FE6 HM Tier List

[Refa]

Alan and Lance have crap for weapon ranks, so even with slightly better stats they're still worse overall.

[Espinosa]

I think later on into the game, a chapter-by-chapter tier list would be really difficult to envisage because units' performance depend on how much you've been able to use them until now and what resources they took. For example, endgame Lilina must be a great unit and could rank highly on such lists but the cost would be training her all this time, likely losing turns and largely sacrificing any traces of reliability (in terms of her survival and level-ups being way above average).

Playstyle and strategy are also really important to how you rank units (specific lowest-turn strat(-s) or flexible, lax) - namely, is it is TAS reliability (if it can be done at all, it is done), dondon reliability (should look well and not rely on low% crits) or XeKr reliability (save loaded on cart, with no intention to restart but still going for a somewhat low turn count).

Such a list could be really interesting to see and discuss though.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Espinosa

[-Cynthia-]

I'm not saying that

I was mostly responding to your comment "The other units in the tier that can't be easily replicated"

If Alance can replicate Zealot that doesn't mean Zealot is worse so much that Alance and Zealot are equally good

I would say that they are equal for much of their shared playtime, but since Alance have a significant availability lead they're better.

Zealot's weapon ranks allow him to Hammer things in 7+8 and use the Silver Lance in these chapters, but when they get to the Isles I'm not sure how useful Zealot's weapon ranks are overall. Alance will have the D swords for Steel Sword use.

[Refa]

Zealot can use the Killing Edge and Light Brand, though.

[-Cynthia-]

Alance can have C swords by the Isles anyway- they have ~9 chapters to get to D swords and the paladin promo gives them an additional weapon level. There are also other uses for the Killing Edge/Light Brand (letting Rutger bosskill or have 1-2 range for instance).

[dondon151]

-cynthia- is right in that the higher sword rank doesn't really mean much for zealot; it gives you a minor fallback if rutger somehow falls <10 HP damage short of ORKOing a boss. there's not a situation in which zealot really wants to use the KE.

the lance rank advantage is similar: it gives zealot a huge advantage in chapter 7, but beyond that, zealot only needs the silver lance to ORKO a couple of enemy archers. but alance might be able to ORKO the same archer with an iron axe (actually probably only happening with allen, because he needs 15 str). as for axe rank, zealot can hammer a really important knight in chapter 12... and that's about it, if we ignore for a moment the fact that he's doing just about everything better in chapter 8.

i think the only real intuitive argument for zealot above the cavs is that you have the cavs (plus noah, mind) competing for role of tertiary paladin whereas zealot firmly has his position secured on the team. but that's more of an argument from opportunity cost than anything else, and i don't know what you guys want to make of that. one of the problems that i have with assessing alance's positions on the list is the assumed playstyle, since i don't know of any normal playthroughs that have really attempted to be as fast as 0% v4, plus i don't know how much better alance gets with a slightly slower playstyle.

Edited May 7, 2014 by dondon151

[XeKr]

I think Zealot is worse than Alance.

On the flip side of Alance being possibly stat screwed is them being blessed in Str/Spd and thus outclassing Zealot during the Isles portion of the game which is the only part he was about equal to them anyway. Can't just look at the negative side of growths, that's why we use averages.

If they promote early, they're about equal to Zealot once this happens. Zealot has two chapters where he's promoted but they are not, they have six chapters where they exist and he does not.

The only way Zealot wins is if you discount Alance's early game chapters somehow, but if earlygame doesn't count then people like Lot/Dieck/Ellen are also in the wrong place.

The other units in the tier that can't be easily replicated, Zealot is largely replaceable by Alance shortly after arrival.

Yeah, but being above averages probably matters less than being below averages, if said values are borderline or important benchmarks. Growth distributions are pretty variable, and averages are not very useful without context. While stat blessing happens, in general, it’s less likely to matter. This is primarily inherent because there’s some other factors in the ultimate limit of how fast you can go (overkill, move, levels, etc). Though functionally, we observe that it's more probable to at least meet a lower benchmark compared to a higher one.

Case in point, Allen needs at least 5 Spd procs +promotion at 45% growth to match Zealot’s base Spd. Supposing he gets to promotion by then, 10/1 Allen has a 37.8% chance of reaching or exceeding that (62.9% to reach his average of 12 Spd or more). Plus, consider the (seriously) imperfect accuracy when setting up some of those kills to get to that level in the first place. Some kills are certainly inevitable in the process of efficient clears, but others are luxuries and they can’t self-sufficiently get exp. Such is FE6.

Otoh, you can be sure Zealot doubles 8-9 AS enemies 100% of the time. In context, that’s probably more relevant overall than Allen having around a 16.6% or so (or less) chance to double 10 AS enemies. (which look to be few in number, but eh there’s probably variations there too. Incidentally, Lance is a lot better off, at 91% and 74.6% to reach 13/14 Spd or more).

The point being more reliable > less reliable. Zealot can always do Zealot’s (quite important) duties in efficient clears, whereas Allance only replicate it some (most?) of the time and cost resources to do so (Knight’s Crest, kill exp, etc). Being "about equal" is currently questionable to me, though Lance probably has the better case (but does he miss 2hko’s without the Str/Weapon rank?).

It’s probably also important not to skim over Zealot’s durability/weapon rank lead, and just how crucial Zealot is in his 2 chapters extra of being a Paladin, C7 being quite difficult, and C8 being quite long. He’s the best unit there, whereas Allance are mostly utility dudes supporting Marcus in their early chapters.

Regardless (this is all fairly nitpicky), I agree with you that, ultimately, it probably depends on how the early chapters are valued, and perhaps a few later things (things Zealot perhaps can’t do). The current position of Wolt (and even stuff like Marcus/Percival) implies that to some extent, intuitively, we think earlygame doesn’t matter as much (though I don’t really lean strongly either way on this. It’s somewhat logical, but tricky to deal with consistently. dangerous philosophical meandering though). The mid/lategame has the dominance of Miledy/Percival/Warpers, so I’m not sure how much Allance is actually expected to contribute there either, beyond what Zealot does.

Certainly, the lack of evidence is an issue on both sides here. <_<

Playstyle and strategy are also really important to how you rank units (specific lowest-turn strat(-s) or flexible, lax) - namely, is it is TAS reliability (if it can be done at all, it is done), dondon reliability (should look well and not rely on low% crits) or XeKr reliability (save loaded on cart, with no intention to restart but still going for a somewhat low turn count).

