The Black Knight vs. Weapons

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

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[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Coming out of Lyn Mode, Sain is easily level 8 at the start of Chapter 16 and has got a quick C Kent.

He comes in as an immediate contribution to your team and is one of your best units. 2 chapters later, he's easily obtained 2 levels in time for Raven's join.

Now, Level 10 Sain C Kent vs base Raven:

26 hp, 13 str (+1), 7 skl, 10 spd, 7 lck, 8 def, 2 res, 9 con

29 hp, 10 str, 13 skl, 15 spd, 2 lck, 6 def, 2 res, 8 con

Immediately, we see a win in favor of Sain with +4 str and +2 def and +5 lck vs -4 hp.

You may be saying, "+5 spd," but this doesn't matter as Sain is doubling everything anything anyway if he goes iron lance/sword and therefore one rounding. You may also be saying, "myrmidons and mercenaries," but Raven can't double them either (12-14 AS in Chapter 17).

Sain's class win also gives him a major advantage. Swords + Lances > Swords in a lancefest. Sain's offensive and defensive leads are thus extended by 1 att and 15 hit/avo.

Pony > no pony. It's 7 mov vs 5 mov, and after just 3 turns, Sain could rest and Raven still wouldn't catch up to him. This mov lead is essentially for an efficient completion of the game and is a killer advantage.

1-2 range > 1-range. Pretty obvious what this can do. This gives Sain massive win over mages, archers, and the truckload of javelin spammers while Raven slows you down by not being able to counter.

Also, Raven's got a crap base luck of 2. Most units will have a displayed 1-3 against him and while that doesn't seem like much, in just 5 attacks with 2 displayed, you're looking at 1- (.97)^5=~14% chance to get critted. Unreliable is unreliable.

So growths.

Sain: 80% hp, 60% str, 35% skl, 40% spd, 35% lck, 20% def, 20% res

Raven: 85% hp, 55%, 40% skl, 45% spd, 35% lck, 25% def, 15% res

Quite close really. Raven can't pull any serious wins with only 5% leads, which would amount to just 1 point over 20 levels. Sain's Kent support easily eclipses this. Sain's str lead is always going to be there and his spd grows faster than the enemies', which is all that really matters for that stat. Def/hp is always going to be fine for both units.

So down the line,

Level 20 Sain B Kent: 34 hp, 19 str (+2), 11 skl, 14 spd, 11 lck, 10 def (+1), 4 (+1) res

Level 15 Raven C Priscilla C Lucius: 37-38 hp, 15-16 str, 17 skl, 19-20 spd, 5-6 lck, 8-9 def (+1), 3-4 res (+1)

You may be wondering why Raven is still 5 levels below Sain. If so, I'm wondering where exactly Raven's making up this level lead.

21 att before a weapon is monstrous; it gives Sain the right to crush any enemy who gets in the way of AS, thus negating Raven's spd lead.

Raven's made up def a little, but now they are practically equal. Well, except for Sain's WTA control.

Sain's class advantages remain heavily in his favor. Mono-swords/no 2-range/2 less mov works severely against Raven.

Sain's easily ORKOing the tougher enemies Raven can't, like knights, the 2-range enemies, and isn't giving up much of anything.

Now, promotion and a bit after,

Level 7 Sain A Kent C Priscilla: 41 hp, 24 str (+4), 14 skl, 17 spd, 13 lck, 14 def (+1), 6 res (+1)

Level 4 Raven B Priscilla B Lucius: 48 hp, 20 str (+2), 22 skl, 25 spd, 8 lck, 12-13 def (+3), 6 res (+3)

Raven and Sain both get axes. This may appear to fix Raven's lack of 2-range, but the hand axe fails against the new spear options Sain has. Consider that Raven with a hand axe has 29 att while Sain with a spear has 40 att. An enemy unit only needs to have 31 hp and 14 def to survive Raven while a unit needs 41 hp and 20 def to survive Sain. Clearly, Sain is still dominating 2-range.

The mov lead still exists and is increased in the bigger maps in late game. If needed, Sain can help rescue those low mov units to keep them moving forward at a respectable pace.

Durability has slightly shifted in Raven's favor, but Sain is no glass cannon; death isn't a real concern for either of them.

