FE6 HM Tier List

[Anouleth]

Chapter 17 ballistae is one of the finest examples of sucky AI I've ever seen. Right up there with the chapter 20 guy.

Try something for me: stand one outside of his range. Trust me on this. Pull out a torch next turn and see what happened to Mr. Ballista. That's right, the idiot stepped off his ballista and took his full move. Best part? Ballista costs 2 move so he can't even get back in one turn and thus acts like the ballista doesn't exist even if you move in range of the thing. And Miledy can probably ORKO the bolting dude anyway, and even if not can at least 2HKO with killers giving her crit. Thany may even be able to ORKO with silver, but she'd have less hit than Miledy w/ killer and there are wyverns around for enemy phase. Also Thany might be busy carting an unpromoted Gonzo around. Can't cart around the promoted version, though, and I found some use for being able to pick him up in that chapter.

Now, why do I call the chapter 20 (sacae) ballista "user" the finest example of dumb AI in the history of Fire Emblem? Warp a thief (preferably Cath) to the space just south of the sage with the gem. steal the gem. Base cath (thank you HM bonuses) can survive the enemy phase attack if she was barrier'd. Granted Astohl doesn't need barrier, but he could be busy with the doors to the chests or something. He actually has some semblance of durability. Now watch as the sniper leaves his post and runs towards Cath (and obviously can't reach). Now steal his Orion's Bolt and Rescue Cath out of there. The guy is so nice that he happily runs towards the thief that is only there to steal his orion's bolt, and that can only be safely accomplished because he runs towards her. Even Astohl wouldn't be able to KO the sage and then take a shot from the ballista before getting to the sniper. And the absolute best part of all? Because he is now unable to get back onto his ballista in one turn (again with the going full move and being unable to get back due to 2 cost of entering a ballista) he doesn't go back at all. The AI is so dumb that it can't recognize that a ballista is two turns away. If they can't hop on the ballista and attack that turn they won't even run towards a ballista. He spends the rest of the map happily standing in the exact same spot on which he was when Cath relieved him of the bolt.

Hahaha, wow. That's hilarious. Probably just as dumb as the Suicide Knights of Rausten and Marado, but infinitely funnier.

[Dat Nick]

Narga's post=Why I don't buy Cath's thieving redundancy being any worse than OJ's combat redundancy or Lilina's combat redundancy and most certainly not Barth's general redundancy. And why I think Low tier where the likes of useless fuckheads like Hugh Jass and Bors reside is atrocious for her.

In fact, being "redundant" at thieving is much better than being redundant at combat. I thought we stopped sandbagging the shit out of Rennac/Sothe/Legault/other 2nd string thieves a damn long time ago? Roughly the same time FE10 Marcia dropped out of High tier?

Edited April 15, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Florete]

Narga's post=Why I don't buy Cath's thieving redundancy being any worse than OJ's combat redundancy or Lilina's combat redundancy and most certainly not Barth's general redundancy. And why I think Low tier where the likes of useless fuckheads like Hugh Jass and Bors reside is atrocious for her.

In fact, being "redundant" at thieving is much better than being redundant at combat. I thought we stopped sandbagging the shit out of Rennac/Sothe/Legault/other 2nd string thieves a damn long time ago? Roughly the same time FE10 Marcia dropped out of High tier?

I agree. There's also the fact that if you can assume the possibility of someone like Alan dying, this doesn't really give someone like Treck any more reason to be in play because there are multiple replacements. But if Chad or Astol were to accidentally kick the bucket, Cath is suddenly looking a lot nicer (this can work the other way for those two as well). Considering their durability isn't the hottest as it is, being a safety precaution like that I'd say is worthy of Low Mid at worst.

[grandjackal]

Cath being lower mid due to thieving utility always being useful, especially compared to units in Low?

I can dig it.

[Colonel M]

Well it's not like I supported her being Low Tier. >_>;

So Lower Mid I assume? Top?

[grandjackal]

I dunno about the TOP of lower mid, but...Lower mid around there...Somewhere.

I hate tiering thieves.

[Narga_Rocks]

Narga's post=Why I don't buy Cath's thieving redundancy being any worse than OJ's combat redundancy or Lilina's combat redundancy and most certainly not Barth's general redundancy. And why I think Low tier where the likes of useless fuckheads like Hugh Jass and Bors reside is atrocious for her.

