Hard Mode Weapon Triangle

[Fayt Zelpher]

Personally, if this game is to be about strategy and not just unit stats, I think that IS should have doubled the WT in Hard Mode. We would now have a good reason to train at least one unit of multiple types, and it rewards us for taking advantage of the WT. It really helps some of the units (Edward can dodge axes without face-blocking them, and Nolan would actually have to watch out for Myrms/SM's. What do you think?

Edited January 4, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[nflchamp]

8x.

That'll teach ya to pay attention to it.

[Fayt Zelpher]

8x.

That'll teach ya to pay attention to it.

That seems a bit overkill to me, but, if that's what you think. Personally, I'd think that anything more than 3x is overkill, seeing as how after that, your accuracy goes to dust anyway.

[Narga_Rocks]

Personally, if this game is to be about strategy and not just unit stats, I think that IS should have doubled the WT in Hard Mode. We would now have a good reason to train at least one unit of multiple types, and it rewards us for taking advantage of the WT. It really helps some of the units (Edward can dodge axes without face-blocking them, and Nolan would actually have to watch out for Myrms/SM's. What do you think?

Personally my favourite weapon triangle was fe4. And not just because Light = Dark and Light, Dark > Anima. I liked the +/- 20 hit but leaving mt the same. Frankly it's annoying trying to calculate whether or not a unit will die if it gets hit by everything when I have to check weapon types on 4 or 5 different attackers. Or forgetting and looking at some enemies and expecting them to die on the enemy phase only to see them live with 1 or 2 hp. But I like the fact that it was so much harder to hit (and forges would mitigate the problem for Player units). Of course, it would hurt some of my favourite characters in HM if they faced an extra 20 hit from certain enemies (compared to the current HM) when they are trying to dodge, but oh well. Can't have everything.

[nflchamp]

8x.

That'll teach ya to pay attention to it.

That seems a bit overkill to me, but, if that's what you think. Personally, I'd think that anything more than 3x is overkill, seeing as how after that, your accuracy goes to dust anyway.

It's hard mode, I don't care if your accuracy is destroyed due to weapon triangle. Conversely, your avoid rocks when you works for you.

[Nephinel]

They should've kept the WT. I don't know whether removing it constituted another layer of fake difficulty (in addition to removing the ability to check enemy movement range, giving less EXP, and replacing the Battle Save option with the Suspend option from previous games), but considering that Hard mode is known as Maniac mode in the JP version...

[Deliriyum]

They should've kept the WT. I don't know whether removing it constituted another layer of fake difficulty (in addition to removing the ability to check enemy movement range, giving less EXP, and replacing the Battle Save option with the Suspend option from previous games), but considering that Hard mode is known as Maniac mode in the JP version...

I thought that maniac mode was a whole different mode, different from our hard mode, but I may be wrong

[Fayt Zelpher]

They should've kept the WT. I don't know whether removing it constituted another layer of fake difficulty (in addition to removing the ability to check enemy movement range, giving less EXP, and replacing the Battle Save option with the Suspend option from previous games), but considering that Hard mode is known as Maniac mode in the JP version...

I thought that maniac mode was a whole different mode, different from our hard mode, but I may be wrong

That's PoR you're thinking of. In RD, they just renamed them from NM, HM, MM to EM, NM, HM. Personally, I think that the Japanese names were more accurate.

[Narga_Rocks]

They should've kept the WT. I don't know whether removing it constituted another layer of fake difficulty (in addition to removing the ability to check enemy movement range, giving less EXP, and replacing the Battle Save option with the Suspend option from previous games), but considering that Hard mode is known as Maniac mode in the JP version...

I thought that maniac mode was a whole different mode, different from our hard mode, but I may be wrong

That's PoR you're thinking of. In RD, they just renamed them from NM, HM, MM to EM, NM, HM. Personally, I think that the Japanese names were more accurate.

I suppose various critics were so bad that they had issues in part 1 on RD, but honestly with the amount of bexp that the game throws at you later on in EM and the huge exp gains I think that the modes are more aptly named outside of Japan.

