FE6 HM Tier List

[Colonel M]

Dieck IS still above Rutger. That hasn't changed yet.

[-Cynthia-]

Lots of characters have access to Javelins/Hand Axes, but they both have a good chance of weighing the user down and terrible accuracy. I usually find it's better to just equip something more accurate and actually kill on the player phase, rather than chancing fate more than necessary.

Magic users have decent 1-2 range, but they also generally don't have the durability to surivive much enemy phase action. Bascially, I'm not a fan of 1-2 range in FE6 because it's not a very good option.

I imagine Dieck is mostly above Rutger because Dieck has some chapters before Rutger joins where he's very useful, not becuase he can miss with Hand Axes all the time.

Edited May 13, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Colonel M]

He doesn't even miss that often with Hand Axes. <_<

I'm not trying to overplay 2 range capabilities, but it's still an advantage. It's not like every single opportunity I wielded it, but in instances there were times that having 1-2 range was good (i.e. when there's a Mage or Javelin users within a group of enemies). Think Chapter 13 on the bottom bridge for a good example as to why you want 1-2 range. Being able to counterattack the Mages and the Archer | Sniper is pretty good despite having the chance to miss.

There's also instances like walls or awkward unit placement where you don't always have the option to 1 range in general. Chapter 12 is a good example of this. Think of 2 range increasing flexibility with the team in general. It makes one range units with powerful offense easier to handle too.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Colonel M

[-Cynthia-]

Eh, if there's a mage or Javelin user within a mix of enemies and Dieck is with a group,that means Dieck and everyone else has to equip 1-2 range or the enemy will just take any unit who can't counter.

Also if say, the Mage has a Myrmidon friend, the Myrm can now attack Dieck freely and not get hit, whereas if dieck would be holding a Killing Edge or w/e that wouldn't be the case.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Using a higher accuracy 1 range weapon on the player phase and then switching to a 1-2 ranged weapon through the use of the trade command is also doable.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Speedwagon

[Colonel M]

Using a higher accuracy 1 range weapon on the player phase and then switching to a 1-2 ranged weapon through the use of the trade command is also doable.

This is what I usually do. I'll pull out a Javelin or Hand Axe if I can either double with it (which happens often after promotion) or if the unit has scary 1 range offense (even Warriors, despite their iffy accuracy, hurt like hell).

Eh, if there's a mage or Javelin user within a mix of enemies and Dieck is with a group,that means Dieck and everyone else has to equip 1-2 range or the enemy will just take any unit who can't counter.

Hence this is a slight disadvantage for Fir. Most of your units have 1-2 range option anyway, so this shouldn't be a major issue.

Also if say, the Mage has a Myrmidon friend, the Myrm can now attack Dieck freely and not get hit, whereas if dieck would be holding a Killing Edge or w/e that wouldn't be the case.

Not entirely true. While it isn't likely, it is still possible to hit that Myrmidion as well. But now the question to be asked: do you want to hit the Mage and attempt to hit the Myrmidion or do you want to hit the Myrmidion and leave the Mage unscathed?

Edited May 13, 2010 by Colonel M

[dondon151]

Do you have to be using Dieck in that example? If you used Allen or Lance, you'd get a KO'd mage and a myrm in KO range on player phase instead of a KO'd myrm and an unhurt mage. Even with Dieck, you'd still have about a 40% chance or so do put the myrm in KO range whereas with a 1 range locked unit, you have a 0% chance to do the same against the mage.

Edited May 13, 2010 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

Do you have to be using Dieck in that example? If you used Allen or Lance, you'd get a KO'd mage and a myrm in KO range on player phase instead of a KO'd myrm and an unhurt mage. Even with Dieck, you'd still have about a 40% chance or so do put the myrm in KO range whereas with a 1 range locked unit, you have a 0% chance to do the same against the mage.

I was just using the presented example that Cynthia gave me. I'd obviously go for the Javelin first before the Hand Axe.

[Narga_Rocks]

Do you have to be using Dieck in that example? If you used Allen or Lance, you'd get a KO'd mage and a myrm in KO range on player phase instead of a KO'd myrm and an unhurt mage. Even with Dieck, you'd still have about a 40% chance or so do put the myrm in KO range whereas with a 1 range locked unit, you have a 0% chance to do the same against the mage.

Before promotion you'd also likely end up with a doubled Alan. Mage + two hits from merc = bad.

You want a blend of both, really, but I don't think that blend means 1 unit that is sword-locked (Rutger) and all your others must have 1-2 range. Dieck can promote by the end of chapter 11. Maybe not at level 20 like mine did, but high enough it won't matter. He has hand axes for over half the game if you want.

Also, why is Fir only getting one hit in sacae? Promotion already makes 22 spd. You could promote after chapter 16 at whatever level she is. You should be able to manage level ~13 quite easily. And she should hit 23 or more before you actually encounter anything with 19 speed. Granted Wo Dao needed unless she has 5 more spd, but she's likely going to hit 24 before the majority of the enemies hit 19 anyway. Also, myrms have 8 con and use steel so they only have 18 attack speed even with capped spd. 1 point of spd beyond promotion is enough for Fir to double them with killing edges.

