FE6 HM Tier List

[Duff Ostrich]

Okay, that all seems to make sense. I might take a look at that 0% run to get a better idea of this carrying/dropping strategy. But I do have a couple of questions:

Are we giving Thany kills/levelups? I'm assuming being the first flier is the one and only reason she's in high tier. If she's not getting kills, then it makes sense to replace her with basically any of the other fliers later on. If she is... well, she still pretty much has unsalvageable combat stats. I don't see it being all that worthwhile to give her kills, but I imagine that this is an issue you guys have hashed out before. Zeiss and to a lesser extent Juno have about a third of the game to fly, but they both seem to be stuck in the same spots on the tier that they always have. How much has flying utility been considered into their position on the list? Tate at least definitely seems higher than she used to be, and higher than her raw combat stats would otherwise put her.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Duff Ostrich

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

If I have understood anything right Thany is kept along because when it comes to flying utility you basically want it all

[-Cynthia-]

Thany is your only flier for a decent portion of the game.

Yunno only has like 6 chapters total, and is already competing with 4 other fliers. Zeiss may be too low, especially since his combat isn't all that terrible.

[A2ZOMG]

Bump.

Marcus in high tier? Things certainly do change. I always figured he stopped being an asset once you hit the desert. Is he getting any supports?

C Walt is viable and possible to get for a few chapters in the earlygame. Despite the move difference it works quite well actually given you can have Marcus in front of Walt weakening things and then have Walt finish things off without taking a counter. Double Ice affinity support is extra good for both characters mainly for the hit bonus, though the defense bonus is also nice when Marcus is tanking things. For the most part this support is non-intrusive in a normal playthrough given that these are both units you want to ditch after the earlygame.

Are we giving Thany kills/levelups? I'm assuming being the first flier is the one and only reason she's in high tier. If she's not getting kills, then it makes sense to replace her with basically any of the other fliers later on. If she is... well, she still pretty much has unsalvageable combat stats. I don't see it being all that worthwhile to give her kills, but I imagine that this is an issue you guys have hashed out before. Zeiss and to a lesser extent Juno have about a third of the game to fly, but they both seem to be stuck in the same spots on the tier that they always have. How much has flying utility been considered into their position on the list? Tate at least definitely seems higher than she used to be, and higher than her raw combat stats would otherwise put her.

Thany also has h4x speed and supports, and her hitrates are above average. One of the better support units in the game. Both Deak and Lot want to support this character if she is fielded because their supports with her are fast and give them bonuses they actually want (offense). There's also not much competition for her getting a C with Roy, assuming Alan and Lance get Bs with Roy, and if Deak and Lot get Bs with Thany. She has no trouble DAing most enemies in this game even when weighed down by heavy weapons and the supports she get all give her offense as well. Edited June 9, 2011 by A2ZOMG

[I.M. Gei]

Why are we having Wolt killing anything, again...?

[A2ZOMG]

Why are we having Wolt killing anything, again...?

Why is this a problem? Using Walt to kill something Marcus weakened is much safer than sending someone else to go and kill it unless it's Lugh or Rutger basically who aren't available until chapter 3 and 4 respectively, especially if said enemy is wielding a lance. Hitrates are not perfect in this game and taking a counter sucks. The fact Walt has reasonably accurate ranged weaponry and a full hit support with Marcus, your best earlygame unit, should be abused. Edited June 9, 2011 by A2ZOMG

[dondon151]

lol earlygame supports

But seriously, why give kills to Wolt instead of any other unit? That's EXP, gone forever. And why is Wolt's job getting kills instead of weakening enemies? It's a lot safer to let a 1 range unit get the killing attack and have Wolt weaken elsewhere than to have Wolt get the killing attack and have the other unit do nothing.

[Dark Sage]

More importantly, why the hell is Roy over Lugh, let alone Zealot? In fact, why are Lugh and Roy even in Upper Mid?

First off, let's compare 4/0 Roy and 1/0 Lugh at Chapter 4:

Roy: 20 HP, 11 atk (w/Rapier), 14 crit, 5.8 defense, 20 avoid

Lugh: 16 HP, 9 atk, 2 crit, 2 defense, 17 avoid

Now it looks like Roy has a durability advantage right? Well he does against Nomads and 13-14 attack Iron Sword cavs. Against all the lance cavs, he is 2RKO'd, just like Lugh even if he does proc 6 defense. Also keep in mind that Roy needs to eat a counter whenever he wants to attack something while Lugh doesn't and keep in mind all the chokepoints early on in Chapter 4 (the most difficult portion of it).

Continuing on the durability tangent, even if Roy procs 6 defense, he dies if he faces a combo of a 16 attack lance cav and a 15 attack sword cav which are not uncommon. I will say though that Roy does edge out Lugh against 10 AS nomads, who double and ORKO Lugh.

Now what about offense? Keep in mind neither are doubling well...anything. Let's take a typical cav on the map.

L3 Cav: 30 HP, 13(16 w/Iron Lance) Atk, 98 hit, 8 AS, 19 avoid, 8 def, 1 res.

