FE6 HM Tier List

[Rodykitty]

It's a rhetorical question. You did in one sentence that paragraphs and paragraphs have failed to accomplish.

[frat_tastic]

Just gonna say, whenever we aren't talking about these "retarded" arguments that get brought up, the tier list goes for a while without any activity. I don't think its quite as much of an issue on this list as it on the FE7 list as this list has, in general, been talked about a lot less, but the point still stands. Quit whining about how nothings getting accomplished. Calling out inconsistencies and discrepancies with the rules of the list are perfectly viable things to talk about.

EDIT: Also, Fox is right. The list should probably move to the top of the post. It is kind of annoying having to scroll through the wall o' text that is the rules and such.

Edited April 8, 2010 by frat_tastic

[Narga_Rocks]

Also, this may have been missed because it was the last post on the page (somehow...I could swear it was at the top when I posted it) so I'll re-post.

I think colonel m is busy right now. I guess I could do it, but I don't really want to edit other people's posts unless there is a violation of some sort. And it's at the top of the page for me. Maybe something got deleted/unapproved which altered the positions you can see? I can't find anything recent, though. Of course, deleted means deleted so I'd only be able to see unapproved posts, but then if something random was deleted then your post should be at the bottom of the last page for me, too.

The solution to the monetary cost of Hugh is... Does it matter? Is it really bad enough that it will actually change his tier position? That is the question that will decide things, not CATS' attempts to alter tier standards every time an issue comes up.

Most character opportunity costs exist, but don't really matter much. The army as a team all works towards recruiting characters, not just the person that talks to him/her.

Well, if it is in the sacae list then a unit like sue can face an extra short bow attack from the nomads there. There are lots of times an extra 7 hp gets you an extra shot. Or lets a unit face a crit from annoying berserkers/swordmasters without being OHKOd as a result. It's quite annoying to have to use light brand on a boss to whittle them down low enough to kill without risking death all the time. Granted on some of them you can do things like forcing them to use their hand axe and then attack at 1 range with a unit now 4HKOd instead of 3HKOd with their stronger weapon.

Also, an extra two move can be most useful at times. Just check out Miledy in dondon's videos. It's quite psycho what she does with 12 move.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Rodykitty]

Just gonna say, whenever we aren't talking about these "retarded" arguments that get brought up, the tier list goes for a while without any activity. I don't think its quite as much of an issue on this list as it on the FE7 list as this list has, in general, been talked about a lot less, but the point still stands.

People need to stop treating lack of activity as a bad thing. It means that people are fine with a tier list and there's no reason to change it. Discussion tend to erupt automatically after some significant discovery or perspective on a character or characters.

[Dark Sage]

It would definitely be up for debate, but there's still the matter of her poor durability. Higher Spd for more avoid would obviously help and getting a support with Gonzales might help, but Lugh still likely beats her in that area pretty easily. Given this game's setup and Lugh's own not-exactly-great durability, I'm inclined to say she'd win for her offense.

Also, this may have been missed because it was the last post on the page (somehow...I could swear it was at the top when I posted it) so I'll re-post.

Except Lilina has a hard time even to get to the place where she can promote. She's also unlikely to be able to promote in Chapter 16 because Clarine, Lugh, Saul, and maybe Ray and Ellen want guiding rings more than Lilina. The argument that Cait Sith and I had revolving around Lilina and Lugh is that even if you put Lilina and Lugh at an equal level, Lugh still beats her badly in durability and in some cases offense (for instance Lilina has 12 AS. Some of the cavaliers have 13 AS and 9 Con. They are armed with Steel Lances. This means Lilina can't even kill steel lance cavs effectively. Poor Lilina).

This may get me warned for flamebaiting, but CATS, I'm tired of you derailing the topic and distracting us from important issues like Shin vs Gonzales (which I am dismayed has STILL not been brought up) to talk about things like Treck's recruitment cost or Sophia>Treck, only for it to turn out that you're just being Devil's Advocate and we spiraled out of what we were talking about for absolutely no good reason.

And before anyone accuses me of being hypocritical by bringing up Hugh and Lilina, I stopped what I did with Hugh. Please CATS, Hugh's probably crying in shame right now. Give up on him.