[Colonel M]

Not exactly one hit. Think more or less "one phase", or "one action" in general that has the drawback of taking a hit. Granted that of course doubling Nomadic Troopers, if she can get there, is pretty nifty when they're drawn in.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Colonel M

[Narga_Rocks]

Not exactly one hit. Think more or less "one phase", or "one action" in general that has the drawback of taking a hit. Granted that of course doubling Nomadic Troopers, if she can get there, is pretty nifty when they're drawn in.

And after a bit of leveling that one action is dang near guaranteed to KO even a Nomad Trooper. There are enemies that are special targets that need killing faster than other enemies and you don't want to rely on some unit that may miss. Or are more likely to miss. Fir won't. Two hits. One out of two crits and it is dead.

Also, one fun strategy involves shin on enemy phase against Nomads. Trouble is, he can't ever counter Nomad Troopers (Light Brand doesn't count). Fir can stay out of enemy range and then waltz in on player phase and blick that Trooper. shin moves on and positions for more nomads. At times you can even accomplish this with Fir within 3 spaces of shin, though I'm starting to think that only a C will be developed until late sacae at best. Hopefully a C for chapter 15 or 16, and B for 20 or something. Not sure it's possible, but it might be. Trouble with building in sacae, of course, being most of the time you don't want them adjacent.

[CATS]

You make it sound like every single fucking enemy in the game is a mage or has bows or carries javelins or something. Which isn't the case. 1-2 range is cool yes, but it is not the end of the goddamned world if you don't have it.

Not every single enemy, but about one in two, if not more. Examples:

Ch 5: Exactly half the fighters have hand axes. There's 6 mercs, but then there's 4 hand axe brigands, 3 nomads and a mage.

Ch 6: 7 out of 12 soldiers have javelins, 2 out of 5 knights have them. 2 mercs in the chapter, but 6 mages.

Ch 7: 4 of 6 knights have javelins, all 5 cavaliers have javelins, both soldiers have javelins, 1 of 3 dragon riders has a javelin. 2 mercs, versus 2 mages + 4 archers.

Ch 8: Only 2 of 10 soldiers and 1 of 6 knights have javelins, but there's also 6 mages and 6 archers.

etc

Enough that ranged enemies are omnipresent. In almost any given group of enemies, there's generally gonna be at least one with range, usually more; so access to 1-2 is constantly relevant.

[Narga_Rocks]

Not every single enemy, but about one in two, if not more. Examples:

Ch 5: Exactly half the fighters have hand axes. There's 6 mercs, but then there's 4 hand axe brigands, 3 nomads and a mage.

Ch 6: 7 out of 12 soldiers have javelins, 2 out of 5 knights have them. 2 mercs in the chapter, but 6 mages.

Ch 7: 4 of 6 knights have javelins, all 5 cavaliers have javelins, both soldiers have javelins, 1 of 3 dragon riders has a javelin. 2 mercs, versus 2 mages + 4 archers.

Ch 8: Only 2 of 10 soldiers and 1 of 6 knights have javelins, but there's also 6 mages and 6 archers.

etc

Enough that ranged enemies are omnipresent. In almost any given group of enemies, there's generally gonna be at least one with range, usually more; so access to 1-2 is constantly relevant.

At times I agree its a good thing, but on the other hand, you have some units capable of reliably killing things at 1 range at various times. That's generally not happening with 7 mt hand axes and 6 mt javelins unless your name happens to be Dieck and you are somehow around 20/3 in 12x. There are places where it's better to counter 3 1-range enemies on enemy phase and kill them and then leave 1 or 2 enemies with 2 range alive for player phase. Need to kill two enemies vs. need to kill 5 enemies. More units can run further ahead in the chapter that way.

[Dat Nick]

Not to mention all of this is earlygame chapters before any good 1-2 rangers come up.

[dondon151]

And when the good 1-2 range units do appear, who else is joining with them? (hint: it begins with 'F' and end in 'ir')

[Dat Nick]

....Sorry, what good 1-2 range characters exist by the time Fir joins, again? I'm counting Lot, Zealot/Marcus (but why on earth you wouldn't just have them kill pirate idiots with swords is beyond me) and Lugh, who's still getting 2RKOd and not doubling, and...that's it.

[Narga_Rocks]

....Sorry, what good 1-2 range characters exist by the time Fir joins, again? I'm counting Lot, Zealot/Marcus (but why on earth you wouldn't just have them kill pirate idiots with swords is beyond me) and Lugh, who's still getting 2RKOd and not doubling, and...that's it.

I wouldn't say that you have truly "good" 1-2 range until Dieck promotes at level 20 and can ORKO more than half of each map with hand axes with over 70 hit rates. I think 80 on some things, particularly lances. Gonzo is giving you like 50 hit rates with hand axes meaning, on average, he'll kill a quarter of what comes at him, knock half of them down to 50% hp, and leave a quarter of them perfectly healthy.

