FE6 HM Tier List

[Dark Sage]

I guess I have. I heard someone say Lugh might get a B with Ellen by Chapter 8 (don't ask). I never figured that at all in an efficient playthrough, but I figured that Lugh might get a C with Ellen. Still, even if you take away all his supports and give Lilina a C with Roy, he's still beating her in durability, he's easier to shield, he might not always double, but at least he doesn't get doubled.

Now for Speedwing competition, I'm not exactly sure who really benefits a lot more than Lugh. Is Alan borderline doubling? If so, then him getting the speedwing over Lugh is understandable. Maybe Dieck, but I'd like to think you promoted Dieck by the time you get the Speedwing.

Still, let's say by the time you get a speedwing, Lugh is at 11/0. He has 11 AS. With the speedwing, he has 13 AS, which is about as much as Klein has. Now if we're using him, he's probably built up at least a C with Ellen and Chad, Lilina with a C in Gonzales and Roy. I'll put her at 9/0 just to be nice to her and because, well honestly it's been awhile, so I'm not at all sure of their levels by Chapter 12 (Chad's a thief, so there's a decent chance of him being deployed there). Let's compare a wing on both of them.

11/0 Lugh (C Ellen, C Chad): 21 HP, 8 Mag, 10 Skl, 13 Spd (winged), 8.5 Luk, 4.5 Def, 8 Res. Translates to 21 HP, 17 MT with Elfire, 108 Hit, 13 AS, 41 evade, 15 crit, 4 defense, 8 resistance.

9/0 Lilina (C Gonzales, C Roy): 19.6 HP, 11 Mag, 6.6 Skl, 8.8 Spd (winged, 9 spd if you round up), 8 Luk, 2.8 Def (probably 3), 9.8 Res (probably 10 Res). Translates to 19 HP, 20 MT with Elfire, 102 Hit, 9 AS, 31 evade, 13 crit, 4 def, 10 Res.

Now this is putting them at nearly equal levels, which may not be accurate.

Let's take the slowest enemy here:

12/0 Fighter w/Steel and Hand: HP 35-38, 26 (22 with Hand) atk, 69 Hit, 15 avoid, 2 res, 3 CEV, 6 AS, 9 AS with Handaxe

Both get oneshotted if hit with the steel axe, but Lugh has a 28% chance of dodging. Lilina has a 38% chance of evading and unlike Lugh, doesn't double. Both 2RKO the 35-36 HP ones, while Lilina only 3RKOs the 37-38 HP varieties. Lilina has a 10% chance of critical, but Lugh has 12% crit and doubles, so he has a greater chance of oneshotting. Even on the 35-36 HP varieties, I'd arguably say that Lugh's more useful even though they both 2RKO them because Lugh leaves them at lower HP.

Now the faster varieties that have 10 AS with a handaxe both fail to double, but Lugh does evade more and if he's at 13/0, he can still double them.

This applies to all the archers as well, who are common. The strongest and most accurate archers 2RKO him at 52% hit, while Lilina gets 2RKO'd by them and has 62% hit. Longbow archers hit Lugh at 42% and Lilina at 52%. The Sniper ORKO's both, Lugh at 59% and Lilina at 69%. The warrior with the handaxe has 12 AS and 78% hit. Lugh has a 37% chance of getting hit and gets OHKO'd, while Lilina gets OHKO'd and has a 47% of getting hit and gets doubled if she's unlucky enough to not hit the 9 AS mark, which is possible, so that increases her true chance of getting hit. Against Shamans, both get 2RKO'd, Lugh taking 15 damage at a 57% chance of hitting, Lilina taking 12 damage at a 67% chance of hitting.

Offensively, the only thing Lilina's better against than Lugh are Aine, the warrior, the level 13 knights (which she ORKO's), and the sniper. Against the shamans, Lilina is better since her higher magic means she only loses one damage to him and uses up less Elfire charges. Um, yay? Neither want to touch the warrior or the Sniper, but at least Lugh isn't in as much danger and doesn't have to worried about being screwed out of that one point of speed. Both are bad against shamans, and both 4RKO them. Fighters, they only both 2RKO against the lower end fighters, and Lugh leaves less HP than Lilina on them anyway and has a chance of oneshotting them better with a crit thanks to doubling. Lugh 4RKOs the Sniper while Lilina 3RKO's the sniper, but they shouldn't get near his range at all, since they both get oneshotted. Lugh 4RKO's the warrior, while Lilina...4RKOs the warrior.

