FE6 HM Tier List

[dondon151]

What is the current argument again? These posts are long and windy.

[Narga_Rocks]

What is the current argument again? These posts are long and windy.

Oh, sorry. I dropped the whole Chad to upper mid thing because it is a fair amount of money at the start. Now all I'm saying is Astohl > Chad but that's it. Well, I still want Cath in low mid, but that's not too important right now and none of the more recent posts have been about that anyway.

[Dat Nick]

Then I don't care enough about the situation to defend Chad>Astol even though that's what I personally believe. I can always argue against it later if I get bored/get enough free time. Getting Cath to Low Mid is more important atm (and I'd like to get it over with ASAP, I don't want this to be another Merlinus incident where we talk about nothing but thief utility for 15 pages)

[dondon151]

Astohl > Chad is all about combat vs. thieving. Chad has his monopoly period, and I would actually say that Astohl is optimal deployment in the Western Isles for combat (he has 6 move!). So it's all subjective and very difficult to argue. I don't think it would hurt the team much if Astohl were replaced, though, whereas Chad not doing anything does have some pretty severe repercussions.

[Anouleth]

Anouleth:

Well, 12x I used Astohl, but I don't remember if he even got attacked while I was stealing the lockpick and the dude's two items he took. Really it just takes Lalum and Zealot and Rutger, I think. Well, a little help from Thany and another mount for some rescue action, I think, but I'm not 100% sure that Astohl is needed for it. He might be, though, as I think he might get attacked and you'd probably need to get Chad to level 10+ to survive if my Astohl did get attacked.

Iron Sword Chad could conceivably dodge a Hand Axe. Maybe not the Shamans, but can he take a hit while Holy Watered? Iirc, all the first chest on the right contains is an Antitoxin, so I'd rather leave it to distract some dumb thief who didn't use serenesforest to find out that the other chests have Gems. Silly Thieves. At least they're not FE DS thieves who like to steal one item and then skedaddle, leaving all the other chests. These Thieves are greedy bastards who take whatever's nearest until they can't carry any more.

And it's not dumping Volug for Caineghis, it's more like dumping Edward for Zihark. Astohl has that much availability. If you could drop Volug in 1-8 for Caineghis and get Caineghis for all Volug's remaining chapters, don't you think that would be enough for Caineghis > Volug?

Well, it's not even dumping Edward for Zihark. It's more like dumping Ellen for Saul - sure, Saul is better, but healing is healing and what's important is that it gets done. I really shouldn't have used that Royal analogy, because it implies there's some insurmountable gap between Chad and Astohl when really it's just durability for Bolting and Light Brand.

Also, it doesn't really close the gap. Astohl also doesn't need training, making him a significantly more efficient thief from chapter 8 on since he's actually somewhat durable near base level for a while. Mine's level 12 in chapter 22. He's got exactly 2 levels and 60 extra exp since chapter 8. Yeah.

The efficient playthrough will of course use both Chad and Astohl, and ditch Chad for Astohl, but that's because Astohl has minor advantages. If Astohl didn't exist, we'd shrug our shoulders and Seraph Robe Chad, like Lalum and Clarine and other utility characters that can't eat a Bolting... or use Cath, and maybe we take an extra turn on C9 but probably not, enemy density is pretty low. If Chad doesn't exist, suddenly we're poor forever and ever and we need to play like we're S Ranking FE7 on ENM. This is a massive gap in contributions - in fact, screw Ellen vs Saul. This is Matthew vs Legault, only with less attractive people. Obviously Chad can't auto-top, nothing he can steal is quite as absurdly valuable as the Silver Card. But he's close.

And why don't people kill that bolting sage on turn 1 in chapter 16? I suppose it takes Lalum to pull it off, or a promoted shin rather than a tier 1 shin, but it's not hard if you were conservative with the longbow. Also good for chapter 16x, though I think that guy was a 3HKO and this guy was a 2HKO. I don't exactly remember for certain.

I don't know, I remember my Igrene could 2HKO the guy on Normal Mode, but that's not much to go on. I wasn't sure about Hard Mode, so I didn't mention it.

[Narga_Rocks]

Astohl > Chad is all about combat vs. thieving. Chad has his monopoly period, and I would actually say that Astohl is optimal deployment in the Western Isles for combat (he has 6 move!). So it's all subjective and very difficult to argue. I don't think it would hurt the team much if Astohl were replaced, though, whereas Chad not doing anything does have some pretty severe repercussions.

In that vein, how about Marcus > Chad? I don't really care what else happens with Chad and Astohl all that much, I suppose, and Cath really does need to go to somewhere (don't know where) in lower mid. Cath is like sothe in fe9, really.

Marcus > Astohl > Chad. Or Marcus > Chad > Astohl.

I suppose this goes back to my Marcus > Echidna goal. Getting him above the thieves is one step closer.

Well, that wasn't the point. The point really is about Chad and Astohl. Anyway, as long as Marcus is still under Chad and Astohl, I'd think Astohl > Chad is reasonable. If we focus on how important Chad's contribution is for like 2 and a bit chapters (3 and 6 and 1 red gem in 7) then look at all Marcus is doing. At the very least, Chad > Marcus > Astohl would be more consistent.

Anouleth:

That bolting sage in chapter 16 is 2HKOd by an average level 19 or 20 shin (who doubles quite easily). A 16/1 or something shin shouldn't have much difficulty, either. The only one I have my doubts on is Mr. 16x.

As for 12x, the only thief you really need to worry about is the middle one. The left can be OHKOd by silver sword Dieck, though hit rates are low 80s high 70s. The bottom right one is simple enough to deal with. The middle one will almost certainly grab two chests before you can get to him. Now, I suppose I haven't tried leaving the first chest to the right closed and hoping that he'll run towards it. If he does then that would make it way way easier to grab his lockpick. It depends on if there is a closer chest, and there is:

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=es&tl=en&u=http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6/guiafe6/cap12x.htm&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhjy2UEXMuSdciVgsUpDwYQwb9zuKw

He'll probably go like this:

4, 3, 8, 10, (doesn't matter anymore). Either that or 4, 3, 8, 7, doesn't matter anymore.

Elixir, Antitoxin, Elixir, Red Gem or Lockpick.

Well, guess he probably starts with a sword and a lockpick so he probably only grabs Elixir, Antitoxin, Elixir, and then tries to run away (wherever "away" is).

btw: Anyone miss fe5 thieves that had either a rapier or a killing edge most of the time and you could grab their weapons? Great suppliers.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

Marcus can still go up, probably.

[Colonel M]

Well, she's not allowed any cool weapons and apparently the beginning hurts so much that being as much better than Echidna from chapter 17 (sacae) till the end of the game as Echidna may have been over Fir at the beginning still results in a tier gap in favour of Echidna on the sacae list. I can't pull out a post that says anything like that explicitly, but it seems like one of the more logical conclusions from the events.

