FE6 HM Tier List

[-Cynthia-]

Ok, he still doubles them nearly OHKOs them and has like 95% true or something. You get the point.

[Narga_Rocks]

Ok, he still doubles them nearly OHKOs them and has like 95% true or something. You get the point.

Oh yeah, I think he's got the best player phase on them of what you are likely to have, too. Well, you might bring Dayan, I suppose. He might not have more accuracy than Lugh, though. Maybe you aren't likely to have him either, though.

As for Gonzales, he's never 2HKOing without Armads, so at least for shin's sake Gonzo is relying on crits. Of course, when those crits are coming from a guy that can probably 4HKO or better with killer axes while standing on a peak to get near infinite durability and he's promoted for 67 crit or so when having 15 skill and so over 50 on those enemies (75% in two tries) I'm not sure how big a deal it is for shin. Of course, level 20/10 Gonzo still only has 16 skill and 14.6 luck. 32 + 7 + 65 = 104 hit. I suppose 114 with WTA. Against high 30s or even 40 that reduces to 74 to 80 listed. But that's still 86.74% to 92.2%. ~85% chance of hitting twice at best, and one of those needs to crit. But it happens on like 3 wyverns per phase. Of course, if he draws 3 enemies and kills one he can still only kill one more on enemy phase leaving 1 that might be close to your weaker allies. I suppose good planning would prevent that, though.

[Dark Sage]

So in conclusion SacaeShin>Gonzales. But Gonzales>IliaShin.

Some people were talking about Cath and wanted to raise her tier position. I'd like to have a discussion about it, so where's she at?

And also it's a bad idea to have a mounted unit with door/chest keys. Why? Because you have to give up healing items, promotion items, stat boosters, and weapons just to have a second rate thief. So I could see Chad making it to Chapter 8.

[grandjackal]

Yet, would it not be smarter to slap keys on such units as to still keep units that fight better than thieves, and also have an easier time surviving thus need less protection?

[Narga_Rocks]

What do people do with 20s? I hate how if I want 9000 I have to use warp. Anyway, one thief can get warped to steal those two things while another works on going right. Barrier'd Cath just happens to have enough hp+res at base level to survive the sage on the left after stealing his red gem. Then the archer moves off his ballista (never to return for some dumb reason likely related to how ballista's cost 2 move and so he can't hop back on in one turn and is too stupid to realize that in two turns he'd be able to attack stuff) and on turn 2 she runs up and steals the orion's bolt. Then she needs to be rescued (staff), unfortunately. But it's not as if Astohl actually does any better. He'd need to be rescued, too (unless he's gotten a lot of levels). And this frees up Astohl to go right. And since she just got rescued on turn 2 she isn't too far behind. Of course, Chad + Astohl can probably pull it off at base anyway too Astohl isn't safe against the killer ballistas anyway. If the thief going right is kept out of battles anyway, then it could just be Chad.

But still, Astohl + Cath is probably the best 2 thief combo here unless Chad has a support with some unit. Of course, that unit probably has been just fine without the Chad support for the many chapters in which he likely hasn't been used.

[Dark Sage]

Yet, would it not be smarter to slap keys on such units as to still keep units that fight better than thieves, and also have an easier time surviving thus need less protection?

No because like I said, you need to give up on extra weapons for the mounted units. Plus it takes about the same time for two of them to loot the chests, so they're off combat duty which you don't want.

[-Cynthia-]

But the units carrying Chest/Door keys also don't take up an "additional unit slot". Since Cath is a failure at combat (and had mostly is as well) using another unit gives us chest getting abilities and combat abilities.

So I guess what Chad and Cath really give us is more inventory slots and player phases for a cavalier or something, in exchange for taking up a unit slot, which I'm not sure is that good of a tradeoff.

[Dark Sage]

Let me give you an example.

In Chapter 16, we need to bring two thieves to cover all the chests. So we give Alan 1 door key and two chest keys. In exchange, he has to give up two weapons, such as a Killer Lance, which would allow to kill enemies more effectively and thus, be more efficient. Compounding the problem is that Alan is a good fighter. Taking him away from the front lines hurts the team's efficiency overall.

You don't need to use Alan for this example. Thany, Noah they're combat units. The best weapons for a combat unit have 20 durability. Taking up an two inventory slots (or three depending which version of a chest key you have or how many doors you need to open) is just a raw deal all around.

[Anouleth]

Team 1 has 10 combat units, Cath and Chad.

Team 2 has 10 combat units, Astohl and Marcus who we've loaded up with 2 chest keys and a door key, and maybe a hand axe or whatever. Marcus moves further than either Cath or Chad, has far superior durability, has canto, and he can rescue-drop Roy to help us complete the chapter more quickly.

Team 1 has 10 combat units, Cath and Chad.

Team 2 has 10 combat units, Astohl and Marcus who we've loaded up with 2 chest keys and a door key, and maybe a hand axe or whatever. Marcus moves further than either Cath or Chad, has far superior durability, has canto, and he can rescue-drop Roy to help us complete the chapter more quickly.

Let me give you an example.

In Chapter 16, we need to bring two thieves to cover all the chests. So we give Alan 1 door key and two chest keys. In exchange, he has to give up two weapons, such as a Killer Lance, which would allow to kill enemies more effectively and thus, be more efficient. Compounding the problem is that Alan is a good fighter. Taking him away from the front lines hurts the team's efficiency overall.

You don't need to use Alan for this example. Thany, Noah they're combat units. The best weapons for a combat unit have 20 durability. Taking up an two inventory slots (or three depending which version of a chest key you have or how many doors you need to open) is just a raw deal all around.

I think having a Thany that's limited to only two weapons and will only be on the frontlines for half the map >>> having no Thany and using Cath instead.

[Narga_Rocks]

For Fir's position, is she basically considered superfluous because you already have Rutger? One thing with her is that having two swordmasters significantly reduces the probability that you won't have one fast enough to double the various fast bosses. I know we don't like to talk about rng-screwage, but I have to think that there is a decent chance that one can get screwed. Like, 20% of having 2 points under average or something annoying. It also then comes with a 20% chance of having 2 points above average. Having two units like this would result in just 4% chance of being unable to double certain enemies. Further you'd have a 36% chance of getting a superfast swordmaster instead of just 20%. eg the 26 speed bosses in 20x (sacae). 20/12 Fir has 28 spd. 20/15 Rutger has 28 speed. If you have both of them then the probability of having one with 30 speed is a lot better than it would be with just one.

If those levels are too high then how about Nomad Troopers? specifically the ones with 21 or 22 speed.

20/11 Rutger has 26 speed. 20/8 or 20/9 Fir has ~26 speed. But what if the one you raised doesn't? If you raised both, you are much less likely to have a slow swordmaster.

