who is better Harr Ike Jill or shinon

[Naglfar]

I don't know, I wanted to see where it would take us. Nowhere, apparently.

Also to punctuate that "Jill > Haar" is a silly statement and you should feel bad for saying it. Unless we're talking about FE9. Which we aren't.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Naglfar

[Narga_Rocks]

Volug was so useless because he couldn't double

Please present evidence that there is a chapter in which Volug has trouble doubling.

You realize thanks to minimal exp gain in part 1 and halfshift stats he only has 19 AS for basically all of part 1.

95% hp, 25% str, 15% mag, 35% skl, 40% spd, 90% luck, 15% def, 10% res

Now, I suppose you could give him bexp at some point and hope that he procs spd instead of skl. They are really close. He'd have 21 AS and double all but myrms and maybe a few bosses for all of part 1. I think only Jarod and myrms have more than 17 AS.

But otherwise all those 16+ AS bandits in 1-8 and the 16+ AS soldiers and fighters and whatever else in 1-E aren't getting doubled either.

Of course, the person's original statement was about 3-13 and thus flawed as I pointed out earlier, but your statement allows me to look at any chapter.

[Candlejack]

Now, I suppose you could give him bexp at some point and hope that he procs spd instead of skl. They are really close. He'd have 21 AS and double all but myrms and maybe a few bosses for all of part 1. I think only Jarod and myrms have more than 17 AS.

You may as well since the only other character worthwhile is Jill. But imo, Volug > Jill in Part 1 and MAYBE Part 3.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Merlinus the Jew

[Deliriyum]

@Edward, last time I checked, isn't he pretty much essential to part 1, and 3-13 if you are planning on killing the mercs?

@Jill and Haar: I feel like Jill would be more of a variation of Haar with all around less stats, but with the AS to double mostly everything if they had equal opportunities, but they don't, so she isn't

@Volug: IIRC, he doesn't typically have enough might to one round the laguz in 3-13, or maybe thats just the tigers, anyway, his avoid is lacking a bit as well, depending on if he has a support around.

[Candlejack]

@Edward, last time I checked, isn't he pretty much essential to part 1, and 3-13 if you are planning on killing the mercs?

@Jill and Haar: I feel like Jill would be more of a variation of Haar with all around less stats, but with the AS to double mostly everything if they had equal opportunities, but they don't, so she isn't

@Volug: IIRC, he doesn't typically have enough might to one round the laguz in 3-13, or maybe thats just the tigers, anyway, his avoid is lacking a bit as well, depending on if he has a support around.

1. Unless walling people with your face is essential then no.

2. Jill and Haar get equal benefits but Haar is not only around for longer but makes a much larger contribution in his chapters.

3. Err, I suppose 20/21 base SPD combined with a weightless weapon, 13 base LCK with 90% growth, and Earth affinity don't warrant a good avoid? Compared to say, everyone, on your team... and even if he DOES get hit he has more than enough HP to survive the hit.

[Deliriyum]

@Edward, last time I checked, isn't he pretty much essential to part 1, and 3-13 if you are planning on killing the mercs?

@Jill and Haar: I feel like Jill would be more of a variation of Haar with all around less stats, but with the AS to double mostly everything if they had equal opportunities, but they don't, so she isn't

@Volug: IIRC, he doesn't typically have enough might to one round the laguz in 3-13, or maybe thats just the tigers, anyway, his avoid is lacking a bit as well, depending on if he has a support around.

1. Unless walling people with your face is essential then no.

2. Jill and Haar get equal benefits but Haar is not only around for longer but makes a much larger contribution in his chapters.

3. Err, I suppose 20/21 base SPD combined with a weightless weapon, 13 base LCK with 90% growth, and Earth affinity don't warrant a good avoid? Compared to say, everyone, on your team... and even if he DOES get hit he has more than enough HP to survive the hit.

Yes Edward has a bad beginning, but if he grows, he will turn into a good unit. His averages at the same level as Zihark beat Zihark's except for speed, def, and res, Also Edward has time to develop a support with pretty much anyone, I'm looking at Nolan specifically. Zihark does have earth, but unless you abuse him with someone, he will only likely have a C support by endgame, if that.

