FE6 HM Tier List

[Anouleth]

I never really found there to be much trouble in keeping Sophia alive. And she makes an excellent distraction for the Sleep Bishop.

[Lord Raven]

Wendy can also take an Iron Lance for 79 hit and 11 Atk, or the Gant Lance for 74 hit and 13 Atk, so the gap isn't as large as you make it out to be (albeit these options are only 1 range).

You actually get her to attack at 1 range? The fact that you're bringing this point up makes it feel as if my point went way over your head.

The only enemies that don't ORKO her are the Knights, and that's because they have less than 7 AS needed to kill her. That's at 1 range with Iron Lance. She tinks the Knights that don't kill her, for the record -- they have 12-13 Def in that chapter and it only goes downhill. The only other units that don't ORKO her are... Iron Bow Archers, some of the reinforcements, and some Soldiers considering they don't have 7 AS. The nearby enemies completely maul her, and using her is way less efficient than using Sophia because her movement is far more retarded in a large map (and large in this game means a shitload, considering the first map is twice as big as most maps in FE7 and 8).

That +1 move and Guiding Ring are the only things keeping her above Wendy.

And the problem with this is...?

Wrong. There are reinforcements that appear in the room Wendy starts in in Chapter 8. Also, the fact that you have to move Sophia because she's OHKO'd and doubled at almost perfect hit by Wyverns who outrange her in a Fog of War Desert map is NOT a point in favor of Sophia.

Better than Wendy who is 2RKO'd in her chapter and attacks at range worse than Sophia does. She does a hell of a lot better against those Wyverns at 2 range than Wendy does at 1 and 2 range to any enemy in C8 -- not saying it's recommended, the fact that you're actually using that point against me when I mentioned it myself is blatantly ignoring me -- but I'm just saying it's there and that both units are retarded to use.

I'm also looking at the enemies list and I see no reinforcements back there... we're better off not arguing that, since obviously you'd want to move Wendy in that case. She still doesn't get you anything.

Again, Sophia is better because of the Guiding Ring, as well as being in a better class, but she's not that much better than Wendy.

Absorbing a Sleep, doing a little bit better against enemies (RELATIVELY good 2 range compared to Wendy, but still fucking terrible, as I emphasize), and getting you a guiding ring is better than... sitting there and dying most turns and not really doing anything otherwise.

[dondon151]

(if you go by dondon's 0% growth strategy you can easily get this Guiding Ring without exposing her to combat).

There's a better (not yet revealed) strategy that does the map 4 turns faster with everything obtained but the Silver Blade, which I had like a 32% chance of getting anyway.

Also, the fact that you have to move Sophia because she's OHKO'd and doubled at almost perfect hit by Wyverns who outrange her in a Fog of War Desert map is NOT a point in favor of Sophia.

A problem like this is easily avoided by looking at a map and making a plan.

Anyway why did people bring up this dumb Wendy vs. Sophia crap again. Who really cares about which one's better?

Edited July 20, 2011 by dondon151

[Lord Raven]

Radiant Kitty.

[Radiant Dragon]

The only enemies that don't ORKO her are the Knights, and that's because they have less than 7 AS needed to kill her.... The only other units that don't ORKO her are... Iron Bow Archers, some of the reinforcements, and some Soldiers considering they don't have 7 AS...

For heaven's sake man, don't contradict yourself in the same paragraph. Also, I'm sure that Myrmidons and most Mercenaries don't quite reach the Attack necessary to ORKO her as well, at least for a few chapters.

And the problem with this is...?

Nothing. But can you seriously argue Sophia is waaay better than Wendy just because she's a slightly better class and gets us a promotion item?

Better than Wendy who is 2RKO'd in her chapter

Wait, what? Now she's not ORKO'd anymore?

She does a hell of a lot better against those Wyverns at 2 range than Wendy does at 1 and 2 range to any enemy in C8 -- not saying it's recommended, the fact that you're actually using that point against me when I mentioned it myself is blatantly ignoring me -- but I'm just saying it's there and that both units are retarded to use.

Honestly, they're combat stats relative to each other are irrelevant. They're both bad enough that neither will ever see combat in any kind of efficient playthrough.

Absorbing a Sleep, doing a little bit better against enemies (RELATIVELY good 2 range compared to Wendy, but still fucking terrible, as I emphasize), and getting you a guiding ring is better than... sitting there and dying most turns and not really doing anything otherwise.