And this is putting them on roughly equal levels, giving them both a speedwing, and giving them both their full supports that they're likely to have (the avoid gap is smaller without Chad support admitedly). Now I'm not excusing Lugh for not being that good on this level, but at least he doubles here. At least he doesn't get hit as often. At least in practice he has a greater shot of criticalling someone to death. At least that he gains something out of being winged. He can do heavy damage with his doubling on fighters, which make up most of the enemies here along with archers. The layout sucks for both of them since there are a lot of archers and some shamans, but at least Lugh has better evade against them. Without the wing, Lilina sucks a lot here. Lilina would get doubled by the sniper, the warrior, hand axe fighters, and wouldn't even be able to double the armors or Aine.

Simply put, in midgame, in one of their worst chapters, at assuming that on average in the 9 maps he's in up to this point (4,5,6,7,8,8x,9,10,11), he's only gaining an average of 1.1 levels per chapter while Lilina in the 5 maps she's in (8,8x,9,10,11), is gaining an average of 1.6 levels a map. Both have an opportunity cost with the wing, but at least Lugh gains a lot more out of it. It does show he can double with it, and if you go the extra mile and promote him with the wing at 11/0, he'll have 12 magic and 15 AS, so he'll hit hard and against wyverns, he's pretty much guaranteed to kill and gives staves (note this is hypothetical, and that Clarine is a far better choice for the first ring), but at least he can use this option. Lilina can't, which is why I think a tier gap is appropriate.

Now this probably isn't the best argument, and I really want to improve and get better at this type of thing. So tear away at this if you need to. It's a good learning experience.

This does cover only one chapter to be fair, but it's pretty much fact Lugh has a better lategame. With the speedwing, I'm not sure if we're early promoting Dieck and Alan, so them getting it isn't as clear. So this leaves mainly Noah, Zealot, and Klein, and Klein doesn't quite give you an immediate benefit out of it.

Edited December 25, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Anouleth]

So exactly why is Treck so low, then?

Level 14 Treck

33.5HP 12STR 9SKL 10.5SPD 10LUK 11DEF 0.5RES

Base Geese

33HP 10STR 9SKL 9SPD 9LUK 8DEF 0RES

Treck also has better supports, 2 move, and WTC. Or for that matter:

20/1 Treck

41.6HP 16.4STR 12.8SKL 14.6SPD 13LUK 14.8DEF 3.8RES

Fa

16HP 30ATK 131HIT 3AS 17DEF 26RES

Level 3 Igrene

33.4HP 16.7STR 18.5SKL 15.7SPD 9.4LUK 11.2DEF 10.1RES

And with the aforementioned advantages of supportsmovementweapontriangle.

Now for Speedwing competition, I'm not exactly sure who really benefits a lot more than Lugh. Is Alan borderline doubling? If so, then him getting the speedwing over Lugh is understandable. Maybe Dieck, but I'd like to think you promoted Dieck by the time you get the Speedwing.

Literally anyone in the game not named Rutger or Sue or Thany has some desire for the Speedwing. And unlike Lugh they're not limited to one attack per turn because of cruddy durability, so they will be getting more mileage out of it.

Whoops, double posted by accident, sorry.

Edited December 27, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Narga_Rocks]

Bad Anouleth.

Oh, and I think even Rutger and Thany and Sue can get a use out of it. Not, you know, a good one, but there's bound to be stuff they'll now double that they didn't before. You get it in chapter 11 or 10, depending on route. And even if Rutger doubles everything with killer, the wing could let him grab a steel sword or maybe iron blade or steel blade depending on the enemy. Like I said, not a good use, but a use nonetheless. Hence a desire. (Thany is similar, only killer lances don't even exist until the tail-end of chapter 13 so she's got more reason than Rutger. Sue only loses 2 AS from Killer Bows, but that's still sometimes enough to double. Especially if she's a little (re: 1) under her spd average. Sue just has no motivation to use anything heavier than that except rarely the longbow. Her S rank is rather late and she won't have trouble doubling Wyverns or Mamkutes without the wing. Brave Bow is probably for giving two hits before counters rather than 4 hits total.)

