FE6 HM Tier List

[-Cynthia-]

I never knew ORKOing in the Western Isles was considered crappy combat! Now tell me when the fuck the other shit ass units like Treck are doing it.

It was pretty clear based on context that this was referring to Zealot's C13 and beyond, not his performance in the Isles. I never said his combat in the Isles was bad, just not so far ahead of the rest of the cast to justify such a high position.

Also, since when is Zealot ORKOing much of anything? He doesn't get even the lowest leveled pirates (19 Atk with Steel Sword against 30 HP 5 Def), which leaves him only the lowest leveled archer and the mages. Please take a look at actual enemy stats before making such claims.

[Colonel M]

Iron Blade. All I need to say wrt ORKOing those.

[-Cynthia-]

Edit: Oops I did not know Iron Blades were buyable in the C7 armory. Learn something new every day I guess.

In other news Dorothy>Karel makes sense. She's probably more useful than C6 than he is in C23.

Edited July 5, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

Grandjackal never gives unpromoted axe users Killer Axes. It goes against his philosophy.

Now now, we know my philosophy has changed quite a bit since way back when (Though I'm still undisputed king of low tier). If you're going to pick on me at any random time you wish while making it seem on topic, at least be accurate. Choose something that is more consistent with me: I forgot he had C rank, thinking he had D. Sometimes I pity old people and how behind the times they can be...

Also, I second the motion of Dorothy>Karel.

[Dark Sage]

Echidna's combat doesn't impress me at all. She can't ORKO anything without proccing a crit, which is in the same boat as Marcus, Zealot, and everyone else.

True, it's not that impressive on it's own, but it's honestly more impressive than Cecilia's staff utility and chipping. Ordinarily, I wouldn't say this, but Cecilia only has a C in staves.

[-Cynthia-]

Zealot isn't on the Sacae list.

Also, Sue is now below Treck on the Sacae list, but above him on the Ilia list, which is odd. This can probably be remedied by pushing Sacae!Sue nearer to the top of Lower Mid.

[Colonel M]

I made minor changes. Nothing on Lugh yet (not sure since Roy at least does a few things earlygame... "few") and I didn't see a logical conclusion to Echinda vs. anyone.

[-Cynthia-]

Ilia!Zeiss could probably be higher. Getting him 3 levels really isn't that difficult honestly, he can ORKO some things with an Iron Lance with decent accuracy, giving him a Speedwing is also a good investment. He could also use the Horseslayer to OHKO Cavs as well. I think promoting Zeiss by the beginning of 18A is pretty reasonable.

Once promoted, he compares pretty well to the people in Mid tier. Take Garret for example, who doesn't really do much before Zeiss joins.

10/1 Zeiss

45 HP 22 Str 16 Skl 14 AS 17 Def 4 Res

--/2 Garret

55 HP 21 Str 16 Skl 12 AS 10 Def 5 Res

Zeiss is a bit better offensively, 2 AS and some Hit due to using Lances (and possibly Iron Swords) over Axes. Zeiss is better durability wise, except for magic. Garret does have the crit boost, but Zeiss has +2 Mov and flight, which is a pretty huge advantage in the Ilia chapters and beyond.

17A: Crossing the water to get over to the boss more quickly.

18A: Tons of forest tiles everywhere, also some water

19A: Mountains

21: More mountains

21x: Waterways to cross

23: Lots of ocean

You could say that the Ballistae in Ilia stop Zeiss from moving ahead, but he can equip the Delphi Shield. This doesn't hurt Miledy as long as both are in range of the Ballistae, since the AI will prioritize Zeiss due to lower HP/Defense combination (AI doesn't recognize the Shield existing).

Not sure if Zeiss should necessarily be above Garret, but Zeiss should be in the same tier at least IMO.

[grandjackal]

It's nice to point that he has 2 more AS, but unless he's actually doubling things with it, it's just a number. Lemme help you out there.

With 14 AS, this is the bare minimum to double Steel Pegasi, or anything in general wielding a Steel Lance. Also, at 10/1 with a Wing, that's 16 Speed he has, not 14. 16 AS gives him the javelin pegasi as well. And since he has the con now to wield Javelins without losing speed....

Unless I'm missing someone else that would REALLY like a wing...or if we still have wings to give around this point...Some things are still free to scrutiny. However, I would agree that a tier jump for Zeiss seems reasonable. Just not quite assured it's justified is all, if only for those first 3 levels he needs to be fed.

[dondon151]

More discoveries.

Zeiss is good in Ilia route. Granted, I've only played through chapter 19 and he's only been really useful in 2 maps, but he really made a difference where it mattered. I managed to 4 turn chapter 18 and 6 turn chapter 19 with his help. He has 2 unique traits:

Zeiss can rescue Percival; Miledy can't. I didn't have any other methods of transporting Percival for the bosskills in those maps.