My original point, which you seem to be ignoring: Does this make Sophia waaay better than Wendy? No. +1 move and a Guiding Ring vs. not being ORKO'd by every single enemy is not exactly a blowout.

A problem like this is easily avoided by looking at a map and making a plan.

I'm fully aware of that (having also managed to get Sophia to the Guiding Ring untouched in a draft playthrough). But Raven was trying to bring it up as a point in favor of Sophia somehow.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Anouleth]

I would say that having some use is waaaay better than having no use whatsoever.

[Lord Raven]

For heaven's sake man, don't contradict yourself in the same paragraph. Also, I'm sure that Myrmidons and most Mercenaries don't quite reach the Attack necessary to ORKO her as well, at least for a few chapters.

That's beside the point. She can easily get ganged up and boatmurdered if she wanted to, and an Iron Lance obviously doesn't help her because it either gets her ORKO'd right then and there or 2RKO'd on the next turn.

Nothing. But can you seriously argue Sophia is waaay better than Wendy just because she's a slightly better class and gets us a promotion item?

Getting you a promotion item is a million times better than... whatever Wendy can do for you.

Wait, what? Now she's not ORKO'd anymore?

I took a better look at the enemies and its the knights/iron bow archers/reinforcements later in the chapter (LOL) that don't ORKO her. Steel Sword Merc reinforcement kills her, Mages lampoon the fuck out of her, Steel Bow Archers double her if she has a Javelin or 2RKO her, and Soldiers 2RKO her with startling accuracy. Soldiers. Soldiers are a joke class for the love of god.

Sophia is easily OHKO'd, but her offense in a later chapter from 2-range is easily just as good as Wendy's in an earlier chapter from 2-range.

OHKO vs 2RKO does not matter considering there is a greater enemy density in FE6 compared to the other GBA games, and Wendy is easily ganged up on just like Sophia (especially if we use an Iron Lance like you suggested).

Honestly, they're combat stats relative to each other are irrelevant. They're both bad enough that neither will ever see combat in any kind of efficient playthrough.

And in the case they are... Sophia's better because she gets you a Guiding Ring. Either to sell or to use on like Lugh, Ray, Clarine, Saul, Ellen... etc

My original point, which you seem to be ignoring: Does this make Sophia waaay better than Wendy? No. +1 move and a Guiding Ring vs. not being ORKO'd by every single enemy is not exactly a blowout.

Yes, it does... As I said ORKO doesnt really even matter here. >_>

I'm fully aware of that (having also managed to get Sophia to the Guiding Ring untouched in a draft playthrough). But Raven was trying to bring it up as a point in favor of Sophia somehow.

Yep, absorbing sleep staves is actually the primary one (what someone else said) which actually makes her infinitely more useful in her forced chapter than Wendy's forced chapter. There's one you didnt counter...

Also, ever considered the possibility that these two units suck so much dick that someone used that trait of theirs as snark bait for this tier list? Creating two tiers to highlight how much they fucking suck gets the point across quite well. Sophia > Wendy in either case, and I'm glad you at least concede to that.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

Sophia > Wendy in either case, and I'm glad you at least concede to that.

I never said Wendy > Sophia, so I don't know where you got that from. Regardless, if you're saying that +1 move and the Guiding Ring (and absorbing the Sleep staff I suppose, although I didn't bother with that one because I've never had her targeted by it) does indeed make her that much better, then we're simply going to have to agree to disagree there. Arguing how much Sophia is better than Wendy isn't very productive, anyway.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[-Cynthia-]

Not to open up a big can of worms here, but if we're including the Guiding Ring as part of Sophia's contributions, she's probably better than Karel/Dorothy/Merlinus at the very least, could possibly go above Bors/Wolt. 5000g or a promoted magic user> whatever they're doing.

Now if we don't include the Guiding Ring she's still better than Wendy IMO, since she takes staff attacks in C14. It's kind of like she Restored another unit indirectly?

[Lord Raven]

Early on, Merlinus makes a great diversion for enemies. He's basically immortal, too.

No one was actually contesting Sophia > Wendy, it was more their relative tier ranks (they were in separate tiers with Sophia being above). I'm pretty much passing it off as a joke, and even if it's serious I don't mind it staying. As for Karel, he may be outclassed by the time he shows up but he's usable. That's the key difference between him and Sophia.

