FE6 HM Tier List

[Colonel M]

I'm not really sure how to feel about dancers, to be honest.

Is it just me though, or do archers just kill all discussion?

Nobody really likes using them. They're that low for a reason I guess.

I'm not sure if I want Sue to rise though. The main problem is that she needs some babying, and I'm not sure how many levels she could honestly grab in an efficient playthrough. A Level 4 Sue has 9.95 Spd with the Level x Growth though, and that doubles the Steel Axe Pirates | Fighters in the isles. Granted, she has about 12 Atk (5.9 + 6), which at least means she 2HKOes when she doubles. Probably needs Steel later on since IIRC they have a spike in HP, but she loses 4 AS from it which is what really sucks. There are Killer Bows lying around though (the only unit that might touch them is Klein or Shin) and there's 2 of them. C Bows requires 25 Kills, and since she's being babied she'll likely get the priority. I guess my biggest qualm would be considering her better than units such as Yodel, who are almost free to use and have certain weapon ranks to help their chances of being fielded. Guess she can nab a Shin support (30+2), sucks that Dayan isn't that great either.

It's possible though. I won't say that it can't be done.

EDIT: Ill look at a comparison later today. IMO she should definitely be higher in Sacae. Not sure about Dorothy and Walt Disney (Sue at least has Movement + Spd to help her out). If she can at least double those Pirates and Fighters it makes it all the easier for her to get CEXP. Sucks that promotion leaves her at E Swords but it might not be wtfterrible in Sacae.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Tyranel M

[grandjackal]

Nobody really likes using them. They're that low for a reason I guess.

Nobody then measured their capabilities. We just assumed no enemy phase therefore suck unless you're psycho powerful like Klein and Shin. It's still not fantastic for Sue and Dorth, but it's decent. Not like I'm arguing them to the same tier, at best it's lower mid.

I'm not sure if I want Sue to rise though. The main problem is that she needs some babying, and I'm not sure how many levels she could honestly grab in an efficient playthrough. A Level 4 Sue has 9.95 Spd with the Level x Growth though, and that doubles the Steel Axe Pirates | Fighters in the isles. Granted, she has about 12 Atk (5.9 + 6), which at least means she 2HKOes when she doubles.

3 large chapters, and she's getting 39-40 exp a kill, you can't get her 3 levels? My ass if that's babying, that sounds more like sandbagging.

In fact, chapter 8 she's already a huge positive. Why? Keeping up with your cavs, and they'd like to avoid counters as they basically rush this gigantic twisting map, as the only healer keeping up with them is Clarine, and one healer's not necessarily getting the job done. If she got 2 speed, she could double soldiers with steel, giving her a good 14 might to work with on them. I believe that would be 12x2 damage.

Probably needs Steel later on since IIRC they have a spike in HP, but she loses 4 AS from it which is what really sucks.

That depends more on her level. 3 1/2 chapters to work with before Shin joins, and a good amount of those she's the fastest leveling thing on your team with 39-40 exp a kill, and I think about 12-13 a hit. 2 kills and 2 hits is a level, or 8 hits is a level. That's a ridiculous leveling speed. It's an assumption, but if level 8 by then, she's only 2 Str and 1 speed under Shin's base (discounting Con), which isn't that shabby. Of course, Shin's leveling faster then and all that, but it's just a comparison for that moment in time.

8 Sue would have 7.1 Str and 12.55 Speed.

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch9.html

Doubles steel axe pirates with steel for 11x2 damage, almost the same with fighters to do 12x2 damage. Doubles hand axers and steel archers with iron, doing 7x2 damage to pirates, 8x2 damage to fighers, and 7x2 to archers. Can do 10 damage to mercs as to reduce the effort needed to kill them, and can do either 9x2 damage or a solid 13 damage to mages. Embaressingly it's not a kill. On the other hand, it also means a frontline fighter doesn't have to eat a blast of magic. Even just hand axers, it allows a BB support level 10 Lance to avoid the counter with Steel (same for Roy), Allen with iron, a simple B offense supported Wade could do so with iron (Lott would need an BB double offense or A Offense B defense).