To clarify, my view is not so much no reseting, but more like those reset turns are also “counted” in a way, so we want to adopt a strategy that maximizes that efficiency/minimizes those turns as well as the ones during the actual clear. It could still be that it’s worth a risky strategy over a cautious one if the speed of the clear is significant enough. In addition to my preference, this way of thinking has some precedent in the use of average stats, even if it isn’t traditionally thought of that way.

One of the obvious criticisms being that probability doesn’t play out like so in real FE6; in reality, you have 100% chance or 0% chance to clear, depending on your strategy and execution.

Moreover, the ensemble view necessarily requires a model to interpret (there’s always going to be certain issues intrinsic to modeling and wrt to biasing/weights, though this is trivially true in general). We’d end up estimating stuff anyways, so it ends up being handwavey to an extent as well (though I think this doesn’t really matter if it’s enough to satisfactorily resolve character differences.)

Chapter-by-chapter lists could be cool in general, though there's a few obvious issues off the top of my head. But someone should start it if they're interested.

EDIT: i bad at stats

Edited May 7, 2014 by XeKr

[Colonel M]

Sorry about the crit algorithm. Like someone else mentioned - they don't teach these things in grade school and I'm from the hicks. :(

I can agree to Zealot dropping a little. And Chapter-by-Chapter tier lists too as a separate project.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Colonel M

[Titamon]

It's nice to see my girl Sue getting some respect

[Colonel M]

So after watching dondon's 0% growths (and re-considering if I want to play FE6 HM again), I decided to re-evaluate the HM tier list once more just for shits and giggles. Perhaps, in a way, aim it to be the perfect tier list.

Red Fox of Fire, your FE10 Tier List will now be debunked.

Some of these changes are major, so follow with me if you can.

-Top Tier-

Miledy
Rutger
Percival
Marcus
Lalum
Elphin

To put it bluntly - I know Rutger is a good boss killer. I know Rutger definitely saves turns because of this. And I know dondon technically had a gimped Rutger because Rutger lacked growths. Yet, at the end of the day, I sit and wonder to myself "is his bosskilling utility saving more turns than what some of these other units are doing?"

Take Marcus for example. He's a unit that saves a tremendous amount of turns and headaches alone. His contributions throughout the game are pretty valid even up to later chapters since he has 8 Movement and can ferry people around. He even kills some bosses on his own - Chapter 3's boss is killed better with Marcus than Deke, and Marcus usually has a better edge against Erik than Rutger does. There are definitely bosses Rutger makes a hell of a lot easier (Henning), but I think at the end of the day the amount of efficiency we're getting from Rutger is still less than Marcus and Zealot. Whether he trumps Lalum and Elphin is one thing. And, I want to point out that I still understand how Rutger > Percival and Marcus is somewhat possible. Still, Rutger is an average combat unit outside of boss circumstances that has a lot of vulnerabilities when he isn't facing just Axe users.

My proposed change:

-Top Tier-
Miledy

Rutger
Percival
Marcus

Rutger
Lalum
Elphin

-High Tier-

Saul

Shanna

Niime

Zealot

Shin
Tate

Astor
Alan
Lance

Zealot vs Shin is kind of an odd one. Zealot is really helpful when he joins, but Shin does have an upper hand on being a useful unit even when locked to a Bow. Lack of real 1 range and needing training does suck for Shin, I guess, but let's face it - Zealot is basically being Marcus 2.0 for a little while longer. I question if, at the end of the day, if Zealot is saving more than Shin is. In the short term, Zealot is definitely superior. In the long turn, though, I actually think Shin is the better unit.

Astor, Alan, and Lance are mixed up I think. Maybe Tate too, but at least Tate has flying utility in some later chapters (such as Ilia if you go that route). I might've jumped the gun on Astor > Alan and Lance. With growths, Alan and Lance at least contribute nicely up to Percival's arrival, and they probably can last so long as only one of the two are trained. Person experience makes me lean towards Alan > Lance, but I am willing to put Lance > Alan if the Speed is a huge difference to someone. I feel in instances where Lance is doubling he just falls short of the 2HKO many times unless he's stuck with heavier and costly weapons (that is, assuming he can reach Iron Blade as an example). Alan doesn't have a lot of room to fuck up on Speed, though, so there is also that.

Proposed changes are as follows:

-High Tier-

Saul

Shanna

Niime

Zealot

Shin

Zealot

Tate

Astor
Alan
Lance

Astor

I am also willing to discuss Shin vs Niime.

-Upper Mid-

Zeiss

Deke

Yodel
Cecilia

Clarine
Klein

Igrene

Noah
Echidna

Another potential extreme change is Clarine. As we've seen throughout various playthroughs done in a low turn count setting Clarine is very prone to being left behind. Though she can be trained and used while still boasting a horse her low Magic and D Staff ranking is rough. Being Level 1 really hurts, too, because that means Clarine has to wait that much longer to even promote to Valkyrie. I probably won't lie - I even slightly question Ellen being a whole tier below Clarine. What keeps it that way, thankfully, is that Ellen starts off really bad and Clarine at least is mounted. She can be used for Rescue shenanigans since her Con is pretty good for ferrying a lot of units.

With that said, I think Clarine should definitely be below Klein and Igrene, and probably even below Noah. Being below Echidna is questionable for sure, but not completely farfetch'd.

I did think a little bit about dropping Deke, but one thing that helps Deke is his earlygame. I don't think he's getting that first Hero's Crest. That's definitely Rutger's. I feel, also, that could probably be Deke's midgame nail in the coffin.

Proposed changes are as followed:

-Upper Mid-

Zeiss

Deke

Yodel
Cecilia

Clarine
Klein

Igrene

Noah

Clarine
Echidna

-Mid-

Ellen

Sue

Fir

Bartre
Lugh

Chad

Gonzalez

Fae

Lot

Honestly from Upper Mid on most of the units down here are mostly seen as filler units or units with very small utility (see - Ellen). I feel Fae's lack of real use for the most part is a real downer. Granted, dondon didn't really use her partly due to lacking growths. Even with growths, though, she has issues with a limited weapon and low Movement. She's great for staff bait... but... so can many units honestly. She can't really OHKO late game Manaketes and she needs investment to double them (lol3baseSpeed).