[Narga_Rocks]

@Edward, last time I checked, isn't he pretty much essential to part 1, and 3-13 if you are planning on killing the mercs?

@Jill and Haar: I feel like Jill would be more of a variation of Haar with all around less stats, but with the AS to double mostly everything if they had equal opportunities, but they don't, so she isn't

@Volug: IIRC, he doesn't typically have enough might to one round the laguz in 3-13, or maybe thats just the tigers, anyway, his avoid is lacking a bit as well, depending on if he has a support around.

1. Unless walling people with your face is essential then no.

2. Jill and Haar get equal benefits but Haar is not only around for longer but makes a much larger contribution in his chapters.

3. Err, I suppose 20/21 base SPD combined with a weightless weapon, 13 base LCK with 90% growth, and Earth affinity don't warrant a good avoid? Compared to say, everyone, on your team... and even if he DOES get hit he has more than enough HP to survive the hit.

Yes Edward has a bad beginning, but if he grows, he will turn into a good unit. His averages at the same level as Zihark beat Zihark's except for speed, def, and res, Also Edward has time to develop a support with pretty much anyone, I'm looking at Nolan specifically. Zihark does have earth, but unless you abuse him with someone, he will only likely have a C support by endgame, if that.

How can you talk badly about Mia in fe9 but positively about Edward in fe10? Mia has chapter 8 where she's good against armors with armorslayer and decent against the other enemies (use other weapons). Bexp is a good idea on her, but you have enough to put a good amount on her and multiple other units anyway. Chapter 9 has a beach where she gets extra avo and brings the axe users there down below 30 listed (some below 20) and is helpful enough for assisting in saving the houses.

Ed is never all that great in his early part 1 chapters where he is helpful. In 1-P he's really important for finishing it efficiently (Micaiah can technically solo if she takes Leo's draco before facing the boss and manages to proc something in the level she'll get before facing the boss. Obviously Leo makes her life easier) and in 1-4 he's a good wall since he doesn't face crits, but 1-1 he sees limited (though still important) use, and beyond that it isn't much.

Then he's severely outclassed by all your other options and it's just an overall bad idea to raise him. As for their averages at equal levels, why is he ever at an equal level to Zihark? Zihark outperforms him the whole way and starts a lot of levels ahead. Maybe by part 4 they'll be pretty close in level, but not until then. In the mean time, Ed is basically quite bad while you are trying to get him up to Z's level.

Also, why wouldn't Zihark have a C for 1-E? If you try hard enough you might pull off a B for 1-E by getting a C after 1-6 and a B after 1-8, so a B is reliant on limiting your strategic options in 1-6 in order to keep him adjacent to someone, but a C should be so easy to achieve for 1-E. With any of the 02s in the team, 3 chapters together (1-6, 1-7, 1-8) means 45 points. He needs to stand adjacent to some unit precisely 2 times total in 3 chapters. If you can't pull that off, what are you doing? With Volug he gets 48 points just from being in the chapters, so a single adjacent or a single shove is all it takes to pull off a C for 1-E, and you have 3 chapters to just do one thing.

[Naglfar]

Volug was so useless because he couldn't double

Please present evidence that there is a chapter in which Volug has trouble doubling.

You realize thanks to minimal exp gain in part 1 and halfshift stats he only has 19 AS for basically all of part 1.

95% hp, 25% str, 15% mag, 35% skl, 40% spd, 90% luck, 15% def, 10% res

Now, I suppose you could give him bexp at some point and hope that he procs spd instead of skl. They are really close. He'd have 21 AS and double all but myrms and maybe a few bosses for all of part 1. I think only Jarod and myrms have more than 17 AS.

But otherwise all those 16+ AS bandits in 1-8 and the 16+ AS soldiers and fighters and whatever else in 1-E aren't getting doubled either.