In fact, being "redundant" at thieving is much better than being redundant at combat. I thought we stopped sandbagging the shit out of Rennac/Sothe/Legault/other 2nd string thieves a damn long time ago? Roughly the same time FE10 Marcia dropped out of High tier?

That sage, by the way, has like 28 mt. Cath gets us 8000. Two boots, you could say. Cath has 20 hp and 3 res at base. Add Barrier and that's 30 the guy needs to OHKO her and he doesn't double, giving at least some leeway for HM bonuses for her being bad or the sage's being amazing. Chad needs to be level 7 just to get a chance at surviving. 21.1 hp and 0.9 res and +7 from barrier makes 29 and then he can probably survive. Are we really getting him 6 levels on HM?

I say this because while I can see that you are agreeing she can be useful, I'm not sure it is obvious just how much effort you need to put into Chad (he starts with E swords and 3 str) just for him to do what Cath can at base. Basically, in some chapters she is literally #2 thief when you want two thieves unless you loaded Chad full of levels. I think she comes lower cost. It's not that hard to have a chat with her but more importantly she can do things without us needing to spend the effort of feeding her exp.

[Dat Nick]

I don't think Chad should drop too far regardless because he's the only one who can net you a lot of earlygame items.

If you're trying to say Cath higher up than Lower Mid, then I'm not sure I agree with that either, because, again, she can't get you a lot of what Chad/Astol can get you, and the last time Chad skyrocketed on the tier list she fell down just as quick. Not saying it's not impossible, but baby steps at the moment.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't think Chad should drop too far regardless because he's the only one who can net you a lot of earlygame items.

If you're trying to say Cath higher up than Lower Mid, then I'm not sure I agree with that either, because, again, she can't get you a lot of what Chad/Astol can get you, and the last time Chad skyrocketed on the tier list she fell down just as quick. Not saying it's not impossible, but baby steps at the moment.

I'm thinking more

Astohl = high tier

Chad = upper mid

Cath = lower mid

Early game stuff is nice enough that he certainly deserves upper mid even if he's #2 the moment Astohl appears and #3 when Cath appears. He's the only thief that has unique time.

Not sure if Cath could get into upper mid. Though I strongly believe she's #2 from chapter 12 on, there are many times where you can just use chest and door keys. Granted it costs 5000 gold to turn Hugh into a chest opener in chapter 16, but still it's an idea and you might have other units going that direction that can't get past Douglas without being carried so they might as well just open chests. Chest keys are somewhat expensive, though, and lockpicks grow on trees and are cheaper per use so it's not always a bad idea to use two thieves even in chapter 16 if you do my idea. One steals the gems and the delphi shield while the other opens chests in the bottom left room.

(Oh, chapter 6 is probably the most annoying time to talk to Cath. But in chapter 8 her timing is pretty good for Roy to chat anyway and in chapter 12 if you open all the chests quickly she'll be running towards opening the door to the boss if it isn't yet opened and thus Roy can chat easily. Not sure what she does if all the doors are already open and all the chests are taken, though. Maybe have a unit with a chest key waiting nearby one of the two chests in the bottom left room and leave a path open then she should aim for there and you'd be able to talk to her as she comes by.)

Edited April 15, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Wait, Astol > Chad?

No. Sorry, I don't see it, and I never did. It was argued way back when and ended with Chad > Astol.

[_____]

Gotta' go with Fox. Avoiding the occasional Bolting/Purge OHKO and having pretty decent combat in the Isles doesn't make up for the cash we amount in the earlygame.

[Narga_Rocks]

Gotta' go with Fox. Avoiding the occasional Bolting/Purge OHKO and having pretty decent combat in the Isles doesn't make up for the cash we amount in the earlygame.

A bunch of vulneraries and 10 chests and maybe some doors if there are any that early? (chapter 7 chests can be opened with a chest key purchased in chapter 7 and all doors after chapter 3 can be opened with door keys purchased in chapter 5 (none in 4 or 5).)