Zeiss has high physical durability, which deters attackers when he is out in front of most other units. If there are other weaker units behind Zeiss, he won't be likely to get surrounded on enemy phase.

You could say that the Ballistae in Ilia stop Zeiss from moving ahead, but he can equip the Delphi Shield. This doesn't hurt Miledy as long as both are in range of the Ballistae, since the AI will prioritize Zeiss due to lower HP/Defense combination (AI doesn't recognize the Shield existing).

This is a great exploit, and it's exactly what I did in chapter 19 to put Zeiss and Miledy safely in the range of both Long Ballistae.

Also, I think it's possible to assume that Niime can wield Apocalypse when it shows up, at least on Ilia route, because she joins 1 chapter earlier relative to Sacae route. I got her 40 WEXP in 6 turns, and all she needed was an Angelic Robe to survive an attack from Silver Lance falcoknights and paladins. Not sure about Sacae route, because chapter 20S isn't very safe for her and it takes a lot of effort to get her all of the 50 WEXP she needs in chapter 21 alone.

Edited July 18, 2011 by dondon151

[Toothache]

Regarding Niime and Apocalypse, how many chapters from her recruitment on both routes does the extra Warp distance actually matter? Is having S Dark by the start of Ch21 - or even 21x, which is probably more likely on Sacae route - absolutely required?

[dondon151]

You don't get Apocalypse until after chapter 21x.

I know for a fact that I need it in chapter 22 to use Rescue on Roy from the right side of the map to the left side of the map - Niime can only do this with at least 18 staff range. Its effect on Warp range is rather negligible; more beneficial is its +30 to staff accuracy that allows you to disable enemies more reliably with status staves.

[Toothache]

Yeah I know you get Apocalypse after 21x. I was just inquiring as to how much Dark wexp Niime should be picking up efficiently in each chapter, and whether she needs so many kills from her recruitment until getting the tome.

And good point about the staff accuracy.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Toothache

[dondon151]

Well, I assume 6 turns is a pretty efficient clear of chapter 19 Ilia - I think 5 turns is possible with a bulkier Roy (which I obviously don't have), but you'd have to pass up the Energy Ring. I had 32 WEXP on Niime after turn 5 player phase, and I think in her remaining maps before chapter 22, it's not hard getting another 18 WEXP. You can Eclipse a few walls and snag a few kills.

[Balcerzak]

Well, I assume 6 turns is a pretty efficient clear of chapter 19 Ilia - I think 5 turns is possible with a bulkier Roy (which I obviously don't have), but you'd have to pass up the Energy Ring. I had 32 WEXP on Niime after turn 5 player phase, and I think in her remaining maps before chapter 22, it's not hard getting another 18 WEXP. You can Eclipse a few walls and snag a few kills.

Yeah, the five turn is possible, and you may even be able to get the ring with boots'ed flier (I think I was a square off, and don't remember how essential prior turn placement was), but the odds are not good. And Roy does certainly need some meat on his bones for that one.

[Camus The Dark Knight]

-Takes Strategy To Use and Is The Player's Fault That They Suck Tier-

Sophia

Doesn't have to do with the list (Since I agree she sucks), but I used Sophia for fun on hard mode one time and it was not as god aweful as people act.

Also, I personally think Barth should be higher (Especially for hard mode), he's sucky, but he is a reliable sucky, you know where he will be good at and where he won't be, you don't really have to rely on the RNG so much on level ups. Then again I am weird with stuff like that.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Camus The Dark Knight

[Anouleth]

Doesn't have to do with the list (Since I agree she sucks), but I used Sophia for fun on hard mode one time and it was not as god aweful as people act.

Also, I personally think Barth should be higher (Especially for hard mode), he's sucky, but he is a reliable sucky, you know where he will be good at and where he won't be, you don't really have to rely on the RNG so much on level ups. Then again I am weird with stuff like that.

I can't really see him above Hugh. Hugh provides healing and has decent offense: for example, he ORKOes Steel Lance Cavaliers, Knights, and Pegasus Knights in Ilia. He's close to OHKOing the Falcoknights and Wyvern Riders (later on Wyvern Lords). And his mobility is much superior. Barth cannot be picked up except by unpromoted Shin. Hugh can be picked up by just about every mounted unit, and he can cross three Forests per turn under his own steam while Barth can only cross one.

Perhaps Barth has a case to be made in Sacae where he can't really die, but there is always the issue of his horrible accuracy. Sacaen Nomads range from 42 to 50 avoid, putting Barth at between 29 and 37 display hit with a Javelin. So I don't think he really deserves to be above Hugh there either.