[Florete]

Except Lilina has a hard time even to get to the place where she can promote. She's also unlikely to be able to promote in Chapter 16 because Clarine, Lugh, Saul, and maybe Ray and Ellen want guiding rings more than Lilina. The argument that Cait Sith and I had revolving around Lilina and Lugh is that even if you put Lilina and Lugh at an equal level, Lugh still beats her badly in durability and in some cases offense (for instance Lilina has 12 AS. Some of the cavaliers have 13 AS and 9 Con. They are armed with Steel Lances. This means Lilina can't even kill steel lance cavs effectively. Poor Lilina).

Uh, yeah, that was a response to:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Lilina was as good at doubling enemies as Lugh is, she would be even more useful than him right?

Things change when someone starts doubling. A lot.

[Don Draper]

Just gonna say, whenever we aren't talking about these "retarded" arguments that get brought up, the tier list goes for a while without any activity. I don't think its quite as much of an issue on this list as it on the FE7 list as this list has, in general, been talked about a lot less, but the point still stands. Quit whining about how nothings getting accomplished. Calling out inconsistencies and discrepancies with the rules of the list are perfectly viable things to talk about.

EDIT: Also, Fox is right. The list should probably move to the top of the post. It is kind of annoying having to scroll through the wall o' text that is the rules and such.

No, actual arguments and propositions are always buried under the massive pointless discussion posts from CATS and co. Case in point: Weapons' post about Cath a few pages back being completely ignored.

This pointless discussion is pretty much entirely why I stopped arguing in tier lists.

[Dark Sage]

Which was why I wanted her lower but meh.

You have to admit, that argument assumed she would even get up to Lugh's level. Otherwise, she'd get slaughtered in like, every map.

There was an arugment about Cath being higher? Please show me. I'm her biggest fan!

Edited April 8, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Narga_Rocks]

Except Lilina has a hard time even to get to the place where she can promote. She's also unlikely to be able to promote in Chapter 16 because Clarine, Lugh, Saul, and maybe Ray and Ellen want guiding rings more than Lilina. The argument that Cait Sith and I had revolving around Lilina and Lugh is that even if you put Lilina and Lugh at an equal level, Lugh still beats her badly in durability and in some cases offense (for instance Lilina has 12 AS. Some of the cavaliers have 13 AS and 9 Con. They are armed with Steel Lances. This means Lilina can't even kill steel lance cavs effectively. Poor Lilina).

RF was talking with the theoretical Lilina that had actual speed, I think. Just picture a Lilina with like 7 base spd instead of 4 and a 50% or 55% spd growth. Now counter RF's post.

(edit: she's already significantly lower than Lugh as a result of the lower spd. I don't think she needs to drop further based on that. To make her drop she needs to be compared to units immediately under her, not those above her by nearly an entire tier.)

This may get me warned for flamebaiting, but CATS, I'm tired of you derailing the topic and distracting us from important issues like Shin vs Gonzales (which I am dismayed has STILL not been brought up) to talk about things like Treck's recruitment cost or Sophia>Treck, only for it to turn out that you're just being Devil's Advocate and we spiraled out of what we were talking about for absolutely no good reason.

Devil's Advocate may not have been the best description I could have chosen. It's more just looking at the list and what we are doing and stating that to be consistent we have to do 2 or 3 other things that nobody in their right mind would do and therefore the things we are doing are wrong. I thought Devil's Advocate may be a reasonable description but I think you are looking at that description and reading into it something I didn't mean. I don't think he's doing it just to troll, but that seems to be your implication.

And before anyone accuses me of being hypocritical by bringing up Hugh and Lilina, I stopped what I did with Hugh. Please CATS, Hugh's probably crying in shame right now. Give up on him.

I'd rather talk about shin v. gonzales, too. Much rather.

@colonel M, sue went up to top of low on the feg sacae list. Do you disagree with her going up? There have been discussions on sue both here and there, but many of them are getting derailed because people keep bringing up beefs they have with the list. I want sue to go up. Above Lilina on sacae, actually, but that didn't happen on feg so I won't ask for it here.

Let's change the topic a bit. How is Cath 3 tiers below the other thieves? Astohl only has 5 1/2 chapters more than Cath while Chad has 5 more than Astohl, yet they are one space apart. Sure Cath's combat sucks, but so does Chad's, and combat is not what either of them should be doing anyway; chests don't attack.