Woah woah woah. I didn't want it interpreted like that. Fir is allowed to use the Wo Dao, it's that she does not have the "exclusive right". In other words: she cannot expend all of it. For example, if I am given the option between KOing the Mercenary with the Wo Dao (with Rutgar) because it is at full health, then I'll do so. If Rutgar's action is already taken, then Fir can use it. Her beginning doesn't hurt (you're reading my debate too much; I told you why I had to go against her: the switch is kind of turned on atm and won't be off until the debate is done). It's that assuming skyhigh levels like Inui did are hard to accomplish. I couldn't do it as easily with Gonzales (and granted, he does have the Hit issue going on), but before people were assuming the dude could get an astronomical amount of levels from just one chapter. He can, just only on Chapter 13. He's also exclusive to that because no one else can sit on a Peak (unless you promoted Geese which is a big no no). Fir doesn't really have instances like that. Most of the chapters where she is good she has to plow ahead. There's little to deal with reinforcements: hell the only ones that actually sprout are Chapter 10s, and if we really wanted to get stingy about it a promoted Thany could clog up the fort. Of course, even if you do this chances are the Pirates won't reach you unless you're moving very sluggish. I also explained that it is best to kill Oro ASAP: in other words, you should never see the Brigand reinforcements. I was also in agreement that Echinda is not as great in Sacae, a.k.a. she can likely lever down a tier. The only saving grace is that she gets a large amount of levels (enough for +2 Spd) then a Speedwing, which even I have to admit is a little loony to assume.

Now, if you speak Ilia, there's actually a more logical difference. In the same vein of her getting the Hero Crest, why would you deny Echinda the Body Ring? There are very few people that actually gain a net positive out of this. Then other units, like Thany, lose the capabilities of carrying units (Dieck, her support partner possibly). It does mean that Echinda can't be carried by Miredy now, I guess, which can cause a problem with Rescue chaining. That's the only instance where it would actually hurt her though.

[Narga_Rocks]

Woah woah woah. I didn't want it interpreted like that. Fir is allowed to use the Wo Dao, it's that she does not have the "exclusive right". In other words: she cannot expend all of it. For example, if I am given the option between KOing the Mercenary with the Wo Dao (with Rutgar) because it is at full health, then I'll do so. If Rutgar's action is already taken, then Fir can use it. Her beginning doesn't hurt (you're reading my debate too much; I told you why I had to go against her: the switch is kind of turned on atm and won't be off until the debate is done). It's that assuming skyhigh levels like Inui did are hard to accomplish. I couldn't do it as easily with Gonzales (and granted, he does have the Hit issue going on), but before people were assuming the dude could get an astronomical amount of levels from just one chapter. He can, just only on Chapter 13. He's also exclusive to that because no one else can sit on a Peak (unless you promoted Geese which is a big no no). Fir doesn't really have instances like that. Most of the chapters where she is good she has to plow ahead. There's little to deal with reinforcements: hell the only ones that actually sprout are Chapter 10s, and if we really wanted to get stingy about it a promoted Thany could clog up the fort. Of course, even if you do this chances are the Pirates won't reach you unless you're moving very sluggish. I also explained that it is best to kill Oro ASAP: in other words, you should never see the Brigand reinforcements. I was also in agreement that Echinda is not as great in Sacae, a.k.a. she can likely lever down a tier. The only saving grace is that she gets a large amount of levels (enough for +2 Spd) then a Speedwing, which even I have to admit is a little loony to assume.

@bold: Aren't you running the list? Fix it.

Anyway, I'd assume the wo dao is primarily equipped on Fir, and if you need to do something special and decide that the wo dao is better for it than the killing edge or the edge is broken then Rutger may get it for a turn or two. I'd also assume you try to keep uses of the wo dao for some bosses in sacae. Like, 4 or 5 for then. It helps you get one in chapter 19 though. Anyway, not sure what levels Inui had and mine were slightly inflated because I'm paranoid about crits so the boss of chapter 9 took like 5 turns or something stupid like that allowing Fir to get some levels there from pirates. I also let her use the wo dao a tiny bit in chapter 9 as a bit of a crutch and then try to mostly avoid using it with either her or Rutger for a bit. In other words, she takes like 5 or so swings in chapter 9 and then the two of them pull like 1 or 2 a chapter or less and I keep 3 or 4 for sacae. Chapter 18 boss = jerk. Chapter 18 boss get double-critted. Well, it's not so much that he's annoying, it's that if I step into the rings without beating the chapter on that turn (Lalum required for Roy so she can't help with anything else) then I'm stuck with random reinforcements targeting Lalum or someone like that.

(Oh, I should probably say I guess I average above 1.5 uses of the wo dao until chapter 13, then the average drops to near 0)

Anyway, it shouldn't be too hard to get her to at least level 17 for chapter 16, should it?

Anyway, I think I saw one brigand in chapter 11 and while I may have used Fir to kill it, I might have used shin or someone too.

Chapter 10 I don't think I bothered with them. Well, no, I think I may have killed like one or two. Don't know if it was Fir. If it was, though, I had her near the middle bridge. Meaning I could have stuck her closer to where they get on land and still killed two but finished the map two turns earlier. Though really, I didn't do badly in that chapter anyway.

I don't like promoted Thany anyway. 20/8 Thany is better than an 11/10 Thany any day, and I don't use her much for killing axe stuff on chapters 10 and 11. I kill bow dudes with her in chapter 10 anyway. 2HKO ballista dude with silver lance doubling Thany. Robe Thany with C Lot + C Dieck can take one hit from the ballista, too.

Now, if you speak Ilia, there's actually a more logical difference. In the same vein of her getting the Hero Crest, why would you deny Echinda the Body Ring? There are very few people that actually gain a net positive out of this. Then other units, like Thany, lose the capabilities of carrying units (Dieck, her support partner possibly). It does mean that Echinda can't be carried by Miredy now, I guess, which can cause a problem with Rescue chaining. That's the only instance where it would actually hurt her though.

I don't care too much about Ilia. If you think there's a tier then maybe.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Colonel M]

@bold: Aren't you running the list? Fix it.

:/

It's not that easy to keep track of all the arguments. Kind of why I like that other website for making arguments: I can read them without being sidetracked.

Yes, I'll make the change. I'll put Marcus > Gonzales too, since no one in here seemed to openly object to it.

Stuff about Fir

I'm probably not the best person to ask about some of this. Like I've stated: my mind is sort of corrupt with the arguing against Fir thing, so I will likely pull more negatives at her than positives. So, don't take it personal or anything. It's why I'm not a fan of debates overall. I also haven't used her seriously before like you have, so another thing that sort of dents my case. I probably have a much larger team than necessary (but to be fair on myself, this is because I'm prepping for two routes instead of the usual one). I sort of wish I did use her though, if only because I could be a bit more safer with what level she would possibly be in what chapter.

I just don't want the card "smash is to sandbagging Mia as Colonel M is to sandbagging Fir" or however the saying goes. Don't want a Narga and a Fox pissed at me.