Later on though, the HP does spike. However, I would feel that it's the speed she needs to double steel axers with steel to keep her offense up (while doubling with iron still isn't too bad. It might not help avoid counters as much, but it does reduce the effort needed to kill an enemy). Her offense on the enemy can still keep up decently, just a bit less so than Shin.

There are Killer Bows lying around though (the only unit that might touch them is Klein or Shin) and there's 2 of them. C Bows requires 25 Kills, and since she's being babied she'll likely get the priority.

It's 3 large chapters I wouldn't think that's hard to do.

I guess my biggest qualm would be considering her better than units such as Yodel, who are almost free to use and have certain weapon ranks to help their chances of being fielded.

Sue's not exactly terrible off the bat. She's not fantastic, but she's not bad enough for me to consider staff utility in a time I could easily be swamped by staffers to be better.

Guess she can nab a Shin support (30+2), sucks that Dayan isn't that great either.

20 AS isn't great? Durably he loses to a level 20/10 Shin by 1 Def and 9 HP. He's not as strong as Shin, but Sue's only 1 STR stronger. All 3 can already double everything in chapter 21, and the only problem Dayan has in doubling is the heroes in chapter 22, which he can just slap on the Miurge and problem solved. It's only 3 extra might over silver, and 5 AS is superficial when you're already doubling. Then there's something he has over both, existing sword rank. He has C, which allows him up to Steel Blades, Killing Edges, Wyrmslayers, Light Brand and Lancereavers(for the greater avoid on the huge number of lances). Then ask yourself how much those two would love the Anima support.

It's possible though. I won't say that it can't be done.

Relooking my numbers over, I at least see a tier difference between Sue and Dorothy, unless Dorothy can manage some sort of huge level lead, which I don't see happening. Like level 10 with Saul B by chapter 9 could do in one shot of steel what Sue would need two shots of iron to pull off, but even then Sue would be able to double steel axers with Steel. I suppose in the deeper parts of the isles, Dorothy's might lead might take a lead, but that's if she has a 2 level lead and a B with Saul by then. Then keep in mind that chapter 7, 8 and 8x is huge, and Sue has the horse.

EDIT: Both can double steel axers easily (and Dorothy's Str lead+Saul lets her do with iron what Sue would need Steel to do), thing is Hand Axers. Dorothy can't nab 13 AS any time soon, but Sue could double them with iron at least. Sue would do 7x2 damage to them with iron, to match that, Dorothy needs to be level 11 with B Saul using Steel.

Basically it's like comparing a myrmidon with a fighter. One does the damage through doubling, the other does damage through one solid blow.

Walt? Again, would depend on his level. If he can manage level 11 by the isles, he'd be pretty similar to Dorothy. Thing is, when Dorothy promtoes with her superior gains, it's when Walt starts losing, as otherwise he can only be similar to. Earlygame forced utility versus actually being better in some ways to prepromotes with a support who actually wants her.

If Walt had access to other supports other than Marcus, he'd have it in the bag.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Dat Nick]

If Sue rises, I'm not seeing her out of Low on either list. She sucks less than Walt, whoopie, it's not exactly hard to suck less than dog shit.

Edited March 10, 2010 by s Portsman

[Narga_Rocks]

If Sue rises, I'm not seeing her out of Low on either list. She sucks less than Walt, whoopie, it's not exactly hard to suck less than dog shit.

She should consistently have +1 bow rank on Shin, though. Not that it makes her better or anything, but when he's using steel she's using killers. When he's using killers she's using the brave (or can, at least. With only 30 uses you'd obviously not want her to use it much). When he's using the brave she's using silver. Also, her wind is giving him mt (eventually, and only +1). I suppose Klein appears and wrecks everything for her since he starts with A bows and a lot more str, but she's still able to use better stuff than Shin. And she probably should be a tier up on Walt and Dorothy simply because of the mount (and having a better spd growth. 2 less con is irrelevant when she starts with 2 more spd than Dorothy and has a much better growth and iron doesn't weigh her down anyway). Rescuing and being able to keep up with Alan and Lance. She could even help them cart Roy around so that they don't both lose their player phase. And when they aren't doing that she can attack something and leave it weakened enough for them to KO if they can't. And she won't just be chipping because lots of units don't KO on enemy phase either, so sometimes she'll be finishing those off.