Sain's continuing to ORKO tougher enemies like Wyvern Lords, Generals, and Warriors that Raven can't due to needing to compensate for 2-range and faster enemies don't work all that much in Raven's favor since Sain can go and one-shot those weaker enemies. What Raven wins is much less than what Sain wins, since faster units are heavily outnumbered by durable/2-range enemies.

Overall, Sain's early game win, superior class and mov win, WT control win, 2-range win, and continued post promotion win give him the clear win.

[TinySteps]

Ok.. I am probably going to give a very weak argument but here goes.

Pony > no pony. It's 7 mov vs 5 mov, and after just 3 turns, Sain could rest and Raven still wouldn't catch up to him. This mov lead is essentially for an efficient completion of the game and is a killer advantage.

Ok Sain has more movment than Raven does but Sain is affected more by terrain. In sand Sain can only move 2 or 3 squares. Raven is affected less by the sand movement deduction cost so he can move more quickly in the sand. Sain cannot move on hills which provide a decent defense and avoid bonus.

Also, Raven's got a crap base luck of 2. Most units will have a displayed 1-3 against him and while that doesn't seem like much, in just 5 attacks with 2 displayed, you're looking at 1- (.97)^5=~14% chance to get critted.

True Raven has only 2 luk but as you said most enimies only have a 1-3 crit. Now you said that with 5 attacks there is a 14%chance of a crit. Chances are Raven wouldn't be swarmed by 5 units. Also Raven has a good amount of SPD. In order to crit you need to hit.

Raven can't pull any serious wins with only 5% leads, which would amount to just 1 point over 20 levels. Sain's Kent support easily eclipses this.

Raven overall has better growths than Sain does. Kent is a decent unit but he there is a sizable chance that he will die. Kent fought against two soldiers. If there had been another soldeir he well would have died. Sain is a better unit than Kent is. You only need one paladin so you would probably use Sain. As for Ravens growths he wins by 5% for most stas. For the stats that Sain wins in it is only by 5% as well, so like I said earilier Raven has better growths overall.

Level 20 Sain B Kent: 34 hp, 19 str (+2), 11 skl, 14 spd, 11 lck, 10 def (+1), 4 (+1) res

Level 15 Raven C Priscilla C Lucius: 37-38 hp, 15-16 str, 17 skl, 19-20 spd, 5-6 lck, 8-9 def (+1), 3-4 res (+1)

You said that Sain and Kent with a B support is better than Raven with a C support with Priscilla and Lucius. If you gave Raven a B support with Lucius then he would have better bonuses. We can both agree that they take an equal amount of time to be able to support with each other. Lucius is a good unit. If you bring him into the final chapter he could be very useful in the fight against Nergal. Is you S Lucius's light magic he can use Aurola and Luce but if you S Kent's lance or sword he can use the Regal BLade or Rex Hasta. The Regal Blade and Rex Hasta isn't effective against Nergal or the Fire Dragon.

Sain's continuing to ORKO tougher enemies like Wyvern Lords, Generals, and Warriors that Raven can't due to needing to compensate for 2-range and faster enemies don't work all that much in Raven's favor since Sain can go and one-shot those weaker enemies.

Once you promote Raven he can use axes clearing the range problem.

The mov lead still exists and is increased in the bigger maps in late game. If needed, Sain can help rescue those low mov units to keep them moving forward at a respectable pace.

Rescuing units decrease skill and spd. If Sain were to be attack while he is rescuing slower units he would lose a lot of health but not lowering the enimies health.

Sain's class win also gives him a major advantage. Swords + Lances

Against Eagler Sain cannot gain a weapon advantage. In this pic. Sain is using a heavy spear against Lundgren. The heavy spear is effective against armor units. This should give Sain a major advantage but Lundgren not only does more damage but has a higher chance of hitting.

Raven and Sain both get axes. This may appear to fix Raven's lack of 2-range, but the hand axe fails against the new spear options Sain has. Consider that Raven with a hand axe has 29 att while Sain with a spear has 40 att. An enemy unit only needs to have 31 hp and 14 def to survive Raven while a unit needs 41 hp and 20 def to survive Sain. Clearly, Sain is still dominating 2-range.