Well, three chests in the game spawn mamkutes. But no, there aren't any mimics in this game (or any fe) that will attack you if you try to open them. Too bad, it would be funny. They should have had mimics in fe8. They had other monsters.

Oh, and astohl does have base C swords and ability to use killers. And a pretty good luck base for avoiding crits. He was pretty good at base level in the desert for attacking one or two things without risking death. I think that's probably why he's so close to chad. Cath will probably beat Chad in every stat unless you gave Chad a lot of levels (in which case he'll beat her in nearly every stat), but that's probably not his most efficient use. But still, the chapter differential and starting at E swords has got to be worth at least a tier difference, probably 2. Maybe 3 is too much, though. Based off the normal way to play, Cath is probably your second best thief once she appears. Chad is probably the worst and completely irrelevant as of midway through chapter 12. I don't think him supporting Lugh is enough to make him better to deploy than Cath. That could be enough to get her to upper mid, though maybe not.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Dark Sage]

RF was talking with the theoretical Lilina that had actual speed, I think. Just picture a Lilina with like 7 base spd instead of 4 and a 50% or 55% spd growth. Now counter RF's post.

(edit: she's already significantly lower than Lugh as a result of the lower spd. I don't think she needs to drop further based on that. To make her drop she needs to be compared to units immediately under her, not those above her by nearly an entire tier.)

I know that, but Cait Sith made an argument comparing her to Lugh, so I countered it. That and I read a lot of debates on Lugh vs Lilina.

Speaking of which, Lilina could drop behind Ray, if she isn't below him already.

Regarding CATS, read his posts over and try NOT to think he's trolling. <_<

[quote name='Narga_Rocks' date='07 April 2010 - 08:20 PM' timestamp='1270689654'

I'd rather talk about shin v. gonzales, too. Much rather.

I'll join in tommorow. I'm too tired to argue about him tonight and I'm going to read

Ashtol's the best thief in HM. But it's too bad he has no good supports. Also Cath extemely impractical recruitment (which may not count against her, I doubt it) and slow supports. Combine that with E swords and low base stats for the chapter (though I may be thinking of NM) and I can see why Cath is where she is. Still, I think she should rise above Lilina, if only because thief utility is something special while chipping is not.

[grandjackal]

I hate tiering thieves, so I won't bother talking about them. On the other hand...

Speaking of which, Lilina could drop behind Ray, if she isn't below him already.

Less time, shakier supports, less accuracy, speed's just as big a problem for him? Yeah, definitely makes sense.

[Florete]

Less time, shakier supports, less accuracy, speed's just as big a problem for him? Yeah, definitely makes sense.

Unless I've got some facts wrong, I believe he has much better durability both concretely and due to Nosferatu.

[Narga_Rocks]

I know that, but Cait Sith made an argument comparing her to Lugh, so I countered it. That and I read a lot of debates on Lugh vs Lilina.

Speaking of which, Lilina could drop behind Ray, if she isn't below him already.

Regarding CATS, read his posts over and try NOT to think he's trolling. <_<

I'll join in tommorow. I'm too tired to argue about him tonight and I'm going to read

Ashtol's the best thief in HM. But it's too bad he has no good supports. Also Cath extemely impractical recruitment (which may not count against her, I doubt it) and slow supports. Combine that with E swords and low base stats for the chapter (though I may be thinking of NM) and I can see why Cath is where she is. Still, I think she should rise above Lilina, if only because thief utility is something special while chipping is not.

Please fix your post. I think all you need to add is a "]". I'll fix it if you don't.

(And Ray is already higher (if only barely) than Lilina on both lists.)

[Salad Utensil]

Unless I've got some facts wrong, I believe he has much better durability both concretely and due to Nosferatu.

Lilina also doesn't reach Ray's base HP until level 17 and base defense until 20/1 nor a quick B level support with Lugh giving him 10 hit and evade. Ray can also insta-promote and be quite service-able as a healer and attacker while only costing a guiding ring, while Lilina has at least 9 levels of chapters where she can get 1HKOed at decent hit rates.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Brighton

[-Cynthia-]

Cath basically has no use. She's inferior to Astohl (Astohl has actually good combat for a while which turns to mediocre, plus better durability). I really don't think any chapters after she's recruited warrant fielding two theives since unit slots are pretty limited on indoor maps. Plus, she might actually suffer some negativity for recruitment since we have to ferry Roy over to her not once, but 3 times (and she runs away towards chests, so it's extra annoying). Im not seeign a situation where Cath is less than entirely redundant.