When your durability is at Sue's level, it's an advantage to have 2 range only (since your enemy phase would suck regardless), not a disadvantage. Her 2 range should be more reliable than someone tossing a javelin or a hand axe. Also, her Shin support is building accuracy. It's too bad Shin isn't wind or fire.

[Colonel M]

If Sue rises, I'm not seeing her out of Low on either list. She sucks less than Walt, whoopie, it's not exactly hard to suck less than dog shit.

I disagree. While it might not exactly be possible, I think she could go over some of Low Mids.

Speaking of Lower Mid, I'm considering re-arranging some of it. I dunno if I agree to Geese > Garret for starters, and I definitely think Hugh should go up as well.

As for the reply to the whole Wendy vs Sophia crap, the reason I didn't want to go into using them as serious units was because of determining when they would hit what level. While the Guiding Ring is definitely an advantage, I still admit her combat is not so great (early promo barely passes), so she's stuck with Healbot. Either way, I don't mind defending myself with Sophia > Wendy (though it seems most of the public agrees), but I used the Guiding Ring because I was, atm, assuming using them as dirt utility units and that Wendy's 4 Mov makes the team drastically change their strategy without rescuing her. I'm not going to buy the tier difference atm (despite how I completely disagree that finding the Guiding Ring is like recruiting a character, it could be somehow argued as storyline and blahblah), but I might do so if it can be proven that Sophia can hit Level 10 or w/e at a reasonable time. Though, I prefer not to re-open that can of worms.

[grandjackal]

If Sue rises, I'm not seeing her out of Low on either list. She sucks less than Walt, whoopie, it's not exactly hard to suck less than dog shit.

Garret has about 10 Def and 55 HP walking into Sacae. Nomads do 18 damage, they have 19 AS to his 11. 8x2 damage, 4RKO. 13 luck to their 18 crit, while they double. 16/1 Sue pulls off the same durability, minus the whole double crit attempts and a Shin support to negate crit entirely.

Garret's got 38 base hit. Hand axes are 50 hit. Nomads have about 46 avoid. This means that Garret's got 42 displayed on them. 16/1 Sue B Shin and a killer bow has 125 hit, an A makes 130. That's 79-84 hit. She'd have about 20 might, 21 with Shin support. Either way, a crit would insta-kill a nomad, using the average nomad stats I showed earlier, therefore Sue's offense is better on the basis that she can just hit the enemy.

This is 16/1 Sue, and she makes a lower mid character look stupid. Now if she were something like, let's say 20/2, Garret is fucked because Sue with Shin support would actually be 5RKOd.

That's just nomads, I could have brought up how the second largest enemy groups are sword users (nomad troopers, swordmasters), or that Sue's 20/2 avoid with Shin is 63 which puts nomads to coinflips and therefore boosting Sue's durability lead further on Garret indirectly.

If this were Ilia? Sure, I would buy Sue being worse than Garret (I still wouldn't see her with the likes of Cath and Hue though). Sacae? I think there's a severe underestimation going on here.

EDIT: Geese at promotion is already more durable than Garret, even in Sacae. 46 HP and 13 Def is 5RKOd by nomads, as opposed to Garret's 4RKO. Geese needs 1 speed to avoid being doubled by nomads, doubling his durability. Ilia, 14 AS doubles steel pegs so that he doesn't need to rely on crits to kill jokes. Geese doesn't get doubled by wyvern lords in Bern, etc. You could argue the effort makes Geese a problem, but he does end up better in the end.

Explain yourself with Hue.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Cait Sith

[dondon151]

A mount alone makes Sue a decent filler choice for deployment, though I probably wouldn't rank her as a top pick anywhere. But assuming that she gets a little bit of EXP investment, I would definitely use her over someone like Treck, because her damage is more reliable and safe than his (not saying anything about their tier positions though).

[Narga_Rocks]

Just out of curiosity, would anybody buy Sue getting a C Roy? Roy is basically getting BB Alan Lance, right? He needs a C from somewhere.