Better durability and offence and being the better choice for thief tasks from chapter 8 until the end of the game just made me think that he'd be better. And Chad being the worst thief from chapter 12 until the end without massive training early on just makes me take issue with the idea of him being > Astohl.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Might I suggest reviewing this thread where I foolishly argued the same thing before repeating?

http://fegenesis.forummotion.com/sword-of-seals-f1/chad-vs-asthol-t73.htm

Edited April 15, 2010 by Speedwagon

[Dat Nick]

I can't read that entire thread properly because FEG 1.0 keeps freezing my browser (i dont get it either) but it's worth re-stating that any points Thunderman mentioned about Astol's offense are pretty much moot because it still sucks monkey dick, and wasting shit like Lancreaver/Armorslayer/Wyrmslayer in his hands is completely pointless, so all he has is durability. Sure, that's a more desirable quality in a thief, but you want to keep them the hell out of the way ideally anyway, and Chad is still your best 2nd string thief for a long time anyway.

lets just go through Chad's earlygame stuff again because it's pretty cool beans

15k in liquid cash (red gem steal included)

poleaxe (you know, that thing gonzo can use to blick cavs more often than doofuses like barf tray?)

killer axe (you dont have any h4x users for it yet, still...)

goddess icon (more liquid cash at worst)

silver lance (oh hai zealot, here h4x the game plox)

unlock (hay clarine stop level lagging)

short bow (which i admit is kinda meh)

Then in C8 you still need him to get half the chests, because Astol can only be in one spot at a time. And there's cool shit in both rooms.

Elysian Whip

Chest

Secret Book

Chest

Silver Axe

Chest

Guiding Ring

Chest

Light Brand

Chest

Killer Bow

Chest

Elfire

Chest

Knight's Crest

Chest

I'd like to not miss out on half of this, wouldn't you? And I'd also like to take care of it quicker, wouldn't you? And that's what Chad does. Just because Astol is your better thief for the time Cath doesn't exist yet doesn't make Chad any less helpful as a 2nd string thief, considering how virtually every chapter with chests in this game has them all divided in two rooms far off from each other.

And frankly, all this shit Chad gets you during the time Astol doesn't exist (and half of C8 in the time Astol DOES exist) at least outweighs Astol taking one more hit when he shouldn't be getting hit anyway. There's bolting which is unavoidable, but with all the axemen around earlygame (and in 12x) I'm finding it very hard to believe Chad cannot get any CEXP at all, but I'm just covering the easy part now, the treasures he's entitled to.

Work now. More on this shit later.

[Anouleth]

Chad is earning more than enough money in earlygame that we can buy him a C16 Seraph Robe, several times over in fact. Then it's Seraph Robe Chad + all the other stuff he stole for us in earlygame vs Astohl or Cath. I think it's fairly obvious that Chad is winning that comparison, by a wide margin. Maybe not vs Astohl, since Astohl has 25HP/3RES to Chad's 23HP/0RES. Maybe Chad needs to spend more of his cash on a second Robe, but even then he still has some funds advantage and actually a minor durability advantage, so he doesn't always need a Barrier or a Ward. Needs more healing, though, since his avoid is still worse. Oh well, he's still ahead.

[-Cynthia-]

@ Anouleth That durability boost won't help him until C16 anyway, which is kind of too late to make much of a difference. Also if Chad uses the money to but himself a Serpah Robe it kind of cancels out his contribution, since all he did was help himself.

I don't see how Astohl's offense/defense is really that bad, at least for a while.

Base Astohl (Steel Sword) 25 HP 15 Atk 13 AS 7 Def 3 Res

Base Noah (Steel Sword) 27 HP 16 Atk 9 AS 7 Def 1 Res

They have about the same durability, but Astohl does about double the damage. Astohl can also switch to a lighter weapon to get more AS, Noah can't. I guess Noah can switch to Lances--and gain WTD against all the axe users.

"Sucking monkey dick" is a little too harsh on Astohl's offense. He can nearly ORKO most of the axe enemies (like 22/30 usuallhy), which isn't too bad since not many people ORKO them cleanly anyway (unpromoted Lance for example does not, and he's the top character on the list here).

I'm not saying Astohl is the greatest combatant in the history of the universe (though he has enough sword rank for Killers so that gives him some use after they show up), but to act as if his offense is a completely superfluous lead ignores the facts. He's a sword user who doubles right before the part of the game with the most axes.