What really sucks though is what I found out about Chapter 16's Armor Knights.

Yeah... I thought they were a lot weaker than that too. :/

---

As for the thieves, I honestly think that Chad > Asthol, then the tier separation with Cath. I don't know if I want the thieves down a tier yet (notice that High Tier is not very big). Feel free to prove me wrong on that. Also need a good stepping stone for Cath.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Colonel M

[Narga_Rocks]

:/

It's not that easy to keep track of all the arguments. Kind of why I like that other website for making arguments: I can read them without being sidetracked.

True.

Yes, I'll make the change. I'll put Marcus > Gonzales too, since no one in here seemed to openly object to it.

The main person defending Gonzo >> Fir was cats, who would probably be happy with Marcus in top tier. Okay, I don't know that for sure, and I'm sure if he does he has a good reason so I shouldn't sound so insulting.

I'm probably not the best person to ask about some of this. Like I've stated: my mind is sort of corrupt with the arguing against Fir thing, so I will likely pull more negatives at her than positives. So, don't take it personal or anything. It's why I'm not a fan of debates overall. I also haven't used her seriously before like you have, so another thing that sort of dents my case. I probably have a much larger team than necessary (but to be fair on myself, this is because I'm prepping for two routes instead of the usual one). I sort of wish I did use her though, if only because I could be a bit more safer with what level she would possibly be in what chapter.

I would probably need to try to get closer to your turncounts. Unfortunately, somebody stopped playing for like 2 weeks and I started in chapter 1 after you took your break and got past you before you continued so I only had dondon the master to compare with.

I just don't want the card "smash is to sandbagging Mia as Colonel M is to sandbagging Fir" or however the saying goes. Don't want a Narga and a Fox pissed at me.

I'll add to that:

smash is to sandbagging Mia as Colonel M is to sandbagging Fir as BBlade is to sandbagging Thany

Check the Chad v. Astohl topic on feg v1 for why I'm saying that. He brought it on himself by suggesting it.

edit: actually, I should instead put it as:

smash is to sandbagging most female characters in fe9/10 + Edward as Colonel M is to sandbagging Fir as BBlade is to sandbagging Thany

What really sucks though is what I found out about Chapter 16's Armor Knights.

Yeah... I thought they were a lot weaker than that too. :/

Yeah, I know. Isn't 20/1 Lugh great? And Miledy 4HKOs with killers. Clarine 3 hits or something, though you'd have to get her to 15/1 or higher probably. Maybe even 20/1. I suppose if you spam her after an early promotion and get her to C for elfire it could work too.

As for the thieves, I honestly think that Chad > Asthol, then the tier separation with Cath. I don't know if I want the thieves down a tier yet (notice that High Tier is not very big). Feel free to prove me wrong on that. Also need a good stepping stone for Cath.

I'm confused what this means. Anyway, do you just want us to find someone in low mid appropriate for Cath to leapfrog for now? Chad/Astohl are probably fine in high, and if Marcus is now > Gonzo then I have to give more props to Chad's earlygame money provisions and I could possibly accept Chad > Astohl, despite Astohl being > Chad for like 23 chapters, though many of them don't need a thief. It just seems odd to me, though, but I guess it is like how Marcus can be < someone for 23 chapters and still be > him/her.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Again, it's not that I take issue with either of them fighting, I take issue with going out of your way to raise either of them. Astohl can actually earn more kills early on when he's doing his fighting to help out thing so as a result he may well level more than Chad, but that's just a result of their stats. If Astohl gets to have crit-time with a killing edge as a result of not sucking offensively then that doesn't mean I should work hard to get Chad to C swords just so I am being "even".

I don't completely agree with this. There are enough Axe-wielding enemies in the early game that you can pseudo-raise Chad without really "going out of your way." In any case, if Astol isn't being "raised" and only fights on extra time, that won't happen very often at all because you'll only be deploying him on maps that have chests and he'll spend most of his time getting the chests themselves and not fighting.

Okay, sorry, parts of it act like they don't exist. scan for stuff about chapter 8 and chapter 12 and 16. Without reading it fully, I'd assume you never posted like they didn't exist, but you are generally more thorough/honest than some others.

It was missed for a while, which is why that portion was started the way it was. I don't see how this helps Astol's case it all. In fact, I can only see it hurting him, which is why I used it back then.

Well, yeah, but I still recommend not using only chest keys. Just for one part of the map. It would be annoying, for example, to spend the money to buy enough chest keys to do things like open all the chests in chapter 16 (though I have done that once). I'd think ~half the remaining chests are up for grabs from chapter 8 on.

I'd only possibly accept that in a map like 16 where there are chests on both sides of the map (and 16 also has the Delphi Shield to steal). If we want the unit that's better in combat, we can find someone better than Astol for sure.

I'm basing it on Astohl being the better thief to use from chapter 8 till the end of the game.

But not if they don't fight (or fight very minimally, which is the likely case). If you go that route, Chad wins by default for his availability advantage since you don't need stats to Steal or Pick chests, which makes them equal as soon as Astol exists unless there's real danger near chests, which is very rare.

And why don't people kill that bolting sage on turn 1 in chapter 16? I suppose it takes Lalum to pull it off, or a promoted shin rather than a tier 1 shin, but it's not hard if you were conservative with the longbow. Also good for chapter 16x, though I think that guy was a 3HKO and this guy was a 2HKO. I don't exactly remember for certain.

Doesn't that just make Astol's durability lead even more insignificant?

Oh, sorry. I dropped the whole Chad to upper mid thing because it is a fair amount of money at the start. Now all I'm saying is Astohl > Chad but that's it. Well, I still want Cath in low mid, but that's not too important right now and none of the more recent posts have been about that anyway.

I do agree with Cath to Low Mid.

[Colonel M]

I'll add to that:

smash is to sandbagging Mia as Colonel M is to sandbagging Fir as BBlade is to sandbagging Thany

Check the Chad v. Astohl topic on feg v1 for why I'm saying that. He brought it on himself by suggesting it.

edit: actually, I should instead put it as:

smash is to sandbagging most female characters in fe9/10 + Edward as Colonel M is to sandbagging Fir as BBlade is to sandbagging Thany

Like I tell anyone else:

If you see me sandbagging or hyping, call me out and I'll stop. I'm dead serious.

If you seriously think I'm sandbagging Fir, say it. I won't be ashamed of stopping. I'd rather not hype and sandbag.

---

I would probably need to try to get closer to your turncounts. Unfortunately, somebody stopped playing for like 2 weeks and I started in chapter 1 after you took your break and got past you before you continued so I only had dondon the master to compare with.

Sorry. I didn't even cut down the turncounts much, as promised. Chapter 7 is the worst chapter. Ever.

Yeah, I know. Isn't 20/1 Lugh great? And Miledy 4HKOs with killers. Clarine 3 hits or something, though you'd have to get her to 15/1 or higher probably. Maybe even 20/1. I suppose if you spam her after an early promotion and get her to C for elfire it could work too.