I do think Sue could move up. She doubles pretty consistently eventually, avoids coutners, no real competition for promo item etc. She could probably move up to the next tier at least (her Str issues do hold her back though).

Talking about Ray, he could go up IMO. Nosferatu tanking is a cool trick, his good Mag means he ORKOS everything he doubles, low competition for Apocalypse etc. His biggest issue is not doubling, but Cecilia/Bartre/Noah/Treck have big issues with this too, might do a more direct comparison later.

[Salad Utensil]

Cath basically has no use. She's inferior to Astohl (Astohl has actually good combat for a while which turns to mediocre, plus better durability). I really don't think any chapters after she's recruited warrant fielding two theives since unit slots are pretty limited on indoor maps. Plus, she might actually suffer some negativity for recruitment since we have to ferry Roy over to her not once, but 3 times (and she runs away towards chests, so it's extra annoying). Im not seeign a situation where Cath is less than entirely redundant.

Well to be fair to Cath, the desert chapter is much easier with more thieves if you want to get all the items in time. And the number of units that will actually be useful are limited since mounts are immediately out and characters with high con might be too hard to rescue anyway so they might not be good choices either, there are high deployments anyway so theres not reason to not bring her to the desert since at the very least she can contribute to more vision in the fog.

[Dat Nick]

his good Mag means he ORKOS everything he doubles

Ray doubles?

Im not seeign a situation where Cath is less than entirely redundant.

I don't see a situation where OJ is less than entirely redundant, you don't see me arguing him down to low.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Narga_Rocks]

Well to be fair to Cath, the desert chapter is much easier with more thieves if you want to get all the items in time. And the number of units that will actually be useful are limited since mounts are immediately out and characters with high con might be too hard to rescue anyway so they might not be good choices either, there are high deployments anyway so theres not reason to not bring her to the desert since at the very least she can contribute to more vision in the fog.

I vote all three thieves + all three fliers. That's just me though. And while Miledy can't pick up Dieck, she can pick up Rutger and all three thieves. Tate + Thany can lug around Dieck.

@bblade: Well, armors, I'm sure. 20 mt with magic doubling can ruin and armor's day. He has a base of 9, yes? It's just to bad he doesn't show up until there are no more soldiers. And if he got 8 or 9 generic shaman levels he'd actually be good. Too bad he's one of like 3 enemies that you can recruit that don't get HM bonuses. Honestly, if Ray, Hugh, and Douglas don't get hard mode bonuses, why does Miledy? Miledy will never ever attack you (just like Ray) and Hugh and Douglas are actually perfectly willing to do so. Miledy even recruits herself.

[-Cynthia-]

Ray doubles?

You have to give him a Speedwing, which gives him the ability on weighed down stuff (Steel Lance! whatevers, other shamans etc.)

I guess you have a point on the redundancy, but I just can't see crediting a character much when she's better off dead than the trouble of recruiting her.

[Colonel M]

Alright, I'm home. Let me explain why I put the rules as is. First off, I re-shuffled the order of the list. I really like the rules at the top because, as it has been proven over time, no one bothers to read them. Anyway, this is done. I'm also sick of the constant mud-slinging going on. CATS took that tier list via election, from what it seemed. It is not his. It is Reikken | Solid | smash | Paperblade, the latter two contributing to only some of it (my belief is that Reikken and Solid contributed most of it, but you can sort of tell the latter two contributed to it because lolMia's position). I did not troll the list because CATS owned it. I could obviously tell that he didn't agree to some of the rules presented (limited resources? what?) and a bunch of other conundrums. This doesn't give him the right to sling mud at anyone else, but needless to say it is not necessary for bblade to do so either.

So instead of playing sideline like others that attempted to draw a line at what efficiency is, etc, I'm going to post what "my opinion is". This does not mean it follows what others believe, but hopefully after I post it you will see why it is difficult to even define it. I'm going to start with the rulesets I had in mind, keeping in mind that I have not implemented what bblade presented to me. I disagree with it to some extent, but instead of just disagreeing, I'm going to explain myself in full depth. I'm not going to discuss the first rule, since this should be nothing more but common sense.

