Alfredo's tier list

[Zkirsche]

1-1, 1-2, and 1-3 disagree with you. If nothing else, Nolan's 1-1 alone outranks giving some exp to some unit in 1-3.

True enougth. Still, with Int's logic, Aran would be stupidly high.

So no, that would not be a correct application of Interceptor's logic. Don't go smash on us.

I read it as: "Aran doesn't give us a performance that can't be replaced by anyone else, thus his best use is giving exp to other units." Please correct me if i was wrong.

[Narga_Rocks]

1-1, 1-2, and 1-3 disagree with you. If nothing else, Nolan's 1-1 alone outranks giving some exp to some unit in 1-3.

True enougth. Still, with Int's logic, Aran would be stupidly high.

So no, that would not be a correct application of Interceptor's logic. Don't go smash on us.

I read it as: "Aran doesn't give us a performance that can't be replaced by anyone else, thus his best use is giving exp to other units." Please correct me if i was wrong.

I just meant with Nolan in particular. Smash "extends" Interceptor's logic to places it truly doesn't go no matter how a reasonable person looks at it.

I suppose you could compare Aran to various GM units that are very replaceable and maybe Interceptor's argument causes Aran > Ranulf (though maybe he is anyway) or Aran > Ulki (which is obviously untrue) or something. Those would not be smash-esque extensions.

But I think that his argument is more that Aran needs training to match units that need less training or will have received their training by the time he shows up. Thus Aran does more by giving exp. I'm thinking he's acting a little tongue-in-cheek or something, but if I'm wrong I'd have to suggest that Aran > Ulki and Aran > Ranulf (at least) would not automatically result from his argument. Maybe some of the others, since Jill needs training (though in 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 she is irreplaceable for certain tasks). I'm not sure how many units would drop below Aran under my interpretation. There are not enough units that can approach Mia/Titania/Gatrie if you set them up with Ike/wing/crown to prevent them from being better than Aran even under Interceptor's argument. Certainly not much will match Naesala/Tibarn. Nothing comes close to Volug in part 1. Neph has 2-1, if nothing else. Oscar starts with 21 AS so at least in 3-P and 3-1 there are plenty of units he beats, and you are likely using all combat units to clear those things quickly. Really I'm not sure Aran actually jumps up the list based on that Aran needs training to match units that need less training or will have received their training by the time he shows up.

[Interceptor]

My post was definitely tongue-in-cheek, although the point made was actually a real one. I think you blew it a little bit out of proportion, kirsche, since where I was going with that is that Aran is pretty underwhelming, not that a mere 1/5 of a level somehow propels him up the tier list on rocket shoes.

[Ardan]

I guess the intention of the TC was to place Aran in God tier but then realised he was an atheist and that would be pretty arkward, so decided to leave aran out as god does not exist according to his beliefs.

Aran is pretty underwhelming, not that a mere 1/5 of a level somehow propels him up the tier list on rocket shoes.

at least he can visit houses

[_____]

Aran is pretty underwhelming

I wouldn't say that. I mean, he's pretty awesome from 1-5 to 4-1/2/3, and he can always BEXP to stop enemies from doubling him in Part 4. He's not Ike, but he's not Bastian, either.

[Interceptor]

at least he can visit houses

Could, but won't, since no houses exist any time that he's around.

I wouldn't say that. I mean, he's pretty awesome from 1-5 to 4-1/2/3, and he can always BEXP to stop enemies from doubling him in Part 4. He's not Ike, but he's not Bastian, either.

I don't see how he's awesome in Part 1, when the prepromos are making him look like a noob. He's alright in Part 3 assuming that you can get his DEF high enough, and depending on the mode, but once he hits Part 4 all of a sudden he's in the "what the shit I can't ORKO without a mastery activation" club.

[_____]

I don't see how he's awesome in Part 1, when the prepromos are making him look like a noob.

I don't think that's a particularly fair way to judge him, but I seem to be the only one to think that.

He's alright in Part 3 assuming that you can get his DEF high enough, and depending on the mode, but once he hits Part 4 all of a sudden he's in the "what the shit I can't ORKO without a mastery activation" club.

2RKOing isn't that bad...

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't see how he's awesome in Part 1, when the prepromos are making him look like a noob.

I don't think that's a particularly fair way to judge him, but I seem to be the only one to think that.

Well, a fair number of not-smash people probably agree with you, actually. And Smash thinks he's awesome, so Smash probably thinks of Aran's part 1 more highly than you do, actually.