Of course, the person's original statement was about 3-13 and thus flawed as I pointed out earlier, but your statement allows me to look at any chapter.

Ah, right. I tend to miss this stuff.

But yeah. There are definitely no doubling problems in part three unless you keep Wildheart on him. Which you aren't doing.

[Candlejack]

Edward is bad because he has bad bases, bad affinity, difficult chapters, and overall superior characters.

Fuck I'd rather take Lucia over Edward. At least she gets Earth...

[Fayt Zelpher]

Edward is bad because he has bad bases, bad affinity, difficult chapters, and overall superior characters.

I'd rather take Lucia over Edward. At least she gets Earth...

Actually, I find H2O to be a superior affinity myself (slightly better than earth). I'd never pair two water affinities together, but I'd take 2 atk and def over 22 avoid on anything that's not an SM/TB. Water x Earth is the best pairing, and Earth x Earth is second best.

[Narga_Rocks]

Edward is bad because he has bad bases, bad affinity, difficult chapters, and overall superior characters.

Fuck I'd rather take Lucia over Edward. At least she gets Earth...

Edward is in a game where the enemies grow faster than he does. He'd be fine in fe9. In fact, relative to enemies he's kinda similar to Mia and Zihark when he first appears (1-P) to when they first appear in PoR (chapter 7, chapter 11). He doubles most things but doesn't ORKO them, and has some durability problems but is 3RKOd or better by most things instead of 2RKOd by most things. In PoR it just happens that Mia and Zihark grow faster than the enemies and continue to double almost everything (except Ravens, though even those get doubled by the two myrms with wise spending of bexp) and never drop to where they are 2HKOd by almost everything in existence. If Ed had innate (hence free) paragon rather than innate wrath he might actually be usable. It's not like you'd be removing it from him for Sothe or Volug, so he'd get it until 1-6 at the very least unless you really want to stick it on Micaiah for some reason. Then he might actually grow fast enough to mirror Mia/Zihark's PoR performance. Mia/Zihark also didn't have to deal with a promoted swordmaster showing up before they could be near promotion. Stefan showing up at the end of chapter 15 when they are only about a chapter from their own promotion isn't so bad. Especially when he's got such low luck. With Z showing up in 1-6, there isn't much point in Ed's post 1-5 existence anyway. I'm not sure even innate Paragon would get him to a high enough level by 1-6 to save him. Maybe delaying Zihark until 1-8 and giving Ed Innate Paragon would save him, but that could actually screw over Zihark significantly so it wouldn't be a good thing.

Actually, I find H2O to be a superior affinity myself (slightly better than earth). I'd never pair two water affinities together, but I'd take 2 atk and def over 22 avoid on anything that's not an SM/TB. Water x Earth is the best pairing, and Earth x Earth is second best.

If Mist had more spd and Florete used mag to attack res I'd consider pairing her with Ike. It's insanely fast (00 00 support and staff access) and they can have an A by 3-3, and if she could start doubling by, say, 3-4 or something I'd totally do it. (High luck and high enough spd to double plus Ike's earth support would hopefully be enough to give her enough durability for it to not be a horrible idea.) It probably would still not be the most efficient pairing, but I'd use it for my own playthroughs because I like Mist and proper magic swords.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Candlejack]

Water > Earth?

Marginal bonuses in ATK and DEF aren't exactly > than 7.5 AVO bonus. And if you pair Earth with another Earth, you get +15 AVO to each character with a C, rounding up to a possible +45 AVO for each character. That is nucking futs. Earth also gets better characters than Water; Nolan, Volug, Zihark, Ike, Oscar, Caineghis, and even Renning could be used in a pinch. Not saying you COULD support those two but still. But Earth also gets lolFiona, lolLucia, and Tanith, as well as Ena, but she has Blood Tide.

Who does Water have? Leonardo, Sigrun, Pelleas, Brom, Mist, and Kurthnaga. Granted, you also have Mordecai and Leanne. But Reyson > Leanne and royals > Mordecai.

[Narga_Rocks]

Water > Earth?