Everyone that doesn't already have capped spd in any of these games can always find a use for a speedwing and thus desires it at least a little. Even Mia in fe10 gets a capped stat for bexping and an extra 4 avo slightly earlier. Terrible idea, but that's still something.

[Dark Sage]

Is Treck really going to be at 14/0 at 10A or 11B? I frankly doubt it.

[grandjackal]

So exactly why is Treck so low, then?

Level 14 Treck

33.5HP 12STR 9SKL 10.5SPD 10LUK 11DEF 0.5RES

Base Geese

33HP 10STR 9SKL 9SPD 9LUK 8DEF 0RES

Treck also has better supports, 2 move, and WTC. Or for that matter:

9 levels, still not doubling when Geese arrives. This has a lot to do with it, mainly. Also, I know his base level is low for when he joins, but 9 levels in 5 chapters?

I get that better supports, 2 move and WTC is cool, but mediocre combat isn't when you're a frontliner. Comparing to Geese is not a good thing. All this really says is Geese should drop, as I originally stated when I rebooted the topic.

20/1 Treck

41.6HP 16.4STR 12.8SKL 14.6SPD 13LUK 14.8DEF 3.8RES

Fa

16HP 30ATK 131HIT 3AS 17DEF 26RES

Level 3 Igrene

33.4HP 16.7STR 18.5SKL 15.7SPD 9.4LUK 11.2DEF 10.1RES

And with the aforementioned advantages of supportsmovementweapontriangle.

When is this exactly? I can venture it's passed chapter 15, so I'm going to venture...Some time in Ilia or Sacae he's promoting? Which case from the looks of it, he has the speed to double pegasi...And then Bern shows up, and he's in the same problem Zeiss is in. Except he can't fly, nor does he have Zeiss's durability...or monsterous Str.

All this training for a nerf version of Zeiss!?

Literally anyone in the game not named Rutger or Sue or Thany has some desire for the Speedwing. And unlike Lugh they're not limited to one attack per turn because of cruddy durability, so they will be getting more mileage out of it.

Thank you! Now can we drop the sucker down already? I'm venturing to where Ray is now in lower mid, then dropping Ray down to Low.

[Dark Sage]

Wow. You really have it in for the poor little guys it seems. No offense.

[Colonel M]

It's from his grudge of AKs sucking in this game...

[grandjackal]

It's from his grudge of AKs sucking in this game...

Hey, I was keeping up with you despite using armor knights...

...Until chapter 16...

...I'm sorry, what does this have to do with Lou now?

[Anouleth]

9 levels, still not doubling when Geese arrives. This has a lot to do with it, mainly. Also, I know his base level is low for when he joins, but 9 levels in 5 chapters?

I got him to that level. And maybe my turncounts aren't the best, but I didn't really struggle with his levelling.

I get that better supports, 2 move and WTC is cool, but mediocre combat isn't when you're a frontliner. Comparing to Geese is not a good thing. All this really says is Geese should drop, as I originally stated when I rebooted the topic.

There are many people above Treck that have mediocre combat themselves. Bartre, Garret, Fa. Hell, even Lot has mediocre combat, worse than Treck's.

When is this exactly? I can venture it's passed chapter 15, so I'm going to venture...Some time in Ilia or Sacae he's promoting? Which case from the looks of it, he has the speed to double pegasi...And then Bern shows up, and he's in the same problem Zeiss is in. Except he can't fly, nor does he have Zeiss's durability...or monsterous Str.

All this training for a nerf version of Zeiss!?

Because of course, Treck isn't contributing or being useful at all in his additional 10 chapters before Zeiss even exists. I don't know any tier list that puts a penalty on needing 'training', because the concept is absurd. Treck only gains experience from killing and damaging enemies, so him gaining levels presupposes that he's being useful.

Or perhaps Zeiss needs to go up.

[-Cynthia-]

Lot is a bad comparison, because Lot contributes to earlygame chapters. Unlike Lot, Treck doesn't have any chapters of free deployment, and he's never really good enough to be deployed to be honest.

That being said, why he's an entire tier under people like Garret is beyond me. Treck can't double much, but neither can Garret, and Treck has Mov and WTC on his side. A lot of the Mid tier units seem to be mediocre prepromotes (Garret, Igrene, Bartre) which I'm not sure is much better than being a mediocre unpromoted unit (Treck, Oujay, Geese etc.)

