Proposed FE 6 HM tier list.

[Tangerine]

Tangerine's post shows that there is room to take your time, not abuse. The enemy density and power slowing you down is what makes this rank lenient in this game, but I'd still wager that you can't downright abuse anything. 600 turns for the whole game? That allows you to not rush.

To S-rank HHM in FE7 you are given 300~ turns. FE7 is much longer and has 0 turn chapters. In FE6 you have twice as many turns. That isn't a little room, that's over 300 turns of room.

[Florete]

I did specify in the OP that it's a ranked run immediately after you said to. I can't edit the title. No need to get hostile.

Yes, I know, but you were acting as if I was the perpetrator when I was only responding to you.

Tangerine's post shows that there is room to take your time, not abuse. The enemy density and power slowing you down is what makes this rank lenient in this game, but I'd still wager that you can't downright abuse anything. 600 turns for the whole game? That allows you to not rush.

With all sidequests and the last 3 maps included, 600 turns means a little more than 19 turns per map. That's already a lot, not to mention there will be those that you can finish faster.

Either way, my argument that "don't abuse" leaves way too much room for opinion-based arguments still stands. The Tactics rank is concrete and never changes and sets limits on what you can and can't do. "Don't abuse" allows too much room to make silly arguments.

Other topic on this one.

[Dat Nick]

I said this? Maric is better. Why would I disagree with this?

cough

Calm down. I'm perfectly willing to debate both. It just so happens that I prefer one way and you prefer another.

That isn't the message "Your way of tiering this is silly" sends, but whatever, if you're willing to leave it at that, I am.

anyway how do ranks change the fact that ray is a below mediocre unit. high tier=wtf

[CATS]

Inui says that buyable Nosferatu makes him invulnerable. Maybe you can start by examining that claim, personally idk.

[Inui]

I said Maric is better from the start. I said you can turn Linda into a Cleric to easily raise her up, not arena abuse her.

I agree with your views on the Experience rank and somewhat agree with your views on the Funds rank. I do not agree about the other three, however. Oh well.

I explained Ray quite well in the OP.

[CATS]

Lalum and Elphin are both not high tier. Why is this? They are locked to 5 Mov and 100% useless (and even sometimes burdens) on the enemy phase. It's often better to just field an additional combat unit. Lalum gets bonus points for supporting Echidna that make her clearly better than Elphin, but both have too many big issues to be considered that good. They're not Ninian/Nils with h4x rings and initially good durability.

This is wrong. FE6 allows considerably more units on the field than FE7, so the argument that adding another combatant > adding a dancer is even more false. By the time you get down to the 14th or 15th best attacker you're almost into the mediocre Upper Mid units. Those units' enemy phases are very rarely worth utilizing over the superior enemy phases of upper-high and top tiers. Why would I bother to let someone counter when they aren't going to one-round, as opposed to letting all the enemies attack Alan/Lance/etc and get raped or at least have a higher chance to die? It just slows you down and it's rarely useful.

Which leads me to my next point. In this game Combat is harder than Tactics; having 5 move is thus almost totally irrelevant. There's nothing wrong with moving slowly, you don't have to rush at all. Meanwhile, by allowing the very best attackers to move again, dancers contribute strongly towards your Combat ranking. Letting Rutger attack twice is obviously better for Combat than having Ray attack once and Rutger once. Dancers also contribute strongly towards Exp since they draw from a completely exclusive Exp pool; a solid +10 Exp on top of what you'd otherwise have, every turn. Few if any combat units can match that.

Also note that dancers are 100% free. No equipment, no promo item. They don't affect Funds Rank, at all. This actually matters since FE6 has buyable stat boosters. Using Lalum for free over someone like Ray who uses alot of weapon charges and a promo item allows me to buy more stat boosters and still S Rank in Funds. w1n.

[grandjackal]

Ray has a base hit (with Flux) of 91 in a map with thieves and myrmidons.

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch12x.html

Thieves have 44 avoid, so Ray has 47 displayed hit on them, myrmidons have 39-41 avoid which is 52-50 displayed hit on them. I'd HARDLY call that joining on a map with low evade enemies. The myrmidons also have 18 might, Ray has a base of 23 HP and 5 Defense. Ray's base speed is 9 AS, they appear to have 16-17 AS. That's an ORKO.

Lessee, brigands have 22 avoid, that's 69 displayed which is rather shaky when they almost OHKO him with their 27 might and their steel axes. Forget about hand axers it only takes 2 to off him. Rayhas a base might of 20 with Flux, and looking at their Res and HP, he 3RKOs them.

Do I even need to bring up the less common enemies? This is a terrible start, and I dare you to challenge it. As much as I like Ray, I have to acknowledge that he's something awful. Since this is a rank list, have fun destroying your combat rank.

Also, why may I ask does he get Lou ahead of Chad and Ellen, 3 units that can triangle support for some earlygame goodness? Using said supports just to help Ray suck less is not helping his case.

He's bad enough in an efficiency run, he actually destroys a bunch of your ranks in a rank run. Secondly, isn't Nosferatu a pretty expensive spell? Shall I count funds in there too?