He's alright in Part 3 assuming that you can get his DEF high enough, and depending on the mode, but once he hits Part 4 all of a sudden he's in the "what the shit I can't ORKO without a mastery activation" club.

2RKOing isn't that bad...

Well, before part 4 2RKOing is fine. In part 4, if you aren't ORKOing you better at least double so that you have two shots at your mastery or crits. Aran, doesn't. I don't think he even doubles sages. People should at least ORKO sages.

I don't remember hp/def values of paladins and his str, and don't feel like checking, but I wonder if he can OHKO with horseslayer. Of course, it locks him to 4-3, but oh well, I say. There are a small number of paladins in 4-2, but not many, so for blicking he needs 4-P.

[_____]

Well, a fair number of not-smash people probably agree with you, actually. And Smash thinks he's awesome, so Smash probably thinks of Aran's part 1 more highly than you do, actually.

But he's Smash.

I've read up, I know.

Well, before part 4 2RKOing is fine. In part 4, if you aren't ORKOing you better at least double so that you have two shots at your mastery or crits. Aran, doesn't. I don't think he even doubles sages. People should at least ORKO sages.

I suppose he's damn lucky that he's got an overkill skill growth and Impale is 4x damage and Skill%, then.

I don't remember hp/def values of paladins and his str, and don't feel like checking, but I wonder if he can OHKO with horseslayer. Of course, it locks him to 4-3, but oh well, I say. There are a small number of paladins in 4-2, but not many, so for blicking he needs 4-P.

It's a possibility, but I wonder if it's still intact by this point.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, a fair number of not-smash people probably agree with you, actually. And Smash thinks he's awesome, so Smash probably thinks of Aran's part 1 more highly than you do, actually.

But he's Smash.

I've read up, I know.

Smash makes valid points sometimes. I'm sure he does. It's like Bigfoot. You know he has to exist, but nobody can prove it. (That was low. Bad Narga)

Well, before part 4 2RKOing is fine. In part 4, if you aren't ORKOing you better at least double so that you have two shots at your mastery or crits. Aran, doesn't. I don't think he even doubles sages. People should at least ORKO sages.

I suppose he's damn lucky that he's got an overkill skill growth and Impale is 4x damage and Skill%, then.

It helps. Others can get past 30% through doubling, though. 18/10/1 only has 28%, even with his killer skill. He has 24 crit, so that helps. Forges that don't go beyond steel until 4-2 doesn't help him get a useful critforge, though. Well, I suppose he'll 3HKO with a steel forge (for crits to KO), and silver greatlance isn't exactly accurate even if it does bring him to 2HKO for things a steel forge doesn't. Also that is just a 2 mt difference.

I don't remember hp/def values of paladins and his str, and don't feel like checking, but I wonder if he can OHKO with horseslayer. Of course, it locks him to 4-3, but oh well, I say. There are a small number of paladins in 4-2, but not many, so for blicking he needs 4-P.

It's a possibility, but I wonder if it's still intact by this point.

You get a new one in 3-11. The paladins in that chapter are probably almost all dead by then, so it is just the ones in 3-E that could eat uses. I think he could use it in 4-P. It's not 100% accurate or anywhere near that, but oh well. It's something better than his impale chance.

[grandjackal]

*sees Pelleas in mid*

BAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!

[Allan's Aokage]

You know, going only on 4-E (and hence, average stats) makes Pelleas look pretty cool. He hits pretty much all of his (poor) Archsage caps. And he's shoehorned into Tibarn's group, which is probably the best group to level up any second tier stragglers (ohai dawn brigade) left after Part 3.

...'course, it's not like it makes him any better. He's still pretty dire.

[Rewjeo]

Why would you promote Aran at 18/10/1? That's when STR, SKL, and DEF cap, and since you could have a crap-ton of BEXP in Part 4 (I know I always do). If you gave him 5 levels of BEXP (18/15/1) then he'd get an extra 4-5 HP, 3-4 SPD, 3-4 LUK, and 1-3 RES.

HP: 40->44-45

STR: 28->28

SKL: 28->28

SPD: 20->23-24

LUK: 13->16-17

DEF: 27->27

RES: 13->14-17

How much does this do for him? Well, he's no longer doubled by 4-1 Halbs, Warriors, 1 of the Snipers, and maybe the Falcos. He doubles the Bishops and with some luck he could double some of the Sages. And of course, the extra HP/LUK/RES won't hurt him.

[Narga_Rocks]

Why would you promote Aran at 18/10/1? That's when STR, SKL, and DEF cap, and since you could have a crap-ton of BEXP in Part 4 (I know I always do). If you gave him 5 levels of BEXP (18/15/1) then he'd get an extra 4-5 HP, 3-4 SPD, 3-4 LUK, and 1-3 RES.