Cath>Zeiss seems weird to me, how many things do we need to steal? We have Chest/Door Keys for most stuff, and if we want to field a thief for stealing Astohl beats her out in like every area. Zeiss at least acts as another ferry, so he's worth fielding on some maps.

[Dark Sage]

About mages.

Maybe we should reexamine the old arguments for their placements.

[grandjackal]

I got him to that level. And maybe my turncounts aren't the best, but I didn't really struggle with his levelling.

Alright, let me rephrase that. 9 levels, still not fantastic? He's got 10 AS at a point where we need around 12-13 speed to double normally. He's literally half the offense we could have at the moment.

That, and I still find 9 levels in 5 chapters ridiculous.

There are many people above Treck that have mediocre combat themselves. Bartre,

The strength equivelent to Echidna is mediocre at combat? I'll grant you this, he's probably better in Sacae than Ilia, so if we're using him, chances are we're going to Sacae. If we ARE indeed going to Sacae, Treck can just get the hell out of Bartre's face.

Garret, Fa.

I'm not the one who raised them, but I think the point of Fa was she had instant utility of dragonslaying, and Garret's ability to sit on a mountain and distract flier units forever have something to do with their position. Garret...Yeah, his position seems kinda silly, but I'd take Fa's instant dragonslaying over Treck being derpy for most of his existence.

Hell, even Lot has mediocre combat, worse than Treck's.

Treck's bases are about the same as Lot's bases, and Lot came 6 chapters earlier, where he's forced no less, and over time could possibly be supporting Deick.

Because of course, Treck isn't contributing or being useful at all in his additional 10 chapters before Zeiss even exists. I don't know any tier list that puts a penalty on needing 'training', because the concept is absurd. Treck only gains experience from killing and damaging enemies, so him gaining levels presupposes that he's being useful.

Having a horse doesn't automatically make you a demi-god at combat, it just means you get there before anyone else. Having crappy combat puts a hamper on how quickly he levels. What the hell are you talking about, just about every tier list penalizes "training" on the basis that there are units that exist that simply show up already good and don't require us to use a sucky unit in the mean time, especially most units that "need training" end up average at best. Finally, the amount of EXP Treck needs to finally become something other than "guy with a horse" is absurd. You even showed us your own levels for when he and Geese meet, and compared him to Geese. Yes, he's got some better Str and Def, but his speed is still awful, thus his offense is still much worse than what we could have.

Or perhaps Zeiss needs to go up.

For Ilia, sure.

That being said, why he's an entire tier under people like Garret is beyond me.

Same, but that might just call for a drop of Garret than a rise of Treck.

A lot of the Mid tier units seem to be mediocre prepromotes (Garret, Igrene, Bartre) which I'm not sure is much better than being a mediocre unpromoted unit (Treck, Oujay, Geese etc.)

Comparing Bartre and Igrene to failures like Oujay and Geese is laughable. Igrene can at least serve a purpose in Sacae without training (carrying over with Miurgre), and despite popular opinion, Bartre doesn't actually suck, he's just the inferior to Echidna of whom while smoking him in Ilia, I would venture I might actually prefer Bartre in Sacae due to bows being better than hand axes due to accuracy.

Garret is indeed silly though.

Cath>Zeiss seems weird to me, how many things do we need to steal? We have Chest/Door Keys for most stuff, and if we want to field a thief for stealing Astohl beats her out in like every area. Zeiss at least acts as another ferry, so he's worth fielding on some maps.

12x and 14 comes to mind, but fielding 3 thieves is absolutely silly. Then 16, which is wrought with Bolting and Purge so she'd melt there, then the castle chapters of Ilia or Sacae, which again I would not field Cath there unless I wanted to free up space on my unit deployment screen for some insane reason.

So yeah, agreed.

[-Cynthia-]

It seems a little odd to negative of Treck for his 10 AS, yet that's all Bartre has with Treck having more room for improvement. Bartre's Str is obviously better, but he still doesn't OHKO things most of the time and either has low accuracy or no enemy phase. His durability also is more questionable once he starts getting doubled by enemies.

Miurgre doesn't help Igrene that much since it weighs her down by 3. Then again, she's either one of your best counterers or is facing fliers for almost the entire rest of the game after she joins, so I suppose she can stay.