I know we like to deal in averages, but when you consider that being screwed out of at least one point tends to have a probability of over 30% at any given level, reducing that to ~10% seems like it could be worth it. Of course, the question is where does the exp come from. It's possible trying to raise both results in a lower level if they are vying for kills (rather than if they are typical team members, so I'm not absolutely certain it would cost exp). I suppose since the two of them compete for boss kills that it might be possible to cost them levels.

[Dat Nick]

If being worse than Rutger is a valid argument, then a lot of people on the tier list need to drop big time. X is outclassed by Y so X is outclassed by Z by default has never been a valid argument.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Colonel M]

Fir being outclassed by Rutgar isn't exactly a valid argument. What is true, however, is that you're likely using Rutgar more for boss killing than Fir anyway. Not saying she's superflous, but think about it. At the moment, my Rutgar is 17/7, which is about the same as 20/4. Fir's problems come back to her:

- Lack of promotion, due to the massive competition between the Hero Crest (Dieck and Gonzales, though I'd argue Dieck before Gonzales)

- Further behind in levels.

I'm going to take a shot in the air and say that, by the time Fir is ~20/1 (which even I can't buy since Lot isn't even close to Level 20. Nor is Gonzales. Don't count that Chapter 15 Playthrough atm.), Rutgar could possibly hit ~17/9, which is about the same as 20/6. So showing that in comparison to Fir:

Fir - 42.85 HP | 16.55 Str | 22 Skl | 22 Spd | 14.9 Luck | 10.05 Def | 8.16 Res

Rutgar - 47.3 HP | 17.05 Str | 25 Skl | 23.5 Spd | 9.8 Luck | 12.95 Def | 7.05 Res

Not to mention Rutgar is guaranteed B Clarine at this point, possibly A. I didn't quite reach A but I'm pretty sure someone else could at that point. The Luck difference is slightly superflous as well since Rutgar still is ahead by almost 4 HP | ~4 Def.

Now this doesn't mean that Fir sucks, it's just attempting to raise her efficiently. Take Gonzales, who at the moment I'm in agreement that he doesn't destroy efficiency when training him. He can sit safely on a Peak in Chapter 13 and just toss a Hand Axe, pull out the Killer Axe from time to time as well. Meanwhile, Fir is competing with everyone else on the bridge for kills, which to be honest isn't plentiful if you're in the north bridge. The only good news is there's the Sword Cavs, but we're also seeing her 2HKOed even by those (something like a Level 11 Fir at that point has 32 HP | 5.7 Def | 42 Avoid with Steel Sword) against something like 21 Atk with a Steel Sword. This just 2HKOes her. She can partially avoid the 2HKO, but I'm only using the 13 Str Cavalier, and it appears that some can have 14 Str.

There's also chapters such as 12, which require more 2 ranged units than anything. Chapter 12X is a bit limited on deployment slots, so fielding her might be difficult to determine. I guess she stands a semblance of a chance, but I'd argue a mount with Keys is better than fielding her (you don't really need Thieves, just mounts with Chest Keys). 14 is the desert. She has 18 AS tops with a Killing Edge, which fails to double the Mercenaries and, unfortunately, the best situation to place her is with all the Bandits. I'm not going to lie: even these fuckers are fairly accurate. Rose has 89 Hit with the Devil Axe. 14 Fir has 53 Avoid. Rose has a 36% chance to Hit, or 26.28% True. Oh, by the way, that's her chances of death against this guy too. So arguing she's fielded in 14 is difficult.

You could try 14X. I wouldn't be AS stingy about it (you have a few more deployment slots), but IMO two of them should be dedicated to fliers with one for Lalum. Add a Healer to the mix since it'd be absurd to not bring one in this chapter. This leaves 5 slots, 4 if we include Rutgar in the mix. I guess she can be one of the 4. Chapter 15 she's not wtfterrible since she isn't doubled by the Valkyrie, has the Killing Edge to help her offense, and the Archers can be taken down up close. She can also attempt to take down the Sniper since his AS is low enough. Chapter 16 she cannot counterattack the Mages, but she can at least take them down up close.

Well, in other words, it's the lack of being able to promote early like Rutgar that hurts her overall. She isn't the only one that feels the heat though; many units within her tier do. Klein is pretty cool, but notice that his AS is even shy right at the getgo. Lot has a great earlygame and he does "okay" in Western Isles (and I can speak from experience), but after Chapter 13 things get rather rough for him until he promotes. He's pretty much the "average man". Tate has a crappier start than Fir does. The only good news is there's Axereaver at that point, but notice all of the walls within this chapter. Well, at least she has a chance in 12X. A. Chance. It's mainly because of the mount. You get the picture I think.

By adding Fir, you don't really add a superfluous boss killer. Having another one might not seem necessary I guess, but at the same time it can be useful in 20X of Sacae and gives you two chances instead of one with other bosses. I wouldn't really go over hyping her boss killing capabilities though, I guess. It's cool she can do it, but in order to even accomplish that we have to deal with something mediocre at first, one could say. I wouldn't call it a sin to use both though. So no, Fir's position isn't based on her being superfluous with boss killing. It goes much further than that.

[grandjackal]

....!!

Speaking of Gonzales holding up in a mountain, I have to ask...

All that water in chapter 13. Anyone tried fly-dropping Geese in it? He'd be a great distraction to the ballistae thanks to the water evasion boost, or at least he could be of great distraction to the incoming wyverns.

[Colonel M]

It could work, but then again the Sea only adds 10 Avoid, so it's not like Geese would be doing much in there. It's stupid, I know.

Another dumb fact: the Lake has a higher cost of movement than the Ocean. What the shit?

[grandjackal]

Well, let's take into consideration that Geese might be level 13 by now (has 3 and a half chapters before chapter 13), which would give him 10 AS and 10 Luck, 30 avoid. Water boosts that to 40. The wyverns only have 77 ACC. With WTA, that's 27 displayed, which isn't shabby by any means. Could make a fine distraction while you have others snipe freely at them with the ballistae, which in turn makes walking across the bridge much easier and quicker, as that's a few less things your main team has to worry about.

Similar things could be said about going Ilia as there are plenty of lakes (might be why it costs more, only time it's really any sort of actual lake and it's freezing cold) to cross, but by then anyone who can be a Berserker probably is one so he couldn't do this alone. That, and anyone with an axe absolutely loves Ilia anyways.

...It's not much, but if you can do this with him it IS something he can do to help us along.

[dondon151]

Lake/ocean's 10 avo pales in comparison to peak's 40 avo, 2 def. And it's not even like Geese is more mobile on a lake than Gonzo is on a peak.

[grandjackal]

Lake/ocean's 10 avo pales in comparison to peak's 40 avo, 2 def. And it's not even like Geese is more mobile on a lake than Gonzo is on a peak.

No crap, I'm just thinking that since Colonel brought up how Gonzales could use the terrain there, I just sort of had a reaction thought to Geese using the water and how to utilize it. I think we're all aware that Gonzales mops the floor with Geese even in terrain advantage.