Here you used an example of Raven using a hand axe and Sain using a spear. If Raven were to use a Tomahawk the results would be differrnt. A Tomahawk has 6 more MT than a hand axe does. So an enemy would need 38 hp and 14 def to survive. In the level you recruit Raven in my Sain was attacked by 3 archers.

Sain's class comes with disadvantages. Unlike Raven, Sain has to look out for a weapon. Horseslayers will easily lower Sain's health. Raven doesn't need to be afraid of Horseslayers.

Now, promotion and a bit after,

Level 7 Sain A Kent C Priscilla: 41 hp, 24 str (+4), 14 skl, 17 spd, 13 lck, 14 def (+1), 6 res (+1)

Level 4 Raven B Priscilla B Lucius: 48 hp, 20 str (+2), 22 skl, 25 spd, 8 lck, 12-13 def (+3), 6 res (+3)

Like I said earlier these are not the same level of support. GIve his support with Lucius an A and with Priscilla a C. So Raven would get 3Mt and def 7.5 hit and avoid as well as 7 crit and crit avo from Lucius's bonus. The crit avod that come with the Lucius support also makes up for his luck. Edited November 14, 2009 by The Black Knight

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Pony > no pony. It's 7 mov vs 5 mov, and after just 3 turns, Sain could rest and Raven still wouldn't catch up to him. This mov lead is essentially for an efficient completion of the game and is a killer advantage.

Ok Sain has more movment than Raven does but Sain is affected more by terrain. In sand Sain can only move 2 or 3 squares. Raven is affected less by the sand movement deduction cost so he can move more quickly in the sand. Sain cannot move on hills which provide a decent defense and avoid bonus.

According to this site, everybody has a movement cost of one on sand, so Sain's mov lead remains there. When he promotes, Sain can move onto mountains, but most of the time they are out of the way and can be easily traveled around. Forests are more common and give just -10 avo from a mountain, so the terrain bonus from a mountain is minimal.

Also, Raven's got a crap base luck of 2. Most units will have a displayed 1-3 against him and while that doesn't seem like much, in just 5 attacks with 2 displayed, you're looking at 1- (.97)^5=~14% chance to get critted.

True Raven has only 2 luk but as you said most enimies only have a 1-3 crit. Now you said that with 5 attacks there is a 14%chance of a crit. Chances are Raven wouldn't be swarmed by 5 units. Also Raven has a good amount of SPD. In order to crit you need to hit.

Raven doesn't need to be swarmed by 5 units to be attacked 5 times; they can happen on different turns across the map. Enemy hit rates early are quite good, especially with WTA against swords, so hit before crit isn't much of an issue. There is also the fact that Raven's not usually entering combat only 5 times a map. The more he is attacked, the higher chance there is for crit and death.

Raven can't pull any serious wins with only 5% leads, which would amount to just 1 point over 20 levels. Sain's Kent support easily eclipses this.

Raven overall has better growths than Sain does. Kent is a decent unit but he there is a sizable chance that he will die. Kent fought against two soldiers. If there had been another soldeir he well would have died. Sain is a better unit than Kent is. You only need one paladin so you would probably use Sain. As for Ravens growths he wins by 5% for most stas. For the stats that Sain wins in it is only by 5% as well, so like I said earilier Raven has better growths overall.

Kent is a plenty good unit. He has more durability than Raven (at Level 10 28 hp/7 def vs 29 hp/6 def and his offense is good enough and can be helped by supports. If Raven had been in that situation, he'd probably do worse what with lower def and WTD. At the least he's better than glass cannon Lucius.

Level 20 Sain B Kent: 34 hp, 19 str (+2), 11 skl, 14 spd, 11 lck, 10 def (+1), 4 (+1) res

Level 15 Raven C Priscilla C Lucius: 37-38 hp, 15-16 str, 17 skl, 19-20 spd, 5-6 lck, 8-9 def (+1), 3-4 res (+1)

You said that Sain and Kent with a B support is better than Raven with a C support with Priscilla and Lucius. If you gave Raven a B support with Lucius then he would have better bonuses. We can both agree that they take an equal amount of time to be able to support with each other. Lucius is a good unit. If you bring him into the final chapter he could be very useful in the fight against Nergal. Is you S Lucius's light magic he can use Aurola and Luce but if you S Kent's lance or sword he can use the Regal BLade or Rex Hasta. The Regal Blade and Rex Hasta isn't effective against Nergal or the Fire Dragon.