But yes, perhaps the real problem with the prepromotes and unpromoted units is that Garret is too high. As for Zeiss and Cath, I'm not sure which should go where. Zeiss is probably about as useful as Yodel I'd say (staves vs. flyer utility for more chapters), and I can't really think of a chapter where I would actually want to deploy Cath. I guess she can substitute for Chad or Astohl without losing much, but there's still no reason to do it so eh.

[Life]

Treck's bases are about the same as Lot's bases, and Lot came 6 chapters earlier, where he's forced no less, and over time could possibly be supporting Deick.

Lott - Level 3 Fighter
Iron Axe - 15 Att, 78 Hit, 7 AS, 16 Avo
Hand Axe - 14 Att, 63 Hit, 7 AS, 16 Avo
29 HP, 4 Def, 1 Res

Treck - Level 4 Social Knight
Iron Sword - 13 Att, 99 Hit, 7 AS, 19 Avo
Steel Lance - 16 Att, 69 Hit, 3 AS, 11 Avo
25 HP, 8 Def, 0 Res

Above quote is true. If Treck wants to come close to even matching Lott's damage (Steel Lance), his Hit drops down to Lott's level and 3 AS doubles nada. On the defensive side, 8 Def is cool but Lott's already been improving his since Chapter 2. Lott at level 9 has about 6.4 Def along with 33.8 HP. So much for Treck being able to beat Lott in offense or defense.

Edited December 28, 2010 by Life Admiral

[Dark Sage]

Bartre also has wyvern killing utility with access to bows and massive strength, so that's another point in his favor vs Treck.

[grandjackal]

It seems a little odd to negative of Treck for his 10 AS, yet that's all Bartre has with Treck having more room for improvement. Bartre's Str is obviously better, but he still doesn't OHKO things most of the time and either has low accuracy or no enemy phase. His durability also is more questionable once he starts getting doubled by enemies.

There's a reason Bartre's only Mid and not higher, the point being is that his ability to counter and chip with such monsterous strength is incredible. Even if he doesn't kill, whatever comes to take that kill is gonna have one hell of an easy time chewing it down. His axe rank also allows him access to the Brave Axe if we really need him to actually kill anything. Granted it's limited, but who else is using it? Geese?

But hey, let's not just have me spout nonsense, let's actually check stats. Wth a Steel Bow, he's got 31 Mt. Opening chapter, this is about 27-26 damage average on the most common enemies of archers (who have no choice but to do this due to the fact that most of the level is a walled corridor) and fighters (the thing blocking your exit out of the corridor). Most fighters are in 10-12 HP range (easily enough to avoid a counter with), archers less than that. It's not a kill, but it's avoiding counters for sure, and the less hits I have to worry about landing with innacurate weapons like a javelin, the better. 12 might be a bad example though due to the nature of the map, but similar effects come with 12x. Thent here's 13, where from the looks of it he's cutting our common cavaliers down to 14-16 HP. To give you an example on how good chip that is, a base level Lillina with C Roy and Elfire could do it. To bring it up to a better standard, about a level 15 Allen with his supports can avoid a counter with only needing to use Iron. Lance would need steel, but it's still there. So as we see, even if it's not doubling, he's still hitting hard enough that he leaves enemies gummable. I'm not even going to mention wyverns.

As for being weaker as the game goes on, in Ilia? Sure. Sacae? I'm not so sure. With a mere Fir support at B (look how ridiculously fast it is and tell me it won't happen. Only problematic part is fielding Fir, though I'm sure there are some out there who wouldn't object to it), and even just a few levels to get 11+1 Def, he's 5RKOd by nomads, and is still doing meaty damage back. It's rather average, but it beats Treck essentially being in the same boat with a more inaccurate weapon and less power (assuming even 16 Str, 22 Mt with a javy or 23 with a Hand Axe is not quite 2RKOing if I remember correctly. I believe nomads had around 36-38 HP and 7-8 Def). While he can't ORKO with a Brave Bow like Igrene can (due to rank), he can at least close the distance with an axe, or opt to whip out a Brave Axe, along with helping Fir work better.

Then we hit Bern which is indeed probably one of Bartre's worse places, but at least he can sit on a mountain (not Peaks) with Fir holding a Lancereaver or something to distract the multitudes of wyverns, and most maybe be able to whip out killer bows on heroes in 22 (maybe). Treck's got mobility and not doubled as often (I think 22 heroes are the only ones, and they gotta be the faster ones), so I would maybe call it about even here.