"When Arguing With Units, You Are to Assume The Unit Is Being Used"

Here was how I always assumed a tier list, as followed. I assumed that their position was based on how they contributed to an efficient playthrough after considering their recruitment. Now, I can see why some of the people will jump down on Hugh's throat. It's nothing that is completely inconsistent because it has a secondary cost: gold. Obviously, you cannot erase this so easily. But as I felt, this was how I pictured it: lower tier-like units, when argued, are under the impression that the tier player knows the penalties of using such units. Even the units such as Lot, who many people would say that I'm already playing inefficiently just because "I'm using him". Either way, the point I am making is this: if you are using any of those units as long-term units, you are going to do what you can to get them up-to-speed.

This is kind of why I disagree with Fir > Lot, you could say. Okay, there is no denying that Fir is decent. Good AS base, Wo Dao to help her with kills, etc. Now of course arguing the Wo Dao point with Inui was pointless (he just said there's no Funds Rank in this mode. No shit sherlock). The point I was trying to make is that Wo Dao makes an excellent boss killing weapon, which is why Fir does not exactly have it 100% of the time. Furthermore, I have used up a lot of my Killing Edges just trying to KO Mercenaries in Chapter 11, which otherwise would likely cost me more turns (you're unlikely ORKOing these guys with RUTGAR unless you're using Silver Sword I guess). I also liked the Wo Dao's +5 Crit in trade for +5 Accuracy. Granted that's -5 Accuracy on a throne boss, the increased percentage of critkilling the boss is still significant enough to give it a go. There are also a lot of other conditions. You can admit that Lot is at an offensive disadvantage at times, but you can't deny Fir's defensive advantages, etc. While Lot has, likely, taken kills that he deserved, there are times where it is arguable that Fir is taking kills just to give her kills, that is assuming that you're climbing her 9 levels over the course of 3 chapters (or two I guess), which I find almost impossible without putting a penalty on your other units.

That is merely an example though. With someone like Treck, you're well aware of the opportunity costs and such. The reason that instances such as optimal deployment aren't used against him is because that if it was much of the lower end of the tier list would take a battering. Suddenly Treck vs. Sophia and Wendy doesn't seem as absurd after all. I consider Optimal Deployment an advantage, that is if you're a positive. This is an obvious given. Despite it not being completely optimal to field Gonzales in Chapter 12X, I did it anyway. That slot could have been given to better units, but I chose Gonzales anyway. Now of course, I wouldn't assume that Gonzales is always fielded in instances such as Chapter 12X because the unit slots is pretty low and the goals involved (getting chests, killing Thieves) are not exactly in his favor. You're obviously fielding Rutgar, but you still need a healer (who is likely Clarine but COULD theoretically be Saul | Ellen), anything that is a mount (Mount with Chest Keys > Thief IMO), then the Thief, etc.

For the tl;dr version for the above: I think that recruitment cost, if what we are assuming is what a character contributes after their recruitment, sort of how Vykan worded it in his Tier List FAQ:

-You only account for the contributions a character provides when they are playable. If a character starts off as say, an enemy before being recruited, then the actions that character takes as an enemy will not be held against his/her ranking.

Now in ranks, I don't give two flips of a shit when it comes to penalizing Hugh and Farina since there is an actual rank that is forcing you to follow with the criteria of Gold, and even though you are swimming in Gold in FE7, keep in mind it is not specifically liquid Gold (you are not spending just 20,000 Gold. You are spending 20,000 of your LIQUID funds, which can be used for buying items or using the arena for a unit or two). Especially in Hugh's case, I do not see what is exactly detrimental of 10K. Even though I was placed with about 3000 Gold after Chapter 11 of my second runthrough, keep in mind what I had in funds flying into Chapter 13:

- 2 White Gems, which equate to 20,000 Gold

- 1 Blue Gem, which equates to 5,000 Gold

- 1 Red Gem, which despite what the description says in the translated version it equates to 3,000 Gold.

This is 28,000 Gold, or in my case 31,000 to spend throughout the duration of Chapters 13, 14, 14X, 15, and 16. During that timeframe I get:

- Another Orion's Bolt, which nets me an extra 5,000 Gold. You can likely get 10,000 if you don't use Shin (possible in Ilia Route).