Lilina is probably almost never fielded (just to recruit a couple units).

Marcus is probably getting dropped eventually. Even if you want to argue early C until he gets dropped, you could just kill him off. This isn't the ranked list.

Wolt is worse than Sue.

Cecilia is a maybe, I suppose. She's low enough that she's not likely to be used most of the time, but she is actually fast (20 turns to C).

Then there is the 1/1s.

Sofiya is in the graveyard (and appears later).

Sue.

Thany is a possibility, I suppose. She might also be carrying Roy from time to time but she has a lot of other faster options that may be fielded.

Lalum appears later than Sue and also we know the issues supporting dancers. Especially with a 1/1.

And Sue gives him +1 mt and +5 crit (and +5 acc). Sure, maybe he'd like the +avo from Lalum or Sofiya, but I think that +1 mt is good too.

Also, if she is going to help with the carrying of Roy then that could make the 1/1 easier to swallow.

I suspect that the 59 turns it takes might make this harder to swallow, though. Still, it makes Sue BC Shin Roy:

+2 mt, +1 def, +15 acc, +7 avo, +10 crit, +15 cev.

That's not bad.

And Roy gets +5 mt and +20 crit instead of +4 mt and +15 crit (or 17 crit if he finds a C that is fielded).

[grandjackal]

Well, let's see. Sue has 10 chapters to build said support before Cecilia shows up. If every chapter takes an average of 11 turns, ive or take a few, that's about 110 turns. That's plenty of leeway, especially since some chapters you want to transport Roy (Chapter 11 comes to mind instantly), so that when he's dropped he can give his bonuses to the cavs.

It's a nice C, but it's probably not happening till quite later. But let's compare the bonuses.

Cecilia: 1 ATK, 2 hit, 2 crit, 5 avoid, 2 crit avoid

Sue: 1 ATK, 5 Hit, 5 Crit, 2 avoid, 2 crit avoid

Not even that big a difference. I would also think Sue puts that 1 ATK to much better use.

Now, who wants Shin in High? 2 range argue all you want, he's helping people avoid counters which means I require less healing. With steel, he's packing 18 might which can double steel axers for 13x2 damage (reducing them to 11 HP). Even just iron, that's 10x2 (17 HP). He ORKOs mages, and can do a solid chunk of damage on mercs to reduce the effort needed.

Then his leveling speed. The average level is about level 11. 13-12 exp a shot, 50 exp a kill at the start. 2 kills, he's already leveled. This makes it so not only is he getting faster at a greater rate, he's able to keep his Str up while doubling with steel. Basically already starts great, only gets better.

Let's fastforward to 20/1. 18 Str, Sue gives him 19. Iron swords are 5 might, that's 24. Pegs have 6 Def and 32 HP. Even with WTD, he's ORKOing. While he might not want to do this all the time (51 displayed hit on him with steel outside of terrain with Sue, they 4RKO him), it does give him a way to build up sword rank. Hits D, he has armorslayers for those damn generals (it would be his strongest weapon on them), and gets Steel so his counter doesn't suck so hard for Bern.

Sacae...Do I even need to explain why he murders Sacae? With Sue, he's 8RKOd, and he's actually capable of doubling nomads. I rest my damn case.

In Bern, very few are doubling heroes without taking a counter (with silver, he'd be doing a whopping 19x2 damage, reducing them to 14-18 HP, that's insane, and furthermore could ORKO them witha crit), and the same goes for Wyvern Lords except he flat out kills him (as would Sue, A Silver bow and doubling is all you really need to get that job done). Brave Bow, he could actually ORKO those heroes (33 damage minus 17=16, 16x4=66, overkill of at least 8 HP). There's plenty I could go on with, but I won't bother.

If we're to accept Shin's perfectly fine at his start, I don't see him in league with Marcus and Thany, especially if we go Sacae. Shin from start to finish never has a bad period. Thany has crap durability early on with bad offense later on as helpful as her flier utility is, Marcus gets dropped eventually. What's Shin's problem? Lack of 1 range? Perhaps that's a problem, but I think your frontliners would love not having to take counters. Is that not it's own utility?