Roy's 11 attack becomes 21 attack and does 13 damage, a 3RKO while being 3RKO'd in return. This is assuming of course that the cav is not wielding a lance. If he is, Roy's attack becomes 18 attack and while it's still a 3RKO, the cav is a 2RKO. Lugh 4RKO's them without taking a counter which I'd arguably say balances out Roy's extra damage. Lugh's doing similar damage that Lance and Alan are doing to cavs so it's not like he has the worst offense on the map or anything. The 27 HP/4 def/0 res archers are 3RKO'd by Lugh, 4RKO'd by Roy. They're evenly matched in offense against Nomads.

Chapter 5 Roy does have the advantage, no question. But even though Lugh can be oneshotted, he still has free deployment and he can toss around fire spells on enemies that can't counter him and he can accumulate positive utility. Even if he just sits in a corner doing nothing, he's never a negative.

Chapter 6 is lance heavy and has mages and armors, which gives Lugh a further advantage against Roy and Lugh can help chip wyverns in Chapter 7. There's a lot of forest terrain and Lugh could build up a C with Ellen possibly by now. Chapter 8 they both have pretty bad move for the chapter, but Lugh doubles all the armors and soldiers and hits Resistance, so that'd give him another advantage.

I guess on the isles, Roy has the advantage as a sword user, but Lugh can continue to chip against 1 range enemies. Later on once he gets access to Aircalibur, he gets wyvern killing utility and from Chapter 13 and onwards, I'd say it's all Lugh's game from then on.

Even if you disagree with my analysis, Roy still has to deal with a late promotion while Lugh can promote whenever he wants. In other words, Lugh at least has a potential future just sitting in a forest or mountain tile with Aircalibur and murder wyverns. In Ilia, he can also deal significant damage to pegs and falcos. Roy cannot.

Still, Lugh has issues doubling unless given a Speedwing which can cut into his offense. Let's look at the top speedwing candidates:

Alan

Dieck

Lot

Lugh's a distant fourth but I would like to say that Lugh can at least make use of a speedwing better than Roy can.

Now let's look at supports. Honestly, Roy's supports are better than Lugh's, but I have to say they're overrated. Roy's best supports, Alan and Lance, have a move distance and it only widens later on when they promote. It requires a mounted unit to carry him and keep nearby to even keep the support bounuses, which cuts into that unit's AS, hit, and avoid which is a disadvantage. Now it's true that Lugh's partners are worse units, but Ellen is actually not bad. Ellen is quick and offers full attack, which is Lugh is most interested. Ellen is also not unlikely to be played either.

I dunno. To me, Lugh is the definition of average and Roy's not very good.

[A2ZOMG]

Can't disagree with the statements about Lugh vs Roy.

lol earlygame supports

But seriously, why give kills to Wolt instead of any other unit? That's EXP, gone forever. And why is Wolt's job getting kills instead of weakening enemies? It's a lot safer to let a 1 range unit get the killing attack and have Wolt weaken elsewhere than to have Wolt get the killing attack and have the other unit do nothing.

Why pretend that such a small EXP loss for other units matters when it increases efficiency? The earlygame chapters are the hardest ones in this game where you need every little bit from every unit possible to have the best chance of survival. Walt isn't the only unit getting kills, but the ones he gets are safe to go for especially when he can directly support Marcus. The chance of death is very existent in earlygame given the relatively high density of enemies and due to the limited supply of healing available, so it's not like you can simply rush through chapters with anyone besides Marcus, who isn't even invincible. The only character at any rate you don't want to give kills to is Marcus, who kills are in fact wasted on given the way the game is structured, he's meant to weaken enemies, not oneround them. For any other unit who is gaining experience normally in the early game, anything they contribute is more helpful than the experience they "take" from other units, even though in reality using more unpromoted units actually increases the amount of EXP that is available compared to giving it to fewer units.

Say if Marcus weakened a single enemy for me on the player phase, who would I send to kill it? If it's an axe user, I'm perfectly fine with sending a sword user to finish it off. A lance user on the other hand where now my sword users are at WTD? I'm gonna shoot at it with Walt first if I'm trying to make sure nobody dies earlygame.

Training Walt isn't completely pointless anyway. Chapter 7 has Wyverns, which are problematic. Steel Bow Walt especially factoring Marcus supports isn't a joke against these guys. Aside from Lugh, Lot, Marcus, Zealot, nobody else really has much business with the Wyverns on that chapter.

Edited June 10, 2011 by A2ZOMG

[Anouleth]

Why pretend that such a small EXP loss for other units matters when it increases efficiency?

How is giving exp to Wolt who has no potential and poor growths efficient when we could give it to someone with potential and good growths, like Alan or Lance?

The earlygame chapters are the hardest ones in this game where you need every little bit from every unit possible to have the best chance of survival.

Which is why you want Wolt to be weakening enemies so that other units (like Alan, Lance, Lot) can finish them without taking a counter.

Walt isn't the only unit getting kills, but the ones he gets are safe to go for especially when he can directly support Marcus.

Why? The support is not amazingly fast, they don't share movement. Marcus is often charging ahead because he's our best, most mobile unit. Wolt has no enemy phase and no durability. He cannot keep up, nor do we want him to. How does the support that probably won't be formed for a couple of chapters help Wolt now? How does it make his kills more 'safe'?

The chance of death is very existent in earlygame given the relatively high density of enemies and due to the limited supply of healing available

Vulneraries, Ellen, Saul, Clarine. There is plenty of healing available for those that need it.

so it's not like you can simply rush through chapters with anyone besides Marcus, who isn't even invincible. The only character at any rate you don't want to give kills to is Marcus, who kills are in fact wasted on given the way the game is structured, he's meant to weaken enemies, not oneround them.