Just saying it's something he can do that few others could (using Gonzales again, he can train himself up in chapter 13 using the mountains and the paladin reinforcements. All well and good for himself, but that isn't really helping us complete the map faster or easier since they're already behind us. Geese at least could prove to be a distraction for the wyverns, which lets our main team (with Roy) can head for the throne faster as less is getting in their way. Minimal use, but it actually helps towards efficiency). While this is minimal, it does give him an opportunity to be fielded here. This would be an advantage over OJ in a way, who has no real way of being of efficient use as even he struggles to be useful in the isles (and he's a sword user struggling no less) and has a hard time form there (crappy counter in Sacae, doesn't stand out in Ilia). Geese can at least be of some minimal use here regardless of level (so add on 3 avoid, whoopie).

[dondon151]

Assuming a 15/0 Geese @ Hand Axe (so 9 AS), he'll have 23 +20 avo from lake and WTA. He has to deal with 5 WKs, 4 of which have ~80 hit (@ Javelin or @ Steel Lance) and 1 which has ~100 hit (@ Horseslayer). He faces 37 disp (27.75 real) from the 80 hit WKs and 57 disp (63.45 real) from the Horseslayer WK. At 27 -1 atk (23 -1 atk for the Javelin WKs), they 3RKO Geese's 37.25 HP, 9 def. And then there are possible ballista attacks that he'll face. Explain to me how you're going to keep him alive.

Edited April 12, 2010 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

It depends, to be honest.

If you're going through the south bridge, you can actually move the Archers off the Ballistae (it's weird I know). If you're taking the north bridge, though, then you're under a much riskier situation since you'll eventually have to cross the Ballistae unless you can somehow catapult Geese over the Ballistae (well you can Rescue chain him down there).

[Narga_Rocks]

sorry, this is long and doesn't really say much at all. I guess my main problem for now is Gonzo > Marcus in the sacae list. I haven't played Ilia. Really Gonzo is not high in sacae. A few other problems like Chad so high and the healers too close to Clarine.

Fir being outclassed by Rutgar isn't exactly a valid argument. What is true, however, is that you're likely using Rutgar more for boss killing than Fir anyway. Not saying she's superflous, but think about it. At the moment, my Rutgar is 17/7, which is about the same as 20/4. Fir's problems come back to her:

First off, 17/7 Rutger should be >> 20/4 Rutger. 24 spd is that much better than 22.5.

Exp-wise, though, 20/5 Rutger is more likely for a comparison if you accept 17/7 but instead don't early promote. Maybe even 20/6, but I'm guessing promotion doesn't hurt exp gains that much. 20/5 has 23 spd, which is still worse than 24.

- Lack of promotion, due to the massive competition between the Hero Crest (Dieck and Gonzales, though I'd argue Dieck before Gonzales)

Oh yeah, she isn't promoting until chapter 16. Maybe 16x if she doesn't get the crest until next chapter. Why would you promote her before Dieck + Rutger? Especially since one of them should be promoted for chapter 12 and there is no way Fir has anything approaching A swords before promotion this early.

- Further behind in levels.

Never denied that. Way behind for a while, in fact. But like 3 or 4 levels after promotion in chapter 16 she has, with B shin and C rutger:

20/5

possibly going on A shin if no sue.

~46 hp, 17.55 str, 24 skl, 24 spd, 17 luck, 10.65 def, 9 res.

18 or 19 base mt with the supports. 11 or 12 def, 10 res.

48 + 17 + 15 = 80 avo.

killer sword:

27 or 28 mt, 23 attack speed, 82 crit.

Wo dao:

26 or 27 mt, 24 attack speed, 92 crit.

48 + 8 + 15 = 71 base hit. 146 with wo dao and 151 with killers.

armorslayer (effective v. lances)

39 or 40 mt, 19 attack speed, 52 crit, 156 hit. (19 is always enough to double whenever it is effective)

20/10 Rutger:

50.5 hp, 18.25 str, 27.4 skl, 25.5 spd, 11 luck, 13.75 def, 7.85 res.

+4.5 hp, .7 str, 3.4 skl, 1.5 spd, 3.1 def

-6 luck, 1.15 res.

Okay, I guess I'll give him A Clarine, C Dieck, C Fir. Not sure I should even give him the C Dieck, though.

~51 + 11 + 25 = 87 avo. Wins by 7.

Fir wins mt by .3 now due to B shin.

If I give Rutger all that then he wins crit by 11. Lose Dieck and it's only 6.

Rutger gets 6 more hit from skill but loses 3 from luck. Fir gets 15 from supports and Rutger gets 15. Hit's almost the same.

Rutger gets 2 def/res from supports and Fir only one (even when she hits A) so 4 def gap (like it matters with their hp/avo) and about a tie in res.

He gets 22 cev from supports and she only gets 7. He wins by a lot but only when supports are present. He wins by 9 overall, but that's not enough for immunity to killers/enemies with bonuses and her 17 unsupported is already sufficient for everything else, including enemies with +5 bonuses from whatever. Now, he is supplying Clarine with the needed cev to be immune to killers on units with no bonus and on enemies with bonuses but no killers, But Fir makes shin immune to the crits of stuff with +5s as well, and probably some Nomads, too, even if maybe not the troopers. Also she makes one of the best sacae units 10 more accurate on some of the highest avo enemies in the game (nomads and troopers and myrms and swordmasters). Even if you thought 5 wasn't a significant improvement, bet you can't say that about 10. Also the +1 mt may mean the difference between a 2HKO with iron and not, but then killers could have been bought in bulk in chapter 13 if you knew you were sacae-bound.

Oh, and when she hits A shin she now has an extra point of mt and will tie avo, considering she'll level faster and has a better avo growth.

Then there is Echidna:

Let's go level 10 to be nice and round up everything.

42 hp, 16 str, 22 skl, 21 spd, 8 luck, 10 def, 9 res.

50 avo.

48 base hit.

Oh wow, a tie in res. Yay. Maybe I should take pity and give her B Lalum. Lalum is awesome for every chapter.

Let's see, Fir kills everything she 4HKOs or better like 90% of the time. 12 luck enemies face 70% crit which results in 91% death. Echidna not so much. I suppose she gets wta on lance users, but aside from how it slows her down by 2 to use killer axes, she still manages to lose both avo and hit even with wta to fir's wtd. Even if you throw in B Lalum she still loses avo (due to speed loss) and just barely wins hit, except oh yeah, to actually use axes she takes a massive drop in hit and thus loses hit by 15 anyway.

Really I think Marcus > Echidna just based on how Marcus is at least the best for a while. Echidna arguably loses Dieck at this point and arguably loses to Rutger. You could maybe argue for a win for a couple of chapters, but keep in mind Dieck should have A swords for silver access (he's probably the only dude to have A swords for a while until Rutger finally gets there) and Rutger may have more speed. level 15 Dieck with silver has 26 mt. What does she have? The same 13 str and no 13 mt weapons. And he has Thany boosting his crit and crit evade and accuracy and Lot boosting his avo and crit evade. I suppose she stomps in speed, though. Hence my mention of Rutger.