In the least, is high tier reasonable for Shin in Sacae?

Edited March 10, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, let's see. Sue has 10 chapters to build said support before Cecilia shows up. If every chapter takes an average of 11 turns, ive or take a few, that's about 110 turns. That's plenty of leeway, especially since some chapters you want to transport Roy (Chapter 11 comes to mind instantly), so that when he's dropped he can give his bonuses to the cavs.

It's a nice C, but it's probably not happening till quite later. But let's compare the bonuses.

Cecilia: 1 ATK, 2 hit, 2 crit, 5 avoid, 2 crit avoid

Sue: 1 ATK, 5 Hit, 5 Crit, 2 avoid, 2 crit avoid

Not even that big a difference. I would also think Sue puts that 1 ATK to much better use.

Of course a C isn't happening until pretty late. I'm aware of that. It takes 45 turns to get Sue and Shin to a B and Sue has ~3 extra chapters (she's probably not going to 8x and its 10 deployment slots, though maybe) to work on Roy, but I was assuming she'd get a C Roy around the same time she gets a B Shin. In fact, that's around 5 turns a chapter before Shin shows up, so maybe that's too much and she'd get C Roy after B Shin.

Anyway, it takes 20 turns to get Cecilia, so to keep it even Sue has to get 39 turns before Cecilia shows up. I'm thinking C Cecilia would happen first, but you'd have to actually want to use Cecilia for that to matter. The 3 avo might be worth more than the 3 crit, though. Not sure. Also, what's Roy's hitrate like? Does the extra 3 get him to 100%? As long as he isn't consistently pulling 100s, which I doubt he is, the +3 hit combined with the +3 crit might be worth something more than +3 avo, even if it is only a bit.

However, given that Sue will frequently be packing killer bows, I should think giving the +1 mt and +5 crit to Sue pays off more than giving the support to Cecilia. BC Shin Roy means she has skill/2 + 40 crit. Since enemy luck is quite low, that gives her a pretty good chance to crit stuff, and since she doubles so much that means she kills over 60% of what she attacks when using killers.

[grandjackal]

Luck among the enemy is actually rather moderate. It's not wtf high like RD, but it's existent unlike in FE7.

As for Roy, lessee. 20 Roy with BBC Lance Allen and Sue has 57 hit. With an iron sword, that's 142. He'd have 96 displayed on nomads, and they're insanely high with avoid.

To give clear stats, Roy with a killer edge and supports would have 25 might, 137 hit (91 displayed), and 57 crit (which would amount to about 49-48 on nomads, possibly more on enemies with less luck)

It's not 100, but it's close enough.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Narga_Rocks]

Luck among the enemy is actually rather moderate. It's not wtf high like RD, but it's existent unlike in FE7.

As for Roy, lessee. 20 Roy with BBC Lance Allen and Sue has 57 hit. With an iron sword, that's 142. He'd have 96 displayed on nomads, and they're insanely high with avoid.

To give clear stats, Roy with a killer edge and supports would have 25 might, 137 hit (91 displayed), and 57 crit (which would amount to about 49-48 on nomads, possibly more on enemies with less luck)

It's not 100, but it's close enough.

As long as it isn't 100 before the +3, there is still some value in the acc given by Sue. Thus, I think +3 hit and +3 crit is arguably better than +3 avo. Even if only by an extremely small amount.

[Colonel M]

The support is rather slow, but it's probably possible to see a C sometime near lategame, maybe halfway through Midgame if you stick Roy near Sue enough. I mean even Serra can nab some of her C supports later in the game and Sue nor Roy are really begging for anyone else on their lists.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Narga_Rocks]

The support is rather slow, but it's probably possible to see a C sometime near lategame, maybe halfway through Midgame if you stick Roy near Sue enough. I mean even Serra can nab some of her C supports later in the game and Sue nor Roy are really begging for anyone else on their lists.

Yeah, I'm not saying like chapter 12 or anything crazy. I have no idea just when this C would happen. 59 turns is a pretty long time. I'm just saying that she'll probably get it eventually, and it's not like they have any better options that will get in the way of doing this. It's a "might as well" thing, even if it takes until chapter 18 or something. As great as it would be if they were a 10/+2 or something nice like that so that she could get the +1mt, +5hit, +5crit earlier, getting it in chapter 18 is better than never getting it.