Even Marcus gets some benefit from gaining experience. It might allow him to double in the Western Isles and generally boosts his stats, extending his good period. Certainly, I would prefer EXP on someone like him than on someone like Wolt who is likely never going to be deployed after Chapter 5.

True, Marcus is not invincible, but it is not hard to go so fast that a character as pathetic as Wolt is left in the dust.

For any other unit who is gaining experience normally in the early game, anything they contribute is more helpful than the experience they "take" from other units,

You don't seem to understand. Say we have Alan and Wolt and an enemy Soldier. Both Alan and Wolt 2HKO and don't double. We can either have Alan weaken and Wolt finish, or the other way around. Obviously, it is better for Alan to finish in every way. This is because:

-It prevents Alan from taking damage

-Alan has better growths

-Alan has a better class and base stats and thus greater potential than Wolt, who is an archer

even though in reality using more unpromoted units actually increases the amount of EXP that is available compared to giving it to fewer units.

It might increase it, but it is being less useful. I would much rather have a level 8 Alan/Lance/Lot/Dieck going into Chapter 7 than a level 5 Alan/Lance/Lot/Dieck/Wolt/Bors/Chad. We want to focus our kills on the units who have growth potential, not only because they end up better, but because a smaller team of stronger units is usually better than a larger team of weaker units.

[A2ZOMG]

How is giving exp to Wolt who has no potential and poor growths efficient when we could give it to someone with potential and good growths, like Alan or Lance?

How is this a problem when there are PLENTY of enemies to kill in this game? You don't lose much EXP by just giving kills to another unit, in fact as a whole you have a net gain of EXP by using more unpromoted units. Alan and Lance are not invincible or even close to it earlygame, and enemy density is high enough that there's going to be more units to kill than just Alan and Lance can handle on the player phase.

Also Walt's growths are not terrible, only his bases are. His skill growth in particular is good, and this is an important stat to be strong in especially when most units aren't doubling things. Besides soldiers and armors, most other enemies in this game don't get doubled by anyone except Marcus, Thany, Rutger, and occasionally Deak.

Which is why you want Wolt to be weakening enemies so that other units (like Alan, Lance, Lot) can finish them without taking a counter.

Enemies actually have HP in this game, so the only way you're weakening enemies without getting completely killed by counters is using Marcus. With the exception of the occasional soldier, most enemies you usually want to weaken with Marcus, and then finish them off without taking a counter.

Why? The support is not amazingly fast, they don't share movement. Marcus is often charging ahead because he's our best, most mobile unit. Wolt has no enemy phase and no durability. He cannot keep up, nor do we want him to. How does the support that probably won't be formed for a couple of chapters help Wolt now? How does it make his kills more 'safe'?

Why are we sending Marcus way ahead of everyone when the point of using Marcus is to have him weaken enemies so that they can be killed without taking a counter? You definitely don't want to take a counter from Soldiers in this game, so it's not favorable to send your Cavs or Roy against them just because they "need" experience. You have other options, such as sending your axe users, Lugh, or Wolt at them to not take a counter.

Also not amazingly fast? Walt Marcus is a 20/2 support. It only takes 20 turns to get a C support. This can reasonably happen within 3 chapters, and Marcus definitely wants this support if he's playing the support/tanking role.

Vulneraries, Ellen, Saul, Clarine. There is plenty of healing available for those that need it.

I do hope you're joking when you said Vulneraries. Vulneraries fail since they consume a turn and only heal 10 HP, which most enemies can easily exceed in terms of raw damage per single hit. Clarine joins in the middle of Chapter 4, and Saul joins in Chapter 6. Especially in Chapter 4, I don't know where you get the idea that it's actually easy for two healers and Vulneraries to be sufficient for survival alone.

Even Marcus gets some benefit from gaining experience. It might allow him to double in the Western Isles and generally boosts his stats, extending his good period. Certainly, I would prefer EXP on someone like him than on someone like Wolt who is likely never going to be deployed after Chapter 5.

True, Marcus is not invincible, but it is not hard to go so fast that a character as pathetic as Wolt is left in the dust.

Why again is Marcus using all his movement? Most of your group doesn't move this fast, and if you're playing to support the group with Marcus like you're supposed to, Marcus isn't going to be using all 8 of his move. You only need Marcus to use all his move in rare circumstances. Just because he has 8 move doesn't make it harder for him to support Wolt, if anything it makes it easier.

You don't seem to understand. Say we have Alan and Wolt and an enemy Soldier. Both Alan and Wolt 2HKO and don't double. We can either have Alan weaken and Wolt finish, or the other way around. Obviously, it is better for Alan to finish in every way. This is because:

-It prevents Alan from taking damage

-Alan has better growths

-Alan has a better class and base stats and thus greater potential than Wolt, who is an archer

Fair enough. However a more reliable situation in general is having Marcus weaken things and then having all of your units one at a time finish things off. If there is a choice to kill someone with Walt or someone else though, Walt's ability to use accurate 2-ranged weaponry can't be ignored due to being safe, especially when we go back to my argument that healing is limited. Obviously if enemy density is low, prioritizing kills to preferred units is fine as long as you're not overwhelming your healers. However during Chapter 4 for instance, there's more enemies than your healers can handle, so the ability to not take a counter during the player phase has to be highlighted, especially given with C Marcus, level 3 Walt's base hitrates with Iron do reach the mid 90s, while someone like level 4 Alan with C Lance wielding Iron (sword or lance to clarify) will have a base hitrate in the 80s if he's targeting a lance user.