The chapters after Chad joins aren't all that axe heavy, more lances than anything else. Ch5 is, and while Chad can face low hit rates here, a lot of the enemies can ORKO him if he's near base (and he's very hard to level in C2/C3), making him not so durable. Plus he's still like 3-4RKOIng and can actually be worse if he's not doubling, both of which can happen. Training Chad takes a lot of effort and kill feeding when we have lots of other people to give kills to, Astohl arrives ready for the Western Isles.

Edited April 15, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Anouleth]

@ Anouleth That durability boost won't help him until C16 anyway, which is kind of too late to make much of a difference. Also if Chad uses the money to but himself a Serpah Robe it kind of cancels out his contribution, since all he did was help himself.

Funny, because C16 is the first chapter with both chests and a Bolting user, at least in NM, I don't know if Bolting enemies show up earlier in HM. I don't remember if base level Chad can steal the Red Gems, but if he can, he can go left and do that, avoiding the Bolting Mage towards the right. So I guess Astohl has a lead in Chapter 16, but Chad has everything he stole -8000 gold for two Seraph Robes, and a minor lead in every chapter thereon due to better durability. So Chad's lead is 5000G, the Poleax, the Silver Lance, the Killer Axe, the Goddess Icon, the Unlock, the Short Bow, the Wyvern Rider's Red Gem, and some Vulneraries. Everything else can be gotten with Keys, but Chad still helps. Astohl's lead is some mediocre combat and being able to go right in C16.

It's also worth noting that while Chad is technically stealing us 8000 gold and then using 8000 gold in C16, there's no guarantee it has to be the same gold. Chad will generously let us borrow that 8000 until he wants the Robes, so he's also giving us a loan of 8000 between C6 and C16.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Anouleth

[-Cynthia-]

So even if we give Chad the Robe(s) because he got us some money in the fist few chapters (which I dee as double-counting but w/e), there are only 2 more chest maps for the rest of the game IIRC. He can't even damage enemies any more, so obviously not helping with the combat even with that HP total. So Chad wins:

The first few chapters for getting stuff

The last few chapters for having more durability, though this requires him decreasing his usefulness from the first few chapters (spending most of the gold he got)

Astohl has

C8

C12

C16

Actually useful combat throughout C9-C16, he's kind of inferior after the route split.

I'd give it to Astohl personally.

Edited April 15, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Anouleth]

So even if we give Chad the Robe(s) because he got us some money in the fist few chapters (which I dee as double-counting but w/e), there are only 2 more chest maps for the rest of the game IIRC. He can't even damage enemies any more, so obviously not helping with the combat even with that HP total. So Chad wins:

It's not double-counting. If Chad gives us 8000 gold in C6, then he takes away 8000 in C16, then he's given us a 8000 'loan', so we can spend it and make up for it with the C16 treasures (there's two Red Gems and a Blue Gem in that chapter, so we will definitely have enough money to buy the Robes). But Chad doesn't give us 8000 gold, he gives us more like 18000, plus some cool weapons and an Icon.

Even if Chad can't deal damage, we're not fielding him or Astohl for their OMG great offense. Generally, they'll spend most of their time on the chests anyway, they'll be too busy to attack stuff.

The first few chapters for getting stuff

The last few chapters for having more durability, though this requires him decreasing his usefulness from the first few chapters (spending most of the gold he got)

Astohl has

C8

C12

C16

Actually useful combat throughout C9-C16, he's kind of inferior after the route split.

I'd give it to Astohl personally.

They may as well be tied in C12, since Astohl's durability isn't helpful, and the Thieves will spend all their time in the treasure room. Even if he had time to fight stuff, he's a liability against all the enemies in the walls due to lack of 2-range. I'll give you C8, but we will probably not be using either for combat since they lack 2-range for the mages/archers and deal awful damage to the armors. Astohl won't double Mercs either iirc, so he's not very good there either. So I guess Astohl's better combat is only useful against Mercs, and even then it's still nothing special.

So a good win in C16 and a minor win in C8, versus all the stuff that Chad brings - 10000 gold, an 8000 'loan', Poleaxe, Killer Axe, Silver Lance, Unlock, and a Goddess Icon. I think those things are far more vital than Chad needing to be rescued past the Bolting Mage in C16 and a bit of not-very-amazing combat in C8. I mean, without Chad, we have 5000 to go around until C7. 9000 if we sell the Seraph Robe. You'd struggle to make ends meet before C8, and even after that you'd probably need to sell the Secret Book.