Marcus is probably the best until Zealot. Echidna is like tied at first with two characters.

(To be funny: 11/1 Thany with silver lance has 22 mt and 15 speed. Promote her at level 15 and she has 23 mt and 17 speed. Echidna can manage 24 mt with a killer axe and a little more hit (remember Thany's supports). Okay, so durability is in Echidna's favour unless Thany got the first robe, but still, it's kinda sad. Thany actually wins with the first robe, btw.)

I'm going to take a shot in the air and say that, by the time Fir is ~20/1 (which even I can't buy since Lot isn't even close to Level 20. Nor is Gonzales. Don't count that Chapter 15 Playthrough atm.), Rutgar could possibly hit ~17/9, which is about the same as 20/6. So showing that in comparison to Fir:

Fir - 42.85 HP | 16.55 Str | 22 Skl | 22 Spd | 14.9 Luck | 10.05 Def | 8.16 Res

Rutgar - 47.3 HP | 17.05 Str | 25 Skl | 23.5 Spd | 9.8 Luck | 12.95 Def | 7.05 Res

If you can actually pull off 17/9 by the time Fir gets to 20/1 then he's sitting pretty at 25 spd. Being able to early promote might be a good enough difference in the two of them that she'll never catch up.

On the bright side, she can avoid thunder crits and reaver crits without needing to hang around his support partner all the time. And since Clarine has to go and heal people a lot (only 15 uses of physic until 18 sacae/19 ilia) he might be vulnerable to crits a lot more often. Fir should only be vulnerable to crits from killer weapons and berserkers/swordmasters.

Not to mention Rutgar is guaranteed B Clarine at this point, possibly A. I didn't quite reach A but I'm pretty sure someone else could at that point. The Luck difference is slightly superflous as well since Rutgar still is ahead by almost 4 HP | ~4 Def.

And Fir could have B shin with C Rutger for chapter 17 or 18. I'm not sure any of you will buy that, but I just don't see Rutger getting AB Clarine Dieck as a reasonable support set-up. Especially if people want to make some kind of triangle between those three. It seems faster to focus on Dieck <-> Clarine and Clarine <-> Rutger since you can get points for both all in one turn. Trying to get Dieck <-> Rutger as well will slow them all down. Thany x Dieck gives some accuracy with a 10/+2 support, which to me in this game is already enough motivation to take that to a B at least. Dieck x Lot will give full def and avo and crit evade. Thany x Dieck also gives full crit and crit evade, for what it's worth. Rutger has basically one good quick support, Clarine. If you bring Noah or Bartre into this... but I wouldn't so it probably doesn't matter. Not to mention Clarine doesn't even fight for a long time. Apparently people think sue is nearly worthless so giving something to shin to help out his crit evade (even if it is only a 2/5/7 support rather than a 5/10/15 support) seems like she's doing more for him than Rutger is doing for Clarine. As you are probably finding out, an early promo for Clarine doesn't make her a good fighter, either durably or offensively. And shin gets full accuracy and avo from Fir. And +1 mt for both that Rutger will not get anywhere but her (and Dayan and Karel, but come one. A 1/+1 support that late?). Now, he'll probably not be able to hit B Fir ever, so he's not actually getting +1mt from anywhere. If Fir goes AC shin Rutger (I'd say shin goes A sue, but she doesn't exist apparently) then she gets +2 mt anyway.

As for Clarine and Rutger, I'm not sure when I hit A. I might have had it for chapter 15. It's probably to an A before Fir gets past C shin only. C shin is basically accuracy and avo with a tiny bit of crit and crit evade thrown in. Oh, and a 20/1 shin with B fir should be nearly immune to crits from nomads. 17 cev I think is close.

Now this doesn't mean that Fir sucks, it's just attempting to raise her efficiently. Take Gonzales, who at the moment I'm in agreement that he doesn't destroy efficiency when training him. He can sit safely on a Peak in Chapter 13 and just toss a Hand Axe, pull out the Killer Axe from time to time as well. Meanwhile, Fir is competing with everyone else on the bridge for kills, which to be honest isn't plentiful if you're in the north bridge. The only good news is there's the Sword Cavs, but we're also seeing her 2HKOed even by those (something like a Level 11 Fir at that point has 32 HP | 5.7 Def | 42 Avoid with Steel Sword) against something like 21 Atk with a Steel Sword. This just 2HKOes her. She can partially avoid the 2HKO, but I'm only using the 13 Str Cavalier, and it appears that some can have 14 Str.

I think most of her levels for me were obtained in chapters 9, 10, a few in 11, 12 against the fighters (and she KOd a warrior) (also a good time to raise her shin support in places where he attacks and she can be adjacent but out of range), she didn't even go to 12x, didn't do much in 13 but on the bridge I used everyone I had to kill things, didn't go to 14 (nor did Rutger, actually, I didn't see the point) got a bunch in 14x though I used Rutger and Miledy mostly to kill stuff on what became an island, don't think I had her kill much in 16 (focusing on levels for shin and alan, mostly) and I think I promoted her in 16x or something at level 20.

Now, to be honest, I might have a slightly better opinion of her because I was trying to beat the chapter 9 boss without risking death so it took a while after I reached the boss. Lugh kept missing and then Zealot wouldn't crit so it took a while and Fir (and Rutger, actually) cleaned up a lot of the reinforcements. I wasn't trying to hang back for her, not at all. It just happened and she was like level 6 leaving chapter 9, which is utterly ridiculous, I know.

There's also chapters such as 12, which require more 2 ranged units than anything. Chapter 12X is a bit limited on deployment slots, so fielding her might be difficult to determine. I guess she stands a semblance of a chance, but I'd argue a mount with Keys is better than fielding her (you don't really need Thieves, just mounts with Chest Keys). 14 is the desert. She has 18 AS tops with a Killing Edge, which fails to double the Mercenaries and, unfortunately, the best situation to place her is with all the Bandits. I'm not going to lie: even these fuckers are fairly accurate. Rose has 89 Hit with the Devil Axe. 14 Fir has 53 Avoid. Rose has a 36% chance to Hit, or 26.28% True. Oh, by the way, that's her chances of death against this guy too. So arguing she's fielded in 14 is difficult.

I send Rutger and Dieck up the right, so I gotta have something melee to go up the left side. Okay, sure, Lance and Alan, but she's still of use there. 12x is a no-go. There's like 8 slots. Roy + Astohl + Rutger + Clarine + Zealot (unless you are actually promoting one of the cavs this early) + Lalum + Dieck is already 7 units. Lalum + thief + fighting units lets me get the lockpick of the middle thief after he picks two chests and then I just slowly grab his stuff. One thief is OHKOd by Dieck and the other in the bottom-middle needs to be killed on turn 2 or something, or at least block that bottom chest.