It might increase it, but it is being less useful. I would much rather have a level 8 Alan/Lance/Lot/Dieck going into Chapter 7 than a level 5 Alan/Lance/Lot/Dieck/Wolt/Bors/Chad. We want to focus our kills on the units who have growth potential, not only because they end up better, but because a smaller team of stronger units is usually better than a larger team of weaker units.

I used all those units in a normal playthrough and it wasn't hard to get Alan/Lance/Lot/Deak to level 7 while having the other units besides Bors at level 5-6ish. I'm not sure what you're getting at. Experience is nowhere nearly as limited as you say it is, and the difference between a fraction of a level usually isn't going to be that significant unless it makes the difference between doubling or not, which generally isn't going to be extremely relevant until the Western Isles.

And Walt is not terrible on Chapter 7 if only because he actually is one of your better units for handling the Wyverns. By then, B Marcus is a possibility. Level 5ish Walt with that support should have about 88 hit with Steel Bow, which I think should be displayed hit in about the mid 60 or possibly higher on the Wyverns. About 32.6 mt on a Wyvern. Not bad at all.

Edited June 10, 2011 by A2ZOMG

[dondon151]

Why pretend that such a small EXP loss for other units matters when it increases efficiency?

Here's the problem: it doesn't. Lance and Alan in particular outrange Wolt with their melee weapons. Anything that Wolt can KO, they can KO just as easily - base Lance has the same atk as base Wolt with an Iron Bow, Lance has higher skl (and typically WTA), and Iron Sword has 5 more hit than Iron Bow.

Dieck and Rutger are also good recipients of kill EXP. Barring the extremely unlikely circumstances where:

- Lance and Alan have already made an action

- Dieck and Rutger are not able to attack an enemy but Wolt is

Wolt is never a good recipient of kill EXP. The best way to use him is to weaken an enemy for another unit to KO safely, and ditch him past like chapter 4.

The earlygame chapters are the hardest ones in this game where you need every little bit from every unit possible to have the best chance of survival. Walt isn't the only unit getting kills, but the ones he gets are safe to go for especially when he can directly support Marcus. The chance of death is very existent in earlygame given the relatively high density of enemies and due to the limited supply of healing available, so it's not like you can simply rush through chapters with anyone besides Marcus, who isn't even invincible.

Two problems with this:

1. Wolt is never supporting Marcus. Wolt and Marcus need 20 adjacents for a C. Marcus never wants Wolt anywhere around him because it's bad for his enemy phases, and Wolt can't keep up anyway because of 5 move vs. 8 move.

2. Of course you can rush through chapters with Marcus. Chapters 1, 2, 3, 6 are all Marcus rushes, and he's really important in chapter 4.

The only character at any rate you don't want to give kills to is Marcus, who kills are in fact wasted on given the way the game is structured, he's meant to weaken enemies, not oneround them. For any other unit who is gaining experience normally in the early game, anything they contribute is more helpful than the experience they "take" from other units, even though in reality using more unpromoted units actually increases the amount of EXP that is available compared to giving it to fewer units.

You're really twisting my argument around into a tangled mess. You don't want to feed KOs to Marcus if you can help it, but if he ORKOs 4 soldiers on enemy phase to make the chapter go faster, then there's a good reason to pass that up. Wolt is never going to be in that situation where him taking a KO over Lance, Alan, Dieck, or Rutger will significantly impact the progress of the chapter.

Say if Marcus weakened a single enemy for me on the player phase, who would I send to kill it? If it's an axe user, I'm perfectly fine with sending a sword user to finish it off. A lance user on the other hand where now my sword users are at WTD? I'm gonna shoot at it with Walt first if I'm trying to make sure nobody dies earlygame.

This hypothetical doesn't leave any room for important nuances. How important is it for the unit to KO the enemy? If the unit misses, does he have a chance at dying on the next turn? Are there no other units available to take the KO? If it isn't absolutely important to KO the enemy, then I'd definitely take the chance with a melee unit. Even if it were, I'd still take the chance depending on the hit rate.

Training Walt isn't completely pointless anyway. Chapter 7 has Wyverns, which are problematic. Steel Bow Walt especially factoring Marcus supports isn't a joke against these guys.

Wolt with his, what, 79 hit before enemy avoid using a Steel Bow? Let me just tell you that if Wolt misses his sub-60 hit attack, he's dead on enemy phase. Base Sue has more hit than Wolt until the former reaches level 7 on average and also has more flexibility with a horse.

[Anouleth]

How is this a problem when there are PLENTY of enemies to kill in this game? You don't lose much EXP by just giving kills to another unit, in fact as a whole you have a net gain of EXP by using more unpromoted units.

Except it's badly distributed by going to shitty units like Wolt.

Alan and Lance are not invincible or even close to it earlygame, and enemy density is high enough that there's going to be more units to kill than just Alan and Lance can handle on the player phase.