Oh, hey, that's about the percentage of what Fir can do to enemies with killing edges beyond chapter 13, right? 1-2 range enemies are perfectly healthy, whatever she crits dies, and the rest are down around 50% hp. Maybe left with 40% after facing Gonzo/Fir. Oh, wait, no, because Fir kills around 50% of what she can counter. In places with 1 unit that is ranged out of 4, she'll be killing 37.5% on average, wounding 37.5%, and leaving 25% healthy. Granted there may be times in which ranged enemies are more prevalent, but over time she'll probably be killing more, even if she may also leave more in top health. Then she goes and promotes and nearly everything she can counter dies.

The cool thing (in many maps) about using 1 range with units that can KO is that you can kill more things on enemy phase which allows you to leave fewer units behind cleaning up on player phase. You can even have Fir/Rutger KO those 1-2 range enemies on player phase and then pick them up and rush forward more and drop them, leaving no units behind.

[CATS]

Not to mention all of this is earlygame chapters before any good 1-2 rangers come up.

Ranged enemies aren't only prevalent in the earlygame. They're prevalent throughout the entire game. Ch 15, 14/31 enemies are ranged. Ch 16, 18/29 enemies are ranged. Ch 16x, 18/30 enemies. etc

[dondon151]

I wouldn't say that you have truly "good" 1-2 range until Dieck promotes at level 20 and can ORKO more than half of each map with hand axes with over 70 hit rates. I think 80 on some things, particularly lances. Gonzo is giving you like 50 hit rates with hand axes meaning, on average, he'll kill a quarter of what comes at him, knock half of them down to 50% hp, and leave a quarter of them perfectly healthy.

Good 1-2 range exists starting from the moment you load up chapter 1. His name is Marcus. Then in chapter 7, you get someone else; his name is Zealot. Once you're hitting chapters 12+, Dieck, Lance, and Allen are nearing 20/0 and promote. You get Miledy in chapter 13 (who needs a couple of levels for spd procs) and Percival in chapter 15. Given that most chapters are pretty linear (head Roy to the throne), you really only need 1 guy most of the time to counter on enemy phase; having other units that are equally threatening on enemy phase gives them the option of not having to hang back in case they get in the way.

Oh, hey, that's about the percentage of what Fir can do to enemies with killing edges beyond chapter 13, right?

Beyond chapter 13, you're really going to have trouble justifying using Fir on enemy phase. You have just promoted or are near promoting Dieck, Allen, and Lance, you just got Miledy, and you're getting Percival after 2 chapters. All of these units are ORKO or near ORKO on the typical enemies that you would use 2-range for; namely, archers, mages, Hand Axe fighters, and Javelin cavaliers. Nomads and PKs too, I guess. The only unpromoted enemy types that they're not doing well against are mercs and WKs, but Lance and Percival in particular are likely to double mercs and you wouldn't use Fir to combat WKs anyway because of death chances.

Anything that's not super durable like promoted enemies, WKs, armors, or mercs in some cases will die against you whether you use 1-2 range weapons or not. So in most cases you're pretty much killing everything. If about half of the enemies that you face have a ranged option, what purpose would it serve to overkill half of them and not touch the other half, when I can instead achieve the KO on all of them? And even if I leave them all with like 4 HP, an enemy at 4 HP is much safer to kill than an enemy at 38 HP, because killing that enemy at 38 HP generally means taking a counter, and depending on the enemy type the counter might hurt a lot.

[Dat Nick]

If about half of the enemies that you face have a ranged option, what purpose would it serve to overkill half of them and not touch the other half

Marcus has 88 hit with a hand axe. You're already risking not touching the other half the moment you equip him with that weapon.

[Mekkah]

Or you can equip a Steel Sword, then you have 0% hit on all that has range, and he's not going to ORKO the guys he's attacking up close either. He only needs one Hand Axe throw to hit that Pirate to allow someone else to finish it off. Hand Axe is probably overall better.

[Colonel M]

Chapter 7 without 2 range seems rather difficult too, or at least you're putting more of a strain on yourself by not using it. I can see people complaining about 50ish Hit rates, but 88%? Come on, you miss ~1/10 times perhaps and you can counterattack Mages, which not only are accurate enough as is, but they hurt like hell.

Edited May 14, 2010 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

Not 88%, Marcus has 88 hit with a handaxe.

And I'm tired of the strawman that I'm saying never to use 1-2 range at all. I'm saying people treat it like it's everything.

[Colonel M]

Okay, now that we specified. You get WTA on the Soldiers and the Javelin Cavaliers in Chapter 7 for example, so it's much like 98 Hit under those scenarios. Alternatively, the main point we're drawing at is not to strawman you, but it's merely implicating that 1-2 range is still a flexible advantage whether it can miss once every three throws or whatnot. Not having such an option still puts you at a disadvantage.

[Dat Nick]

You get WTA on the Soldiers and the Javelin Cavaliers in Chapter 7 for example, so it's much like 98 Hit under those scenarios.

And the pirates on the isles, which can't be gotten WTA on, which was the actual issue I was addressing...