Honestly, anyone else play EM and see Haar promote in 2-E? EM is just too easy. Also, there isn't really any doubt whatsoever about Marcia's superiority over Tanith in EM when Marcia can show up in 3-11 at level 15 or more and trounce Tanith in everything except maybe str, but even that will be close if Marcia doesn't tie anyway and Marcia could have a C support as well.

[NinjaMonkey]

Honestly, anyone else play EM and see Haar promote in 2-E?

No, not really. Haar usually promotes in 3-5 when I play...

[Catnip]

Sorry that I'm not really adding to the continuing conversation, but I think they should have kept and doubled the weapon triangle for HM. It's called "Maniac Mode" (well, it WAS), and +/- 20 hit really makes it MANIAC! People would really start to pay a lot more attention to the Weapon Triangle, even if they were paying attention to it now. An 80 hit chance (true hit 92.20) with an iron axe against an iron sword now becomes a 60 hit chance (true hit 68.40), plus the iron axe is down to 6 mt and the iron sword is at 8 mt. This trend continues with the mass of varied generals used in Part 4. This would give Marshalls and the nerfed Gold/Silver Knights a lot better usage because of their weapon triangle dominance.

[Fayt Zelpher]

Sorry that I'm not really adding to the continuing conversation, but I think they should have kept and doubled the weapon triangle for HM. It's called "Maniac Mode" (well, it WAS), and +/- 20 hit really makes it MANIAC! People would really start to pay a lot more attention to the Weapon Triangle, even if they were paying attention to it now. An 80 hit chance (true hit 92.20) with an iron axe against an iron sword now becomes a 60 hit chance (true hit 68.40), plus the iron axe is down to 6 mt and the iron sword is at 8 mt. This trend continues with the mass of varied generals used in Part 4. This would give Marshalls and the nerfed Gold/Silver Knights a lot better usage because of their weapon triangle dominance.

Now, I've never played HM, and I'm sure that means that everything I say in this topic is meaningless and devalued, but it seems that getting rid of the weapon triangle is just adding artificial difficulty (along with no Battle Saves). Difficulty should come from the strategy factor, not the 'we can't make the game more difficult so we're going to make you be extremely lucky to have a chance at beating it' factor. I figure that doubling the WT makes it so that you actually can win the game with a good strategy and a little (but not a lot of) luck (the real world kind, not the stat).

[Catnip]

That's exactly what I thought when I first looked at Hard Mode differences. Not showing enemies' attack ranges? No Battle Saves? As you said, "artificial difficulty". And as I said, this would save the Gold/Silver Knights, because of their ability to wield two weapons (doesn't work as well for Silver Knights, but were you planning on using Astrid, Fiona, and Geoffrey a lot in HM anyway?).

[Fayt Zelpher]

That's exactly what I thought when I first looked at Hard Mode differences. Not showing enemies' attack ranges? No Battle Saves? As you said, "artificial difficulty". And as I said, this would save the Gold/Silver Knights, because of their ability to wield two weapons (doesn't work as well for Silver Knights, but were you planning on using Astrid, Fiona, and Geoffrey a lot in HM anyway?).

Geoffrey could work out alright, but it's not like he's making it to third tier anyway. He's giving his paragon (and brave lance) to the other CRK's so the GM's can gain more experience for the end of Part 3. He can go watch Ike save the world from the bench after that. As for the CRK's themselves, Marcia is the only one worth using anyway.

And thanks for reminding me about not showing the enemy movement range, and the reinforcements showing up at the beginning of the turn instead of the end. It's like IS is just out to make the game as nasty as possible, using illegitimate means whenever possible.

[Catnip]

That's exactly what I thought when I first looked at Hard Mode differences. Not showing enemies' attack ranges? No Battle Saves? As you said, "artificial difficulty". And as I said, this would save the Gold/Silver Knights, because of their ability to wield two weapons (doesn't work as well for Silver Knights, but were you planning on using Astrid, Fiona, and Geoffrey a lot in HM anyway?).