In Ilia though? Sure. If it can be shown on average that after promotion Treck can have 14 As to at least have usable offense, he's definitely better than Bartre in Ilia. Sacae route though, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Miurgre doesn't help Igrene that much since it weighs her down by 3. Then again, she's either one of your best counterers or is facing fliers for almost the entire rest of the game after she joins, so I suppose she can stay.

+1 speed lets her double paladins in Bern at base, good enough for me. I think she can get that easily in the time between join and Bern if we go Sacae. +3 is more troublesome, but if she can pull it off, then she can do wyvern lords and 16 AS mamkutes in pretty easy.

But yes, perhaps the real problem with the prepromotes and unpromoted units is that Garret is too high. As for Zeiss and Cath, I'm not sure which should go where. Zeiss is probably about as useful as Yodel I'd say (staves vs. flyer utility for more chapters), and I can't really think of a chapter where I would actually want to deploy Cath. I guess she can substitute for Chad or Astohl without losing much, but there's still no reason to do it so eh.

I'd agree generally with Zeiss and Garret, but Cath just...thieves generally are running out of shelf life already by now, if they haven't already. 3-10 range attacks are only gonna get more common, and we got keys. Chad at least had chests no one else can get, and Ashtor for some amount of his start had decent combat for the isles.

[Psych]

Then we hit Bern which is indeed probably one of Bartre's worse places, but at least he can sit on a mountain (not Peaks) with Fir holding a Lancereaver or something to distract the multitudes of wyverns, and most maybe be able to whip out killer bows on heroes in 22 (maybe). Treck's got mobility and not doubled as often (I think 22 heroes are the only ones, and they gotta be the faster ones), so I would maybe call it about even here.

I'm sorry, I thought you said Bern was one of his worse places. Long bow is something else Bartre has above Treck too.

[grandjackal]

I'm sorry, I thought you said Bern was one of his worse places.

It is, it's just not fantastic for Treck either. However, there clearly is a difference drawn here, as Bern's maps are humongous in comparison to some of the former maps in the game. While Treck's combat may not be fantastic, the move difference is probably most notable here.

Long bow is something else Bartre has above Treck too.

I thought Longbows were C rank.

[dondon151]

I thought Longbows were C rank.

What's the point of saying this when the (easily accessible) site says that Longbows are D rank?

[Narga_Rocks]

It's GJ. Great guy, but you have to accept certain things he does that we may find odd.

[Colonel M]

Thieves have items to pilfer from enemies. While sparse in numbers, they are very important. Delphi Shield is perhaps the biggest one, since it allows flying units (well, Miledy) to solo Sacae. Hell, Chapter 16 has two Red Gems and a Blue Gem to steal. There's also Chapter 14 with all the other items where it's obviously efficient to deploy all three of them to find items (or at the very least 2). You still have stuff to steal, and it at least adds up a revenue for Angelic Robes / Boots. Let's not forget weapons like Killer and Silver (though Silver is iffy). Asthol's combat is nothing to really note on. If anything, he has the better durability to withstand things such as Bolting from Sages after Barrier / Pure Water use.

With Lugh, uh, well, he died in Chapter 7 due to just me being lazy. With regards to dropping him, maybe, though I think that there is some sand bagging. I'm not talking about supports either. Let's recall that Lugh also has the most accurate 2 range, which is somewhat important here when your next bets are Javelin / Hand Axe Marcus, Hand Axe Lot and Ward, Javelin Alan and Lance, and Bows from Wolt. Fuck Bors since he doesn't ever reach maps very well anyway. It doesn't mean much, but unlike Wolt Lugh pierces through Def. Res barely exists in this game period, which helps Lugh a bit. He's also effective with the Armor Knights where your options of killing them involve whittling your Armorslayer, Hammer (which is really inaccurate and requires Marcus to wield Axes for quite a while), or Rapier. The numbers aren't outstanding for Lugh, but keep him in mind he also takes damage rarely in the process.