I didn't have any trouble with getting her (and a lot of other units) to level 20 by the end of 16x. I think only Gonzo wasn't promoted by chapter 17. And I use way too many tier 1 units:

Clarine, Miledy, Dieck, Thany, Lance, Alan, Gonzales, Rutger, Fir, sue, shin, Lugh.

I kept not deploying Gonzo, though. He's the only one that promoted before level 20, though (level 19). The way I figure it, any extra turns I take are canceled by all the extra units I bring and raise and have to alternate due to having too many units. Fir got cut just as much as Lance or Alan or anyone else. Well, Lugh and Gonzo got cut the most, I have to say, and I think I deployed Miledy every single chapter. Clarine only missed chapter 14. Yeah yeah only having saul and Cecilia with restore wasn't fun. At least I made the idiot sleep staff user put sofiya to sleep repeatedly. I think I had to get Cecilia to restore saul once from silence, though. Fliers + Lalum help there.

You could try 14X. I wouldn't be AS stingy about it (you have a few more deployment slots), but IMO two of them should be dedicated to fliers with one for Lalum.

Oh, right, Lalum I never cut. Ever. Far too helpful for whatever I want. But a dedicated sword user against all those axe users (and the axereaver draco) was good. Really, do you guys actually get Lance or Alan to C swords before promotion? I mean, sure, early on it's nice to have them using swords, and I suppose on the isles, but is that actually enough? It's chapter 22 and Alan is barely over halfway to B and Lance isn't even. Without the promo bonus they'd still have Ds. As for the rest, if you are giving her level 14, what level would you say Echidna is? Will you give me C shin this early?

Fir:

34 hp, 12 str, 19 skl, 20 spd (20 with wo dao, 18 with killer), 12 luck, 6 def, 5 res.

Echidna, say level 3?

36.5 hp, 13.6 str, 19.5 skl, 18.6 spd, 6.4 luck, 8.3 def, 7.3 res.

(I rounded with Fir and not Echidna because Fir is not sitting at .4s and .6s and .5s)

Would you consider it even possible for her to build a support with a dancer? Lalum is kinda busy. Go off to some place with no enemies left and dance for a unit to get it back to the lines. Echidna goes off to stand next to her in the middle of nowhere? Lalum gets picked up by a mount to be brought up closer to everyone, Echidna not only loses any built supports completely at that point but can't build more. I don't see it being remotely practical. Echidna faces crit from so much and Fir has 14 cev. I think that those reaver wielders don't even have crit on her. They'd need 20 skill just to get 1%. They need like 4 skill to get crit on Echidna.

Next question, Echidna has killers. Fir has killers. Echidna has 16.6 spd with the killer axe. 18.6 with the sword. Fir has 18 with the sword. Fir can get 20 with the wo dao if it's still around. How much does 22/23 mt reliably ORKO? How much do the two of them need to rely on crits? Fir wins by one or two if she has shin, but really who cares? As for avo, Fir has 36 + 12 + 5 = 53 avo with shin. Echidna has 42, maybe 44. For 2 hp and 2 def but constantly facing crit and having less avo, I'm almost willing to give the defensive win to Fir. Even res is only 2 or 3 points.

Oh, hit rates.

38 + 6 + 5 = 49 base hit for Fir with shin.

~39 + 3 = 42 base hit for Echidna.

7 hit lead for swords vs. swords.

If Echidna wants to pull out axes, she has 107 with a killer. Fir has 129 with a killing edge. Even against lances she'd have more hit (though obviously far less mt).

Granted Fir only has 20 mt with killer against lances to Echidna's 25 with killer axe, but axe wielding wyverns aren't the only enemy and in addition Fir makes shin more accurate on them anyway, and shin is a lot better on player phase against them than Echidna could ever hope to be. It's only 5 hit, but let's compare 75 listed to 80 listed.

87.75%

92.2%

Chance of hitting twice:

~77%

~85%

That's a decent difference. And you know he isn't pulling out silver this early because of weapon rank. He has 27 mt + str with killers and 18 mt + str with iron and has the same hit. 27 mt + str with steel as well but less hit. 15 less to be precise. I should think he's not one-hitting anything at this point. 41hp and 14 def at this point. He'd need 16 str just to OHKO with silver. Max tier 2 str doesn't even do it with killers. Of course, he needs 17 str to 2 hit with iron. Not until promotion. Oh well. But still, 5 more hit is always nice. Level 15 shin (for the .2s and .9s rather than .7s and .65s): 16 skill and 11 luck. 37 base hit. 117 hit with killer and 102 hit with steel. around 30 avo for wyverns. Guess I should compare better hit, eh? Well, keep in mind the other stuff for enemies with 42 avo.

87 listed vs. 92 listed.

96.75

98.80

93.6

97.6%

Chance of failure?

6.4 % vs. 2.4 %

Cuts it down to almost a third.

Yeah yeah it doesn't actually do all that much. There are 3 wyrmslayers in the game anyway.

Anyway, This is Echidna like 4 or 5 chapters after recruitment. Marcus was really important for the first bit. Echidna?

chapter 11: recruitment, chapter is nearly done when she shows up.

chapter 12: hand axe = bad. Just use like sue and Lugh and shin for that. Dieck promoted takes the boss. she's really not doing much. she's not even much better against the fighters than fir, and the wo dao doesn't even exist for echidna.

chapter 12x: Dieck can OHKO thieves (if he hits, around 80% or something I think, over 70 at least) and like you said: mounts are nice here. Rutger needs all the deployments he can get if you want him at a good level for promotion.

chapter 14: 10 + Roy + Cecilia + sofiya.

Thany + Miledy + Tate + Cath + Chad + Astohl + saul = 7 units. Maybe Lugh? 8. Dieck for Durandal on mamkutes or something. Clarine maybe, or something else. I'm not seeing Echidna here.

Maybe she's great in chapter 13 and you could maybe argue 12x? I'm just not seeing her matching Marcus' use. Even if she's top 6 or something for some of those chapters, I'm not really seeing anything more than that.

But then I can't say I'm seeing Gonzo and his hit being all that great, either. Chapter 13 you can raise him on a peak with the reinforcements, sure, though he does risk death at times even there (axereaver dude has crit and wta, for example). His hit is just bad and he starts at 10 speed to her 13 speed and he's at a higher level with a lower growth. There are things he doesn't even double and still has like 60 hit. Fir with iron sword probably has a higher expected value of damage than he does on some things. And if you let her play with the wo dao at all... And while Gonzo can be fun as a berserker with killer axe against wyverns later on, Fir with supports and a wyrmslayer can be devastating. Even with wtd she is pulling stupidly low hit rates. 20/5 was already 80 avo, and by chapter 21 she should be a fair amount higher (especially after nomad trooper killing in sacae, if you went there). Wyrmslayer is a nearly guaranteed KO and she could easily save uses with a crit. If units like Lance and Alan want to kill those things they need wyrmslayers anyway but at least she might crit. And more hit for shin. 10 or 15 by now. He also ORKOs. Even sue can ORKO with silver, so obviously he can. If she has, say, 90 avo at this point then that's 80 still after wtd. The javelin ones are under 90. The stupid axereaver ones have ~110 hit vs. 90 avo but wtd, so 10. The killer ones may be the biggest problem, though. 3HKO her with 117 hit so 37% hit and probably 20% crit, less depending on level and supports. Well, that's chapter 23. Not sure about chapter 21 wyverns, and not many have killers there anyway. Even silver means only 108 hit so less than 30. Too bad there is only one lancereaver, but they still 3HKO at like 18.3% true and there is usually only one at a time.