So really, Astohl needs to make up for a 10000 deficit, and this is me being generous with Robes, Chad can make do with one or two levels and a single Robe, which turns it into a 14000 deficit. Chad isn't Barth, I don't need to bring an elephant with me to carry him in C16. I can't understand how Astohl is an entire tier above Chad on this list.

(I made a mistake in C16, there's a Purge Bishop on the left, so I have to get someone to rescue Chad past the Bolting mage on the right. Just as well, since Chad probably needs some levelling to be able to steal the Gems. Oh, and he can't steal the Member Card or Elixir from Hugh either without some levelling, so we need to spend 5000 gold to recruit him. Funny, Chad still has more cash on his side going for him than Astohl.)

[Narga_Rocks]

Might I suggest reviewing this thread where I foolishly argued the same thing before repeating?

http://fegenesis.forummotion.com/sword-of-seals-f1/chad-vs-asthol-t73.htm

I really don't understand why that thread involved leveling Chad. How is that remotely efficient? I suppose maybe having Chad deal 2 or 3 damage to something lets you use a more accurate weapon with another unit, but that still results in giving Chad a kill or having him take a counter.

Astohl starting with C swords probably isn't a big deal until chapter 13, but trading at certain points might let him take a swing with a killing edge like once or twice.

And why does that thread act like chest keys and Cath don't exist? I suppose it was assuming feeding Chad kills for some odd reason which makes him better than Cath when she arrives, but really? What's the point? If Fir is somehow not allowed to get raised seriously without apparently having some enormous cost (and she'll be >>> Chad offensively and durably in like 2 seconds) then I see no reason to dump exp into Chad when you have Astohl in chapter 8 to replace him and Cath as a second thief from chapter 12 on. Even as early as chapter 7 you can start using chest keys instead of Chad. You could technically use neither for chests but there is stuff to steal and while I think having thief + chest keys isn't too expensive (or it is a worthwhile price to pay for not having to field Chad), chest keys + chest keys probably is too expensive (especially with all the stuff to steal).

And I really don't buy giving Chad robes just because of the money he gets early on like in chapter 3 and 6.

(Also, about those chests in chapter 3: is it even possible to open both chests faster than you could capture the throne? The Halberd may be better than the 3000 gold, so is the 3000 gold saving us two turns later on? Chapter 6 has the same problem. Dondon gave up on two chests and it still cost him an extra turn for 1 more chest. That's already 4 extra turns if you want to award him with all those chests.)

Also, those Robes could go elsewhere and do a much better job. You'll probably get more "utility" out of that 8000 gold by having Clarine and even Lalum taking the two robes than Chad when you get little benefit. Boosting his durability to non-horrid levels doesn't really mean much. If he's not winning (and I don't think he is) just off what he does before chapter 8 then I don't see how making his pre-chapter 8 contributions even worse overall would let him suddenly start winning.

Also, @Anouleth: in this game, unlike other games, you don't need more spd to steal stuff. If you did, stealing from Narshen would require raising at least one of your thieves to 19 spd which would be a major pain. Also, Chad wouldn't be able to steal Cath's lockpick (twice) either.

edit: Also, Cath and Astohl exist. Even if you needed more spd to steal crap, you'd still be able to steal from Hugh without raising Chad anyway.

(Question for those that have recruited Cath: Is it just me or do the thieves that show up with Cath in chapters 16, 20, and 22 never ever show up if you recruited her in chapter 12? I've read from one of you that if you kill Cath the thieves show up and there is a replacement for her, but I would have thought the same happened if she is recruited. However, I have not seen thieves in those chapters, even if some chests/doors remained to be opened when they were scheduled to appear.)

Edited April 16, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

I really don't understand why that thread involved leveling Chad. How is that remotely efficient? I suppose maybe having Chad deal 2 or 3 damage to something lets you use a more accurate weapon with another unit, but that still results in giving Chad a kill or having him take a counter.

I don't understand how having Astol fight is remotely efficient either, but if he can do it so can Chad.

And why does that thread act like chest keys and Cath don't exist?