Actually, base Hugh (the 10K version) could ORKO some of them. It was pretty nice, to say the least. I sort of left my Hammer behind so Lot wasn't really having a lot of fun, but seeing them KOed by a puny Mage seems more hilarious to me.

I'm confused what this means

Sorry, worded that wrong. I should've said "and Cath up a tier".

Anyway, do you just want us to find someone in low mid appropriate for Cath to leapfrog for now? Chad/Astohl are probably fine in high, and if Marcus is now > Gonzo then I have to give more props to Chad's earlygame money provisions and I could possibly accept Chad > Astohl, despite Astohl being > Chad for like 23 chapters, though many of them don't need a thief. It just seems odd to me, though, but I guess it is like how Marcus can be < someone for 23 chapters and still be > him/her.

Marcus is a complicated character to tier, especially in this game. I think being over Gonzales is acceptable, especially in Sacae (where I think he should kind of "drop", but I'll leave that to the others to decide). Yes, much of my emphasis with Chad > Asthol comes back to what he brings within the early chapters, plus the Red Gem in 7 (which no one really mentioned IIRC). Asthol sort of takes his place as a primary thief, and I suppose later on Cath can be fielded, but at times we're only fielding Thieves on a rare occasion. I'd field Asthol > Chad in Chapter 9 for example mainly because of the FoW. Not to mention that his combat, as pointed out, is far from ass with the Steel Sword (and it's true you can whiff KOes pretty easily). Same with Chapter 12, though I'd argue the mounted unit with Chest Keys is better (double up as a combat unit, plus the movement difference). Then in Chapter 16 I'd field both Cath and Asthol, or even just Asthol and have a mounted unit (probably Thany) collect the chests within the eastern area. Hell, I only used Asthol to get the Gems and Delphi Shield. Allan and Thany got all the chests. I probably wouldn't use Asthol as a serious combat unit in 17 Sacae. He's probably fielded if only to see further in the FoW, which a Torch Staff user like Clarine can also accomplish (or just a mounted Torch unit). So yeah, I note Asthol's combat advantage. It's just barely noticeable in some instances, or far from necessary.

EDIT:

And why don't people kill that bolting sage on turn 1 in chapter 16? I suppose it takes Lalum to pull it off, or a promoted shin rather than a tier 1 shin, but it's not hard if you were conservative with the longbow. Also good for chapter 16x, though I think that guy was a 3HKO and this guy was a 2HKO. I don't exactly remember for certain.

What Bolting Sage? You mean the Mage:

While the stats greatly vary, my Shin could KO it often on Turn 1 (he was promoted). It also appears to have 9 AS at times, so someone like Klein could rush over there (with the aid of Lalum) and KO it on Turn 1. I did it with Shin though, so I can guarantee that it shouldn't be much of a threat. It's the Purge Bishop if anything:

Which can OHKO base Chad (and I'm going to say that I wouldn't attempt to train Chad nor would I hype the hell out of Asthol). The durability advantage is only with that instance. Now, I can't speak of any chapters after that at the moment, but at least up until Chapter 16 Chad isn't in much danger.

There is a Sage in 16X with Bolting, and it is about a 3HKO.

My Shin has 21 Atk with the LongBow, to give you an idea. Klein should have about the same amount, so Klein + Shin can KO it.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

There is no legitimate reason for Marcus to be in Top tier. High tier? That's very possible. More and more people seem to agree with the ideal. Personally, I don't really care one way or the other.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't completely agree with this. There are enough Axe-wielding enemies in the early game that you can pseudo-raise Chad without really "going out of your way." In any case, if Astol isn't being "raised" and only fights on extra time, that won't happen very often at all because you'll only be deploying him on maps that have chests and he'll spend most of his time getting the chests themselves and not fighting.

Well, he's not bad in 10 and 11 (Echidna), so he might get some action there even without the fighting. And while he's probably not fighting in chapter 12 (lots of chests in the east room) you could deploy him on the left and key users on the right and he can kill the eclipse dude, I hope. There's only two chests there so it wouldn't take too long.

It was missed for a while, which is why that portion was started the way it was. I don't see how this helps Astol's case it all. In fact, I can only see it hurting him, which is why I used it back then.

I think people were still forgetting towards the end. And I think it helps because of things like chapter 8, 12, 12x even, 16, 20 (both), 22. If there were no chest keys, then you'd need at least two thieves for most of these. I happen to think no thieves is a waste of money and two thieves is sometimes a waste of deployment slots. I suppose Cath exists, though, so maybe no keys would help because the two best thieves statistically (assuming no inefficient raising of Chad to like level 8+) are Cath and Astohl.

Meh.

I'd only possibly accept that in a map like 16 where there are chests on both sides of the map (and 16 also has the Delphi Shield to steal). If we want the unit that's better in combat, we can find someone better than Astol for sure.

12x has fog of war + chests all over the map + a thief that will take some fun things. 8 has two chest rooms. 12 has two. 20s may only have one but that's a lot of chests together (I used both Astohl and Cath because I wanted her to grab the gem and bolt and him to open the doors since 4 door keys would be painful to bring. They finished their jobs and proceeded to open 6 chests in like 2 turns thanks to Lalum) and you might as well have at least one thief because of the gem on the boss and the gem + bolt on the other two enemies. They may as well open some chests while they are there. It seems silly not to.

But not if they don't fight (or fight very minimally, which is the likely case). If you go that route, Chad wins by default for his availability advantage since you don't need stats to Steal or Pick chests, which makes them equal as soon as Astol exists unless there's real danger near chests, which is very rare.

But they fight a little bit, making Astohl better to deploy.

Doesn't that just make Astol's durability lead even more insignificant?

Purge dude. Up the middle to get the gems and open the door (door keys are cheap, though, so he doesn't need to open the door but keys also only have 1/1 use and that's a pain with two doors over there). A thief that is afraid to take a purge blast is a thief that will take longer to reach Narshen. I wonder if level ~3 or 4 Chad can take a purge with pure water, though. Anyway, unless you raise Chad he'll have considerably less avo, too, and is thus more likely to need healing any time he takes a hit. Of course, my strategy involves getting the guy to attack Lalum and putting her at the end of his range causing him to walk up to the wall in position for shin to KO the guy, but I'm not convinced I couldn't go faster if I just let him purge 5 times.

I do agree with Cath to Low Mid.

Woot. I can't figure out where, though.

Like I tell anyone else: If you see me sandbagging or hyping, call me out and I'll stop. I'm dead serious. If you seriously think I'm sandbagging Fir, say it. I won't be ashamed of stopping. I'd rather not hype and sandbag.

I'm joking. I don't think you (or bblade) are like smash at all wrt any characters.

Sorry. I didn't even cut down the turncounts much, as promised. Chapter 7 is the worst chapter. Ever.

Mine are mostly worse than his, though I may have beat him once or twice. I lost by 5+ at least once, though, I think.