I'm just saying, Marcus > Gonzo/Echidna.

He's not exactly special later on when an upper mid unit performs nearly the same (or better if you let her have a wyrmslayer) and early on he neither doubles nor hits reliably. I suppose something can be said for distracting reinforcements in chapter 13, but that's not much. And against other things like heros she crushes poor Gonzo. Against armors he does pretty well (doubling with killers may be better than him using hammer, but he doesn't lose attack speed either way) but she could use armorslayer. Really, though, you'd have Clarine and she 3HKOs or you could have Lugh or someone 2HKO with doubling. Towards the end even the Niime or the bishop could do well. Plus there aren't really all that many. Even Miledy with Killers can hurt them pretty bad.

Add a Healer to the mix since it'd be absurd to not bring one in this chapter. This leaves 5 slots, 4 if we include Rutgar in the mix. I guess she can be one of the 4. Chapter 15 she's not wtfterrible since she isn't doubled by the Valkyrie, has the Killing Edge to help her offense, and the Archers can be taken down up close. She can also attempt to take down the Sniper since his AS is low enough. Chapter 16 she cannot counterattack the Mages, but she can at least take them down up close.

Mages are actually pretty fast. Alan doesn't double them anyway and javelins and hand axes don't have good hit. Besides, there aren't all that many and the first one you don't want to counter because of his red gem. There aren't many left along the middle. When you do open that door, you either have all your units right up against it and can rush the enemies there or you have your thief far up and your others not so much and have to draw them anyway to crush with your other units. Either way, she pretty reliably ORKOs the things in case another unit misses. Or she can try her crit-luck on the paladin. Then there are the two snipers that are fought like immediately after opening the door or with shin. Also, a lot of the mages do move, remember. she can basically just fight them on player phase. Depending on timing, for example, the second mage before the door may not even be fought until player phase. Granted, with the move of the mounted units she may not be the one to do it even if the fighting happens on player phase, but don't forget rescue dropping anyway. With only 4 enemies before the unmoving armor at the door and all that space to cover, I doubt it will hurt if she's getting carried a bit.

Oh, and this chapter should be another easy win for shin over Gonzo.

Well, in other words, it's the lack of being able to promote early like Rutgar that hurts her overall. She isn't the only one that feels the heat though; many units within her tier do. Klein is pretty cool, but notice that his AS is even shy right at the getgo. Lot has a great earlygame and he does "okay" in Western Isles (and I can speak from experience), but after Chapter 13 things get rather rough for him until he promotes. He's pretty much the "average man". Tate has a crappier start than Fir does. The only good news is there's Axereaver at that point, but notice all of the walls within this chapter. Well, at least she has a chance in 12X. A. Chance. It's mainly because of the mount. You get the picture I think.

Fir is over most of those units already. How about a chad-drop? Cath > Chad unless you've actually had him fight a ton when she shows up and I still don't see why Wendy and Barth can't open all the chests in the first room of chapter 8. Astohl pretty much trumps Chad forever afterwards, including having enough luck not to worry about crits for a long time. Cath into lower mid and Chad down to upper mid. Fir > saul and ellen, though. It's healer utility and that's harder to quantify, though, but consider that Clarine's better durability and much better promoted offence and her 7 move for healing/restoring purposes and extra physic range before promotion when none of them have much magic... That should be a bigger gap than it is now, and if people can't accept Clarine in top tier then Zealot > saul/ellen seems better. Also, I'd ask for Fir > Roy but I have to admit Rapier early on can be somewhat crutch, but not for long, really. Chapter 3 for those reinforcements, I suppose. A few times on armors before Lugh really gets going. Maybe on chapter 4 because halberd is really really inaccurate. Why can't there be more sword wielding cavs by percentage of total cavs throughout the game? 15 mt Rapier > 12 mt Rapier.

By adding Fir, you don't really add a superfluous boss killer. Having another one might not seem necessary I guess, but at the same time it can be useful in 20X of Sacae and gives you two chances instead of one with other bosses.

Well, there are some things that they don't double unless their level is ridiculous or something. One shot frequently doesn't even KO the thing. In 20X though I had them run around together. Of course, she was ridiculously blessed and doubled, but whatever. They both still double with crit the three druid bosses. 21 speed isn't doubled by many things. Though of course two of them weigh themselves down a ton with Fenrir.

I wouldn't really go over hyping her boss killing capabilities though, I guess. It's cool she can do it, but in order to even accomplish that we have to deal with something mediocre at first, one could say.

selective use. While she may be mediocre against lance users, those aren't the only things that exist. How many units actually have 13 speed in chapter 9 anyway? Even Dieck needs to be ~level 15 already. I suppose Lance could be level 11. Lugh needs level 15. Even Fir with an iron sword 2RKOs most axe users with near-100% hit. Even 3HKOs some of them. And iron axe ones aren't slowing themselves down for everyone else. steel axe ones she could even double with killers, though personally I don't give her one until chapter 13. But then I let her keep the wo dao and use it sparingly. Dieck could maybe take the second killer forcing Rutger to use the wo dao after the killer breaks, but don't forget that the killer has 1 more mt and 5 more hit and bosses typically have a ton of def and avo. I just don't think Dieck needs a killer against most random enemies and Rutger then has two killers until chapter 13. If you really want her to double with crit without attack speed loss, wo dao is your toy.

I wouldn't call it a sin to use both though. So no, Fir's position isn't based on her being superfluous with boss killing. It goes much further than that.

But she's not really that bad. If she were never useful then you could drop her below Klein, really, or further. I think I just value safety more. Like whittling down the chapter 9 boss so that you don't face his killer axe at one range. Honestly, Rutger with a killer against that? No thanks. Asking to die, really. Better to light brand and elfire, or make the boss equip hand axe and use Zealot on player phase only with killer sword making 1 hit and hoping for crits and then pick him up and get him out of there and do it again next turn. Fir can get a fair amount of levels on the reinforcements while you are beating the boss safely. I suppose Rutger with Light Brand could speed it up, but then you need to leave the boss with killer equipped since he still 3HKOs Rutger with the hand axe (Only Zealot is spared this, maybe unless you give the right unit the robe). With the killer equipped, no Zealot with killer sword. It's just a major pain that takes forever. Or you could get lucky, but even then it takes two or three turns. I think Fir gets over 50 exp a kill at this point. Fir can be level 5 anyway after chapter 9 unless part of efficiency is needlessly risking death for the sake of 2 or 3 turns.