I also think Lot is going to get the axe here and drop to Lower Mid. How I see it - Lot's usefulness is cut down a bit if the player foregoes the Halberd. The Halberd gave Lot an advantage in Chapters 4 and 7 to keep him around a little while longer. Though he's good for earlygame - that isn't saying a whole lot. Most of Lot's contributions are pretty small and almost forgettable.

There is one other thing I wanted to talk about - potentially swapping Lugh, Chad, and Gonzalez's spots. I feel that Gonzalez's semi-viable combat is better most of the time than Lugh's accurate 2 range chip in some chapters. Lugh's contributions aren't really jaw-dropping either and he doesn't really grow into anything that stellar. Chad is only useful for like some treasure. I feel that the change would just be Gonzalez > Chad > Lugh, but I am also willing to go with Lugh > Chad or keeping Gonzalez where he is.

There's one last thing I feel that I need to discuss - I also feel Roy could be moved to Mid. Roy at least is viable early game and can, if trained, hold his own okay in the Western Isles. When he promotes, he's a decent unit that has some use. The only thing is his uses are really minor late game because, again, he's being ferried a lot. Still, Roy's earlygame contributions are probably stronger than Lugh's at least.

The proposed changes are as follows:

-Mid-

Ellen

Sue

Fir

Bartre

Gonzalez

Chad

Roy

Lugh
Lugh

Chad

Gonzalez

Fae

Lot

-Lower Mid-

Garret

Treck

Roy

Raigh
Oujay
Lilina

Cath

I made a stealth change a while ago - I dropped Garret below to Lower Mid. He will likely drop below Treck as well, though again I am open to disagreement on that. I might be able to buy Lilina > Raigh and Oujay if only because, if Lilina is trained, she might be able to pull off a few shenanigans with Bolting. Outside of those circumstances, though, she's really bad. I don't think may people are going to huff and puff with Lilina > those two anyway. Definitely chime in if you disagree.

I discussed Roy above so his name will be slashed on here. Don't worry - I remembered him.

The proposed changes are as follows:

-Lower Mid-

Garret

Treck

Garret

Roy

Lilina

Raigh
Oujay
Lilina

Cath

I'm willing to listen to Cath > Oujay and Raigh just because she could at least steal in her joining chapter and be better than those two losers.

-Low Tier-

Wolt

Ward

Dayan
Juno

Geese
Hugh
Douglas
Barth
Merlinus
Bors
Dorothy
Karel

*sweats bullets*

I am going to cross off Barth's name here. You will see later below. Take notes - a pop quiz will follow!

I think I want to place Dorothy above Geese if only because she is somewhat useful in Chapter 7 and her joining chapter. Outside of those circumstances Dorothy isn't really worth it.

Before anyone asks - I'm not taking Merlinus being an unkillable unit as a valid argument to raise higher.

The proposed changes are as follows:

-Low Tier-

Wolt

Ward

Dayan
Juno

Dorothy

Geese
Hugh
Douglas
Barth
Merlinus
Bors
Dorothy
Karel

-Utter Shit-

Sophia

Wendy

Now normally, you would think nothing would change here. Normally.

Except I have one curve ball.

Pop quiz: what name did I slash off and never mentioned again?

Answer: Barth!

This is one that took me a while to really conclude, but after some thinking I'm surprised no one else has challenged Barth to Bottom Tier. What I'm going to propose can be seen as shaky grounds, but the lower tiers are full of shaky grounds. After you read my short quip perhaps you will understand.

Let's take a look at Barth - he's an Armor Knight. He joins kind of late. His stats appear okay, though in fairness he lacks in some stats. As far as combat he contributes a small bit in Chapter 8, but nothing humongous. Barth is flawed in two different ways. The first has already been mentioned - he's an Armor Knight. Even though Bors is also an Armor Knight he is free of use up until Chapter 6. His contributions are small, but at least exist. Barth's are hard to see. In fact, in dondon's recent 0% growths playthrough he was only good enough to bust through a wall - a contribution that was more for the free Armorslayer than anything else. Barth's Movement is a huge hindrance... but there is actually another huge hindrance Barth has.

His Con.

I know what you're thinking - "what the actual fuck?" But think about it - Barth's 16 Con forces him to two units to carry him. Both of them, may I add, need to be unpromoted. That is Shanna and Shin. 16 Con is a lot, and we kind of knock Gonzalez on that a bit too at times. Sometimes not enough (and by the way, I am willing to revert my Gonzalez proposition based on this alone). The issue is Barth's fastest way of patching his combat is also the most costly. Not only does it eat a coveted Knight Crest that Alan, Lance, Noah, or even Train Wreck can use, it also means that Barth gains an extra 2 Con. This makes him so heavy that only unpromoted Shin will ever be able to carry him. That makes it extremely difficult to maneuver Barth into favorable positions where other units can do that without much issue. It's also a struggle with Douglas - but to be fair, Douglas can be used in incredibly niche situations. I'm willing to drop Douglas, but I don't think he will join Barth in Bottom.

Basic arguments to drop Barth to Bottom are as follows:

- No (outstanding) combat parameters.

- Armor Knight

- High Constitution becomes a major problem in Rescue chains

- Armor Knight

Barth will, however, remain above Sophia and Wendy.

So basically:

-Utter Shit-

Barth

Sophia

Wendy

=====

I know this is a bump from a year ago, but at least the content is within line of the tier list and its changes. If you need to, I would highly advise watching dondon's 0% playthrough. This may also help a bit with some of the reasoning behind the tier list changes.

Please do not feel afraid to discuss, agree, or disagree with anything I have proposed or currently have on this list.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Colonel M

[Irysa]

You slashed Fae without putting her back anywere.

I agree that Marcus is better than Rutger, but I think there's possibly a case to be made for Marcus over Percival (and perhaps even Rutger over Percival?). Percival is a fantastic unit, but his contributions are less essential for efficient clears than Marcus and Rutger's are. Or rather, a playthrough lacking Percival does not lose as much efficiency as a playthrough lacking Rutger or Marcus, generally because your units have become fairly competant by the time Percival shows up, wheras Marcus, Rutger and Dieck do a lot of heavy lifting early on. Miledy's case is a bit different since anything but an insanely RNG abused Shanna can't hope to compare to her offensive power AND bulk as a flier, and Miledy can leverage that to her advantage frequently by going on solo endeavours. Alan or Lance can't match Percival's stats without excessive training that is out of reach (or RNG abuse), but they can get close enough to usually make it not a large loss in efficiency/turns.