Actually, base Hugh (the 10K version) could ORKO some of them. It was pretty nice, to say the least. I sort of left my Hammer behind so Lot wasn't really having a lot of fun, but seeing them KOed by a puny Mage seems more hilarious to me.

Well, that's useful. The Hugh thing, not the Lot thing. I didn't see them as a problem, though. They were so very easy to kill. Even the General in chapter 21x was easy.

Sorry, worded that wrong. I should've said "and Cath up a tier".

Good. Good.

(I wanted to find a clip of the cartoon one saying good good. stupid google only shows a bunch of links to some song I don't care about.)

Marcus is a complicated character to tier, especially in this game. I think being over Gonzales is acceptable, especially in Sacae (where I think he should kind of "drop", but I'll leave that to the others to decide). Yes, much of my emphasis with Chad > Asthol comes back to what he brings within the early chapters, plus the Red Gem in 7 (which no one really mentioned IIRC). Asthol sort of takes his place as a primary thief, and I suppose later on Cath can be fielded, but at times we're only fielding Thieves on a rare occasion. I'd field Asthol > Chad in Chapter 9 for example mainly because of the FoW. Not to mention that his combat, as pointed out, is far from ass with the Steel Sword (and it's true you can whiff KOes pretty easily). Same with Chapter 12, though I'd argue the mounted unit with Chest Keys is better (double up as a combat unit, plus the movement difference). Then in Chapter 16 I'd field both Cath and Asthol, or even just Asthol and have a mounted unit (probably Thany) collect the chests within the eastern area. Hell, I only used Asthol to get the Gems and Delphi Shield. Allan and Thany got all the chests. I probably wouldn't use Asthol as a serious combat unit in 17 Sacae. He's probably fielded if only to see further in the FoW, which a Torch Staff user like Clarine can also accomplish (or just a mounted Torch unit). So yeah, I note Asthol's combat advantage. It's just barely noticeable in some instances, or far from necessary.

Trouble with dropping Gonzo and Echidna into upper mid in sacae is high becomes very small. Not that it wouldn't work, I suppose.

A few people have mentioned the red gem in chapter 7.

Thieves are amazing in fow. Torches add 3 range. A thief without a torch sees further than other units with a torch. Their range varies from fow to fow, though. EG: in chapter 20s you get 9 or 10 range with most units and 15 with thieves (an epic 18 with a torch). A thief in chapter 9 sees like 10, and 13 with a torch. I was extremely disappointed with non-thief torch-sight. It blows. I was mostly using Clarine's Torch at times where it gave like one extra range because a thief was to close to her (like 6 squares away from her) and had almost as good range two turns after it used a torch.

I assume you mean chapter 12x? Chapter 12 has an extremely tight chest area and there is little point of not using a thief there. It's like 5 chests, maybe 4, and the unit would need two door keys.

12x still has a thief that grabs items. Take his lockpick to stop him from doing any more of that and then grab the elixir and antitoxin he took. (And the second elixir if you are slow.) Also, FOW. I can't begin to tell you how amazing x+5 range is. (x being ~ what your other units get in any given fow map and x+5 being thieves. Torches mean x+8 compared to x=5.) Just to give you an idea, in chapter 9 where you get 10 range with a thief, that's radius 10. Take 20 + 38 + 34 + 30 + 26 + 22 + 18 + 14 + 10 + 6 + 2. That's how many tiles they let you see. Then add a torch. Put a 6 on the first number and add a 12 on each of the others and then add a 10, 6, 2 to the end of that. They give you 144 more tiles to see with a torch on top of the 220 they already let you see. 364 tiles. Not an exaggeration (unless they are within 13 of an edge of the grid, which they may well be.

In comparison, a unit with 5+3 sees:

10 + 18 + 14 + 10 + 6 + 2 = 60 tiles before a torch and

16 + 30 + 26 + 22 + 18 + 14 + 10 + 6 + 2 = 144 after a torch.

They only add 84 tiles from a torch. Thieves add 144 with a torch. Thieves are epic for FoW.

I used Hugh for the eastern chests. Best 5000 I ever spent!

I would have used a non-thief for the western chests, but I was sitting in chapter 15 and said nah, I don't need any of this! Oops. Oh well.

It probably held me back a turn or two having to rescue chain him to the boss, but oh well.

Chapters with FoW after Astohl arrives (going sacae):

9, 12x, 14, 17s, 20, 21x

Chapters I wouldn't want a thief giving an extra 5 sight:

____________

Yeah.

Also, a thief has a sword, maybe two in Astohl's case (iron + killer), a lockpick, and a torch. Maps like 14 can let him/her forego the lockpick. A unit like Thany can have:

iron sword, iron lance, killer lance, javelin, silver lance. And I want to add slim lance but can't. Iron sword for taking ballistas/ranged magic in the hopes of dodging, but if she has mercs nearby you might want wta and if there are fighters, the same. Iron lance for somewhat fast enemies that can't be doubled with killer. Killer for accuracy/crit/only -4 attack speed but 10 mt. silver for when you just gotta kill that Druid. -5 attack speed and only 65 hit on the weapon, but when it hits twice you can kiss that berserk/sleep/silence/fenrir (I laugh at eclipse) user goodbye (she's pretty good for the fenrir ones compared to, say, Miledy. Only 1-2 range but still quite powerful). Or for bishops with all that but purge instead of fenrir. Or sages with all that or bolting instead of fenrir/purge.

Clarine may want heal + mend (I'm cheap so I like having both) + physic + fire + restore. Or if you want multiple weapons like thunder + aircalibur when you get to B but still want some crit.

Basically, thieves have little motivation to want anything but torch. Your other units, yeah. And I didn't even get into carrying around elixirs and stuff like that.

...It's a weak little mage in 16? No wonder I can 2HKO one and not the other. I was wondering how one chapter could make such a difference. Anyway, don't forget Klein loses 3 attack speed from the longbow, giving him around 10 unless you've proc'd speed yet. Mages have 6 con, right? sages 7? If he has 11 or more speed then Klein needs to proc something to double.

Anyway, that's the bolting dude everyone was worried about in chapter 16. He's a douche. The purge guy is the reason Astohl is better. Though I should tell you that base Cath can survive a shot from Bolting dude, too. Yay Cath (needs pure water). Chad needs a pure water and level 7 and the full +7 to survive. Cath can survive with +6 at base. As for the purge guy, needs 19 hp or 18 hp and 1 res to survive with a full pure water. Level 4 or 5 probably. I only got Chad to level 3, but I suppose if you really really want you could get him there. Astohl the "tank" has 25 hp and 3 res at base. He's bound to be level 11 by now even if he only takes a few swipes along the way so 26 + 3 tanks mr. bolting and easily gets by mr. purge. Though again, level 9+ Lalum is a pretty good unit for drawing purge agro.

[grandjackal]

Not to detract from the ongoing conversation, but who else noticed this?