Um, what thread are you reading? Post #21:

But holy hell, I missed an extremely important point. Chest Keys. Buyable at Ch 7, 5 uses a shot. Thieves may as well be obsolete at this point entirely. If deploying the statistically superior unit is the better idea, I'm sure as hell I can find someone better than Astol by Ch 8 to take some Chest Keys, like Zealot or Marcus. If you want to spin the "Thieves are free" argument, bblader already showed that Chad gets you about 20k on his own, which can pay for 35 chests immediately, which can be seen as Chad's continuing contribution. Oh wait, he can steal one in Ch 6 as well, so 40. Are there even that many chests left in the game? And then there are times where you'll need a second Thief anyway so you it's not like you'll actually be buying that many Chest Keys unless you deploy two units with Chest Keys, which, if the situation calls for it, you might as well.

This doesn't need to be done right away either. More Chest Keys are buyable at Ch 11 and 15 to allow you to keep well equipped.

So even with Chad (and Cath) out of the picture, Astol does not have full claim to the remaining chests.

If Fir is somehow not allowed to get raised seriously without apparently having some enormous cost (and she'll be >>> Chad offensively and durably in like 2 seconds) then I see no reason to dump exp into Chad when you have Astohl in chapter 8 to replace him and Cath as a second thief from chapter 12 on.

Who said that about Fir? I mostly scan this topic so I might have missed that, but that doesn't make any sense.

Even as early as chapter 7 you can start using chest keys instead of Chad. You could technically use neither for chests but there is stuff to steal and while I think having thief + chest keys isn't too expensive (or it is a worthwhile price to pay for not having to field Chad), chest keys + chest keys probably is too expensive (especially with all the stuff to steal).

So what are you basing Astol > Chad on? Astol's combat vs. Chad's earlygame thieving? How the hell can Astol win that one when his combat is not good nor getting any better?

(Also, about those chests in chapter 3: is it even possible to open both chests faster than you could capture the throne? The Halberd may be better than the 3000 gold, so is the 3000 gold saving us two turns later on? Chapter 6 has the same problem. Dondon gave up on two chests and it still cost him an extra turn for 1 more chest. That's already 4 extra turns if you want to award him with all those chests.)

You don't have too much money at the beginning, so I would think taking an extra turn for 3k would be well worth the trouble. Taking down the boss isn't too easy iirc anyway, so it actually might just take that long.

[Colonel M]

(Question for those that have recruited Cath: Is it just me or do the thieves that show up with Cath in chapters 16, 20, and 22 never ever show up if you recruited her in chapter 12? I've read from one of you that if you kill Cath the thieves show up and there is a replacement for her, but I would have thought the same happened if she is recruited. However, I have not seen thieves in those chapters, even if some chests/doors remained to be opened when they were scheduled to appear.)

I killed her and the thieves have never showed up since.

[Dat Nick]

Buying Chad a robe anyway is just reducing his net profit since he'll probably replaced by Cath, so don't do it. I'm not arguing that Chad is useful for anything but 19k in liquid funds plus promotion items earlygame (And Halberd. Gonzo like Halberd. With Halberd, GONZO SMASH CAVS! TWICE!) and maybe a stat booster depending on which room he looted in C8 (the one Astol didn't). It's just too much for a durability lead to negate, really. If Astol>Chad, so be it, but all of what Chad nets you earlygame doesn't justify Astol with less shittier combat being a tier up.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Anouleth]

And I really don't buy giving Chad robes just because of the money he gets early on like in chapter 3 and 6.

(Also, about those chests in chapter 3: is it even possible to open both chests faster than you could capture the throne? The Halberd may be better than the 3000 gold, so is the 3000 gold saving us two turns later on? Chapter 6 has the same problem. Dondon gave up on two chests and it still cost him an extra turn for 1 more chest. That's already 4 extra turns if you want to award him with all those chests.)

Also, those Robes could go elsewhere and do a much better job. You'll probably get more "utility" out of that 8000 gold by having Clarine and even Lalum taking the two robes than Chad when you get little benefit. Boosting his durability to non-horrid levels doesn't really mean much. If he's not winning (and I don't think he is) just off what he does before chapter 8 then I don't see how making his pre-chapter 8 contributions even worse overall would let him suddenly start winning.

