FE6 HM Tier List

[Colonel M]

Pretty sure he was talking about chapter 14 and 15 at the same time. I think the boss he's talking about is the chapter 15 boss.

I guess.

Well Raeth is pretty pathetic. 10 Spd, 11 Luck...

[Dark Sage]

Pretty sure he was talking about chapter 14 and 15 at the same time. I think the boss he's talking about is the chapter 15 boss.

Yeah you're right. But I should've been more clear about it.

[Narga_Rocks]

There are so many better, more efficient ways to kill Raeth than to rescue-drop Gonzo, mainly because the only unit that CAN rescue-drop Gonzo is unpromoted Thany. If Gonzo is unpromoted, unpromoted Tate can as well, but in that case you'll have better units to kill Raeth with.

I'm not saying Gonzo is in any way a good idea for that task, though. And is Gonzo really going to be promoted at that point? If not, then promoted Thany works just fine. But if he's not promoted then he doesn't have crit with a hand axe anyway, so who cares? I'd rather just use Miledy with a killer or rescue drop Rutger or Dieck or something, I guess. If shin is promoted would rescue dropping him onto the mountain with a killer bow be a horrible idea?

[Dark Sage]

Sorry for bringing up Raeth guys. Don't derail the topic arguing about him/Gonzales.

Hey....

[Narga_Rocks]

Sorry for bringing up Raeth guys. Don't derail the topic arguing about him/Gonzales.

Hey....

Back to Gonzales, then.

Does it matter just how bad his hit rates are even with the killer axe against the various nomads and myrms and nomad troopers? Also, the one dragonlord in chapter 18 has an axereaver. swordreaver can help, but axes being axes it is the only reaver weapon with bad hit. The other two have the same hit as killers. 80, 75, 60? Wha? Iron lance has 70 hit, axereaver has 75 hit. iron axe has 65 hit. swordreaver has 60 hit. Idiot designers. (sorry, venting again)

But yeah, 10 skill and 10 luck before promotion means 25 base hit with the least accurate weapon type in the game. Even after promotion, 15 skill and 10 to 12 luck means just 35.

shin with both sue and fir (AB, probably even less) has 100% hit rates on nomads (killer bow can easily 2HKO). He even pulls 100% hit rates on Nomad Troopers at 20/3 and doubles most of them (19 spd, though you can get some with more in chapter 18. I'm sure it grows in the following chapters but so does he). One rounds with silver but doesn't get 100% hit rates. 3 hits with killers. He's borderline on the 2HKO with silver on some of them (at level 20/3 needs BB support just to get 34 mt with silver and ORKO the 43hp/12def nomad troopers, but many have less than that in chapter 18 and he can get some without supports, though it drops his accuracy into the seventies).

Nomad avo is in the 40s. Gonzo before promotion has 25 + axes. I doubt you are keeping Lilina hanging around to give him +5 or +7 hit. Even if you are, 65 hit killer axe means he has 90 hit + lilina. Let's say 97 to be nice. Give him a 43 avo one to attack. 54 hit. After promotion like 65 hit. And he gives one hit (maybe) to shin's two. At least Gonzo should 2HKO, but he has to 2HKO for that to work.

Even those wyverns manage around 30 avo. At least he has WTA. On some. Then there is that 35+ avo lord with an axereaver. Without Lilina he still only has ~70 hit on those wyverns. And shin can OHKO the ones that aren't promoted with silver. A silver bow lets even sue 2HKO the wyvern lords. shin can 2HKO with killer/steel. Hit rates? No problem for shin even supportless given he can use killers.

[Dark Sage]

Yeah, that's why I said Shin wins Sacae.

[Dat Nick]

Both Sue AND Fir? Let's be honest, Sue is still bad and the Fir support is very unconventional due to slow speed.

[Anouleth]

We very well may be fielding Sue if we're going to Sacae.

Also, the supports are mainly giving him hit and crit evade, so he can live without them. Although I agree that Fir/Shin is not happening.

[-Cynthia-]

What's wrong with Fir/Shin? It's 0+2, but they have from CH9 on to build, so they should get bonuses eventually.

It's not as if Fir really has that many other people to support, her list is full of mediocre people.

[grandjackal]

I dunno, I'd think the huge move difference and FirexIce not being too helpful would have something to do with it.

[Colonel M]

I dunno, I'd think the huge move difference

This is the correct answer. FireXIce is still good since it offers Full Avoid and B gives quite a bit (1 Atk | 1 Def | 5 Hit | 5 Crit | 10 Avoid in particular).

[grandjackal]

To correct you on that.

1 ATK, 1 Def, 10 Hit, 10 Avoid, 5 Crit, 5 Crit Evade

Because fire gives hit, not crit evade.

[Dat Nick]

It's not as if Fir really has that many other people to support, her list is full of mediocre people.

Would you do PriscillaxOswin just because you aren't using any of her other supports?

We very well may be fielding Sue if we're going to Sacae.

Using just Shin is plenty to get to Sacae. Unless you're using both Thany and Tate for some reason.