I had no trouble at all funnelling all of my kills into Alan/Lance/Lot/Dieck/Lugh.

Also Walt's growths are not terrible, only his bases are. His skill growth in particular is good, and this is an important stat to be strong in especially when most units aren't doubling things. Besides soldiers and armors, most other enemies in this game don't get doubled by anyone except Marcus, Thany, Rutger, and occasionally Deak.

Walt is:

-Never going to double

-Never going to have enemy phase

-Never going to be used past Chapter 5

Whereas other characters might double, and might have good enemy phase, and might be used past chapter 5. Thus, their growth is better because it makes a meaningful difference in their performance.

Enemies actually have HP in this game, so the only way you're weakening enemies without getting completely killed by counters is using Marcus. With the exception of the occasional soldier, most enemies you usually want to weaken with Marcus, and then finish them off without taking a counter.

Specifically, you want to finish them off with a non-horrible unit.

Why are we sending Marcus way ahead of everyone when the point of using Marcus is to have him weaken enemies so that they can be killed without taking a counter? You definitely don't want to take a counter from Soldiers in this game, so it's not favorable to send your Cavs or Roy against them just because they "need" experience. You have other options, such as sending your axe users, Lugh, or Wolt at them to not take a counter.

Or Marcus could weaken them on enemy phase. Not only does Marcus actually weaken them enough for others to kill (while Wolt doesn't), he can do it to multiple enemies.

Also not amazingly fast? Walt Marcus is a 20/2 support. It only takes 20 turns to get a C support. This can reasonably happen within 3 chapters, and Marcus definitely wants this support if he's playing the support/tanking role.

Or Marcus could support someone who doesn't destroy his enemy phase, who matches movement, who will be deployed after Chapter 5.

I do hope you're joking when you said Vulneraries. Vulneraries fail since they consume a turn and only heal 10 HP, which most enemies can easily exceed in terms of raw damage per single hit. Clarine joins in the middle of Chapter 4, and Saul joins in Chapter 6. Especially in Chapter 4, I don't know where you get the idea that it's actually easy for two healers and Vulneraries to be sufficient for survival alone.

Because I played the chapter.

Why again is Marcus using all his movement? Most of your group doesn't move this fast, and if you're playing to support the group with Marcus like you're supposed to, Marcus isn't going to be using all 8 of his move.

Nor are we going to staple him to Wolt just to build some shitty support.

Fair enough. However a more reliable situation in general is having Marcus weaken things and then having all of your units one at a time finish things off. If there is a choice to kill someone with Walt or someone else though, Walt's ability to use accurate 2-ranged weaponry can't be ignored due to being safe, especially when we go back to my argument that healing is limited.

If you have a choice of killing an enemy with Wolt or someone else, you don't pick Wolt since you are throwing the exp away and Wolt's accuracy isn't even 'that' great except in comparison to like, axe users. And against Lance users, Lot actually gives him a run for his money.

Obviously if enemy density is low, prioritizing kills to preferred units is fine as long as you're not overwhelming your healers. However during Chapter 4 for instance, there's more enemies than your healers can handle, so the ability to not take a counter during the player phase has to be highlighted, especially given with C Marcus, Walt's base hitrates with Iron do reach the mid 90s, while someone like Alan wielding Iron will have a base hitrate in the 80s if he's targeting a lance user.

I still don't care. I'm happy to gum down enemies with Wolt to put them in KO range, but finishing enemies just for the ~3% chance of taking a counter-attack?

I used all those units in a normal playthrough and it wasn't hard to get Alan/Lance/Lot/Deak to level 7 while having the other units besides Bors at level 5-6ish.

I took it as an example, those aren't exact levels. For what it's worth, this is what my team looked like at the end of Chapter 6:

And this was on Hard Mode, not Normal. The tier list assumes you're playing on Hard Mode.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Experience is nowhere nearly as limited as you say it is, and the difference between a fraction of a level usually isn't going to be that significant unless it makes the difference between doubling or not, which generally isn't going to be extremely relevant until the Western Isles.

It's not a fraction of the level. It's often multiple levels, and it does make a difference. That extra level on Wolt does nothing for us. That extra level on Lance might make the difference between 2HKOing and not 2HKOing, or promoting in Chapter 15 and promoting in Chapter 16.

And Walt is not terrible on Chapter 7 if only because he actually is one of your better units for handling the Wyverns. By then, B Marcus is a possibility. Level 5ish Walt with that support should have about 88 hit with Steel Bow, which I think should be displayed hit in about the mid 60s on the Wyverns. About 32.6 mt on a Wyvern. Not bad at all.

Or you can use base level Sue who has more accuracy and 5 strength at base and a mount. And some semblance of long term potential.

[dondon151]

You don't lose much EXP by just giving kills to another unit, in fact as a whole you have a net gain of EXP by using more unpromoted units.

"Net gain of EXP" is not our argument. Gaining 3000 EXP is not better than gaining 2000 EXP if the 3000 EXP is going to scrubs.

Why are we sending Marcus way ahead of everyone when the point of using Marcus is to have him weaken enemies so that they can be killed without taking a counter?

Because Marcus makes the game go faster.

Also not amazingly fast? Walt Marcus is a 20/2 support. It only takes 20 turns to get a C support. This can reasonably happen within 3 chapters, and Marcus definitely wants this support if he's playing the support/tanking role.