Geoffrey could work out alright, but it's not like he's making it to third tier anyway. He's giving his paragon (and brave lance) to the other CRK's so the GM's can gain more experience for the end of Part 3. He can go watch Ike save the world from the bench after that. As for the CRK's themselves, Marcia is the only one worth using anyway.

And thanks for reminding me about not showing the enemy movement range, and the reinforcements showing up at the beginning of the turn instead of the end. It's like IS is just out to make the game as nasty as possible, using illegitimate means whenever possible.

I guess the classic "bump up the levels" wasn't enough for them. They could've made all part 4 bosses 3rd tier instead of just those in the the tower, Izuka, and the fat man. I also would've liked to see just random enemies who happened to be 3rd tier plopped around the map. That would be more fun and more challenging, in my opinion.

[Kinata]

I wish all part 4 enemies were 3rd tier instead of those stupid SP classes. It is pretty clear that the only purpose of the SP class was to give powerful enemies without mastery skills, but come on, it would be so awesome (and rigged) if all enemies had their mastery skills. It would have been a more interesting change than the artificial difficulty changes. And wait, reinforcements in hard mode come at the beginning of the enemy phase? Ouch. Now I know more of what I have to look forward to.

[Catnip]

Or they could have at LEAST given them some unique equipment. All I see are Silver weapons. In PoR there was the occassional normal enemy with a Killer weapon, but you hardly (never?) see that in this game.

[Narga_Rocks]

That's exactly what I thought when I first looked at Hard Mode differences. Not showing enemies' attack ranges? No Battle Saves? As you said, "artificial difficulty". And as I said, this would save the Gold/Silver Knights, because of their ability to wield two weapons (doesn't work as well for Silver Knights, but were you planning on using Astrid, Fiona, and Geoffrey a lot in HM anyway?).

Geoffrey could work out alright, but it's not like he's making it to third tier anyway. He's giving his paragon (and brave lance) to the other CRK's so the GM's can gain more experience for the end of Part 3. He can go watch Ike save the world from the bench after that. As for the CRK's themselves, Marcia is the only one worth using anyway.

And thanks for reminding me about not showing the enemy movement range, and the reinforcements showing up at the beginning of the turn instead of the end. It's like IS is just out to make the game as nasty as possible, using illegitimate means whenever possible.

Um, enemy movement range is incredibly simple to calculate. I figured it out even before the terrain data page appeared on this very site. Also I don't know about Japanese MM, but the hardest mode we have in North America has enemy reinforcements appearing at the end of the turn. Now, in fe5 and some other Fire Emblems the reinforcements appear at the beginning, but not this game.

It's not "fake difficulty", or anything of the sort. It's tedius, that's all.

Also, the removal of the weapon triangle makes things easier, not harder. The only complaint I really have about the lack of weapon triangle is Marcia in 2-P effectively has 10 more avo, making her dodge more frequently and giving Elincia less opportunity to heal. Oh, and Elincia can't damage the boss anymore and I'm pretty sure you actually need to cause damage for stun to be able to activate. That or I just got really unlucky. I never cared about Edward, so the fact he now blocks axes with his face even more frequently doesn't really bother me. Warriors have lowish accuracy with axes in part 3 anyway, so Mia is even better with no weapon triangle because she already dodges the axes quite well and now the lances don't have an extra 10 hit on her. Also bolting does more damage to wind spirits without the WTD they have on NM. I suppose that units with more WT control are a little screwed over by this, but if you choose units not cut out for HM and complain about the difficulty being illegitimate then it is your own fault.

And as for mastery skills in part 4, that would actually be fake difficulty. Enemies randomly blick your characters if you don't constantly have Nihil equipped? It's basically a luck thing then. Also, apparently some masteries override hit rates, so even dodgers like Mia (w/ Ike) and Ike and Zihark (w/ anyone, but especially earth) would face problems.

[Catnip]

Tedius is a good word to describe it, but I don't choose hard mode to be just a headache. I'd prefer it to require a bit more strategy with my unit placement, rather than having to counting how many spaces I have to avoid being attacked.