Additionally, I think people underestimate how long Marcus can remain combat relevant. Enemy Cavaliers and Pegs are hilariously slow in this game, and even a 12 AS Marcus can put a dent in them with an Iron Axe (50% hp damage to most Cavs), use the Horseslayer or Halberd (if you got it) against them, or Silver Lance (he actually ORKOs some Pegs in Ilia at base with a Silver Lance lol), or else he can use the Brave Lance fairly effectively against some other select enemies (Mages, Archers) that he cannot double due to his solid skill without being at too much risk himself.

Whilst it's true that this is not particulary impressive, the point is that Marcus does not fall into pure utility tier after 12x is over. As such, I propose Percival is docked to below Marcus.

----------

As for Clarine, I think even considering the fact she tends to fall behind, never reach promotion, etc, she's still better than Klein and Igrene given their usefulness is generally more sparse, even if its a stronger showing when it matters. Clarine is useful for basically every turn till Cecilia shows up because she can always preform some action that is benefitting the team in some manner, either via rescuing/dropping or Healing. Clarine can also be feasibly trained to use the Rescue Staff if promoted, and her mounted movement makes her a better user of it than Saul or Niime before boots are buyable. Put her back to her previous position.

----------

Sue to Upper Mid, below or above Noah. Shin is unequivocally better than Sue, but Alan and Lance also unequivocally better than Noah, yet Noah is not two whole tiers behind them. Shin rarely cleanly ORKOs even with his big stat lead on anything but Mages or Fliers. He usually has to fall back on Killer Bows or the Brave Bow in order to make it happen, and Sue is pretty much the same in this area as she has no issues doubling after some training, and she even has fairly kind chapters in which to train in (lots of weak EXP sponge Soldiers around). Additionally, Sue will have a notable Bow Rank lead on Shin by the time he shows up. I got her to C Bows in LTC by the end of 8x, and whilst its true that was a rigged Sue, most of her kills and combat were not reliant on her stats being high. A slower playthrough should be able to make up the deficit fairly easily. This means Sue can be utilising the Killer Bow well before Shin can, and she can use the Brave Bow with a promotion quickly too.

I think that a level 6 Sue is not unreasonable by Chapter 9. On average, she can double all of the enemies with an Iron Bow, and with one more speed proc she can double them with the Killer Bow. Because of the inflated levels of the enemies in the Isles, Sue grows about as fast as Shin does, so she can maintain her doubling status consistently, and as the game goes on she is capable of replicating nearly all of Shin's major roles with very few exceptions (such being likely unable to double the Bolting Sage in 16x with a Longbow, or being at risk of being doubled by Narcian whilst using the Brave Bow).

The biggest argument against Sue is that you only really need one Nomad. The net benefits to having two Nomads are nowhere near as high as having one, and training both Nomads makes it more likely that you'll end up in Sacae. Sacae and Ilia are pretty close in overall turncounts, but Sacae has much douchier bosses and dodgier enemies, so total reliability is reduced on that route compared to Ilia where most enemies have low AS values or are weak to some form of effective weaponry. You also get Niime later in Sacae which makes it more difficult for her to reach Apocalypse. Still, this isn't a massive deal, and I think that fundamentally, Shin's big stat lead on Sue is a bit superfluous much of the time, so it should not be so unthinkable as to have an efficient playthrough where either two Nomads are used, or Sue is the only Nomad being trained.

----------

In Roy's case, Roy's combat is generally always going to be mediocre. In the Isles, whilst he can do okay, he can't double with Steels, so he's relegated to doing about 16 damage a round with an Iron assuming he made it to 10 speed or so, which is hardly great considering his 5 movement. In nearly all circumstances where Roy is actually getting any EXP, he's just just finishing off an enemy someone else could have killed, and he never gets out of this stage, so he can never really be self sufficient in combat. Investing in Roy is more useful for his defence than offence, as a tankier Roy needs to be handled with less care, which increases your strategic flexability. Besides earlygame and post promotion, Roy isn't really capable of doing anything important. He should be at the bottom of mid, or the top of Lower Mid, not the middle of Mid!

----------

There is a tiering philosophy problem with Mid Tier regarding Lugh, Gonzalez and Fir. Generally, I don't think any of these units actually have much (if any) impact on the efficiency of a playthrough if trained, because there just aren't that many important things for them to ever do, but they're combat capable enough that you'd never have to really go out of your way to get them to a promotion. Lugh comparatively is more of a chore to attempt to actively train (mostly since he can't really handle enemy phases prior to promotion), so he negatively impacts efficiency in that manner, but he offsets that by making distinct contributions in the earlygame with his safe and accurate chip damage, along with significantly denting the odd Knight.

I think the sole argument that has been made for Fir's relevance is that if Rutger got stat screwed then dumping some EXP into Fir for a promotion can result in more reliable bosskills for Chapters 11B (Elphin), 12 and 12x, so that elevates her above Gonzo. However I've yet to see any arguments for Gonzo preforming any important tasks at all, especially considering he is a huge pain to lug around. Lugh is easy to ferry around to train if you are training him, and if trained, he can put pretty large dents in otherwise problematic enemies, similar to Gonzo, or do things like enable the routing of the top left of Chapter 14, letting you feed the Manakete to a unit such as your tertiary Paladin with a Light Brand.

A good argument against Lugh is that it is overall more efficient to promote Saul with the first Guiding Ring, as this gives him Physic access in some of the larger maps and increases his general flexability via giving him combat options. The second Ring is generally better off sold frankly, similar to the second Hero Crest. However this problem applies to Fir and Gonzalez too, as the Crest is better off sold, and Fir has potentially more of a case for taking it in some situations (mentioned earlier), so I think the negatives of promoting Lugh are about equal to promoting either of these two.

As such, I think Lugh should be above Gonzo, because he makes some earlygame contributions in just about any playthrough, and that offsets the negatives of actively training him, and then he can actually be ferried around or utilised for some select roles, and his promotion contestion is pretty much in the same territory as Gonzo anyway.

----------

I think Garret is about equal to Treck in terms of total contributions they can make, but not using Garret has next to no impact, wheras not using Treck has a slight negative impact because Chapters 7, 8 and 11 are just that big. So Treck over Garret seems fine to me.