I honestly believe Karel could go above Bors and for that matter Sophia... simply because he has the potential to help out in the final chapter. Bors honestly has no real potential, being surrounded by Axe users for a while and then being too slow and inaccurate to end up dealing with Soldiers and Mercs/Myrmidons. Karel isn't stupidly frail or slow, he's not particularly good at combat either but I'm sure he could help more in 23 than Bors does in the first couple chapters.

Dorothy's chip damage towards Wyverns in C7 is kind of worth something though, compared to Karel's use in the final couple chapters. I actually don't really support Sophia > Dorothy and Wolt, but Sophia&Karel > Bors is something that could be brought up?

EDIT: I may be missing something here but Klein is listed twice in Upper Mid. Is one referring to Lalum's route and the other Elphin's route or am I missing something else? Sacae upper mid, that is.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[-Cynthia-]

Early on, Merlinus makes a great diversion for enemies. He's basically immortal, too.

No one was actually contesting Sophia > Wendy, it was more their relative tier ranks (they were in separate tiers with Sophia being above). I'm pretty much passing it off as a joke, and even if it's serious I don't mind it staying. As for Karel, he may be outclassed by the time he shows up but he's usable. That's the key difference between him and Sophia.

I honestly believe Karel could go above Bors and for that matter Sophia... simply because he has the potential to help out in the final chapter. Bors honestly has no real potential, being surrounded by Axe users for a while and then being too slow and inaccurate to end up dealing with Soldiers and Mercs/Myrmidons. Karel isn't stupidly frail or slow, he's not particularly good at combat either but I'm sure he could help more in 23 than Bors does in the first couple chapters.

Sophia is pretty much unusable, but 5000g/promoted magic unit > chip in Ch6 or being a filler unit in C23. It should really be decided whether the Guiding Ring counts or not for Sophia, just making it a tiebreaker so she's over Wendy is rather arbitrary. Be aware that any source of money in this game is pretty darn important, we can exchange that Guiding Ring for a Boots later.

Bors is kinda useful in some of the early chapters regardless of his combat problems. He can visit the village in Chapter 1, help recruit Lugh, chip iron Sword Cavaliers etc. It isn't much (which is why he's so low), but it usually ends up being more than what Karel does.

EDIT: I may be missing something here but Klein is listed twice in Upper Mid. Is one referring to Lalum's route and the other Elphin's route or am I missing something else? Sacae upper mid, that is.

I'm pretty sure it's just an error. I assume the higher one is the mistake.

[Radiant Dragon]

Sophia is pretty much unusable, but 5000g/promoted magic unit > chip in Ch6 or being a filler unit in C23.

Replace 'Sophia' with 'Guiding Ring', and I'll agree to this. Might as well rank all of the other promotion items too, while you're at it.

[Anouleth]

Replace 'Sophia' with 'Guiding Ring', and I'll agree to this. Might as well rank all of the other promotion items too, while you're at it.

It seems like rather a double standard to let Thieves take credit for the items that they steal or find in the desert, yet not permit the same for Sophia.

[Radiant Dragon]

It seems like rather a double standard to let Thieves take credit for the items that they steal or find in the desert, yet not permit the same for Sophia.

I agree with this, I just don't think that Sophia's Guiding Ring is > Dorothy's performance against Wyverns or Karel being an RNG-proof, excellent offensive unit in the final chapters.

[Anouleth]

I agree with this, I just don't think that Sophia's Guiding Ring is > Dorothy's performance against Wyverns or Karel being an RNG-proof, excellent offensive unit in the final chapters.

Karel is not really excellent in the final chapters. Any idiot could do what he does in Chapter 24: even a scrub like Zealot can pick up a Divine weapon and hit Mamkutes with it, except that Zealot also has +2 move and canto and better rescuing, as well as two more chapters in which to use Boots for even more movement.

Dorothy's performance against Wyverns is nothing to write home about. It is nothing that Wolt does not do just as well and Sue does better.

[Balcerzak]

Karel is not really excellent in the final chapters. Any idiot could do what he does in Chapter 24: even a scrub like Zealot can pick up a Divine weapon and hit Mamkutes with it, except that Zealot also has +2 move and canto and better rescuing, as well as two more chapters in which to use Boots for even more movement.

Zealot will probably never get the Sword rank for Durandal, and Malte has so many contenders it's ridiculous.