Going by my turncounts, chapters 1-3 take 27 turns total. You're implying that Wolt needs to be glued to Marcus on 74% of all turns.

I'm smelling a lot of 2009 logic here.

Edited June 10, 2011 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

Well there's also Miledy and Percival for Speedwings, though those options only really matter in Sacae. But yeah, Roy and Lugh need a good nerf down. I'd agree with right above Bartre there. My only question is if we should think Lugh > Roy or the opposite? Roy has a bit better of an earlygame where as Lugh has a slightly better mid game and arguably better late game.

Marcus in high tier? Things certainly do change. I always figured he stopped being an asset once you hit the desert. Is he getting any supports?

Marcus probably is a unit that could get supports from Alan and Lance, but it isn't worth it in the end. Even though Roy support with them is fairly situational, it helps in clutch instances and it's quick enough to justify it existing.

Even so, stopping from being an asset as soon as Chapter 14 is pretty good to last from Chapter 1 on.

Thany also has h4x speed and supports, and her hitrates are above average. One of the better support units in the game. Both Deak and Lot want to support this character if she is fielded because their supports with her are fast and give them bonuses they actually want (offense). There's also not much competition for her getting a C with Roy, assuming Alan and Lance get Bs with Roy, and if Deak and Lot get Bs with Thany. She has no trouble DAing most enemies in this game even when weighed down by heavy weapons and the supports she get all give her offense as well.

The biggest problem with Thany is scrounging to find offense. Sometimes she barely succeeds killing things with Killer weapons and E Swords is horrible. If she doesn't promote by the Western Isles she is literally boned.

Edited June 10, 2011 by _M_

[A2ZOMG]

I had no trouble at all funnelling all of my kills into Alan/Lance/Lot/Dieck/Lugh.

If you never miss whenever attacking with those units? Mid to lategame sure. Earlygame what?

Walt is:

-Never going to double

-Never going to have enemy phase

-Never going to be used past Chapter 5

Whereas other characters might double, and might have good enemy phase, and might be used past chapter 5. Thus, their growth is better because it makes a meaningful difference in their performance.

Not doubling is acceptable if you're not taking a counter. Never having an enemy phase is why you have other units.

Or Marcus could weaken them on enemy phase. Not only does Marcus actually weaken them enough for others to kill (while Wolt doesn't), he can do it to multiple enemies.

Or Marcus could support someone who doesn't destroy his enemy phase, who matches movement, who will be deployed after Chapter 5.

How does supporting Walt destroy his enemy phase? You have other foot units who take longer to get in range, and there isn't a point in putting Marcus that much further ahead if your units can't reach that far. Marcus supporting the cavs is silly. Marcus supporting Roy is even more silly given that Marcus is rarely being used to kill and Roy doesn't have ranged weaponry, though I guess you could go the Javelin/Handaxe route on the player phase. Walt doesn't get in the way of what Marcus does. This is especially useful Chapter 5 given that they both start on the left side of the map.

Because I played the chapter.

And I think you're understating how bad the worst case scenario can be in chapter 4.

Nor are we going to staple him to Wolt just to build some shitty support.

Except Walt almost never actually gets in the way of what Marcus does.

I still don't care. I'm happy to gum down enemies with Wolt to put them in KO range, but finishing enemies just for the ~3% chance of taking a counter-attack?

Especially given that supporting Marcus improves his ability to tank, which is desirable, it's not unreasonable to be giving kills to Walt.

*pic* And this was on Hard Mode, not Normal. The tier list assumes you're playing on Hard Mode.

Looks reasonable.

It's not a fraction of the level. It's often multiple levels, and it does make a difference. That extra level on Wolt does nothing for us. That extra level on Lance might make the difference between 2HKOing and not 2HKOing, or promoting in Chapter 15 and promoting in Chapter 16.

I'm not sure what you're expecting Lance to 2HKO. Maybe mages and soldiers? They're not in overly huge supply. And over the course of 8~ more chapters, you gain slightly more experience to make up for being slightly underleveled, and there are larger numbers of enemies in later chapters than in early ones, though comparatively not as difficult to take out as earlygame. Furthermore I'm not sure what's your point about Lance possibly promoting in Chapter 16 when it's entirely possible for Alan to be promoting before him, and Chapter 16 is when you get the second Knight Crest as I recall. Lance even if he DAs isn't exactly onerounding everything with regular weaponry with supports factored, so you might end up giving more kills to Alan in that situation to finish off whatever Lance didn't kill.

Or you can use base level Sue who has more accuracy and 5 strength at base and a mount. And some semblance of long term potential.

Except Walt has the ability to get an Ice Ice support with Marcus which makes him more accurate than Sue. And a 1 str difference isn't a big deal when it's the Steel Bow that the Wyvern has to be afraid of. Edited June 10, 2011 by A2ZOMG

[dondon151]

Not doubling is acceptable if you're not taking a counter. Never having an enemy phase is why you have other units.

Says who? Doubling is completely unrelated to taking counters. Bad offense that's only usable once per turn isn't salvageable by not getting hit. Sure, it doesn't compound the problem, but it hardly makes Wolt acceptable.

How does supporting Walt destroy his enemy phase?