Lilina over Ogier and Raigh seems fine to me too. Although it's not because of Bolting crap, that's really not very relevant in a real playthrough given the absurd benchmarks that are required in order to make any of these tricks matter in ways that Cecilia could not contribute to. It's simply because Lilina has realistically possible training opportunities that don't screw you over as much. Ogier is too slow to double most Isles enemies, and does worse damage than Lilina against many of them due to his terrible base strength. He gets weighted down by steels too, and can't even use C rank swords for a long time. Lilina at least has pretty accurate and reasonably damaging attacks from range, so feeding her kills in the Isles, even if you're not rigging her, isn't frustratingly difficult. In training her, you get surprisingly similar results to Lugh, which whilst not great (or worth it at all), it's something. Raigh joins way too late at at much too high a level to actually get trained easily, and he lacks the anti-air capabilities of the other two Mages, meaning he's got even less of a niche. Sure there's Nos, but considering he's probably not doubling, it's hardly that good.

----------

I think Barth doesn't deserve to be in the utter shit tier because no matter how shit he is, he won't die if looked at funny and can actually hurt enemies. Wendy and Sophia can't even fufill this requirement.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Irysa

[Ardan]

This is one that took me a while to really conclude, but after some thinking I'm surprised no one else has challenged Barth to Bottom Tier.

thats because grandjackal no longer uses these forums.

[Gradivus.]

The second Ring is generally better off sold frankly, similar to the second Hero Crest.

I think that's an iffy argument, you're likely to have enough money for your shopping needs in midgame considering you can grab treasure in C12 and C12x without much opportunity cost and can get a lot of gold from C16 (and arguably 20 on either route), as well as odd stealables, to sustain your cash for statboosters. In general, I don't see the 1 1/4 boots you're losing out on as more important than the benefits a unit can get from promoting, as long as the unit in question isn't superfluous due to the team composition.

[Irysa]

Thats the point, those units are superfluous because they dont really have a notable impact on efficiency unless you asssume some kind of highly suboptimal team, which doesn't seem reasonable. It instead seems to make more sense to think about how each unit fits into already solid team compositions. I agree that it's not like you benefit THAT much from selling them, but you definitely don't benefit very much from promoting them either. You simply do not need so many second string infantry combat units in this game.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Irysa

[-Cynthia-]

I'd probably go Marcus>Rutger>Percival myself. I don't think Percival can ever quite match the turns/reliability saved of earlygame Marcus or Rutger's midgame bosskills. He's useful, but more replaceable IMO.

I think Lance>Alan because not hitting speed benchmarks is generally worse than not hitting strength but eh. I still don't get Zealot>the cav duo, they have 6 chapters of pretty substantial usefulness over him and whichever one promotes is better or equal to him.

I'm pretty iffy on Gonzales too, I'd rather have Lugh's early chip or Chad's money most playthroughs than an inaccurate infantry unit that can't double most things at base and is hard to ferry.

[XeKr]

If Marcus > Rutger/Percival, then I’m fine with Allance > Zealot. iirc, we had this discussion in another topic but it has to do with how contributions are valued depending on team size and how forced deployment plays into it (extreme case, Edward).

I think I prefer not to assume more optimal/solid teams as there’s a slope effect where characters are good because they work well with “high tier” units but those units are “high tier” in large part because they work well with (or often, are less obsoleted/outclassed by) characters that are good (“high tier”).

Is FE9!Jill, a 2nd flier, as superfluous as these Hero Crests/Guiding Rings? Are Rody/Cecille/Ryan/Draug superfluous because of Luke?

I don’t feel that strongly about it as I think we usually try to reasonably balance this line of thought but imo it’s messier than assuming non-specific teams.

[Irysa]

I think I prefer not to assume more optimal/solid teams as there’s a slope effect where characters are good because they work well with “high tier” units but those units are “high tier” in large part because they work well with (or often, are less obsoleted/outclassed by) characters that are good (“high tier”).

Is FE9!Jill, a 2nd flier, as superfluous as these Hero Crests/Guiding Rings? Are Rody/Cecille/Ryan/Draug superfluous because of Luke?

That comparison doesn't really fly. I've already just made an argument for Sue being more relevant, and Noah is considered relevant as is. Both of these units are outclassed by other rival units, but we still think they're good because they function acceptably if trained and generally are beneficial to have around if trained and promoted. The same goes for the FE12 units you listed - training at least one (well, minus Cecille, she is kind of iffy unless you rig her HP/Def so she doesnt get oneshot...) of those units is highly beneficial, training two is less beneficial but not bad, training three starts to hurt you more than it helps.

Training Fir/Gonzo/Lugh only seems like it will actually increase efficiency significantly if your team is notably suboptimal, as in, over 2/3 of your team is comprised of people below mid tier, or everyone in high tier got stat screwed badly (and even then, Zealot and Marcus are pretty RNG proof, and even 0% growths Noah and Rutger are useful). In theory, Gonzo and Lugh detract a bit from efficiency because of the extra effort that must be taken to ferry Gonzo to combat or keep Lugh alive, wheras Fir is easy to transport has low chances of death along with 60% chances to ORKO most enemy Fighters at base. This does not seem to be something that should be weighted considerably, thus mid tier seems appropriate.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Irysa

[XeKr]

My point is that it’s arbitrary to say a team is too suboptimal to be relevant for tiering if 2/3 of it consists of midtiers or lower. What about 5/9? What about 2/3 of midpoint uppermid or lower? Etc. This can be analyzed with a weighted system but I think there's considerable fuzziness in how to allocate those weights. It's even more blurry since who lies in which tier position is not set in stone in the first place.

Still, I concede that argument for Gonzo/Lugh, but Fir only requires a single unit, Rutger, be either stat screwed or not in play.

Edited March 5, 2016 by XeKr

[Irysa]

I think assigning some kind of weighting towards decent teams at least seems intuitive though no? It's not so much assuming that higher tiers are in play so much as assuming that the circumstances wherein Gonzales or Lugh become some of your best combat units are not going to be common because there are so many other units that have better combat in some manner or other.