[CATS]

Ray's definitely more viable on a ranked run. He can help bolster the Exp rank; just have him steal kills against low-Avo enemies, if nothing else. On an efficiency run he's just pointless and useless.

Not that I think he's good, but definitely better than on efficiency.

[grandjackal]

Ray's definitely more viable on a ranked run. He can help bolster the Exp rank; just have him steal kills against low-Avo enemies, if nothing else. On an efficiency run he's just pointless and useless.

Not that I think he's good, but definitely better than on efficiency.

Didn't think of the EXP rank...

...Whatever, it still doesn't make him freaking high tier!

...Much less above Shin and Fir!

Edited February 2, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Inui]

This is wrong. FE6 allows considerably more units on the field than FE7, so the argument that adding another combatant > adding a dancer is even more false. By the time you get down to the 14th or 15th best attacker you're almost into the mediocre Upper Mid units. Those units' enemy phases are very rarely worth utilizing over the superior enemy phases of upper-high and top tiers. Why would I bother to let someone counter when they aren't going to one-round, as opposed to letting all the enemies attack Alan/Lance/etc and get raped or at least have a higher chance to die? It just slows you down and it's rarely useful.

Which leads me to my next point. In this game Combat is harder than Tactics; having 5 move is thus almost totally irrelevant. There's nothing wrong with moving slowly, you don't have to rush at all. Meanwhile, by allowing the very best attackers to move again, dancers contribute strongly towards your Combat ranking. Letting Rutger attack twice is obviously better for Combat than having Ray attack once and Rutger once. Dancers also contribute strongly towards Exp since they draw from a completely exclusive Exp pool; a solid +10 Exp on top of what you'd otherwise have, every turn. Few if any combat units can match that.

Also note that dancers are 100% free. No equipment, no promo item. They don't affect Funds Rank, at all. This actually matters since FE6 has buyable stat boosters. Using Lalum for free over someone like Ray who uses alot of weapon charges and a promo item allows me to buy more stat boosters and still S Rank in Funds. w1n.

Very good arguments.

Ray has a base hit (with Flux) of 91 in a map with thieves and myrmidons.

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch12x.html

Thieves have 44 avoid, so Ray has 47 displayed hit on them, myrmidons have 39-41 avoid which is 52-50 displayed hit on them. I'd HARDLY call that joining on a map with low evade enemies. The myrmidons also have 18 might, Ray has a base of 23 HP and 5 Defense. Ray's base speed is 9 AS, they appear to have 16-17 AS. That's an ORKO.

I am aware that he fails against those units. Thankfully, he doesn't need to attack them, and if he does, at least he's not eating a counter. Shielding him from 5 Mov enemies isn't hard. Even Lugh can do it while building that support. Lugh x Ray is a 20/+3 support. This will hit a C...during the middle of the chapter in question or even before it, giving Ray +5 Hit and +5 Evd, which is w1n for him and pushes his Hit on everything about 50 to abuse the double-RN system.

Lessee, brigands have 22 avoid, that's 69 displayed which is rather shaky when they almost OHKO him with their 27 might and their steel axes. Forget about hand axers it only takes 2 to off him. Ray has a base might of 20 with Flux, and looking at their Res and HP, he 3RKOs them.

40% of all battles need to end in a win for you to get a perfect score in Combat. If Lugh doubles an enemy and then Ray kills it, that's a 50%, which is a 10% profit. Ray isn't fighting these enemies on his own. One-rounding monsters like Rutger, Dieck, Lance, and Alan more than make up for any shortcomings on the part of units like Ray. It is a point against him before promotion, but a minor one, like Funds.

Do I even need to bring up the less common enemies? This is a terrible start, and I dare you to challenge it. As much as I like Ray, I have to acknowledge that he's something awful. Since this is a rank list, have fun destroying your combat rank.

This start is nowhere near as bad with C Lugh being applied in the earlier portion of the chapter and Ray not being at his base level. Why isn't Ray gaining two levels hitting the crappy axe user reinforcements in the previous chapter and building his 14 turn C with Lugh? That +5 Hit pushes everything about 50 for him and is much more than +5 due to the double RN system.

Also, why may I ask does he get Lou ahead of Chad and Ellen, 3 units that can triangle support for some earlygame goodness? Using said supports just to help Ray suck less is not helping his case.

Even with the Chad support early on, Lugh shouldn't be getting attacked and Chad doesn't need it when he's ass-raping the axe users regardless. After the Western Isles (and even during it in many cases), he's at 20/0 and thus worthless in terms of Experience and he's often off doing other things. Later on, he's bottom tier in terms of offense and durability. Ray isn't. In the long-run, Lugh wants Ray more.

He's bad enough in an efficiency run, he actually destroys a bunch of your ranks in a rank run. Secondly, isn't Nosferatu a pretty expensive spell? Shall I count funds in there too?

You obtain a Silver Card in the same chapter you can purchase that tome. I don't think Funds is a big deal when spending some cash on Ray creates an invincible unit that does massive damage in one hit to whatever he hits.

Didn't think of the EXP rank...

...Whatever, it still doesn't make him freaking high tier!

...Much less above Shin and Fir!