One last question on Marcus: Why would he be in different tiers depending on Ilia or sacae? Is he ever going to be deployed in either? And is Echidna utility or a permanent member?

If part of Fir's trouble is training (considering soon after promotion she is even somewhat durable against wyverns and her offence is among the best) then why isn't Gonzo held back? He's strong off the bat, sure, but he's also slow and inaccurate. I can buy the training in chapter 13. I did it, and it's part of what made him not so bad, really. But, say, chapter 11. What's he doing there? Fir > Gonzo there, I should think. Chapter 12 he's one of the most inaccurate guys on the team with that 2 range and Fir > him on the fighter/warriors. Boss is OHKOd with Durandal on Dieck or Rutger. Andything else is just strange and Gonzo faces crit anyway so he's stuck with hand axes on a unit that is sitting on a throne. I'd be surprised if he hits one out of two, Even though the boss has "just" 39 avo. 12x is not for either of them, really. 13 is good for training him but that doesn't mean he's helping us at all so no credit there. 14 is a desert. How about neither of them, thanks. 14x has three units strong against swords. One axe user with swordreaver and two wyverns that aren't using axereavers. For Gonzo, there are two wyverns with true lances and one sword unit with lancereaver. As for the rest, there are actually 5 units that are strong against him. Two axereaver using wyverns and three mercenaries that don't use lancereavers. Also, Fir will see maybe two units actually strong against her. Gonzo should face three. And she's strong on all those axe users and he's neutral. Chapter 15 has groups of cavs but also two groups of swords. Basically, it's a wash. Chapter 16 is lacking in lances. There are some armors, sure, but it's best to just magic them away. eg: Clarine has 8 move if promoted and 3 or 4 HKOs them, almost any other unit could finish one off. Also shin with a bow is good for the javelin armor on the other side of the wall and there isn't much else. I don't know which direction you think is good for Gonzo, but it seems like mounted units are better up the right. Any unmounted like Dieck need to be carry-able. My reasoning is Douglas, basically. Get units past him. Thany with iron sword can keep him occupied reasonably proficiently and she 4HKOs the mercenaries that spawn nearby. Miledy with killer lance can take care of that armor.

Maybe 16x is good for him, but killer sword promoted Fir is devastating even against lance wielding cavs. Then you have sacae where Gonzo is lucky to make contact on anything not a wyvern and Fir is part of your best player phase offence. Basically, this isn't an argument for Fir > Gonzo, but one for Marcus > Gonzo. Gonzo goes through training while really not being among your best units. If this can be held against Fir, it should be held against Gonzo. Marcus is good at the start. Gonzo is maybe among the top 10 for a few chapters near the end of the game. Like, 21 and 23. Even in 24 sue of all units is probably better. 2HKOing mamkutes from 2 range with 8 move vs 2HKOing mamkutes from 1 range with 6 move. Armads is powerful, but you need 89 mt to OHKO. Armads is only good for 54 and 30 str gets you to 84. Not happening. sue, however, gets 48 mt out of her bow alone causing 50 damage in two hits to 23 def. As a result, to KO a 66 hp mamkute she needs just 8 str and will take no damage in return. Almost gets that from promotion and her base str. And then the accuracy thing again: 17.5 skl and 18 luck at 20/20. 35 + 9 + 75 = 119 hit. He's got to be one of the only units to not have 100% hit on the ~28 avo mamkutes, and you know he isn't going to be 20/20. Throne mamkutes have 26 def and 73 hp, so s rank bow causes 44 damage and sue needs 15 str. 20/8 or 20/9. They also have 63 to 67 avo making Gonzo around 50%. That 20/9 sue has 134 hit. With A shin that's 149. Where are Gonzo's big moments? Being warped to a peak in chapter 21 and 23 to take on wyverns? Clarine can do that with aircalibur (though probably not in chapter 21) on a forest or mountain and she has less need of warp. Best part of Clarine? The enemy will prioritize her even in the event of 0% hit on her. They are that stupid. Gonzo needs to be off on his own or else everything will attack some other unit. Well, maybe they'll attack Fir or something. Wyrmslayer 20/10 Fir on a forest has 54 + 19 + 20 = 93 avo. 83 against wtd. 87 hit against her for the axereaver ones, 89 or so with the steel lance or javelin ones. Basically, she only fears the promoted ones and there is only one at a time anyway. Only the three with killer lances are actually something to avoid. The silver lance ones don't matter. I'll give you that Gonzo shouldn't worry about the killer lance ones, though. 20/11 Gonzo has 25 speed and 15 luck. 65 avo. 105 on a peak. 115 with wtd. 118 or so killer lance dudes. Close enough, probably. 36 mt enemy. Gonzo is actually 4HKOd as well so even if the guy gets incredibly lucky and crits Gonzo still lives. And the silver lance ones have 0% hit. Axereaver dudes have 117 hit thanks to weapon triangle against 105, so 12%, but he'd have to get criticaled by the killer and hit by the axereaver guy to die. Not happening.

21x is owned by mounted units, especially Thany/Miledy. Gonzo maybe kills one thing near the beginning and a couple things along the way.

22 is probably another mount-fest. I suppose that there are generals to kill, but there are also heros and berserkers for Fir to butcher. Even the generals are 4HKOd with armorslayer. You can buy a million in chapter 21. (Berserkers should have 0% hit on her, Clarine, and Rutger. Probably not anybody else. Maybe I'm missing someone)

I'm just not seeing what is making Gonzo that high or why shin > Gonzo took so much work.

At the very least, I should think Marcus > Gonzo on sacae. I haven't looked at Ilia. Maybe Gonzo is somehow awesome there compared to everyone else and deserves to be > Marcus on the list. But sacae? Gonzo has chapter 13, 21, and 23. And even then Clarine can actually outdo him against wyverns on 23 because she should be ORKOing all of them. On a forest with max spd/luck she has 100 avo. With supports, though, she can get that 100 avo from AC Rutger Dieck and get 50 cev making her immune to the rare killer that actually hits her. Gonzo isn't ORKOing everything with his hand axe, and he's not doing anything to the javelin users. Wait, Clarine is above him (though it should be a tier). But still, they are in groups of 4. It's not that hard to take them out that standing on a peak for 3 maps puts Gonzo > Marcus.