This involved Ray. We can accept he has problems at his start, namely his acc as we know his damage is not exactly the problem. However, as we go on, he does get awful close to 15 AS at promotion. Considering he has ample time to get to it before the route split, it's safe to assume that he could theoretically get to 20/2 or 3 before the maps of Sacae become flooded with nomads. I say this, because at the least, 15 AS avoids doubles from the slower types of nomad, and eventually getting to 16 AS as to avoid doubles from most nomads. Why do I bring this up?

He'd have abut 31.5 HP and 8.5 Def. At the least, B Lou would boost him to a theoretical 9 defense, possibly 10. With the 9 and avoiding doubles, he's 4RKOd, as 10 would not quite make the difference (if he gets 33 HP soon, he would be 5RKOd under 10 Def). Now, if we were to accept A Lou, Ray would get +15 acc. 16.5 Skill and 7.5 Luck ammount to a possible 35-38 hit, add 15 and we get 50-53. This equates to 120-123 hit, which when we take away nmad avoid average of 46 equates to 76 displayed, 88.72 real. Considering his 20.5+1 Magic and our basic Flux tome, that's 29-30 might. To give you an idea on how strong this is, Percival is able to ORKO nomads with a hand axe, which all likeliness he's packing 28 might on, and that's if he not only doubles, but lands both hits with his 44-47 displayed hit. That's hitting the stronger defense stat, Ray's hitting the much weaker resistance. Might not kill without a crit (8 base crit, +7 is 15, he'd not have a lot of crit up all things considered, as nomad luck is pretty high), but the things he hits will be easy to chew for anybody. If he manages 17 AS (unlikely, I know), he can manage this with Nosferatu, letting him meta-tank AND do a bit more extra damage to boot.

Only problem is Lou support doesn't give crit evade, despite his own element. With 7 luck and needing 18 crit evade to null out all possibilities, the +7 is not quite keeping things safe for Ray. However, he DOES save Lou's ass here.

Lou avoids being doubled here. Simple enough. While Ray doesn't give a lot of crit evade (due to Lou's Fire), Lou does have high luck. His luck alone is not enough to null out nomad crit, but thanks to Ray it's possible, and it also means Lou doesn't need paper durability Ellen or can't-double-jack-due-to-caps-and-has-essentially-no-counter-to-range Chad to do it. Lou's got about 16 Magic, +1 due to support. Lou's got about 40 base hit, +15 due to support brings him to 55. With Elfire, Lou could be packing 25 magic might with about 84 displayed hit. 89 displayed with Thunder (23 might), or 100 perfect accuracy with Fire (22 might), where otherwise it would have been 90 displayed, and having no chance to miss is obviously better.

Average Nomad

HP: 35

Attack: 18

Hit: 116

Crit: 18

Attack Speed: 18

Avoid: 46

Crit Evade: 9

Defense: 7

Resistance: 5

Behold, the +1 might bump allows Lou to ORKO with thunder, and also packing about 11 crit.

Most of all though is that Lou at this point in time would also have about 30 Def and 8 HP. As we can see what that's done for Ray, that +1 Def also makes it a 4RKO for Lou, and without any crit on him no less.

Now this brings me to Igrene. It's nice how she starts, 5RKOd by nomads and has brave bows, but do note that they have 9 crit on her, so she is in more danger of crit damage than Ray would with his 4. Then before+after, Ray's helping Lou perform better, along with Nosferatanking and having an enemy phase (as rare as it may be, it's more than Igrene has), and he is able to heal where she can't. By chapter 21, most would plop Lou on a mountain and let him Aircalibur away at wyverns as to serve as a distraction. You can plop Ray on a mountain as well, and give Lou an even better chance at survival. Ray would have about 114+15 hit with it, giving him 96 displayed hit on steel wyverns, 92 on javelin wyverns, and 89 displayed on wyvern lords. Ray has 44 avoid base, add 30 from mountains and +15 from Lou, we got 89, which is exactly the accuracy of javelin and steel wyverns, rendering him invincible to them (so in case a wyvern lord hits him, he will always be able to syphon health from one). Packing 23-24 magic with +1 from Lou and Nosferatu's 10 might for 34-35 magic, he is doing 30 damage at MOST to wyvern lords, a clean 2RKO. He could ORKO wyvern riders with Flux, thought might not double javelin ones.

Clearly, Igrene has nothing on that.

Chapter 22 and 23 could go either way, but how would Ray make up for it if he lost? Siple. Apocalypse is 54+5 might on mamkutes, which is 45 damage on the strongest base mamkute in chapter 24. In Ray's hands, you could add 24 magic to that, then +1 from Lou. This easily OHKOs any mamkute there, and from range no less. Miurge is 48 effective might, meaning this is 25 damage a shot at base. This is incapable of OHKOing, meaning that Igrene can only kill half the things Ray could before the weapon breaks. Ray can also attack from more than one space, so he's not as limited. And all the while, he's helping Lou perform better while Igrene is just performing by herself.

Even if she wins somewhat in Sacae, he destroys her in Bern.

Ray>Igrene

Disagreements?

[Narga_Rocks]

I do have a question about chapter 24, though. How much are your 6 move units even doing? I brought a couple of 6 move units. I gave up on Lugh (he ended up killing a couple of reinforcements for fun and using an elixir if he got hit on enemy phase. I basically gave up on having him keep up. I had another 6 move unit (Fir, but who it is was irrelevant because due to lucky levels she was better than most Diecks and Rutgers would be at that point) and did about the same. Used Durandal two or three times and that's about it. Main players were Clarine + Roy + Alan + Miledy.

I don't remember dondon's too much but I remember the major players being the warpers and Miledy and Percival. And the warpers are busy with Roy and so are the boots users because Miledy spent some time taking Roy around with her 12 move.

In other words, I don't think chapter 24 is particularly relevant for Roy or Lugh or Igrene. Apocalypse ends up doing nothing unless you get Ray to S Dark early enough to take on wyverns. Bright side? Chances are he gets to use Apocalypse on wyverns if he feels like it. And since Clarine won't likely reach S rank Anima Lugh gets to have fun with his S rank as well.

As for Miurge, Shin is probably best for it. Well, technically, if you raised Sue then the best may be whichever has more base hit. With both 2HKOing anyway, what's it matter if Shin has 9 more strength? They have pretty close to equal skl/lck anyway so the RNG basically picks one.

And how is Lugh ORKOing Nomads? He can't double. He can 2HKO, sure, but not double. Also, Aircalibur has more hit than Thunder anyway so he doesn't need the +1 mt from Ray, though the +cev can be beneficial provided they

a: hit A rank between chapter 12 and chapter 17 with a 14/20/27 support. Or maybe 14/20/26 depending on if the game remembers the extra 2 points gained from the 14th turn of the C support when it comes to getting the final 2 points of the A support.

So do I have a point? Well, just that chapter 24 doesn't mean much for either Igrene or Ray and that Ray gets to use Apocalypse indiscriminently and Igrene can't use Miurge that way because a character that is capable of using Miurge is good for chapter 24. If it helps that Ray can use his S rank freely and Igrene can't use hers freely then consider that.