I know it's a horrible use of 8000, just so Chad can take a Bolting to the face and not die instantly, but it's more about making the comparison palatable. If Chad can be used inefficiently and emulate Astohl and probably still have a resource lead, then surely using him efficiently will make him even better? I don't really accept that Astohl's C8/9/12x combat is sooooo useful that a resource lead of at least 15k and potentially more is cancelled out. Certainly not to the point where Astohl is a tier higher. Sure, we will ditch Chad for Astohl, but ditching Caineghis for Volug hardly makes Caineghis better than Volug.

I don't know, if someone could demonstrate that Astohl is necessary to catch the C12x Thief and make him cough up his tasty Elixirs, then I might accept Astohl>Chad, but as it is, Astohl is not stealing or giving us anything that Chad cannot.

Also, @Anouleth: in this game, unlike other games, you don't need more spd to steal stuff. If you did, stealing from Narshen would require raising at least one of your thieves to 19 spd which would be a major pain. Also, Chad wouldn't be able to steal Cath's lockpick (twice) either.

edit: Also, Cath and Astohl exist. Even if you needed more spd to steal crap, you'd still be able to steal from Hugh without raising Chad anyway.

(Question for those that have recruited Cath: Is it just me or do the thieves that show up with Cath in chapters 16, 20, and 22 never ever show up if you recruited her in chapter 12? I've read from one of you that if you kill Cath the thieves show up and there is a replacement for her, but I would have thought the same happened if she is recruited. However, I have not seen thieves in those chapters, even if some chests/doors remained to be opened when they were scheduled to appear.)

Gee, now I just feel silly for ever training Astohl. Well, I got to see his awesome Igrene support, so it's cool.

But this only closes the gap between Astohl and Chad. I was worried that Chad might have to pay for recruiting Hugh, or miss one of the Red Gems, since he might not be able to steal the Card or Gem. He still has to go right on C16 though, and needs a rescue past Monsieur Bolting.

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't understand how having Astol fight is remotely efficient either, but if he can do it so can Chad.

He can nab a steel sword with 2 spd loss and fight random stuff while on the way to random things. I have no issue with Chad doing the same before chapter 8. I have issue with attempting to raise either of them. Notice my complaint was about leveling Chad, not using him to poke at things when he's not stealing. On occasion he'll be useful like when a unit can take decent hit rates and come up short and maybe Chad kills a few things and when he can take a hit will poke at something and take a counter. And archers he can fearlessly weaken. But Astohl is better at it and better for longer without needing effort. Cath and Astohl are like the royals of thieving. They need less effort to get to a certain level of durability/offence. Okay, using the word "royals" is an exaggeration, but the point is they take little effort to use efficiently since they start durable enough to take things like sage attacks in chapter 20. Okay, Cath can't take a bolting sage in chapter 20, but she can take anything else they can throw at her. Maybe I should call them the fe10 Zihark of thieving. Edward is just not useful anymore once you get Zihark. Edward helped a bunch in chapters 1-P to 1-4 and yet look where he is. I daresay you'd have a much easier time getting through the first 6 chapters of fe6 without Chad than you would getting through the first 2 or 3 chapters of fe10 if Ed dropped off the face of the earth (or whatever planet fe10 happens on).

Again, it's not that I take issue with either of them fighting, I take issue with going out of your way to raise either of them. Astohl can actually earn more kills early on when he's doing his fighting to help out thing so as a result he may well level more than Chad, but that's just a result of their stats. If Astohl gets to have crit-time with a killing edge as a result of not sucking offensively then that doesn't mean I should work hard to get Chad to C swords just so I am being "even".

Um, what thread are you reading? Post #21:

But holy hell, I missed an extremely important point. Chest Keys. Buyable at Ch 7, 5 uses a shot. Thieves may as well be obsolete at this point entirely. If deploying the statistically superior unit is the better idea, I'm sure as hell I can find someone better than Astol by Ch 8 to take some Chest Keys, like Zealot or Marcus. If you want to spin the "Thieves are free" argument, bblader already showed that Chad gets you about 20k on his own, which can pay for 35 chests immediately, which can be seen as Chad's continuing contribution. Oh wait, he can steal one in Ch 6 as well, so 40. Are there even that many chests left in the game? And then there are times where you'll need a second Thief anyway so you it's not like you'll actually be buying that many Chest Keys unless you deploy two units with Chest Keys, which, if the situation calls for it, you might as well.