Marginal bonuses in ATK and DEF aren't exactly > than 7.5 AVO bonus. And if you pair Earth with another Earth, you get +15 AVO to each character with a C, rounding up to a possible +45 AVO for each character. That is nucking futs. Earth also gets better characters than Water; Nolan, Volug, Zihark, Ike, Oscar, Caineghis, and even Renning could be used in a pinch. Not saying you COULD support those two but still. But Earth also gets lolFiona, lolLucia, and Tanith, as well as Ena, but she has Blood Tide.

Who does Water have? Leonardo, Sigrun, Pelleas, Brom, Mist, and Kurthnaga. Granted, you also have Mordecai and Leanne. But Reyson > Leanne and royals > Mordecai.

The only units that even care about Earth x Earth are Zihark and Nolan, and Nolan only cares at the beginning of part 4 before his hp/def get better. Nolan doesn't care about Earth x Earth in part 1 or part 3, and Volug might enjoy Earth x Earth in 3-12, but doesn't really care elsewhere. The rest of your units listed would rather have water x earth than earth x earth anyway.

[Candlejack]

Who cares about getting hit when you can not get hit?

EDIT: Although +45 AVO seems a bit overkill in retrospect. And if Water > Earth, then why do so many units in the game want Earth supports?

Edited January 7, 2010 by Merlinus the Jew

[Narga_Rocks]

Who cares about getting hit when you can not get hit?

Wha? It's about the +mt part of water, not the +def part. Getting hit 1 time in a map (or even 0) instead of getting hit 2 or 3 times isn't really an important difference if you have enough durability that you can get hit twice and not die. There are healers for a reason. Causing 2 extra damage will either allow more ORKOs or cause extra damage such that other units can now OHKO instead of 2HKO and get countered. In any case, the point is that aside from Zihark water x earth is generally more efficient than earth x earth. It's just too bad that there aren't better water options out there. Hence the superiority of fire x earth for Ike over supporting him with Oscar. Actually, even with better water options Ike doesn't care about more def so fire x earth would still be better for him. But regardless of fire's existence, water x earth is better for Ike than earth x earth, and it's not like Oscar is getting hit all that much anyway thanks to his own earth and he truly does need the extra mt in a lot of situations.

[Fayt Zelpher]

Water > Earth?

Marginal bonuses in ATK and DEF aren't exactly > than 7.5 AVO bonus. And if you pair Earth with another Earth, you get +15 AVO to each character with a C, rounding up to a possible +45 AVO for each character. That is nucking futs. Earth also gets better characters than Water; Nolan, Volug, Zihark, Ike, Oscar, Caineghis, and even Renning could be used in a pinch. Not saying you COULD support those two but still. But Earth also gets lolFiona, lolLucia, and Tanith, as well as Ena, but she has Blood Tide.

Who does Water have? Leonardo, Sigrun, Pelleas, Brom, Mist, and Kurthnaga. Granted, you also have Mordecai and Leanne. But Reyson > Leanne and royals > Mordecai.

Ulki was definitely Water in PoR... did he change affinities in this game? And, as I said, what you want to do is avoid pairing waters together, since water x earth is +2 atk, +2 def, and + 23 AVO and water x water is +3 atk, +3 def. I'll grant that 23 AVO > +1/+1, but is it better than +2/+2? If you're a TB/whisper and live and die by avoiding, then yes. If you're a tank like Gatrie or Mordecai, you're still taking a lot of hits. And, as has been said earlier, everyone wants the ATK boost. I'd actually say that Nolan would be better with water than earth anyway, since warriors are fast enough to double (on NM, at least) and have the HP to tank. Whatever they can't 1RKO before, they can now.

Getting hit 1 time in a map (or even 0) instead of getting hit 2 or 3 times isn't really an important difference if you have enough durability that you can get hit twice and not die. There are healers for a reason.

Don't forget that we still have plenty of concoctions and elixirs. Even Vulneraries are +20 HP, which is quite substantial.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[Narga_Rocks]

Getting hit 1 time in a map (or even 0) instead of getting hit 2 or 3 times isn't really an important difference if you have enough durability that you can get hit twice and not die. There are healers for a reason.