Question, how does Sue compare to Lilina for damage? They are both effectively player phase only, though at least in some maps (like chapter 12) Sue can get some enemy phase in. Doubles forever (I suppose not at first, though), killer bow access, 7 move, rescuing. Those are some pretty big advantages, and Lilina starts with a mere 13 mt with a 20 use weapon that can't be replaced for a while. Without it she drops to a 6 mt weapon and 11 mt with 75% growth.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Question, how does Sue compare to Lilina for damage? They are both effectively player phase only, though at least in some maps (like chapter 12) Sue can get some enemy phase in. Doubles forever (I suppose not at first, though), killer bow access, 7 move, rescuing. Those are some pretty big advantages, and Lilina starts with a mere 13 mt with a 20 use weapon that can't be replaced for a while. Without it she drops to a 6 mt weapon and 11 mt with 75% growth.

Good sir, she starts with 11. However, looking at chapter 8...

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch8.html

Would say Sue's level 3, but that's at the start of the chapter. Considering she's getting nearly 40 exp a head and 12-13 exp a shot, level 4 or even 5 is possible by the time you get to Lillina.

If so, Sue would have 11 might with iron, 15 with steel. If she's indeed level 5, she's doubling soldiers no matter what they have equipped with steel, doing a painful 13x2 damage, reducing them to 9 which I'm sure anyone could avoid the counter on. Lillina would only do 9 with Thunder, something Sue does with basic iron (except the whole doubling thing). 10 damage to archers. This is a bigger problem for Lillina, due to her 16 HP and 2 Def with 4 AS. If they have iron, they simply ORKO her. If they have Steel, they OHKO her. Again, only for 9 damage. Lillina luckily does 9 damage to armors where Sue only does 2x2. However, Sue does 11 damage to mages where Lillina does only 1, or worse off 0 damage if she's using fire or they proc'd Res.

Let's fastforward to chapter 9. I'll say Lillina and Sue are equal levels of level 8. Lillina's got 16 might with thunder, Sue's got 16 with Steel. Sue's got 12.55 Speed, Lillina's got 6.45

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch9.html

As a note, if Sue procs that speed, she doubles all steel axers. Which case, she would do 11x2 damage to pirates, 12x2 to fighters, where Lillina would do 15 to pirates, 14 to fighters. Sue could do the same with the steel archers, doing 11x2 damage to Lillina's 16-14 damage. Mercs, Sue would do 10 damage to Lillina's 13. Sue maybe doubles mages with iron for 9x2 damage, Lillina only does 7. To hand axers, Sue needs iron and would be doing 8x2 damage to fighters, 7x2 to pirates.

So Sue has more wins aside from mercs and hand axers, where the damage isn't so hugely in Lillina's favor.

Defensively, Lillina has 19.15 HP and 2.7 Def. Sue has 21.85 HP and 5.7 HP. Lillina could be OHKOd by steel axers and ORKOd by mercs. Sue does not have to deal with this. Neither should be taking the shot, but at least with Sue I'm still a bit more free with my placement.

This is however if I got Lillina 7 levels in 1 and 1/4 a chapter where Sue had a whole 3. Both are leveling fast, but Sue just has more time to justify that sort of leveling.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Narga_Rocks]

Good sir, she starts with 11. However, looking at chapter 8...

Elfire. That's why I said 20 use. Yes, I was assuming she gets to take it away from Lugh despite how he's probably doubling and putting it to better use by the time he has C rank. And then you don't get another until chapter 13.

"Without it she drops to a 6 mt weapon and 11 mt with 75% growth."

Which is when she uses Thunder instead of Elfire. (Elfire is in the first chest room in chapter 8, so you get it before you get Lilina)

Edited March 11, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Well, speaking of Lou, that depends on what level he would be at the start of the isles. Level 10, he'd have 10 AS and 7 magic. This is 15 might, and looking at stats he wouldn't be ORKOing anything with it. You might as well just slap Thunder on him for the extra crit.