Still, even if Lugh goes down (which I don't necessarily disagree with. Mid Tier is more suited for him thinking about it), I also think that Roy needs to drop. Unlike Roy, Lugh at least has a potential future that can be reached. It isn't a lot, but it at least comes with the added benefit of being able to heal. The biggest question is what level Lugh would be when the Guiding Ring appears. That to me is the bigger issue here.

Mid to Lower Mid has always been wonky. Feel free to sort more out. Just a reminder, Garret is about where he is because he can sit on Peaks and be useful. His accuracy is okay versus the Wyverns and his Avoid (plus the defense bonus) should allow him to survive most onslaughts and worst case scenarios. Garret is also blessed with 13 Con, thus easier carrying with every flying unit barring Miledy. He could probably stand to drop a little, but Garret vs. Treck is pretty much Peak fighter versus pony, or unit with a crappy fighting start vs. unit with a mediocre-to-low fighting degree.

Also:

- Marcus > Clarine

- Treck > Oujay

I'll see if I can get arguments unraveled for these, but I'm looking at these two and thinking that there should be something different.

[grandjackal]

What's the point of saying this when the (easily accessible) site says that Longbows are D rank?

Got mixed up with the DS games having C rank Longbows. Almost added to the question "Aren't they also sniper only?". I'd have had to slap myself for that.

Though, even I'm surprised I missed it. Longbow with his sort of strength would be pretty cool.

EDIT: Oh hi, Colonel. Looking at your post, I'll just respond with these minor things.

-Lou's level with the FIRST or the SECOND? Cause I'd be hard pressed to think he deserves the first over Saul.

-Can definitely agree with Marcus>Clarine and Treck>Oujay. In fact, I think Oujay could stand to drop a tier.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Amaterasu

[Colonel M]

Just a reminder with Longbow. Bartre has 29 natural Accuracy. Longbow has 55 Hit, which makes it 84. Wyverns have ~22 Avoid, which means Longbow is looking at 62 Displayed, or 71.5% True. It's not bad but... it's not good either. Not to mention that's 37 total Atk (I included eff), and a typical Chapter 13 Wyvern Rider has 37 HP | 13 Def. Shockingly Steel Bow is only about 1 Atk away from OHKOing (49 eff Atk) and it has +10 Acc.

Of course the advantage is further reach, but just so people are aware with Bartre and a Longbow.

Lou's level with the FIRST or the SECOND? Cause I'd be hard pressed to think he deserves the first over Saul.

First, since Warp and the second Guiding Ring are available at the same time.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Tyranel M

[grandjackal]

Just a reminder with Longbow. Bartre has 29 natural Accuracy. Longbow has 55 Hit, which makes it 84. Wyverns have ~22 Avoid, which means Longbow is looking at 62 Displayed, or 71.5% True. It's not bad but... it's not good either. Not to mention that's 37 total Atk (I included eff), and a typical Chapter 13 Wyvern Rider has 37 HP | 13 Def. Shockingly Steel Bow is only about 1 Atk away from OHKOing (49 eff Atk) and it has +10 Acc.

Of course the advantage is further reach, but just so people are aware with Bartre and a Longbow.

But of course, thus why I said cool and not gamechanging.

However, 1 point away from OHKO? Damn. If only B with Fir were faster.

First, since Warp and the second Guiding Ring are available at the same time.

Well, lemme check some stats here. If both were level 10 (since Saul's cutting it close, and people have trouble getting Lou to 8 before chapter 9), Lou's got 2 more magic and Elfire, adding to a total of 5 more might than Saul. Pretty sizable advantage. Just one problem.

He's got about 11 AS, which is cool for exactly chapter 9 before it becomes obsolete, and we just killed Lou's leveling speed on top of it. Saul's 14 AS is much more solid, and comes with the further boons of Saul getting a faster leveling speed (Bishop class levels as if it has Elite/Paragon), and +3 range on Physic.

So yeah, Early Sage Lou would be cool for all of 1 chapter. Once 11 AS becomes obsolete, Saul's simply better because he doesn't need a wing to double.

[-Cynthia-]

I guess the thing with Cath is that we can field her and have her replace Astohl in thievery duties, but why bother? He's more durable and has better offense. You could argue fielding her over Chad to get items in the desert, but that's hardly Mid tier performance.

Does Garret's peak utility even matter outside of C22? Also, unlike Gonzales Garret has inferior offense to many units since he can't double much of anything, so being able to survive a lot of enemies isn't that helpful.