[frat_tastic]

I've also used both Wendy and Sophia in HM, and it isn't too terrible using them. I mean, they are still god awful, but I didn't feel the need to shoot myself or anything. For what its worth, I found Wendy to be way easier to use anyway, but I know people here hate arguing about shitty characters (or at least that's why we stopped with Wendy/Sophia forever ago when that was a hot topic).

[Lord Raven]

... so you're arguing for them to... stay? They're a tier below Karel; Karel can at least wield Durandal and participate in the final chapter or something (and kill some things in his current chapter) whereas Sophia can do stuff... but its a pain in the ass. And Wendy is way worse than Sophia.

They may not suck *as much* (applies to Sophia at least, Wendy is way unusable without any like... triangle attack support LOL so she stays) but they still suck waaaaaaaay worse than Karel.

Is Dorothy only > Karel because of chip damage in C6?

[Radiant Dragon]

I wouldn't call Wendy 'way worse' than Sophia. She has some availability (despite the fact that the Western Isles is a very bad place for her), is not ORKO'd by every enemy, and has the option of the Triangle Attack.

[frat_tastic]

I would disagree that Sophia is better than Wendy, but I'd assume that Dorothy>Karel because of chip damage yeah. I guess she can chip other stuff early game also, maybe some Wyverns in CH7. I guess its worth more than Karel existing for all of a chapter and a half.

[Lord Raven]

I wouldn't call Wendy 'way worse' than Sophia. She has some availability (despite the fact that the Western Isles is a very bad place for her), is not ORKO'd by every enemy, and has the option of the Triangle Attack.

...I would, Wendy has base 64 hit and 10 Atk if she wants to hit with a Javelin. Sophia on the other hand has 75 hit and 14 Atk. (These are base levels, mind you).

Sophia has 50 something displayed hit against Wyvern Riders and 40 something against other enemies in the chapter (the Mages probably way less) -- Wendy's hit is closer to the early 40s/50s as well. The difference? Wendy does less damage to enemies in her chapter than enemies in Sophia's chapter, and that's assuming that you can get past her movement deficiency to go near enemies and hit them. Sophia's got movement and gets you a Guiding Ring, too (if you go by dondon's 0% growth strategy you can easily get this Guiding Ring without exposing her to combat).

The point is they're both really heavily reamed by the enemies in their chapter, except Sophia has the luxury of having better stats at 2-range making chip damage more viable. Especially because she's forced in the middle of the chapter you get her in and you have to move her around (or rescue her if you're feeling lucky), whereas you can easily keep Wendy behind due to the lack of reinforcements at that area of the chapter.

I just like to know that I am not advocating using either. In fact, I think the player is a fucking retarded if they so much as touch Wendy/Sophia outside of -- not even Filler units -- outside of doing some maneuvering out of harm's way and MAYBE random trade ferrying (.... what?) but that's more or less it. (In my ranked run, I managed to get Sophia a good number of level ups simply because I wanted some EXP for my EXP rank -- same run actually let me make use of Lilina and she ended up using Forblaze in the final chapter, but ranked runs are stupid as fuck in this game).

Edited July 20, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

...I would, Wendy has base 64 hit and 10 Atk if she wants to hit with a Javelin. Sophia on the other hand has 75 hit and 14 Atk. (These are base levels, mind you).

Wendy can also take an Iron Lance for 79 hit and 11 Atk, or the Gant Lance for 74 hit and 13 Atk, so the gap isn't as large as you make it out to be (albeit these options are only 1 range).

Sophia's got movement and gets you a Guiding Ring, too (if you go by dondon's 0% growth strategy you can easily get this Guiding Ring without exposing her to combat).

That +1 move and Guiding Ring are the only things keeping her above Wendy.

Especially because she's forced in the middle of the chapter you get her in and you have to move her around (or rescue her if you're feeling lucky), whereas you can easily keep Wendy behind due to the lack of reinforcements at that area of the chapter.

Wrong. There are reinforcements that appear in the room Wendy starts in in Chapter 8. Also, the fact that you have to move Sophia because she's OHKO'd and doubled at almost perfect hit by Wyverns who outrange her in a Fog of War Desert map is NOT a point in favor of Sophia.

Again, Sophia is better because of the Guiding Ring, as well as being in a better class, but she's not that much better than Wendy.

[Janissary]

Trying to keep Sophiya alive can potentially be as frustrating as trying to get a dog to purr.

[Joerachi]

You are making it sound harder to defend Sophia than it really is. I had no trouble keeping her away from Wyverns in my draft, and I assume it should be even easier to do so in a not draft. So long as you have 1 thief deployed, it should be a problem to keep her kicking.

Also, who else is going to eat some Sleep Shots?

Edited July 20, 2011 by Joekitty