EDIT: DAmmit Narga, don't just ninja me!

As a note, that C is 1 turn for Roy, for +1 ATK, 5 Crit and 5 hit. Better than nothing.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Cait Sith

[-Cynthia-]

I've been pulling for Shin for High, at least in Sacae, if not Ilia, for a while now. He's pretty decent at base and is one of the few characters in the game consistently doubling just about everything. Bow lock isn't bad in FE6, he's accurate and avoids counters, and can be pretty decent with swords post promotion.

[grandjackal]

It makes me ask. Does anyone see bowmanship as a form of utility? I'll outline it in the smallest form.

Chapter 1, Allen's got 7 Str, 12 might with a sword, 13 might on fighters.

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch1.html

He does 10 damage to fighters. Walt has 9 might. He does 6 damage. It works like this, Allen counters, Walt chips, Allen kills. This allows a kill with only 1 attack attempted upon us, without the requirement of Marcus. Now anyone else could have done that damage, but anyone else would have taken a counter.

Let's take it another step, a glimpse into the future.

Chapter 10

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch10a.html

Level 10 Dorothy with B Saul with Steel does 13 damage to the fighters. Lance at level 11-13 with an iron sword with B Allen can now kill this. It would not avoid the counter, but anyone else would have had to take the attack, be it whoever attacked it first before Lance, when Lance attacks after Dorothy, or on the enemy phase when they were drawn in. Which brings me to the counter. If the enemy was drawn in by let's say a level 10 Ward with an iron axe. He would do 15 damage to these fighters. Dorothy could just whip out iron (9 damage) and then Ward could kill on player phase. This again is lessening the effort needed to bring down an enemy. Of course, if we let Lance counter, he could kill on the player phase, but then again anybody could. Dorothy could snipe that kill and let Lance (and others) move ahead to do better things. However, not everyone doubles like Lance, and so she improves the performance of those who can't.

Why did I use Dorothy instead of Sue as an example? Level 10 Sue has 7 Str, 13 speed. 5 Con however reduces the speed of steel by 4, so that's 9, which do not double the 6 speed steel axers. She would only do 11 damage with steel, so let's revert to iron. That's 12 might, which means she does 7x2 damage to them...Which is 14 damage. Dorothy might not be able to double them with iron, but then again she doesn't have to.

However, the use is quite simple, and I got sidetracked. It has been said that the use of bows is to avoid counters, when we never really thought about how that is measured or could be specified. Avoiding counters is rather vague, and unclear. Rather, the reduce the effort needed on player phase as they simplify it. They can do chip be it before an attack as to reduce the manpower needed to take down a unit, can chip after a counter as to easier hand a kill to someone else, or take down a weak unit with small risk to their own health (when they miss, they don't get countered and you're free to let someone else go in for the kill, so your team overall still didn't get hurt), which leaves your other units with better things to do and move forward. It's said anyone else can do this, but more often than not they do it either inaccurately, or at the risk of their own health in case they miss.

Speaking of "anyone else could have done that", let's take Lot. Level 12, B Deick B Thany has about 19-20 might. 1-2 more damage, and with 73 Acc, as opposed to Dorothy's 95. Lott has 59 displayed on steel fighters, 53 on hand axers, as opposed to Dorothy's 81-75 displayed. I'd enjoy not having to rely on coin flips as often, not to mention that this can ignore the weapon triangle, which proves to be troublesome on those mercs. They have 34 avoid, which is 61 for Dorothy, but they have +10 avoid on Lot which reduces his down to 29 hit. Then, what if enemies are on terrain? They'd dip him under the 50s, while Dorothy's still not even down to the 50s unless it's the merc.

...Tl;dr, and perhaps unclear. Did it at least get a basic idea out though? I know I can convolute what can be a simple idea, but I just felt I needed to cite specific examples.

[Dat Nick]

Please don't use Lot as an example of every unit with 1 range. Some characters actually have hit percentages.