In Fir's case it's true I noted a few circumstances she could fill in above, but the stat screwage thing on Rutger is pretty damn unlikey. He only needs to gain 3 points of speed in like 9 or so levels at a 50% growth rate. Considering if Rutger IS being used he's almost certainly taking bosskills, these level estimates are not unreasonable. As such, this scenario does not seem relevant enough to be heavily weighted (for comparison's sake, Fir would be expected to gain 4 points of speed in about the same amount of levels -maybe add another one or two if she makes it to promote in time to fight two bosses after promotion- at only a 5% higher growth rate)

I take your point to Rutger simply not being used though. It's unlikely that Dieck or Lance can reach the desired speed benchmarks for the 12x boss, and they are the next best options, so training Fir in a playthrough without Rutger should practically always increase efficiency by a noticable amount. I think it does beg the question of how "assumed" Rutger is though, but I feel like that's hard to answer. Combinations of Dieck, Marcus and Zealot can all manage without Rutger, but the loss of Rutger's Killing Edge as an item limits their ability to compare to him favorably, so it is a bit of an odd situation where one must slow down to recruit Rutger, despite not aiming to use him.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Irysa

[Espinosa]

Even if I had a really strength-screwed Rutger, I probably wouldn't consider training Fir all the way from lv. 1. Her strength procs are even less reliable, and assuming Rutger's been trained his other stats make him more than usable even if he will fall short with ORKOing bosses more often.

I do agree that each tier list should be flexible and sorta be of use to drafters, who have a diverse army from various tiers of the rankings, if for no other reason than drafters forming a sizeable percentage of the people who care to debate character tiers. It is also applicable to players who "just use who they like" for storyline purposes or looks or whatever. The player likes Dieck, Clarine, Gonzalez and Lilina, but not all of them are equal in competence (d'oh).

[Irysa]

Fir gets +3 strength on promotion so her 5% lower strength gain is somewhat moot. She has something close to a 67% chance to ORKO enemy Fighters with the Wo Dao, and faces True Hitrates of about 10%, and is always 2HKO'd. She also gains something close to 70 EXP per kill for about 4 levels, then about 50 for the remaining 5, so leveling her up to promotion is not difficult at all. The problem with Fir is that she's not relevant in any playthrough where Rutger is around unless he is very stat screwed.

And regardless, it's not a strength problem, or an ORKO problem. Rutger can be expected to reach A Swords by 12x, and with that along with two str procs and a promotion, he ORKOs Gelero assuming he crits at least once. Even with 0 str procs it's very close to an ORKO, to the point where any other sword user could probably come in for the kill. If Rutger has gained just a few points of strength then he is also likely to ORKO with the Wo Dao or the KE, as Gelero has like 5 luck in the face of his probable 70 to 80% critrate. At worst, the boss should die in 2 rounds of combat.

Rather the problem is SPEED. If Rutger fails to reach 19 AS then he won't double, and that makes the boss dramatically harder to deal with. Fir has an even better speed growth than Rutger and gains 2 Speed on promotion instead of 1 (although her base is 2 points lower). But as I've said, it is rather unlikely for Rutger to fail to reach 19 Speed in 9 or so levels.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Irysa

[Espinosa]

Yeah, but is Fir really catching up with Rutger in level in such a short span of time? Agreed that the strength growth isn't a big area of discrepancy, but you can't really count on Fir to have better stats than Rutger.

[Irysa]

Rutger is likely promoting at level 10 or 11, then likely gains about 2 to 3 extra levels after promotion before 12x. That's a total of 9 or 10 levels. Fir has to get 9 levels to promote anyway. Even if one opts to move quickly through Chapters 10 and 11, and not wait to recruit the later units, she should still be able to promote in time because she can be exposed on Enemy Phases relatively safely.

I don't understand what you mean by "you can't count on Fir to have better stats than Rutger". Fir has worse averages than Rutger, but the scenario is present that Rutger has already gotten poor levelups, or is not even being used at all. If for example, Rutger has failed to gain any speed at all by the time you accquire Fir, he would have to proc speed 3 times consecutively on all the subsequent bosskills he'd be using to try to get to 19 AS. Since levelups are all independant, there is only a 12.5% chance of this occuring at that point. Comparably, Fir has something like a 83% chance to gain at least 4 speed in 9 levels. Sure, this scenario is unlikely, but at that point, it is statistically more favorable to start training Fir.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Irysa

[XeKr]

I think assigning some kind of weighting towards decent teams at least seems intuitive though no? It's not so much assuming that higher tiers are in play so much as assuming that the circumstances wherein Gonzales or Lugh become some of your best combat units are not going to be common because there are so many other units that have better combat in some manner or other.

In Fir's case it's true I noted a few circumstances she could fill in above, but the stat screwage thing on Rutger is pretty damn unlikey. He only needs to gain 3 points of speed in like 9 or so levels at a 50% growth rate. Considering if Rutger IS being used he's almost certainly taking bosskills, these level estimates are not unreasonable. As such, this scenario does not seem relevant enough to be heavily weighted (for comparison's sake, Fir would be expected to gain 4 points of speed in about the same amount of levels -maybe add another one or two if she makes it to promote in time to fight two bosses after promotion- at only a 5% higher growth rate)

I take your point to Rutger simply not being used though. It's unlikely that Dieck or Lance can reach the desired speed benchmarks for the 12x boss, and they are the next best options, so training Fir in a playthrough without Rutger should practically always increase efficiency by a noticable amount. I think it does beg the question of how "assumed" Rutger is though, but I feel like that's hard to answer. Combinations of Dieck, Marcus and Zealot can all manage without Rutger, but the loss of Rutger's Killing Edge as an item limits their ability to compare to him favorably, so it is a bit of an odd situation where one must slow down to recruit Rutger, despite not aiming to use him.

I agree it’s intuitive to discount or weigh less certain contexts based on probability. For example, Lilina has a tiny chance to actually reach the stat benchmarks she needs, as well as score those crits, so okay it’s not very relevant to her ranking. Similarly as you mentioned, the chance of Rutger being stat screwed is relatively unlikely, so we can weigh that context little as well. Consequently, Fir probably shouldn’t get much credit for that situation (though much more than Lilina’s, still, as it’s much more likely).

Deployment is trickier. We can certainly analyze how Fir facilitates efficient clears, in teams with Rutger (not much), and without Rutger (almost as much as Rutger does optimal/efficient teams, minus discrepancy in turns/reliability training Fir instead). It’s hard, however, to make objective statements regarding how often Rutger is in play.

I think I’ve made the, “weigh contexts by the degree of their efficiency/optimality” argument myself. There’s a few ways to interpret that though.

One way is, Rutger is present on the (known) more optimal teams, so contexts where he is present are more relevant than contexts where he is not. So characters are rewarded for assisting good characters in unique ways, while penalized if obsoleted by them. By how much, depends on how much weight we assign Rutger/whoever’s deployment.