I think I looked at my roster and Gonzo was only good to be deployed in like half the chapters leading up to chapter 16x. 17 sacae I had him on a mountain, but moving him around meant Thany couldn't help Miledy get to the top right village. 18 is out, 19 I had him block wyvern reinforcements after breaking through the top right. That and standing on a forest at the start are all he is good for. I'd only credit him for the second thing, though, since anyone that isn't OHKOd can probably block the top right break in the wall. That finally got him to level 19, but then in chapter 20 there are too many sword and axe users. Fir > him again. 20x has way too many Nomads and not nearly enough wyverns to be worth Gonzo. btw, Niime can actually ORKO one of the wyverns since if it is left alone it flies North with steel lance equipped. And shin or sue can ORKO the wyvern lord with the other on the river. Gonzo is really not good in sacae. Nothing like 50 avo to ruin your day if you use axes only. 15 hit with killer + base hit, and we know he doesn't have good skill. 15 at promotion. And he doesn't double 19 spd until 20/7.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Dat Nick]

This is getting pretty ridiculous. If Fir ever drops on the tier list, it should be because she's worse than Shin, Thany, or whatever, not because she's worse than Rutger, because she's already two tiers below him. Do we need to keep typing walls of text to assert the fact that 2+2 equals 4? I haven't seen so much text about nothing since the Merlinus bollocks.

[Narga_Rocks]

This is getting pretty ridiculous. If Fir ever drops on the tier list, it should be because she's worse than Shin, Thany, or whatever, not because she's worse than Rutger, because she's already two tiers below him. Do we need to keep typing walls of text to assert the fact that 2+2 equals 4? I haven't seen so much text about nothing since the Merlinus bollocks.

Hey, I compared her to more than Rutger. And I made direct recommendations on what to do. I compared her with Rutger to see how well she does, but maybe I should just focus on Gonzo as they both gain levels and use that. If we can ignore Rutger's existence and just compare Fir directly to Gonzales then I could do that instead when I feel like it. I just really don't think Mr. Miss is all that great to deploy either, so any deployment arguments against Fir should, in my opinion, apply to him as well.

[Dat Nick]

I COMPLETELY misunderstood the Mr. Miss analogy when I first read it. Ew.

Also, unless this becomes a Max Efficiency list, which it doesn't seem to be doing (by neglectment of recruit costs), then I don't see the point in copping out the deployment slots argument to begin with.

[Narga_Rocks]

I COMPLETELY misunderstood the Mr. Miss analogy when I first read it. Ew.

Also, unless this becomes a Max Efficiency list, which it doesn't seem to be doing (by neglectment of recruit costs), then I don't see the point in copping out the deployment slots argument to begin with.

I have no idea what you were thinking. I just figured since he misses half his attacks, or nearly so, that he needs an insulting nick-name. I'm at a loss as to what to do with Gonzo. He needs to have the speed to double so he is at least likely to hit stuff, but for that to be a long term process he needs the levels up to at least 16 I'd think to get there. But his promo bonus is +5 skill, which is clearly really helpful to his hit since it is +10. And Lilina is almost certainly not fielded, though I suppose maybe we could consider it. Except for how that adds another unit to compete against with respect to the armors, and she'd be nearby wherever he is to boost his hit so he competes directly. And she needs all the exp she can get for her speed and since she sucks against so many other enemies (eg: can't even ORKO wyvern lords with aircalibur since 30 + 24 = 54 and they have more hp than that), though I suppose if she is at a high enough level she can OHKO the unpromoted ones. 51 hp and 3 res at the most, really. Well, maybe 51/4 but her support solves that. B Gonzo means +1 mt from her own affinity. Too bad her staff rank will suck and never hit C. 20 range with physic/warp/rescue can't be bad. Basically, if they are both in range of an armor then Lilina kills it because Gonzo can kill other things and Lilina needs the exp badly. And now Fir v. Gonzo doesn't even care about the armors anymore. That's part of why I think Lilina shouldn't be included in Gonzo comparisons. If only she didn't trivialize one of his biggest wins.

Well, if we aren't looking at justifying her(Fir) deployment (though I still wouldn't send her to 12x or 14) then it becomes easier. The question then becomes level growth, since I'm assuming level 20/14 for chapter 22 is out of the question (spd blessing has nice perks in sacae). But I think level 20/9 for chapter 22 is easy enough. Maybe not in Ilia, though.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[CATS]

tl;dr, but I did notice this:

If part of Fir's trouble is training (considering soon after promotion she is even somewhat durable against wyverns and her offence is among the best) then why isn't Gonzo held back? He's strong off the bat, sure, but he's also slow and inaccurate. I can buy the training in chapter 13. I did it, and it's part of what made him not so bad, really. But, say, chapter 11. What's he doing there? Fir > Gonzo there, I should think.

Inaccurate, sure, but I don't know where you got the idea that Gonzales is slow. On equal levels he's faster than Lance.

Gonzales is doing the same thing Fir does in Ch 11, and I'd argue that he does it better. A lot of the fighters have steel axes (I count 8 out of 12), he can double those at his base speed, and after just 1 Str proc (1-2 levels, which takes 2-4 kills), he can 2HKO many of them with the iron axe. That's better than Fir who has no shot at 2HKOing whatsoever. Even with 11 Str and the steel sword she's falling way short. Fir's chances to hit are higher than Gonzo's, but Gonzo's chance to kill is higher than Fir's. After 1 Spd proc he can double most of the archers, as well, and his absurd Str lets him 2HKO with the hand axe. Even Alan and Lance struggle to match that Atk/AS combo when countering at range. Alan won't have 12 AS with a javelin until L19 (Gonzales + hand axe has 12 AS at L7-8), and Lance (even assuming +5 Atk support) won't have 24 Atk with a javelin until promotion (once again, Gonzales + hand axe has this at L7).

Keep in mind that one-rounding fighters is hard even for your top tier units, but Gonzales makes it look like child's play. For example, a dude with 39 Hp/5 Def. Lance w/ +4 Atk support and a steel sword won't 2HKO that until he's L18-19. Gonzales + steel axe 2HKOs it at base level, and he can 2HKO it with the iron axe after gaining just 2 levels, not to mention that killer axes are buyable in Ch 11 anyways.

Then you said Gonzales isn't helping us in Ch 13? How about doubling and OHKOing cavaliers with the halberd?

Echidna's probably your only other axe user, and she can't match Gonzales here. Her Str isn't high enough to OHKO, and due to losing 6 AS from the halberd she's worse than Gonzales defensively, not to mention that since she needs to hit twice, her chance to kill is actually lower than his and she's burning through the weapon's uses twice as fast. L3 Echidna + halberd has 92.2% hit on a 27 Avo cavalier, and ~85% chance to hit twice. L12 Gonzales has only 66.79% hit, but he only needs to hit at least once out of two attacks, and his chance for that is ~89%. Defensively, they have similar Def and Avo (due to halberd's weight eating up Echidna's Avo), but Gonzales has considerably more Hp. Oh, and with the halberd, Gonzales is actually faster than Echidna at the given levels by 1-2 points, can't forget that (so Echidna might not even be doubling in the first place).

What can Fir do to match that in Ch 13? Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks to me like you're seriously underestimating Gonzales. Yes, his hit is bad, but he's also pro at 2HKOing in a game where that's very difficult to do, and he's got the speed to back it up. A unit that one-rounds with shitty hit still has better offense than a unit who hits but won't kill.