[Radiant Dragon]

Karel is not really excellent in the final chapters. Any idiot could do what he does in Chapter 24: even a scrub like Zealot can pick up a Divine weapon and hit Mamkutes with it, except that Zealot also has +2 move and canto and better rescuing, as well as two more chapters in which to use Boots for even more movement.

Dorothy's performance against Wyverns is nothing to write home about. It is nothing that Wolt does not do just as well and Sue does better.

And this is why they're in Low Tier. However, just because they're outclassed by better units, that doesn't mean that they can't do these things.

[-Cynthia-]

I think Sue could go above Oujay, at least on Sacae route. I'll just quickly sum up Sue's C7 and half of C8 as "can combine for kills on stuff, does bonus damage on wyverns). Let's say Sue is level 4 by the time Oujay shows up.

4/0 Sue (Iron Bow)

20 HP 12 Mt 10 AS 5 Def 0 Res

3/0 Oujay (Iron Sword)

24 HP 12 Mt 9 AS 4 Def 0 Res

Very similar combat parameters. However, Sue has +2 Mov on Oujay. You could say Oujay has a better Enemy Phase, but given their relatively poor durability Sue not taking counters might be better anyway.

Growthwise they're pretty similar, Oujay has 30% more HP, 10% more Str, 10% more Def, 5 % more Lck, Sue has 20% more Spd, 25% more Skl, so there probably aren't huge gaps forming between the two statwise. However, Sue has the benefit of a nearly uncontested promotion item which allows her to promote as early as C12...Oujay probably cannot promote until C16 without taking away from Dieck/Gonzales/Fir. In Sacae Sue's combat is also significantly better, since countering/possibly doubling Nomads with Silver/Killer Bows is better than trying to hit them with Hand Axes and she can ORKO wyverns while he can't. It really comes down to horse>no horse here IMO.

[Lord Raven]

Karel is not really excellent in the final chapters. Any idiot could do what he does in Chapter 24: even a scrub like Zealot can pick up a Divine weapon and hit Mamkutes with it, except that Zealot also has +2 move and canto and better rescuing, as well as two more chapters in which to use Boots for even more movement.

Dorothy's performance against Wyverns is nothing to write home about. It is nothing that Wolt does not do just as well and Sue does better.

Of course they wouldn't be doing better than characters better than them, that still doesn't mean they don't have that potential. In which case, the fact that Karel can wield Durandal and go against Mamkutes in the final chapters (as well as some nearby enemies in the current chapter) is a point in his favor against Dorothy and Wolt who can only chip enemies and Wyverns. If Sue does it "better" and Wolt is doing it "just as well" it doesn't mean Dorothy isn't doing any worse, it just means that they're given priority and therefore are a higher tier. This "competition" nonsense doesn't apply here in this case.

Furthermore, Karel doesn't require much more shielding than some of your current units in the final chapter. This is, depending on your perspective, better than random chip that Wolt/Dorothy can do (unless Wyverns are really THAT bad in HM -- I don't entirely recall). The argument is that you may not need him, but "may not" does not speak anything on his potential or his abilities in an efficient run.

As for Bors, I still don't understand how he's really above anyone. I played a ranked HM run and he could not keep up at all; a ranked run makes a difference here considering I have a lot more ability, resources, and turns to build him up or help him catch up. This was not the case. Bors did not have the accuracy with a Javelin and the only chip he ended up doing was to a random Soldier on Turn 1 of C2 and nothing more. C3 only has him useful to go to the eastern villages so no one else has to go out of their way, and C4 is filled to the brim with Cavaliers that double him at base Spd (considering there's no way he could get any more than one level up by this point without massively hurting efficiency). And I did do a fact check, Pirates tend to have between 5 and 8 AS (Iron Axe has 7-8 and Hand has an upwards of 7), Archers have 15 Atk/7 AS (if Bors is getting hit by one he's getting ganged up unless you go out of your way). Iron Lance Cavs 2RKO him, Iron Sword cavs KO him in anywhere from 7-10 Rounds but he'll easily get attacked by anything else that will completely kill him.

Karel? Requires you to visit a village and then he's pretty much ready from the getgo. He may be outclassed, but he can double Snipers. He can kill them with a critical hit, which is quite likely considering his 44 base crit with either 40 from Wo Dao or 30 from Killing Edge. In two hits, he will clearly one round them (20 Str + 9 Mt = 17ish damage against C23 Snipers, 51 on a Crit, I'm not going to number crunch but if they have 14 Cev he has essentially a 60% chance to OHKO with a Killing Edge).