[Narga_Rocks]

One advantage of Sue doubling with iron, even should she do the same damage as Dorothy's one shot of steel, is that it helps build bow rank quicker. It only takes 25 battles with doubling to reach C. Allow her to kill some weakened things, say maybe 10 enemies, and that's now 20 battles. (10x2 + 10) for what she kills, and 10x2 for the 10 enemies she weakens. 20 battles until she can pull out killer bows and KO half of what she attacks (if she is 4HKOing or better with the killer). Much better than Dorothy getting maybe 15 kills and 20 regular battles. 35 battles to reach C.

@bblade: I think Lot is attempting to use a hand axe. Or at least, I'd assume he is comparing Dorothy at 2 range to some other unit at 2 range. There is no need to compare Dorothy's 2 range to some other unit's 1 range because they have different tasks. The unit with 1 range isn't avoiding counters so it does the enemy phase stuff or it does the finishing blow.

Also, with hit rates being what they are, when having someone finish an enemy it still seems better to take an 80% at 2 range that won't get countered in the event of a miss over an 80% (or even 85%) at 1 range that will get countered in the event of a miss.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Yeah, it was a hand axe. Lance with a javelin's not much better, 63 displayed due to WTA if Roy and Allen are around, take away Roy and we have 56 displayed, 61 on mercs (which is still less than Dorothy if said merc was on terrain when she shot it).

Then you'd also have to trade them out so that their enemy phase doesn't require glasses. A bowman simply makes it that much simpler.

Problem is, how does one measure just how useful this utility is?Because even minimal can help a counter get avoided at times, do we make claim that whoever countered the enemy, if the archer helps the counterer avoid a counter (or how many others could nab the kill)? How does one measure Effort (the required amount of hits for someone to take down an enemy?)? How does this effect mages like Lillina/Ray/Sophia?

[Colonel M]

Don't even assume the Roy support at that point. I got Alan | Lance support by the start of Chapter 4 and still haven't got Roy to support them yet.

Please don't use Lot as an example of every unit with 1 range. Some characters actually have hit percentages.

Only Dieck with Iron really and I guess Marcus that doesn't use Javelin. Even Iron Blade Dieck can have, like, 60 something Hit with WTD in C4 (which happens often) and using the Iron Blade.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Tyranel M

[grandjackal]

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch5.html

Level 8 Allen seem reasonable? I'll assume just C Lance. 17 might with a sword, 18 with WTA on axers, 19 on swordies when he's got his lance out.

Walt's only gotta do 5 damage to these fighters, 2 damage to the mercs to help reduce the effort needed after Allen counters, Walt can do that at base. Walt could be level 6 in comparison, he'd be doing 7 damage with his 11 might against them. Lance has about 7 Str, perhaps 8 at equal levels. With the +1 and Iron lance, that's 15-16 might, +1 on WTA on the mercs. If it's 8 Str by then, Walt's shot reduces the effort.

Wade is packing similar might on axers to Allen rawly at level 6.

He's able to reduce effort for 3 characters on the two most numerous enemy types there, no supports required (not that it would have been possible for Walt to get the amount he needs for a single attack boost, if Roy couldn't even get a C with either cav).

Would count nomads, but that's a bit easier said than done. Walt's 22 HP and 5 Def could survive them (the other nomad's a bit too weighed down), however, the problem is the bow. Nomads would attack anyone else, so all effort reduction would have to happen on enemy phase. Lance's attack at it's simplest does 10 damage to nomads, as would our boy Roy (if a C procs with either one of them before the nomads show up anyways). Walt with his 11 might does 5 damage. Thus, reduces effort needed to take it down.

So let's not jump to conclusions here ;;>> Supports or no, he still makes the player phase here quite a bit cleaner. He could do so even at base (just not for mercs). It sounds like utility to me.

[Dat Nick]

@bblade: I think Lot is attempting to use a hand axe. Or at least, I'd assume he is comparing Dorothy at 2 range to some other unit at 2 range. There is no need to compare Dorothy's 2 range to some other unit's 1 range because they have different tasks. The unit with 1 range isn't avoiding counters so it does the enemy phase stuff or it does the finishing blow.

Lot's still a terrible example to use, because his hit is already bad at 1 range, it's even worse at 2. Use a character with javelins and/or existing skill.