Edited April 10, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Colonel M]

To correct you on that.

1 ATK, 1 Def, 10 Hit, 10 Avoid, 5 Crit, 5 Crit Evade

Because fire gives hit, not crit evade.

Ah I forgot about the Hit.

Well, more the reason to use it for Sacae. Still, move difference.

[CATS]

Is the move difference that big of a problem? When there's open ground to be covered, such as on Ch 13's bridges, Shin would likely use rescue/drop on Fir so they can both move ahead 7-8 spaces (and this keeps them both together and building supports, as well). When there's not open ground ahead of you (i.e. there's enemies to fight), Shin doesn't want to rush forward 7 spaces into the enemy lines so that he can get attacked by a bunch of melee enemies. Instead, he wants to stay with the melee units (like Fir) so they can block the melee enemies from reaching him.

[Colonel M]

Is the move difference that big of a problem? When there's open ground to be covered, such as on Ch 13's bridges, Shin would likely use rescue/drop on Fir so they can both move ahead 7-8 spaces (and this keeps them both together and building supports, as well). When there's not open ground ahead of you (i.e. there's enemies to fight), Shin doesn't want to rush forward 7 spaces into the enemy lines so that he can get attacked by a bunch of melee enemies. Instead, he wants to stay with the melee units (like Fir) so they can block the melee enemies from reaching him.

I'm not really emphasizing that the support is impossible. I've had difficult with Clarine | Rutgar and I'm doing the situations with her Rescuedropping him and such. Then again, this is also speaking about a Healer and a combatant. The horse makes it a little worse though.

The support can be built, but still a 0+2 with a Mov difference at times (or even times where one won't be fielded such as Shin in Chapter 14) hurts a little bit.

[Dark Sage]

FirexIce is great as noted (that's why / support is at least viable). However, Shin/Fir is pretty bad because it's slow, and because of 25% strength growth and WTD on maps where the bonuses would be helpful (around 13), Fir being fielded would be unlikely due to her fragility.

[-Cynthia-]

Fir can use a Lancereaver. The point is that Fir's a decent character, 0+2 isn't that slow, so Shin/Fir should see some support bonuses eventually. It's more likely than Sue/Shin or Lilina/Gonzales, since we probably aren't using Lilina or Sue. This isn't good news for Gonzales, since he needs the hit from supports a lot more than Shin does.

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't see what's so bad about 1/2 supports. First off it's her best support. Also, her str may seem bad, but keep in mind 20/1 Fir has more str than 20/1 Rutger (yes, yes, I know they'll never be anywhere near the same level. But when you can 4HKO with 70+ crit anyway, who cares? And she'll even 3HKO some things to save uses on those killers if that is something you even care about after chapter 13. The point of the comparison is that her str is just fine). Fir x shin gives something she wants: avo. It gives something he wants: hit. If you can pull off sue and fir he can pull nearly 100% hit on just about everything. Over 90 even with silver bows on nomads and myrms. It takes 45 turns to get sue + shin to B. It takes 85 to get them to A. It takes 60 turns for Fir x shin to get to B. If you think shin x sue can reach A, what's the problem with fir x shin hitting B? I'm slower than most of you so I'm not going to argue for the AB to come during chapter 17, but I can't imagine it takes all that much longer than that even if you complete chapters a few turns faster.

Also, 20/1 Thany and 20/1 shin means you are going to Ilia. Thany should have a level lead on shin due to the extra 7+ chapters she has on him and starting at level 1 to his 5 and he doesn't have an enemy phase most of the time (of course there are things like chapter 12 where he has a good one for a stretch).

I suppose early promo on Thany can make it easier to get more levels for shin, but if you promote her at like level 11 or something, what's stopping you from promoting him at level 14 to get 1 range earlier? If nothing else, it is far easier to get to sacae with sue existing and being raised. 20/1 sue and 18/1 shin create a massive buffer for any levels you want to give to Thany or Tate while still going to sacae. I think sue x shin is very reasonable, whereas lilina x gonzales is very very not.

Also, sue ORKOs the Nomads with silver bow. 3 hits the nomad troopers while doubling most of them, too. silver doesn't reduce damage(edit: attack speed) and almost the same hit as shin if he is Fir-less.

A fearless shin does worse than a fearful shin.

Also, the two make quite a team of butchers in sacae. Two units ORKOing wyvernlords side-by-side (though sue needs silvers, but seeing how you can buy plenty in chapter 17 who cares what she needs?) and on enemy phase they demolish nomads while shin doesn't worry about getting criticaled and they both have 10 or 15 more hit than they would on their own. The two of them are basically better than the cavs for 3 chapters. It's a good thing that Nomads are weak enough for 26 mt to 2HKO otherwise sue wouldn't be a great idea for this, but they are.

Edited April 10, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[-Cynthia-]

Either way, I think it's pretty clear that Sacae!Shin> Gonzales.

What I'm not so sure about is his Ilia position, he might be worse than Gonzales/Echidna there, though probably not a tier lower.