- Another Elysian Whip, which would only be used on Tate or Zeiss. It can be assumed that you CAN sell it (some don't even train Thany like I did anyway), so add another 5,000 Gold here.

- The Silver Card in Chapter 14, which is a double-edged sword for Hugh. While it makes items worth half their cost, it also makes Hugh's 10K worth 20K, which I do admit.

- A Talisman, which to be quite honest I wouldn't value very highly. Like the Secret Book and Goddess Icons pretty much. This can theoretically net you another 4,000 Gold.

- Divine, which requires that we promoted Ellen | Saul to use at this point. They might not always be in play, so this nets 625 Gold.

- 2 more Red Gems, which is 6,000 more Gold.

- A Blue Gem, which is 5,000 more Gold.

- Likely a spare Knight's Crest, which is 5,000 more Gold.

- 5,000 liquid Gold

Accounting the one Orion's Bolt and assuming we aren't using the one Elysian Whip, we have a grand total of 35,625 Gold. Add on to the 31,000 we have and we have a "likely" possibility of 66,625 Gold. Obviously we're going to spend cash on buying items such as Killers in Chapter 13, but for the most part it shouldn't add up to over 20K cash perhaps. Even if you argued that we're using the one Elysian Whip, it is LIKELY that we might have the 2 Orion's Bolts sitting around anyway.

Now we get another Hero Crest within the chapters, so Gonzales's promotion is already covered (or Lot's in my case). From what I have, I only have to buy 1 Hero Crest, or 5K liquid cash to promote my units. In my scenario, at least, I could theoretically recruit Hugh for his 10K's worth, have the second Guiding Ring in check for him, and for the most part not tear me a new asshole funds-wise. The only stat boosters around are Angelic Robes, so if we're using Niime we're probably splashing 4K down the toilet. It's pretty much a "whoopdedoo" situation. I guess I can say that there is likely more than just Niime that want an Angelic Robe (maybe Echinda, but she wants that Body Ring too...), and the other stat boosters aren't around until Chapter 21. During that timeframe:

Ilia has a 36,000 Gold buffer. Sacae has 34,000. If you want to know how I came up with it, simply look at the items you get after Chapter 16 and also include Niime's Eclipse Tome in the equation (which is useless to be honest).

Of course this doesn't completely erase the problem with Hugh: he still costs 10K to exist. However, the ruleset in mind understands that we are paying 10K for him to contribute towards the efficiency, and it allows him to be tiered based on what he contributes to efficiency AFTER being recruited. You can at least deny him stat boosters, which is perfectly acceptable, so long as we still give him the promotional item. Then compare 20/1 Hugh to something like 20/6 Lugh:

Hugh - 33.75 HP | 18.5 Mag | 14.5 Skl | 15.25 Spd | 11.25 Luck | 12 Def | 11.75 Res

Lugh - 32 HP | 17.6 Mag | 19 Skl | 19 Spd | 13.4 Luck | 8.6 Def | 14.2 Res

In Sacae, Lugh's Speed is slightly superflous. Hugh can get doubled by the Nomadic Troopers, but for the most part he is safe from the Nomads. He also takes 8 damage in comparison to Lugh's 10, which is a difference of a 5RKO and a 3RKO. Then we have to factor how much effort we have to put into Lugh to get him to such a level (he's okay midgame, but earlygame? Not so much). Not saying Hugh > Lugh or Hugh up a tier, but in comparison to an Upper Mid unit with different opportunity costs (more levels to more Gold), you can't honestly tell me, with a straight face, that Hugh is oh-so bad. I also think 20/6 Lugh is a bit difficult to assume, but getting Hugh to 20/1 costs 5 Levels so w/e. In Ilia, both are bombing with Aircalibur. 20/1 Hugh has 42 Atk. This obviously fails to OHKO FalcoKnights, but it should OHKO Pegasus Knights safely. It can whiff Wyvern Knights too, but assuming they wield Steel Lance he should be able to double them anyway.