[grandjackal]

I do have a question about chapter 24, though. How much are your 6 move units even doing? I brought a couple of 6 move units. I gave up on Lugh (he ended up killing a couple of reinforcements for fun and using an elixir if he got hit on enemy phase. I basically gave up on having him keep up. I had another 6 move unit (Fir, but who it is was irrelevant because due to lucky levels she was better than most Diecks and Rutgers would be at that point) and did about the same. Used Durandal two or three times and that's about it. Main players were Clarine + Roy + Alan + Miledy.

I don't remember dondon's too much but I remember the major players being the warpers and Miledy and Percival. And the warpers are busy with Roy and so are the boots users because Miledy spent some time taking Roy around with her 12 move.

Two things with this. 1. Warp might not necessarily be in-tact by this chapter, as there are several other uses for it (chapter 19 for Sacae comes to mind, as does chapter 22). 2. A third mobile unit could transport Ray around, and who better to tell mamkutes to get the FUCK off the throne? Ray might just be a special case for this simply because he obliterates any mamkute he happens to glance at. This helps other weapon wielders walk off to blast mamkutes in the way of this chain of assassinations.

This would also coincidentally also allow more legendary weapon use prior to chapter 24, so that other legendaries will be less prone to breaking. Isn't it nice to only need 1 weapon use to destroy something when everyone else needs 2?

In other words, I don't think chapter 24 is particularly relevant for Roy or Lugh or Igrene. Apocalypse ends up doing nothing unless you get Ray to S Dark early enough to take on wyverns. Bright side? Chances are he gets to use Apocalypse on wyverns if he feels like it. And since Clarine won't likely reach S rank Anima Lugh gets to have fun with his S rank as well.

Yet another plus for Apocalypse, if we had it for chapter 21. But, we sort of have to wait until after it's gaiden to get it. Luckily, there is another pain in the ass enemy time, Heroes. Ray just dropping 32 damage on them is just nuts. Yet also, another good point, Generals. Ray can actually ORKO these things (though I'm stunned by just how tough these things are). Igrene with her strongest weapon (Miurge, 16 might) couldn't ORKO these 56 HP and 23 Def behemoths even if she had 30 Str. Considering at best that Igrene has 20 Str, she would only do 13x2 damage, 26. Ray with 24 Mag, Lou support and Nosferatu is 35 might to their 11 resistance. He nearly does that in one shot with a non-legendary weapon. *In voice of TF2's The Sniper* Now that's downright embaressin'.

However, why would Lou care about using Foreblaze on Wyverns when he's got Aircalibur? He is too magically weak to OHKO with it, might as well bust out the angel-be-good special (as I'm now calling Aircalibur). 24 effective might, hard not to at least 1RKO wyverns with it. Furthermore, won't break as easily, which saves it for more effective use on mamkutes, as Lou's got a bit more trouble on those since they actually have resistance.

As for Miurge, Shin is probably best for it. Well, technically, if you raised Sue then the best may be whichever has more base hit. With both 2HKOing anyway, what's it matter if Shin has 9 more strength? They have pretty close to equal skl/lck anyway so the RNG basically picks one.

Regardless, Shin will have more hit due to the support of which you forgot to mention.

And how is Lugh ORKOing Nomads? He can't double. He can 2HKO, sure, but not double. Also, Aircalibur has more hit than Thunder anyway so he doesn't need the +1 mt from Ray, though the +cev can be beneficial provided they

a: hit A rank between chapter 12 and chapter 17 with a 14/20/27 support. Or maybe 14/20/26 depending on if the game remembers the extra 2 points gained from the 14th turn of the C support when it comes to getting the final 2 points of the A support.

Why use the far more expensive weapon though? Besides, Lou has a better chance of killing with Thunder than Aircalibur thanks to Thunder's crit, of which Ray's support regardless increases the chance of.

Also, I never said Lou ORKOs nomads outside of crit, but Ray does help supply him with more enemy phase by bolstering a 3RKO to a 4RKO, and nullifying any crit they might have n Lou. The fact he also helps Lou kill better with a far cheaper weapon is also nice, along with increasing Lou's acc here.

And acc is good here. Igrene with her Brave Bow (20 uses, only one of them in existence, you've had it a good long while so it could have some of it's uses worn out by Sacae) has 115 acc, so after nomad 46 avoid is factored in, she would have 69 displayed hit, which is worse than Ray's acc thanks to support.

Regardless of all this however is that if you are REALLY not wanting to expose Ray to more threats, he's nto out of luck by any means. Why? Because he can wait in line for healing, as he can switch to backline healing before it's chosen that he gets healed up. He's free to hang back and wait, because while he's hanging back he's still not being useless. Igrene needs all the healing she can get as she would always be frontline, and considering that with the fact she constantly has 9 crit pinned on her, Igrene will be having more bad days than Ray would, even if she can take an extra round naturally.

That's several things he's got on Igrene, and one thing that is quite nice that very few others can do without being a hindrance in some form or another: He makes Lou more useful than he normally would be in Sacae. He's got no other supporters who don't suck here/are too slow, so that technically IS something that only he, Ray, can do. Igrene does nothing but frontline, and we got Sue/Shin/Klein/whatever ranged guys with good accuracy and crit/can use the Brave Bow we got.

So do I have a point? Well, just that chapter 24 doesn't mean much for either Igrene or Ray and that Ray gets to use Apocalypse indiscriminently and Igrene can't use Miurge that way because a character that is capable of using Miurge is good for chapter 24. If it helps that Ray can use his S rank freely and Igrene can't use hers freely then consider that.

Well, that and he IS the best for removing mamkutes off the throne, which further allows uses of legendary weapons early on with little impunity.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Colonel M]

Igrene using Brave Bow? Er, she starts with C Bows. I HIGHLY doubt she will hit B by Sacae. It was enough of a struggle to get close to D Swords and, yes, A Bows (no joke: I still don't have A Bows).

Ill read the rest later.

[Ether]

According to this site Igrene has B bows at base.

[Colonel M]

Oh. My mistake. Sorry GJ.

[grandjackal]

Issalright Colonel, seems like Igrene getting hte Brave Bow even then is a bit iffy, apparently by your skepticism at least.

But yes, I double check my facts now.

[Colonel M]

No, if she has the rank, there is no skepticism.

The possibility of her using it is still probable. I wouldn't call her much of a star, but being practically RNG-proof is a nice positive. Not saying that the tier player won't train Klein, but at the moment he stands in Upper Mid. To reach Igrene's base Spd, Klein would need to gain around 6 levels, assuming that Klein came with 13 base Spd. 15 base Spd does a good job at avoiding with some people being doubled by Nomads. Not exactly 100% guaranteed, but better than 12, 13, or 14 Spd would. So what Igrene offers you is Klein without the resource of training. Obviously, trained Klein > Igrene. Fairly simple concept. She's got a nice amount of Skl, granted that she loses in Luck (which means Igrene faces crit chances X_X;...). So yeah, I wouldn't toss the resource out of her hands just because "Klein". So nah, I'm not cramping against it.