Don't forget that we still have plenty of concoctions and elixirs. Even Vulneraries are +20 HP, which is quite substantial.

The thing about a healer is that they save your good unit a turn. What's better, having your 8th best fighter on the map to attack while your 2nd best fighter is self healing, or dumping that 8th best fighter for a healer that can allow your 2nd best fighter to not waste turns?

[Fayt Zelpher]

Getting hit 1 time in a map (or even 0) instead of getting hit 2 or 3 times isn't really an important difference if you have enough durability that you can get hit twice and not die. There are healers for a reason.

Don't forget that we still have plenty of concoctions and elixirs. Even Vulneraries are +20 HP, which is quite substantial.

The thing about a healer is that they save your good unit a turn. What's better, having your 8th best fighter on the map to attack while your 2nd best fighter is self healing, or dumping that 8th best fighter for a healer that can allow your 2nd best fighter to not waste turns?

I agree with your post, but if you only have one healer and need to heal 2 posts and can't retreat your unit for tactical reasons. Are you going to always have 2 or 3 healers with you in every map? You don't always have this luxury (Elincia is your only healer for all of part 3, and she's only in 2 of the 5 chapters.) And even if that weren't an issue, will you be able to get your healer over to where he/she needs to be. Physic staffs are quite limited and Fortify isn't available until 2/3 through 4-4. Healing items are useful, though a healer is preferred.

[Catnip]

I'm sort of butting into the middle of a conversation here, but I've thought about it, played around with the game a bit, and decided to change my vote to Haar. His flying, plus the easy use of Nullify (not like thunder is going to hit him) makes him unkillable, and with room to grow.

[Fayt Zelpher]

I'm sort of butting into the middle of a conversation here, but I've thought about it, played around with the game a bit, and decided to change my vote to Haar. His flying, plus the easy use of Nullify (not like thunder is going to hit him) makes him unkillable, and with room to grow.

While I respect your choice, I must say that I find Nullify to go much better on a true flyer (i.e. pegasus or bird) because of all the crossbows that are basically OHKO's. Even base Naesala transformed goes to low single digit HP and Tibarn is down to ~10. They need it more than Wyvern Riders...

[Narga_Rocks]

Getting hit 1 time in a map (or even 0) instead of getting hit 2 or 3 times isn't really an important difference if you have enough durability that you can get hit twice and not die. There are healers for a reason.

Don't forget that we still have plenty of concoctions and elixirs. Even Vulneraries are +20 HP, which is quite substantial.

The thing about a healer is that they save your good unit a turn. What's better, having your 8th best fighter on the map to attack while your 2nd best fighter is self healing, or dumping that 8th best fighter for a healer that can allow your 2nd best fighter to not waste turns?

I agree with your post, but if you only have one healer and need to heal 2 posts and can't retreat your unit for tactical reasons. Are you going to always have 2 or 3 healers with you in every map? You don't always have this luxury (Elincia is your only healer for all of part 3, and she's only in 2 of the 5 chapters.) And even if that weren't an issue, will you be able to get your healer over to where he/she needs to be. Physic staffs are quite limited and Fortify isn't available until 2/3 through 4-4. Healing items are useful, though a healer is preferred.

In an emergency, sure, healing items. Or in chapters like 2-1 and 2-2 where you don't have a healer (Leanne's little thing at the beginning of each turn in 2-2 hardly counts). But in general it's simple enough to have healers do stuff in part 3 and 4. In part 1 Laura can get overworked, though, and healing items are necessary. But I frequently don't even need Rhys/Mist to heal something so I just have them attack (feebly, in Mist's case).

I'm sort of butting into the middle of a conversation here, but I've thought about it, played around with the game a bit, and decided to change my vote to Haar. His flying, plus the easy use of Nullify (not like thunder is going to hit him) makes him unkillable, and with room to grow.