The point I'm trying to make, and I know I am going to get vehemently flamed for it, is that recruitment costs should just be ignored. It makes arguments less complicated than they already are to begin with (lately I feel like I'm doing a research paper instead of an actual comparison) and it prevents things such as recruitment costs for Gonzales (which admittedly still costs a unit slot that could've went to a better unit) and other conjectures. I can also understand being slightly inconsistent with it on Hugh, since his recruitment cost can actually cause some problems if you're not able to manage money well (or have other team combination).

I also value Combat Utility over Growths, but for the most part it doesn't mean Growth unit always loses. I'm going to address something involving that later on.

Regarding to lower tiered units, I assume this: we are attempting to make them somewhat close to the units in the team as best as possible without massive favoritism such as throwing 6 stat boosters on them (like smash does with Astrid vs. Lyre). So long as the cost of taking the item is put into play, obviously. For example, Mia taking Adept in FE10 is pretty safe to assume. There is only one unit that could possibly give her the competition, that being Shinon, who has Enemy Phase issues (and can cause general inefficiency for an Enemy Phase because it requires a Trade in order to pull it off). Mia also has the Wo Dao, atm, to help rig her Adept + Crit procs and a bunch of other absurd things. I still don't believe that a unit such as Titania suddenly gets shut up since she still takes less resources (likely a Speedwing), but you can argue that it has higher competition and then getting her to help her slowplay BEXP requires items such as the DracoShield | Talisman and such (and procing the Str increase). I also can't deny that Titania loses to Mia in Endgame, and likely with Part 4 since Mia has access to any route of her choice to help clear with efficiency in any route and doesn't take the horse penalty in 4-4 like Titania does.

Efficiency's main goal is geared around low turncounts. This doesn't specifically mean that it is geared 100% towards combat and there are instances, such as Marcus, that can have detrimental effects when used longer (not attempting to use the EXP hog argument, but remember that any EXP plopped onto Marcus is not being used after Marcus is dropped, etc). In my opinion, Marcus defines what a High Tier unit looks like. Not trying to play cross-tier lists, but look at FE7's Marcus. Notice that he's not good for the forced chapters and a couple others after. He's almost solid throughout the entire game with some shaky roads in the later stages in the game. Then we have units like Seth that just wtfrape from day 1 to the end. While Alan and Lance, for example, are not essentially the best of units upon jointime, they still contribute to the efficiency in Chapter 1 since Marcus fails to ORKO, which likely means that Alan and Lance are taking the table scraps. Now of course I can outline how units such as Cain are actually being a mooch because he isn't exactly earning his kills either (neither is Alan or Lance, but at least there aren't much better than just Marcus in the first chapter) in comparison to Cain who lacks any utility whatsoever and just sucks period.

Forced is forced. You can argue that it's storyline-based, but it's still an advantage, in the end. I still don't think that suddenly a unit like Walt can climb over Treck just because he's forced within those chapters. You can see how Walt still sucks despite being forced and training Walt is probably more difficult than Treck. At least Treck can attack on the Enemy Phase and do exceptional on Chapters 7 and 8. Then, later in the game, Treck has an Enemy Phase, WTC, and Horse advantages. Walt has... bows... which is okay but nothing spectacular.

I covered items in the OP. Seems pretty obvious as well, unless I need to go more in-depth with it.

I know I'm only scratching the surface here, but to be honest it is difficult to assume what even efficiency means because, to other players, it can mean almost anything. You can clearly see it within other people. Dondon only assumes optimal deployment, for example of units. This isn't an incorrect statement, but others may disagree on that being part of his definition of efficiency. We have others, like Interceptor, that assume that statboosters and forges are being used wisely for maximum output: not just on the best of the best either, since he's also forged Iron Axe to help big Cord out and the Iron Bow forge for his Hunter. smash doesn't like to assume that some of the stat boosters are being used due to their high competition. Snowy only compares units in Endgame (or if it's Mia a bunch of items). The general point is that these people's ideas aren't completely wrong or 100% correct to what reflects other people's opinions. It is very difficult to exactly measure and define altogether.

Either way, I can say that unlike the others that sat on the sideline and waited for someone to define what they see as "efficiency", I can say that I tried. Maybe failed, as I'm always in the puddle when everyone else is in the pool, but what is different anyway?