There is certainly a strong tendency for most who discuss this sort of efficiency to predominately focus on the most optimal contexts (and I’m guilty). But with some allowances, like with Jill or the 7th platoon and friends. So we do some handwaving and say it works out nicely such as Jill is about next to Marcia and the FE12 people are fairly close to each other. But Fir is far (3 tiers) from Rutger.

So fine, I’m not going to argue what weights result in making those conclusions self-consistent, I’m sure there’s a way to finesse it (Fir is not as good as Jill is in her game when trained in Marcia/Rutger-less runs, Fir costs more to train, other FE12 characters are far worse off so they don’t deserve in-between spots, etc.)

My actual qualm is this: this line of thinking places too much focus on how much optimal deployment is worth compared to suboptimal deployment. Sure some things are intuitive about this, for example we can say it’s probably less common for Rutger and/or Marcus and/or Zealot and/or Deke to not be in play, than it is for Rutger alone to not be in play, simply because the latter is less strict a condition. Less suboptimal, more relevant, vice versa. (this is why it’s easy to concede the Gonzo/Lugh point)

But as for exactly how likely a given character, say Rutger, is not in play, it can affect another character’s, say Fir’s, position tremendously. If Rutger is very likely (like almost certainly) in play because he’s top tier, then Fir’s contributions are marginal and mostly irrelevant. The less likely he’s in play, the better Fir looks.

And disregarding what’s the actual conclusion lol who cares about Fir, the fact that it works this way frankly takes a lot of focus away from character utility. As in, how are these characters actually facilitating efficient clears?

It turns out though that more efficient contexts are already more important to a character’s contribution. We can argue Rutger has more value than Fir because he’s simply a better bosskiller (statistically more of the time), even assuming a non-specific, generic team. He’s just better than facilitating quick/reliable clears in a combat role (overwhelmingly the role that matters to these characters). This already “weighs” the contexts, and the focus is on the turns/reliability, not how likely certain deployments are. Really, this is evidence that suggested contexts with Rutger are more efficient and relevant, in the first place.

tl;dr, the practical danger is assuming more optimal deployments are more relevant and using that to dominate the analysis (basically the old shove 1 square is unequivocally better than slightly outclassed combat thing), when it’s naturally a consequence of the efficiency analysis already. It only accentuates particular distinctions that are already there, in an arbitrary manner. And can be taken to weird extremes.

(I’ll refrain from calling deployment weights subjective, because whatever model is chosen is, or should be, itself consistent. It’s like when people proposed a turncount or reliability limit to consider for tiering. It’s a hard number that we can objectively compare to, but choosing where precisely is fairly arbitrary. As I’ve advocated, treating tc/reliability as an average arguably works in a cleaner sense. I don’t see a similar clean treatment for deployment slot allocation, except assuming a generic, nonspecific team. I’ll also refrain from discussing other caveats b/c this post is already too long. >_>)

Edited March 9, 2016 by XeKr

[Irysa]

So if I'm understanding you correctly, rather than arguing "Rutger is optimal thus he is assumed thus Fir's potential contributions are worth little", you're advocating for an argument of "Teams without Rutger are so much more inefficient than teams with Rutger, so the combined facts of; 1.the list rewards characters who increase efficiency, and 2. Fir's relevance hinges on the absence (or unlikely stat screwage) of Rutger, therefore mean Fir cannot be given a particularly good ranking"?

If that's the case, then I accept your criticism and will try to phrase myself better in the future.

On the particular subject of Fir though (even if it doesn't really matter) it's also worth noting that Rutger has far more chapters of relevant bosskilling (or assisted bosskilling) contributions than Fir does anyway. In fact, the most important ones (C5 and C8x) are before Fir even exists, and those are two maps where not using Rutger is drastically more inefficient than using him.

[spoiler=Chapter by Chapter analysis of Rutger and Fir]

4 - Only unit that can double the boss, only other unit besides Dieck that can use the Killing Edge. However by the time Rutger appears most of the map is already cleared, and Marcus has relatively good accuracy against Erik with the Silver Lance for hefty damage, so Rutger's relevance is only about average.

5 - Helps to clear the way in a 3 turn, if Rutger is not in play at all, then without RNG abuse, taking the short route becomes difficult/unreliable. Only unit that can double the boss, probably the only unit besides Dieck that can use the Killing Edge (C Swords Marcus is feasible by this Chapter). Without the Killing Edge, this boss becomes a real chore. Rutger's relevance is very high here.

6 - Only unit that can be expected to double the boss. One of three Killing Edge candidates. The boss is relatively fragile so Rutger's relevance is only above average here.

7 - KE doubling against most of the tougher enemies (Cavaliers/Wyverns) is really helpful although Marcus and Dieck have reasonably high chances of doing this too (in Marcus's case, he could be using a Halberd or doubling with an Iron Axe or Silver Lance). Zealot doubles every enemy on the map too IIRC. Due to the throne room reinforcements, it is probably fair to say that Rutger (and Dieck) have less than a 50% chance of helping to kill the boss, as the success rate of base Marcus+Zealot@Armorslayer is 54.6%. Doubling the boss isn't exclusive to him either. Although, it is possible to promote him mid chapter in order to wallop, but somewhat prohibitive given how far out the way the Hero Crest is. Rutger's relevance is high here.

8 - Whilst a Promoted Rutger is one of the most reliable ways to kill the boss (doubles w/Armorslayer, SM crit %), Promoted Lance has a fairly high chance of doubling with the Armorslayer too, with Promoted Dieck having a reasonable chance. The boss is also gangable with Marcus and Zealot also wielding the Armorslayer, although they won't double. Rutger isn't very useful against most of the enemies except possibly Mages. Rutger's relevance is only above average here.

8x - Promoted Rutger is the only remotely reliable way to kill the boss. Rutger's relevance is very high here.

9 - The boss is not hard to hit but is beefy and nobody but Rutger can reliably double him. Rutger also is one of the only units who can ORKO enemies on the map, which is important considering all the chokepoints. Fir join too late to do anything. Rutger's relevance is quite high here. Fir's relevance is low here.

10L - The boss has Nosferatu but is relatively easy to double and frail. Rutger is effective against most of the enemies on the map though. Fir self improves, but she can help with clearing the way. Rutger's relevance is above average here. Fir's relevance is average here.

10E - The boss can be doubled by pretty much anyone who can use the Armorslayer. Rutger isn't that effective on this map due to the abundance of Shamans and Archers. Ditto for Fir, Rutger's relevance is average here. Fir's relevance is below average here.