[Narga_Rocks]

Either way, I think it's pretty clear that Sacae!Shin> Gonzales.

But if chapter 17 to 20x are the only things that matter then I could argue sue > Gonzales. ORKOing like 70%+ of the enemies with near 100% hit rates. Needs 23 attack speed for lancereaver myrms and 26 mt ORKOs. Needs 22 attack speed for steel sword myrms and ORKOs. Needs to hit twice with silver to ORKO wyrven lords. Can probably get away with killer/steel for wyvern riders, though maybe needs brave for 30mt + str rather than 27mt + str. Can always fall back on silver's 39mt + str. Nomads have been discussed already. Nomad Troopers and swordmasters are her only real sticking points. At least she is accurate, though.

Hence, we also need to look at chapters 11 to 16 and 21 to endgame though, right?

For chapter 24, for example, I should think being able to use the 2 range s rank bow is better than the 1 range s rank axe. But then with 54 mt on the thing does Gonzo one hit them? 84 mt at the most, though I suppose that a B Lilina gets him 85. That should still miss them. shin can ORKO without taking a counter. Or he could even use silver and let another unit OHKO if you are trying to save weapon uses of the s rank stuff. Then there is the accuracy issue. The bow has 5 more hit than the axe, but shin have way more skill. Also, shin has 8 move to Gonzo's 6. Gonzo can't even be ferried, poor guy, just Rescue/Warp staved around. I assume you aren't bringing tier 1 Thany to chapter 24.

What I'm not so sure about is his Ilia position, he might be worse than Gonzales/Echidna there, though probably not a tier lower.

How is Gonzo's hit in Ilia? That's the real sticking point there. The forests aren't a problem for Nomads and Nomad Troopers since they only cost 2 move, just like foot units. He (shin) still has 4 move to promoted footies' 3. He can still shoot pegs out of the sky, and probably with iron or something. Really accurate, that.

[-Cynthia-]

They obviously aren't the only things that matter, but they make up a significant portion of Shin and Gonzo's total playtime. Gonzales really can't do much before promotion (lack of doubling and he misses a lot) and I don't see how he promotes before C16. So promoted Gonzales only has possibly 21, 21x, 22, 23 and Final (which he doesn't win, since Shin has more Mov).

Shin can ORKO Wyvern Lords better than anyone, but Gonzo has better enemy phase, so I guess 21 is debatable.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I'd argue that Gonzo killing multiple Wyverns with a Killer Axe beats Shin's player phase there. You can warp him south on some peak terrain and he can nuke them while you're working your way to the throne.

[dondon151]

Gonzales really can't do much before promotion (lack of doubling and he misses a lot)

False. Gonzo can double 7 AS fighters in chapter 11 and will probably have no trouble doubling 9 AS cavaliers in chapter 13. He'll probably be able to double 10 AS WKs in that chapter as well. "Missing a lot" doesn't instantaneously kill his offense - if Gonzo 2HKOs and has 60 disp hit, he's still ORKOing half the time. Hit rates higher than that greatly increase his ORKO percentage.

[Narga_Rocks]

Shin can ORKO Wyvern Lords better than anyone, but Gonzo has better enemy phase, so I guess 21 is debatable.

Not quite. At least, not if shin doesn't get Fir. sue has just as much accuracy as he does and silvers are quite powerful.

63hp and 20def is basically top of the line for chapter 23. Need only 52 mt to ORKO. 13 str + silver will pull it off. Killers only have 27 mt, so shin would need 25 str in order to use killers. 24 str (AKA capped) to use it if he has sue support. Then again, I suppose that a lot of them are weaker and thus a killer may do it so he'd have 10 more accuracy than sue (even without B or C Fir) and thus he'd do better than her.

Of course, there's the issue that they have like 3 or 4 res and Aircalibur alone does 40 damage in 2 hits. Need like 12 magic in order to ORKO. 20/5 Clarine (or like 10/15) will have that. On a forest with 22 speed and 23 luck and A Rutger with C Dieck she has 44 + 23 + 20 + 20 = 107 avo. Oh, and 43 cev. When you consider a killer lance wielding wyvern lord has like ~10 hit and 0 crit on her and she ORKOs in return, I guess the question is how long does it take her to get to B anima? 75 battles minus .5 battles for every 2HKO plus .5 battles for every enemy she fails to double but attacks anyway (no extra battles due to crit-killing or killing weakened enemies because, well, it's worth 2 wexp anyway due to killing the thing).

Now, due to chapter 16 I'd assume Clarine gets a robe. 20/5 Clarine has 28 hp and 6 def. 35 hp + 6 = 41 and so even without supports something needs 41 mt to OHKO her. And I stuck her on a forest and gave her +2 def from AC supports anyway. Need 44 mt to OHKO.

+3 if she can pull AB (though 119 turns to B is a lot, even if it starts in chapter 4.)

Also, I suppose if you early promote then 10/15 may be the most she could get, and maybe too high. But 20/5 should be pretty easy (though if that's all she is there is admittedly no way she has B anima).