Sain and Kent get a B support quicker since they just have a lot more time to build it up. Everything but the prologue in Lyn mode and 1 1/2 chapters lead on Raven causes this support gap. Lucius is a good unit, but his durability is pretty bad. 18 hp/1 def at base and 55%/10% growths respectively means he's getting consistently two shotted.

Sain's continuing to ORKO tougher enemies like Wyvern Lords, Generals, and Warriors that Raven can't due to needing to compensate for 2-range and faster enemies don't work all that much in Raven's favor since Sain can go and one-shot those weaker enemies.

Once you promote Raven he can use axes clearing the range problem.

True, but it still remains inferior.

The mov lead still exists and is increased in the bigger maps in late game. If needed, Sain can help rescue those low mov units to keep them moving forward at a respectable pace.

Rescuing units decrease skill and spd. If Sain were to be attack while he is rescuing slower units he would lose a lot of health but not lowering the enimies health.

Thus rescuing is a small advantage, but an advantage nonetheless. It's something Sain can do that Raven can't and it helps when there is open space to cross, like moving a thief to get all the treasures or grabbing whoever was dealing with reinforcements to put them back in the fighting quicker.

Sain's class win also gives him a major advantage. Swords + Lances

Against Eagler Sain cannot gain a weapon advantage. In this pic. Sain is using a heavy spear against Lundgren. The heavy spear is effective against armor units. This should give Sain a major advantage but Lundgren not only does more damage but has a higher chance of hitting.

Raven wouldn't be doing any better.

Raven and Sain both get axes. This may appear to fix Raven's lack of 2-range, but the hand axe fails against the new spear options Sain has. Consider that Raven with a hand axe has 29 att while Sain with a spear has 40 att. An enemy unit only needs to have 31 hp and 14 def to survive Raven while a unit needs 41 hp and 20 def to survive Sain. Clearly, Sain is still dominating 2-range.

Here you used an example of Raven using a hand axe and Sain using a spear. If Raven were to use a Tomahawk the results would be differrnt. A Tomahawk has 6 more MT than a hand axe does. So an enemy would need 38 hp and 14 def to survive.

Raven starts with only E Axes upon promotion. The tomahawk needs an A rank. Getting 180 WEXP is unreasonable in the time of the comparison, and Raven's not likely getting to A Axes at all in this game. Thus he's stuck with a hand axe.

In the level you recruit Raven in my Sain was attacked by 3 archers.

Again, Raven isn't doing better. Sain's got 26 hp/8 def vs Raven's 29 hp, 6 def.

Sain's class comes with disadvantages. Unlike Raven, Sain has to look out for a weapon. Horseslayers will easily lower Sain's health. Raven doesn't need to be afraid of Horseslayers.

1. Horseslayers are rare and even then only does 7 more damage to him

2. Raven has to watch out for swordreavers/slayers. These give him serious trouble with WTD.

Now, promotion and a bit after,

Level 7 Sain A Kent C Priscilla: 41 hp, 24 str (+4), 14 skl, 17 spd, 13 lck, 14 def (+1), 6 res (+1)

Level 4 Raven B Priscilla B Lucius: 48 hp, 20 str (+2), 22 skl, 25 spd, 8 lck, 12-13 def (+3), 6 res (+3)

Like I said earlier these are not the same level of support. GIve his support with Lucius an A and with Priscilla a C. So Raven would get 3Mt and def 7.5 hit and avoid as well as 7 crit and crit avo from Lucius's bonus. The crit avod that come with the Lucius support also makes up for his luck.

Again, Kent/Sain support comes much faster due to more time to build up. Also, building a support and supporting a backliner is difficult since Lucius's durability is low. Either Lucius is staying back and not doing his job in fighting, or he's near the front lines where his durability will represent the team's since he'll be the most likely to be attacked with death in 2 hits.

Edited November 15, 2009 by WeaponsofMassConstruction