In addition, the weapon triangle is a known part of the FE series, and a big part to strategists. I don't find it at all necessary to remove it. It would have made things more difficult, in my opinion, because of how the generals in Part 4 all hold a different weapon. The small decreases can make a huge difference; leaving someone with 1 HP and killing them is very different, because there is no absence of Physics in this game.

[Narga_Rocks]

Tedius is a good word to describe it, but I don't choose hard mode to be just a headache. I'd prefer it to require a bit more strategy with my unit placement, rather than having to counting how many spaces I have to avoid being attacked.

In addition, the weapon triangle is a known part of the FE series, and a big part to strategists. I don't find it at all necessary to remove it. It would have made things more difficult, in my opinion, because of how the generals in Part 4 all hold a different weapon. The small decreases can make a huge difference; leaving someone with 1 HP and killing them is very different, because there is no absence of Physics in this game.

Yeah, I'm saying the removal of the weapon triangle makes it easier. I was just disgreeing with calling things "illegitimate means" when they

a: don't make things harder in the first place

b: aren't illegitimate

[Catnip]

Well...I suppose I have nothing to debate you about then. Maybe it does make it easier, but it's not TM*, it's HM.

*Tedius Mode

Edited January 5, 2010 by Catnip

[Fayt Zelpher]

I wish all part 4 enemies were 3rd tier instead of those stupid SP classes. It is pretty clear that the only purpose of the SP class was to give powerful enemies without mastery skills, but come on, it would be so awesome (and rigged) if all enemies had their mastery skills. It would have been a more interesting change than the artificial difficulty changes. And wait, reinforcements in hard mode come at the beginning of the enemy phase? Ouch. Now I know more of what I have to look forward to.

Personally, I'd like to see the masteries nerfed down to levels similar to what they were in PoR. Here's my ideas for the masteries:

Aether, Sol, Luna: same as PoR

Impale: really not that overpowered Maybe 3x damage instead. It'll be like getting extra criticals. (skill%)

Rend: 2x strength attack (speed/2%)

Savage: Skill = 0 for one turn (str%)

Roar: 1 turn paralysis - (no attacking or movement, cannot counterattack, avoid = 0, like sleep) (skill%)

Ire: Same as current

Astra: 5x attacks, 1/2 damage, first 3 can critical (speed%)

Eclipse: enemy Def = 1 for attack (skill%)

Flare: Enemy Res = 1 for attack (mag%) We'll let saints get this skill as well.

Bane: halves enemy HP (skill%)

Lethality: KO's enemy (Crit/4%) Before you say this is too low, remember, Volke gets +25 crit, 15 from baselard, and up to 20 from skill. I'll take a 15% chance of instant KO

Stun: 2 turns of 0 movement - can attack, counterattack, and avoid (skill%)

Deadeye: Battle Accuracy = 100, puts enemy to sleep for 1 turn (skill%)

Colossus: Increase strength by 10% for each point by which attacker Con > defender Con (min +20%)

Tear: Enemy Spd = 1 for one turn (speed/2%)

All skills, except deadeye, can be avoided as well, with the same odds as a normal hit (i.e. does not override hit rate)

Obviously, some (but not all) of the enemy units will have these masteries as well, so I tried to make sure that none of them are going to be 1HKO's (except lethality, but there are no enemy assassins).

What do you people think?

Edited January 5, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[Catnip]

I actually like those a lot! They're very balanced and no more of that "Your dead, and if your not dead, your paralyzed/asleep/your health is now mine, etc.". Plus, now you really have to look at the enemy stats, figure out what could be the rate of that skill happening, and really ask yourself "What could happen if I move there and attack him".

[Fayt Zelpher]

I actually like those a lot! They're very balanced and no more of that "Your dead, and if your not dead, your paralyzed/asleep/your health is now mine, etc.". Plus, now you really have to look at the enemy stats, figure out what could be the rate of that skill happening, and really ask yourself "What could happen if I move there and attack him".

I'm moving this discussion to a new thread, since it has nothing to do with the original topic.

[NinjaMonkey]

Eclipse: enemy Def = 1 for attack (skill%)

Why do you need to change Eclipse, exactly? Only the Black Knight has it and he's only playable for two and a half chapters.