While I respect your choice, I must say that I find Nullify to go much better on a true flyer (i.e. pegasus or bird) because of all the crossbows that are basically OHKO's. Even base Naesala transformed goes to low single digit HP and Tibarn is down to ~10. They need it more than Wyvern Riders...

Not to mention that Haar faces crit from elthunder mages for a long time anyway, and getting criticalled while being 3HKOd (nullify) is just as deadly as getting criticalled while being 2HKOd (no nullify). Also, there aren't really all that many thunder sages.

However, it's not as if you actually have another fighting flier until Janaff/Ulki in 3-7 anyway. I don't think it's worth saving for Marcia in 3-9.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Naglfar]

royals > Mordecai.

Mordecai is plenty good enough if you choose to use him, and he even has time to build supports, which happens to be the current topic. Royals, on the other hand, have hardly any time to build supports thanks to their availability.

Plus, by part four, when your royals have (mostly) joined for good, if you've been using Mordy, he'd have Roar, plenty of grass to smoke, and probably enough laguz stone uses to last him until Endgame and its laguz gems. At that time, Mordy's only shortcomings compared to royals would be lack of Formshift (like one player phase lost per map) and heavy doubling issues.

Still, he doesn't take damage easily and is quite helpful during the many chapters he's present for. Especially if we're talking about higher-level supports, which Mordy can get and royals mostly can't, you can't just say that royals are better.

In any case, it's sad that Mordy is the only decent unit with a water affinity (not counting Leanne, but she's not supporting anybody anyway). This doesn't mean that earth > water, however; remember that the unit doesn't make the affinity, the affinity makes the unit. Earth > water is because of the bonuses they give, not because of the units who have them.

EDIT: Ulki has water too.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Naglfar

[Fayt Zelpher]

I'm sort of butting into the middle of a conversation here, but I've thought about it, played around with the game a bit, and decided to change my vote to Haar. His flying, plus the easy use of Nullify (not like thunder is going to hit him) makes him unkillable, and with room to grow.

While I respect your choice, I must say that I find Nullify to go much better on a true flyer (i.e. pegasus or bird) because of all the crossbows that are basically OHKO's. Even base Naesala transformed goes to low single digit HP and Tibarn is down to ~10. They need it more than Wyvern Riders...

Not to mention that Haar faces crit from elthunder mages for a long time anyway, and getting criticalled while being 3HKOd (nullify) is just as deadly as getting criticalled while being 2HKOd (no nullify). Also, there aren't really all that many thunder sages.

However, it's not as if you actually have another fighting flier until Janaff/Ulki in 3-7 anyway. I don't think it's worth saving for Marcia in 3-9.

Fair enough. You can give it to Haar until 3-7 and then transfer it to a Hawk for 3-8. I'm pretty sure there are a fair number of bows/x-bows in 3-8, and there are a lot of them in 3-10, though, so if you're using a hawk, they need the nullify.

[Candlejack]

Mordecai IS amazing.

But the royals are just lolbroken.

@Pegi getting Nullify- too bad most peg knights you get in the game either have no availability (Elincia/Marcia) or just suck (Tanith/Sigrun). You shouldn't normally be deploying those four unless its Part 2, and even then it's only to improve Elincia/Marcia's levels; nothing further. You shouldn't give Nullify to Pegis, ergo, since like in many of IS's games, Wyverns > Pegasus.

[Fayt Zelpher]

Mordecai IS amazing.

But the royals are just lolbroken.

@Pegi getting Nullify- too bad most peg knights you get in the game either have no availability (Elincia/Marcia) or just suck (Tanith/Sigrun). You shouldn't normally be deploying those four unless its Part 2, and even then it's only to improve Elincia/Marcia's levels; nothing further. You shouldn't give Nullify to Pegis, ergo, since like in many of IS's games, Wyverns > Pegasus.

It's not going to a pegasus, except maybe Elincia. It's going to a Hawk. Or Naesala. The Royal flyers are taking 50+ damage from x-bows with >60 displayed accuracy. Or are you going to tell me that they suck too? After you already said they were broken?