bad as the threat of death. I expect that in such a case, you would probably agree that most women believe they'd rather be a slave than dead. Is it cool, then, for women to lose their rights?

Like, where is your argument even coming from?

If someone wants to end their life, I don't see why I should stop them. My only request is that it be done in such a manner that it won't disrupt the general flow of life and/or cause others to go insane (especially train operators).

You support a woman killing her goddamn self over being forced to carry a pregnancy to term but you won't even support a teenager's unwanted pregnancy being aborted?

What the fuck is wrong with you?

Edited August 16, 2010 by Esau of Isaac