It's not supporting Wolt that destroys Marcus's enemy phase; it's getting them to support that's the culprit. In order to support Marcus with Wolt, they either need to be adjacent or Wolt needs to be in Marcus's saddlebags. If they're adjacent, Marcus's enemy phase is gimped because enemies will go for Wolt instead, who will do no damage on counter and ends up being a liability. If Marcus is rescuing, Marcus's enemy phase is gimped because he'll take more damage, he'll lose any chance he had at doubling, and he'll hit less often. To reach C, the player has to gimp 20 of Marcus's enemy phases - inefficiency at its finest.

You have other foot units who take longer to get in range, and there isn't a point in putting Marcus that much further ahead if your units can't reach that far.

Sure there is. He weakens enemies so that other player units can catch up to him next turn and clean them up. He makes the chapter go by faster. Marcus only has a 1 move advantage on Alan and Lance, so it's not very difficult to have either of them catch up and transfer Roy to Marcus. If they were moving at their maximum movement on every turn, it would take 7 turns for Marcus to be completely unreachable by either Alan or Lance. That's not going to happen in a real context. But at the same time, Marcus has 3 more move than typical foot units and will build an advantage on them regardless. So if Wolt wants to keep up with Marcus (who, by the way, is the best enemy phase unit available), then Alan and Lance have to help him along. Compared to helping along someone more helpful, such as, say, Dieck, you can easily tell which is the better option.

Marcus supporting the cavs is silly.

How so? It's the same speed as the ludicrous Wolt support, and Alan and Lance match movement more closely. Neither of them have a good second option aside from each other (no, Roy is not a good option). I still agree that this support is silly because it will never happen on an efficient playthrough, but at least this suggestion floats on water, whereas the Wolt support capsizes like a ton of bricks.

Walt doesn't get in the way of what Marcus does.

Marcus has the best enemy phase on the team. Wolt has no enemy phase whatsoever. Something doesn't seem right about your statement, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

Especially given that supporting Marcus improves his ability to tank, which is desirable, it's not unreasonable to be giving kills to Walt.

Double ice at C rank gives negligible bonuses - only +1 def, +5 hit, +5 avo. The support won't even be in play a lot of the time. That is hardly a reason to field a combat failure that has no redeeming qualities aside from not taking counters on player phase, but then again, I'm not sure if the 5 HP chip damage is worth it.

Except Walt has the ability to get an Ice Ice support with Marcus which makes him more accurate than Sue. And a 1 str difference isn't a big deal when it's the Steel Bow that the Wyvern has to be afraid of.

That support is never happening. Furthermore, Sue has more flexible positioning due to having +2 move on Wolt and has the potential to rescue units that get in trouble.

Edited June 10, 2011 by dondon151

[A2ZOMG]

The main problem I have with the arguments here is that Marcus is not invincible. Yes he is by far your best unit on the enemy phase earlygame, but he's not invincible. He can actually die in around 5 or so hits earlygame, and his evade, while the best on the team, isn't perfect at only 32 base.

Why you suggest Walt is going to be placed in range of enemy attacks to hinder Marcus's tanking doesn't make sense when it's preferable to counter enemies in a way that reduces chance of death to improve consistency. Also corridors, while not the majority of earlygame maps, do exist. And when you block a linear path of movement, the most efficient way to attack is with a ranged unit behind a melee unit. Your cavs can't take advantage of this as easily, given Javelins are silly on any character not named Marcus (and they're still iffy on him, and generally remain iffy for the entire game), and so is taking a counter with anyone not named Marcus, Deak, or Lot (and only occasionally Bors against weak sword wielders). Walt however has Bows, and his chip is usually enough to finish off what Marcus weakens. Besides Lugh he's your most accurate ranged user.

That +5 evade and hit isn't insignificant when in the first place your hitrates tend to be very iffy in this game until you get Rutger/Lugh. And Marcus definitely wants that +5 hit if he decides to use ranged weaponry, since for example, a 50% (theoretical) hitrate becomes about 60% with a displayed increase of 5 hit. Or if say on Chapter 5 the Bandits decide to chill on peaks. As for Marcus's defenses and his 32 HP, that +1 defense against an enemy that does 7 damage against Marcus which 5HKOs now only does 6 and 6HKOs. Or it turns a 4HKO from 8 damage attacks into a 5HKO. It's not irrelevant, especially if it means better management of healing.

Edited June 10, 2011 by A2ZOMG

[Aquilae]

Marcus can't get that support, period.

1. Marcus has 8 Move and Wolt has 5.

2. Enemies will start to target Wolt instead of Marcus if he is next to him.

3. Alternatively, you can put Marcus in range of only one enemy, or none at all. He has no enemy phase then.

4. Wolt has no enemy phase and lackluster durability, he might die. Even if he survives, he deals a total of 0 damage to the enemies.

Wolt's chip is very weak, as Bows have low Mt. He doesn't double and his Strength is lackluster. Even if you dump boatloads of EXP on him, he still lacks enemy phase and is extremely inflexible.

[Toothache]

Low might isn't as much of a problem. An Iron Bow has the same Mt as a Javelin, for example, and notably more accurate and lighter too. Wolt suffers for damage output in terms of his 4 base 40% Str growth, however.