11L - The boss is quite dodgy and reasonably tanky. Promoted Lance has a reasonable chance of doubling with the KE, Promoted Dieck has a small chance. If one had not promoted Rutger or Dieck, Fir can reach level 10 during this map to promote and fight the boss, but not promoting Rutger earlier is so inefficient that this is not very relevant. Both Fir and Rutger are good against most of the enemies here. Rutger's relevance is high here. Fir's relevance is average here.

11E - The boss is surprisingly fast for a General at this point in the game, so Rutger or Promoted Fir (Elphin route nets you the second Hero Crest earlier) are the only characters who can reliably double him with an Armorslayer. Lance has a small chance, but the boss has a Horsekiller so exposing Lance to him on EP is a bad idea. Rutger and Fir are good against most of the enemies here. Rutger's relevance is high here. Fir's relevance is high here.

12 - Boss is easy to double with any Wyrmslayer candidate, but the reduced accuracy on the Wyrmslayer can be irritating. At any rate, the boss is also easily gangable by Wyrmslayer candidates. He can be more reliably dealt with if the player uses Durandal. Dieck and Rutger are the only characters who can be expected to have reached S Swords by now. Rutger and Fir are both bad against the enemies through the walls but are relatively effective against the Fighter/Warrior troupe near the throne room door. Rutger's relevance is above average here. Fir's relevance is average here.

12x - Only Rutger and Fir have can reliably double the boss. Similar to the C9 boss, the boss is not too hard to hit but is so beefy that doubling drastically improves efficiency. Both Swordmasters are somewhat effective against most of the enemies, although there's a fair amount of ranged combat going on. Rutger's relevance is high here. Fir's relevance is high here.

13 - Both Swordmasters are mediocre on this map. The Lancereaver and Wyrmslayer can help a lot though. They could be used against the boss but a Bow User is a smarter idea. Rutger's relevance is below average here. Fir's relevance is below average here.

14 - Both Swordmasters are mediocre on this map. They could be used against the boss (and are likely the only units who can double him), but it is prohibitive to get them there. They can deal with Wyvern Lords and Manaketes effectively with the Wyrmslayer but this isn't terribly important. Rutger's relevance is below average here. Fir's relevance is below average here. (caveat - if Miledy isn't in play then they may be your only real options for routing the Mercs and Heroes, so they then become above average)

14x - A double warp on Roy and a Swordmaster on allows for a more reliable bosskill than the Boots Killer Lance Flier option. Rutger's relevance is above average here. Fir's relevance is above average here.

15 - Both Swordmasters are mediocre on this map. They fare poorly against the boss, and are only really particularly useful against the Valkyries. Rutger's relevance is below average here. Fir's relevance is below average here.

16 - Both Swordmasters are mediocre here. Narcian can be fought with the Wyrmslayer or Durandal instead of a Bow User, and is probably only doubled by the Swordmasters. However this isn't terribly important given you can exploit his flying weakness easily, but it is worth noting. Both SM's deal with most of the basic enemies pretty well, and can fight the Manaketes, although again, this isn't terribly important. Rutger's relevance is below average here. Fir's relevance is below average here.

16x - The double warp strat once again allows for a more reliable bosskill than the usual alternatives, especially since the boss is quite dodgy. That being said, the boss is beefy to the point where a double critical is likely required for either SM to ORKO, which means there is not nearly as much of a reliability increase in using them here compared to just relying on other mainstays like a promoted Cavalier, Miledy, or Percival. Rutger's relevance is average here. Fir's relevance is average here.

17I to 20Ix - Both Swordmasters preform poorly against Alucard due to his tankiness, and aren't that great vs the enemies either. Against Martel they are slightly more reliable than alternatives, but require extra effort/warp/turns to drop them into boss range, and the terrain is unfriendly towards them against most of the enemies. They're okay against Sigurney but she should be killed by a Bow user anyway, and they don't fare too well against most of the enemies. Both of them are decent against Roartz and the rest of the enemies, but a Promoted Cavalier, Dieck or Percival are all very relevant against the boss too. Against Tick it's much the same. Rutger's relevance is below average to poor here. Fir's relevance is below average to poor here.

17S to 20Sx - Again, bad against Alucard, okay vs the enemies. Pretty good against Monke, probably the best option, okay vs the enemies. Bad against Gel, okay vs the enemies. Decent against Roartz and the rest of the enemies, but not the only relevant choices. The 20X throne gimmick thing makes it a crapshoot unless you attempt to rig for the thrones within range of a flier on turn 1, then warp Roy, but the SMs could be double warped for some 2 turns. Rutger's relevance is average to above average here. Fir's relevance is average to above average here.

21 - Being infantry really stinks on this map. Both SMs would rely on the Wyrmslayer or Durandal to significantly dent most of the enemies, and whilst they fare okay vs the boss, Promoted Alance or Percival is likely a better choice simply due to the fact they have an easier time getting there. Rutger's relevance is below average here. Fir's relevance is below average here.

21x - Okay against the boss (he's pretty tanky), decent against most of the enemies, but strong competition from Paladins. Rutger's relevance is average here. Fir's relevance is average here.

22 - Decent against Zephiel if you trained them all the way up to this point (opportunity cost though). Pretty good against most of the enemies too. Rutger's relevance is above average here. Fir's relevance is above average here.

23 - Decent against the boss if you trained them all the way up to this point (opportunity cost). Have to rely on Wyrmslayer/Durandal against most of the enemies. Rutger's relevance is average here. Fir's relevance is average here.

24 - Decent, but lack of canto hurts a lot. Neither SM is going to be any better than like, Karel on this map besides the fact they could have used some boots earlier. Rutger's relevance is below average here. Fir's relevance is below average here.

Final - lol

That's a really long way to say that aside from a few situations in Sacae, Rutger and Fir don't really have high relevancy after 12x unless you keep using them when they're mediocre all the way to endgame, and even then they're generally kinda subpar compared to the alternatives. Note that Rutger's C5, C7 and C8x contributions are the biggest standouts, with 8x being the absoloute peak. Fir is not even around at this time at all, and really only has a shot of being notably useful against 1 to 3 bosses in the entire game. So it's important not to presume that because Fir can replicate Rutger, she deserves to be higher, because realistically, she can only replicate about 1/3 (maybe 1/2 if we're being generous) of Rutger's contributions.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Irysa