Okay, sorry, parts of it act like they don't exist. scan for stuff about chapter 8 and chapter 12 and 16. Without reading it fully, I'd assume you never posted like they didn't exist, but you are generally more thorough/honest than some others.

This doesn't need to be done right away either. More Chest Keys are buyable at Ch 11 and 15 to allow you to keep well equipped.

So even with Chad (and Cath) out of the picture, Astol does not have full claim to the remaining chests.

Well, yeah, but I still recommend not using only chest keys. Just for one part of the map. It would be annoying, for example, to spend the money to buy enough chest keys to do things like open all the chests in chapter 16 (though I have done that once). I'd think ~half the remaining chests are up for grabs from chapter 8 on.

Who said that about Fir? I mostly scan this topic so I might have missed that, but that doesn't make any sense.

Well, she's not allowed any cool weapons and apparently the beginning hurts so much that being as much better than Echidna from chapter 17 (sacae) till the end of the game as Echidna may have been over Fir at the beginning still results in a tier gap in favour of Echidna on the sacae list. I can't pull out a post that says anything like that explicitly, but it seems like one of the more logical conclusions from the events.

So what are you basing Astol > Chad on? Astol's combat vs. Chad's earlygame thieving? How the hell can Astol win that one when his combat is not good nor getting any better?

I'm basing it on Astohl being the better thief to use from chapter 8 till the end of the game. Chest keys, in my opinion:

Even as early as chapter 7 you can start using chest keys instead of Chad. You could technically use neither for chests but there is stuff to steal and while I think having thief + chest keys isn't too expensive (or it is a worthwhile price to pay for not having to field Chad), chest keys + chest keys probably is too expensive (especially with all the stuff to steal).

In the thing you quoted I basically said that you are better off with one thief along the way than just using chest keys when there is so much to open (chapter 7 has just two chests and so doesn't fall victim to this, especially since you can probably do it faster with at least opening one of the chests with a key), so why'd you say I'm only basing Astohl > Chad on combat? I think being the best thief for 10+ chapters when you only need 1 thief (except 20s, and maybe even then) should be worth something. Okay, I guess I retract my statement about wanting Chad in upper mid because there is a lot of money to be had before chapter 7, but even so I think Astohl > Chad. I'm not sure how much everything is worth from chapter 7 till the end of the game, but if you take half of it and give 60% credit to Astohl and 25% to Cath and 15% to Chad (Astohl is that much better for the job) and consider his combat wins in the isles, isn't that enough to consider Astohl > Chad?

You don't have too much money at the beginning, so I would think taking an extra turn for 3k would be well worth the trouble. Taking down the boss isn't too easy iirc anyway, so it actually might just take that long.

Armorslayer means that unless you get really unlucky you are probably only opening one chest before Roy could, in theory, seize. Hence, one turn cost.

Anouleth:

Well, 12x I used Astohl, but I don't remember if he even got attacked while I was stealing the lockpick and the dude's two items he took. Really it just takes Lalum and Zealot and Rutger, I think. Well, a little help from Thany and another mount for some rescue action, I think, but I'm not 100% sure that Astohl is needed for it. He might be, though, as I think he might get attacked and you'd probably need to get Chad to level 10+ to survive if my Astohl did get attacked.

And it's not dumping Volug for Caineghis, it's more like dumping Edward for Zihark. Astohl has that much availability. If you could drop Volug in 1-8 for Caineghis and get Caineghis for all Volug's remaining chapters, don't you think that would be enough for Caineghis > Volug?

Also, it doesn't really close the gap. Astohl also doesn't need training, making him a significantly more efficient thief from chapter 8 on since he's actually somewhat durable near base level for a while. Mine's level 12 in chapter 22. He's got exactly 2 levels and 60 extra exp since chapter 8. Yeah.

And why don't people kill that bolting sage on turn 1 in chapter 16? I suppose it takes Lalum to pull it off, or a promoted shin rather than a tier 1 shin, but it's not hard if you were conservative with the longbow. Also good for chapter 16x, though I think that guy was a 3HKO and this guy was a 2HKO. I don't exactly remember for certain.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Narga_Rocks