HP: 40->44-45

STR: 28->28

SKL: 28->28

SPD: 20->23-24

LUK: 13->16-17

DEF: 27->27

RES: 13->14-17

How much does this do for him? Well, he's no longer doubled by 4-1 Halbs, Warriors, 1 of the Snipers, and maybe the Falcos. He doubles the Bishops and with some luck he could double some of the Sages. And of course, the extra HP/LUK/RES won't hurt him.

I said 18/10/1 because that gives the skill he'll have. Whatever else you do isn't boosting his impale proc rate, and that is what I was talking about. Besides, any idea how much bexp it costs at 20/10 to get him to 20/15?

3000 + 3100 + 3200 + 3300 + 3400 = 3200 x 5 = 16000 bexp. (trust me).

Any idea how much you actually get in HM? Oh, it is simple enough to do in NM, and I suppose you could. But he's basically taking almost all of it to get less speed than your other units have anyway. Not exactly the best use of bexp. On NM it is more reasonable because you have so much and it only costs 1550 + 1600 + 1650 + 1700 + 1750 = 1650 x 5 = 8250. So you have twice as much and it costs just a little more than half as much.

Sorry, he's not getting 16000 on HM. Sadly, the DB just don't have the availability during tier 2 after capping things to make use of bexp in the same way the GMs can. (re: cheaply.)

A GM can go through 4 or 5 chapters and top up their level each time and use about one fifth as much bexp as Aran uses to get similar results (boosting stats), only their stats allow them to actually double.

Ignoring all that, we were talking about his offense. His skill determines his offense when he doesn't double, since his skill affects his crit and his proc for impale. There was no real mention of the other stats in the post to which I responded, so I didn't bother boosting his levels above what it took to cap the relevant stat.

[Rewjeo]

Didn't realize that it also takes more BEXP in HM, I thought you only got less. Nevermind, then.

[Narga_Rocks]

Didn't realize that it also takes more BEXP in HM, I thought you only got less. Nevermind, then.

That's HM for you. They didn't skimp on the annoying ways to damage various characters' potentials.

Still, this is what Aran can reasonably do, maybe:

hit 20/10.8 before 3-13 (I'm actually not certain of this, and kinda doubt it, though paragon in 3-6 may pull it off and unless you are raising more than 3 DBs that aren't named Micaiah/Sothe you might as well let them all have paragon once (Sothe and Micaiah don't get to use it in part 3). Still not sure if it is possible.

If you can pull it off, here is what you get:

For enough bexp to give 1.2 levels, aka 3100 + (.2)(3000) = 3700 bexp you can get him two shots at trying to get more spd because of capping other things.

Then fight a bunch, still in 2nd tier. In 4-P/1/2, give him enough to get 2 levels again. Probably from 20/13.8 to 20/15 or something. Maybe 20/14.8 to 20/16. I'll go with the cheaper one. 3400 + (.2)(3300) = 4060 bexp. Total bexp spent is 8760, which to be honest is probably still more than double what the GMs are using (and probably too high a percentage of the DB's total bexp), but certainly more reasonable than 16000, and still pulls off some spd boosting. With a 35% growth and assuming spd is guaranteed (which it isn't), then he is getting 4 x .65 = 2.6 more spd than normal. Probably more like 2.3 more on average, on the chance he'll get something other than spd. 3rd highest growth (or whatever it is) isn't nearly guaranteed unless it is a lot higher than 4th best growth.

[Rewjeo]

2 SPD isn't doing him as much good as 4, I don't know how much good it'd do. The 16,000 BEXP might also be cut down if he gets some extra Paragon, not sure if that would work. IDK, it doesn't really look like there's much you can do for him in HM come part 4.

It would be interesting to see an accurate NM tier list to see how different it is from the HM tier list. BEXP becomes way cheaper there.

[Candlejack]

ITT: Alfredo is retarded if he thinks Haar is lower than Mia.

[Anouleth]

ITT: Alfredo is retarded if he thinks Haar is lower than Mia.

In Alfredo's defense, he described his tier list as a 'long run tier list'. This explains stuff such as Edward>Zihark and Rolf>Shinon, although it creates quite a few problems as well (Haar>Jill, Elincia anywhere other than Top Tier).

[Candlejack]

This list just fails in general.

If this is long run Tier List, then you'd have to baby a lot of the characters to get them even REMOTELY close to others.

This list is more theoretical than logical.