So tell me, when exactly does small chip damage (and being too weak to effectively defend against anything, in Wolt and Dorothy's case, meaning that against Wyverns they must be heavily protected- not all that efficient) and being a piss poor high defense/low move unit in the earlygame ever get better than being an average endgame unit? The fact that he doesn't need EXP works quite effectively for him, and when he does get EXP he gets a tad bit better anyway.

Fuck, the fact that Sophia can absorb a Sleep staff and get a Guiding Ring -- essentially being a free Restore to any single one of your units and not being hard to guard considering she doesn't make use of her offense -- is way better than anything Bors can contribute. Or even Dorothy, considering Dorothy's 14 Atk either weighs her down against some of the faster enemies or she does quite literally only scratch with an Iron Bow. And, of course, the fact of the matter is that her use dwindles considering she only has 5 move forever.

Of course, I won't argue anything about Wolt being compared to Dorothy, and I don't think I made any sort of case for Karel > Wolt, but I'm pretty sure Karel can contribute by being an extra unit to kill off annoying Snipers and use a Wyrmslayer against Wyverns for more killing than Wolt can with scratch damage on early-game enemies and Wyverns. Either way, it's not ideal to be dragging around a 5 move unit on some of the harder maps in the game, especially because Wolt will get absolutely mauled by Cavaliers in the Wyvern chapter. Still better than what Bors is doing. Once again, Durandal/Wyrmslayer for final chapter; nobody gives a fuck if even Zealot can do it. Who the fuck cares who else can do it, that's not relevant to the argument; notice how I didn't bring up Sue one bit in this argument, otherwise that would've been more of a "who gives a fuck about Wolt and Dorothy," since my point deals more with Karel than Wolt and Dorothy.

Sue can completely trivialize anything Wolt and Dorothy can pull off against those Wyverns simply due to her move, and she gets better chip because of her movement. In Ilia, her movement compounds even more and she has a bunch of Pegasi to pick off. On top of Rescue utility, etc etc etc we don't need to hear some dumb lecture on why Sue > Wolt and Dorothy simply due to the sheer irrelevance of the situation to the argument at hand.

tl;dr, Bors is fucking awful, Karel > Bors, Karel could be > Dorothy and even > Wolt, and Sophia > Bors, Sophia could also be > Dorothy and Wolt but still not likely.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[dondon151]

Keep in mind that you pretty much do need to restore Sophia if you want the Guiding Ring, and it's not beneficial to leave her asleep because that bishop will target someone else.

[Lord Raven]

Cecilia barely has anything better to do, Clerics have enough move to get around.

[Colonel M]

No on Sophia w/Guiding Ring. I think we've been over that fact quite a few times. In fact I'm about ready from banning Wendy and Sophia arguments just to spare everyone from the utter stupidity of it all.

Sue > OJ seems fair. Karel hopping over units seems a little skeptical.

I'm going camping this weekend, so it may be a while for changes to be made. Continue discussing on those, and I guess if worse comes to worse we can discuss other changes.

[Lord Raven]

I don't mind banning Wendy arguments for now. She is arguably the worst character in the fucking game by a long shot.

No on Sophia w/Guiding Ring. I think we've been over that fact quite a few times.

When?

Karel hopping over units seems a little skeptical.

If you're going to say that then argue points or have someone else argue it.

[Balcerzak]

I don't mind banning Wendy arguments for now. She is arguably the worst character in the fucking game by a long shot.

When?

If you're going to say that then argue points or have someone else argue it.

Well the thing is, we just finished moving Dorothy over Karel maybe a week ago.

[frat_tastic]

Banning discussions in a tier list thread is one of the dumbest things I've heard. If discussing Wendy doesn't interest you, don't partake in the discussion. BOOM, look at how easy that is.

The guiding ring and Sophia topic has been discussed a lot before, probably actually the last time we talked about Wendy and Sophia. I remember there being one pretty hefty discussion on what constituted as actions that should be credited to units, like stealing, seizing, etc. It's been talked about a few times, but not in the really recent past.

I'd probably say that Dorothy>Karel still. Yeah, Karel can equip Durandal and kill Mamkutes and shit in his last chapter, but I don't really know if that helps me more when that chapter is easy compared to like CH7, where Dorothy's chip against Wyverns probably helps me more seeing as how at that point the enemies are pretty ridiculous compared to our own units.