He's invincible after promotion and supports Lugh quickly and easily for decent bonuses.

He's not above Shin and Fir. There are no orders within the tiers. I stated this. Please read.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Inui

[Dat Nick]

How does the EXP rank work in Ray's favor when he has such an absurd base level (12)

[Deliriyum]

How does the EXP rank work in Ray's favor when he has such an absurd base level (12)

By absurd I hope you mean that its high

[Inui]

He's at a lower level than the rest of your team and then gets staves when he promotes.

[Deliriyum]

He's at a lower level than the rest of your team and then gets staves when he promotes.

Staves is hardly notable when you already have Ellen, Clarine, Saul, Lugh, Lilina who can use staves. Particularly Lugh who will be one rounding much more often than Ray so that helps combat, and starts level 1(I think)

You said it yourself that Lugh is supporting Ellen for full offensive bonuses, so why does Lugh need Ray?

Edited February 2, 2010 by Core

[Salad Utensil]

Thany is missing from your list.

[Inui]

Staves is hardly notable when you already have Ellen, Clarine, Saul, Lugh, Lilina who can use staves. Particularly Lugh who will be one rounding much more often than Ray so that helps combat, and starts level 1(I think)

You said it yourself that Lugh is supporting Ellen for full offensive bonuses, so why does Lugh need Ray?

Who cares if others have it? It's about him having an additional EXP pool and being able to gain EXP without taking it from combat units. He can even gain EXP without enemies being around.

Lugh wants a B (or A) due to Chad being nonexistent starting in the mid game.

Thany is missing from your list.

Thanks. I'll add her now.

[Deliriyum]

In fact, if you wanted a character to suck at combat, why not use Lilina? She has arguably better supports, earlier joining, lower joining level.

Also, your saying that I would use a promo item on Ray to get him staves, while other characters actually need it, while maintaining a low budget?(chapter 16) I'm not so sure that's plausible

Edited February 2, 2010 by Core

[Inui]

In fact, if you wanted a character to suck at combat, why not use Lilina? She has arguably better supports, earlier joining, lower joining level.

Also, your saying that I would use a promo item on Ray to get him staves, while other characters actually need it, while maintaining a low budget?(chapter 16) I'm not so sure that's plausible

Nobody wants to support Lilina. Nobody you're actually using, at any rate. Roy already has B Alan/B Lance and can get a C at any time with plenty others. But hey, she can be his C. And then have pretty much nothing else unless Gonzales wants her. Or Garret. Either way, she's terrible due to her AS and HP/Def.

You can promote characters without slaughtering your budget. Silver Card. You can promote him after Chapter 16 without hurting anyone else. It's not like you're fielding every caster every time.

[Deliriyum]

Ray has a 5% speed growth over her. Big whoop? He'll be doubling so much more for sure /sarcasm. Ray's hp and defense leads aren't a big deal, because they will both be able to survive a hit, and both will probably die with two.

[Salad Utensil]

Thanks. I'll add her now.

Sorry to intrude again, but I just realized you are also missing Astohl as well

[Deliriyum]

Sorry to intrude again, but I just realized you are also missing Astohl as well

Astohl supports Lilina relatively quickly, but if you already have supports on Chad, you won't be using him much.

[Salad Utensil]

Astohl supports Lilina relatively quickly, but if you already have supports on Chad, you won't be using him much.

I disagree. Some chapters have chests literally on opposite sides of the maps. Those chapters also tend not to have arenas. It is better to use 2 thieves to finish such chapters many turns earlier to get all the treasure and save turns later on in order to gain more exp for arena use to boost exp rank without hurting combat and at the same time helping funds. I say Astohl can be a perfectly viable support option not to mention Astohl comes with better stats in HP and Def unless Chad is overleveled so he probably has more/similar incentive to be used compared to Chad sans good support options when only 1 thief is necessary.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Brighton

[Candlejack]

Gonzales above Fir please.

Will provide reasoning if challenged.

[Deliriyum]

I disagree. Some chapters have chests literally on opposite sides of the maps. Those chapters also tend not to have arenas. It is better to use 2 thieves to finish such chapters many turns earlier to get all the treasure and save turns later on in order to gain more exp for arena use to boost exp rank without hurting combat and at the same time helping funds. I say Astohl can be a perfectly viable support option not to mention Astohl comes with better stats in HP and Def unless Chad is overleveled so he probably has more/similar incentive to be used compared to Chad sans good support options when only 1 thief is necessary.

I actually am in favor of using Astol, but I wasn't sure if that was what other people felt so I covered by back.

Gonzales above Fir please.

Will provide reasoning if challenged.

They are unordered within their rank

Edited February 2, 2010 by Core

[Candlejack]

I know about the unordered thing.

Just saying when the time comes. Hell I'd have put him at the top of High myself.

Probably the best axe user in the game.

EDIT: Little preview-

He's amazing for your combat rank which might be the hardest one to get in FE6.

Contributes to the EXP rank enough to warrant further attention in that.

Ridiculous bases. Is nearly four points away from capping STR at level FIVE. Come on.

After promotion he becomes the biggest h4x in the game. Critical bonus plus a near monopoly on axes.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Merlinus the Jew