As for Ray, I'm very unsure about a lot of things. It was a pain to get Lot / Dieck to the A support frame by Chapter 16. Not saying it's under the lines of impossible for Lugh / Ray to support each other (20+3 isn't entirely slow). It's that you only have the duration of Chapter 13, 14, MAYBE 14X (but placing doubt), 15, 16, and 16X just to hit A. I guess theoretically it is possible to have a B by the route split, assuming that Lugh and Ray participate in both 14X and 16X. Well, I can definitely see a C support by mid-way Chapter 14. It takes 11 turns to complete Chapter 13, and you only need ~17 for a C support. So let's say, with the buffer of separating from time to time, that they are "guaranteed" the C support by Chapter 14. Chapters 15 and 16 vary in turncount. You can take a shortcut in Chapter 15 after you get the Hammerne, thus you can end the chapter rather quickly (dondon had 6, I had 7). In Chapter 16, it greatly varies if you sell all of the supplies (or some of them) obtained within the chapter or not. For the sake of argument, we'll say I could do it in 15 turns. So now we have... 22. That's already a B support, assuming that they are strung together each and every turn.

So now for the A support. You need 27 turns. That would take a little while longer... about 3/4 chapters of Sacae. That's the thing I guess: you'd have to assume that they went in one of 14X or 16X to net the A support faster (if you seen dondon's stuff, he had single digit turncounts for 17 and 18. I had +1 turns on 17 Sacae, so the only thing is 18. Narga had somewhere around the same vicinity too, so I have doubts that I'd take much longer as well). The only thing missing is the 5 Hit I guess, so no use crying over spilled milk. Just making sure you aren't completely assuming A Lugh / Ray by the time we hit route split.

Two things with this. 1. Warp might not necessarily be in-tact by this chapter, as there are several other uses for it (chapter 19 for Sacae comes to mind, as does chapter 22)

You have 3 uses of Hammerne. I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't burn up 10 uses that quickly (theoretically you could, but just placing some doubt).

I have no real say on Ray vs. Igrene. I think that Lower Mid in general needs a re-shuffling, but I'll get back to you on that.

[grandjackal]

No, if she has the rank, there is no skepticism.

The possibility of her using it is still probable. I wouldn't call her much of a star, but being practically RNG-proof is a nice positive. Not saying that the tier player won't train Klein, but at the moment he stands in Upper Mid. To reach Igrene's base Spd, Klein would need to gain around 6 levels, assuming that Klein came with 13 base Spd. 15 base Spd does a good job at avoiding with some people being doubled by Nomads. Not exactly 100% guaranteed, but better than 12, 13, or 14 Spd would. So what Igrene offers you is Klein without the resource of training. Obviously, trained Klein > Igrene. Fairly simple concept. She's got a nice amount of Skl, granted that she loses in Luck (which means Igrene faces crit chances X_X;...). So yeah, I wouldn't toss the resource out of her hands just because "Klein". So nah, I'm not cramping against it.

Average Nomad

HP: 35

Attack: 18

Hit: 116

Crit: 18

Attack Speed: 18

Avoid: 46

Crit Evade: 9

Defense: 7

Resistance: 5

Klein starts with 15-16 Str, Brave Bow is 10 might. No doubling required, Brave Bow does it for him. Since they'll be dead before they can land the second hit, he don't give a fuuuuck.

Klein's got supports to boost his accuracy with it (Ice is natural to him), he will always have more accuracy with it. He will always have more defense, he will have no displayed crit on him thanks to supports+high luck. He helps Clarine be more durable in Sacae, which helps her perform better there.

Klein destroys her in Sacae at least. Brave Bow is far more awesome than you think here.

As for Ray, I'm very unsure about a lot of things. It was a pain to get Lot / Dieck to the A support frame by Chapter 16. Not saying it's under the lines of impossible for Lugh / Ray to support each other (20+3 isn't entirely slow). It's that you only have the duration of Chapter 13, 14, MAYBE 14X (but placing doubt), 15, 16, and 16X just to hit A. I guess theoretically it is possible to have a B by the route split, assuming that Lugh and Ray participate in both 14X and 16X. Well, I can definitely see a C support by mid-way Chapter 14. It takes 11 turns to complete Chapter 13, and you only need ~17 for a C support. So let's say, with the buffer of separating from time to time, that they are "guaranteed" the C support by Chapter 14. Chapters 15 and 16 vary in turncount. You can take a shortcut in Chapter 15 after you get the Hammerne, thus you can end the chapter rather quickly (dondon had 6, I had 7). In Chapter 16, it greatly varies if you sell all of the supplies (or some of them) obtained within the chapter or not. For the sake of argument, we'll say I could do it in 15 turns. So now we have... 22. That's already a B support, assuming that they are strung together each and every turn.

So now for the A support. You need 27 turns. That would take a little while longer... about 3/4 chapters of Sacae. That's the thing I guess: you'd have to assume that they went in one of 14X or 16X to net the A support faster (if you seen dondon's stuff, he had single digit turncounts for 17 and 18. I had +1 turns on 17 Sacae, so the only thing is 18. Narga had somewhere around the same vicinity too, so I have doubts that I'd take much longer as well). The only thing missing is the 5 Hit I guess, so no use crying over spilled milk. Just making sure you aren't completely assuming A Lugh / Ray by the time we hit route split.

The A just means a bit mroe crit evade and hit for Ray, but he can live with a B. Lou just wants a B at least so he can avoid crit chances and go from being 3RKOd to 4RKOd.

You have 3 uses of Hammerne. I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't burn up 10 uses that quickly (theoretically you could, but just placing some doubt).

Something I could punish Igrene for quite easily, thanks to her needing the Brave Bow for Sacae. It's only 20 uses, and considering what Sacae is like, it'd be surprising to see how long that thing lasts (20 uses is 10 dead outside of crit, of which she has none on them as 18 skill is 9 crit, the exact amount of crit evade they have). It's even worse if you might have had to use it a bit prior, let's say Klein taking out some wyverns in the desert.

I have no real say on Ray vs. Igrene. I think that Lower Mid in general needs a re-shuffling, but I'll get back to you on that.

I personally think there needs to be a neutral-mid tier.

[-Cynthia-]

Your above statements seem a little odd to me. You claim that Klein can use the Brave Bow for greater effect in Sacae, but Igrene is punished for needing the Brave Bow? It seems like a double standard.

I agree with a reshuffling. For example, I'm not sure how Geese is better than Igrene or Ray. He's not that much more durable and he has to take counters, has more accuracy issues than Ray, and has doubling issues. Ray at least has Nosferatu and staves, Igrene doesn't need a promo item and flier effectiveness, Geese has walking on water, which I haven't really found a practicsl use for.