----------

Now for the other responses. First off, I apologize. I wasn't really ignoring your comments, so I'm going to summarize what was being discussed:

- @Cath: Here is my problem with Cath. It's not extremely difficult to replace what she does. In particular: chest grabbing. Stealing, I can admit that she still steals items, which is an advantage. She should probably rise, but I don't see her skyrocketing much. Maybe a tier at the most, but I think somewhere near the top of Lower Mid is also acceptable. She is outclassed by Asthol and Chad, but in the same vein she is still a Thief in the end.

- @Sue: Where, specifically? In Sacae, she should rise. Also, I don't think it's terribly difficult to gain levels since she still has the Bow vs. Wyvern thing going on in Chapter 7. In Chapter 8 she's a mount, which gives her some rights to being fielded as well. She also has the quicker access to Killer Bows in comparison to Shin. I don't think she should realistically rise in the Ilia list, but Sacae it's a matter of where.

- @Ray: Hmm... in comparison to Geese and Treck, he's probably marginally better. But I'll try to get something arranged here which helps him go up a little bit. My problem is he's not likely Nosferatu tanking until after promotion (missing likely puts him KOed by the next attack). Furthermore, getting the Guiding Ring is a bit more difficult since we're likely putting Lugh in play and he has more of a right to obtain it (you going to deny Aircalibur destruction and the point of him having slightly better AS?).

Sorry for the tl;dr post.

[grandjackal]

You have to give him a Speedwing, which gives him the ability on weighed down stuff (Steel Lance! whatevers, other shamans etc.)

I guess you have a point on the redundancy, but I just can't see crediting a character much when she's better off dead than the trouble of recruiting her.

I wouldn't waste a stat booster to pile that and a promotion item on top of it...

Anyways, I'm still rather skeptic about Ray going higher, as...Well, I just don't see him rising. He's still slow as sin, and his accuracy is still balls, with little to no support help to help raise it up. I mean yeah, he can do some heavy duty chip, but...I just don't see him rising further above Lillina.

[Florete]

I wouldn't waste a stat booster to pile that and a promotion item on top of it...

Anyways, I'm still rather skeptic about Ray going higher, as...Well, I just don't see him rising. He's still slow as sin, and his accuracy is still balls, with little to no support help to help raise it up. I mean yeah, he can do some heavy duty chip, but...I just don't see him rising further above Lillina.

I agree. Like Mekkah said before, he's definitely usable, but he doesn't really have any higher to go right now.

[Colonel M]

By the way, I won't feel offended if you ignore the tl;dr post above the general comments with what is currently being discussed. I kind of just did it "just because", I guess. It won't stop the trolling, but I guess I will at least defend why I made the specific rule to nixing out the recruitment cost. Not trying to strawman the argument with Hugh, but I don't see why Hugh | Bartre | Elphin should even exist otherwise if we keep applying the recruitment cost over and over again. Again, though, just my opinion.

Also, just trying to help with the non-stop trolling of the efficiency bullshit. Well, it looks like it has stopped. For now.

Otherwise, I apologize if I ignored arguments. It's not organized like FEGs where I can just look at the topic and see what's going on. Too bad I'm too much of a tyrant to be given the list there since Mekkah would say no lol.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Colonel M

[-Cynthia-]

I agree with the difficulty of giving Ray the second Guiding Ring since there's Lugh, Clarine, and Saul/Ellen (who are meh post promotion but anyway). However, we can just promote him in Ch16 anyway.

Ray's Hit isnt that bad. 20/1 Ray with B Lugh has 113 Hit with Nosferatu. Ch16 Paladins have 32 Avo or so (and they're promoted so they're on the dodgier side) etc, so Ray still has true Hit rates in the 80-90 range, which isn't too bad.

I guess Ray's hit is worse before Lugh support/promo, but enemies also have lower Avo.

Hugh's recruitment isnt as bad as I thought I suppose, given the Funds situation. He could probably move up a tier.

Edited April 8, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Colonel M]

I did the funds situation in case that we (as a community) disagreed to ignoring the recruitment canceling. In a sense, if it were assumed that we applied it it would still hurt him from jumping over units, but honestly you have to draw a line somewhere between costing gold and contributing utter shit. In the scenario that we factor recruitment costs though Hugh would take an impact, but I also want to play through the entire game before I safely say "gold isn't much of an issue". I don't believe it honestly is, but for others it could have been.