[Anouleth]

That +5 evade and hit isn't insignificant when in the first place your hitrates tend to be very iffy in this game until you get Rutger/Lugh. And Marcus definitely wants that +5 hit if he decides to use ranged weaponry, since for example, a 50% (theoretical) hitrate becomes about 60% with a displayed increase of 5 hit. Or if say on Chapter 5 the Bandits decide to chill on peaks. As for Marcus's defenses and his 32 HP, that +1 defense against an enemy that does 7 damage against Marcus which 5HKOs now only does 6 and 6HKOs. Or it turns a 4HKO from 8 damage attacks into a 5HKO. It's not irrelevant, especially if it means better management of healing.

The best way to deal with Chapter 5 is to drop Marcus onto the LHS Fort with Thany. Wolt cannot join him, nor does he need the support between the fort defense boost and healing.

In chapter 6, it's unlikely we will even field Wolt since Dorothy is free and Lugh is just better.

In chapter 7, Sue has better mobility. She also has the same accuracy at base as level 3 Wolt even if he has his C support, and the same damage output.

Chapter 8 is enormous and we want to minimise the ratio of foot units to mounted units. There is certainly not room for a unit that is as horrible as Wolt when we have four Cavaliers, two Paladins, a Nomad, a Mage, a Mercenary, a Fighter, a Myrmidon, and a Troubadour jockeying for deployment slots, all of whom outperform him in combat.

[A2ZOMG]

And what is everyone else supposed to do chapter 5? Let Marcus kill more enemies that I could have let other lower leveled units with real growth rates take advantage of in preparation for chapter 7? If we're going to argue that Walt taking a few kills here and there earlygame is somehow detrimental to the team even though in fact his ability to not take a counter on the player phase is undeniably useful in its safety, unless I missed something, Marcus is definitely taking a good number of kills with that strategy. I'm not seeing the consistency here. We obviously want to not get assraped by chapter 7, and Walt having a bigger level lead than just 2 levels isn't unreasonable, at which point he is preferable to Sue both in terms of accuracy and durability factoring the Marcus support.

[Anouleth]

And what is everyone else supposed to do chapter 5? Let Marcus kill more enemies that I could have let other lower leveled units with real growth rates take advantage of in preparation for chapter 7? If we're going to argue that Walt taking a few kills here and there earlygame is somehow detrimental to the team even though in fact his ability to not take a counter on the player phase is undeniably useful in its safety, unless I missed something, Marcus is definitely taking a good number of kills with that strategy. I'm not seeing the consistency here.

Marcus taking a lot of kills makes the chapter much, much easier. Chapter 5 is very annoying and without doing this, you are effectively forced to take the extremely long route to the north.

We obviously want to not get assraped by chapter 7, and Walt having a bigger level lead than just 2 levels isn't unreasonable, at which point he is preferable to Sue both in terms of accuracy and durability factoring the Marcus support.

When all Wolt is doing is chipping and sometimes not even that, 2 or 3 levels seems reasonable.

[Shadow Mir]

And what is everyone else supposed to do chapter 5? Let Marcus kill more enemies that I could have let other lower leveled units with real growth rates take advantage of in preparation for chapter 7? If we're going to argue that Walt taking a few kills here and there earlygame is somehow detrimental to the team even though in fact his ability to not take a counter on the player phase is undeniably useful in its safety, unless I missed something, Marcus is definitely taking a good number of kills with that strategy. I'm not seeing the consistency here. We obviously want to not get assraped by chapter 7, and Walt having a bigger level lead than just 2 levels isn't unreasonable, at which point he is preferable to Sue both in terms of accuracy and durability factoring the Marcus support.

I have no idea whatsoever why you continue to defend the idea of Marcus supporting Wolt, really...

[Life]

And what is everyone else supposed to do chapter 5? Let Marcus kill more enemies that I could have let other lower leveled units with real growth rates take advantage of in preparation for chapter 7? If we're going to argue that Walt taking a few kills here and there earlygame is somehow detrimental to the team even though in fact his ability to not take a counter on the player phase is undeniably useful in its safety, unless I missed something, Marcus is definitely taking a good number of kills with that strategy. I'm not seeing the consistency here. We obviously want to not get assraped by chapter 7, and Walt having a bigger level lead than just 2 levels isn't unreasonable, at which point he is preferable to Sue both in terms of accuracy and durability factoring the Marcus support.

I'm going to show you something pretty interesting. I think you'll like it.

In chapter 6, we receive both Dorthy and Sue. Sue can't effectively fight but we can compare Wolt to Dorthy. Heck, I'll even throw in that Marcus support you give Wolt for the sake of it (which ain't happening, mind you) along with a very unreasonable level.

Dorthy - Level 3 Archer - D Bows
Steel Bow: 14 Atk, 78 Hit, 4 AS, 3 Crit
19 HP, 4 Def, 2 Res, 11 Avo, 3 Crit Evade

Wolt - Level 5 Archer - D Bows - C Marcus
Iron Bow: 12 Atk, 101 Hit, 7 AS, 3 Crit
21 HP, 6 Def, 0 Res, 23 Avo, 9 Crit Evade

So, what can Wolt do that Dorthy can't? Well, he's got higher hit but that only comes from a Marcus support (which isn't happening not to mention that Marcus is going to be nowhere near Wolt during this chapter) and the Iron Bow having 15+ hit, while still doing less than Dorthy. Sure, he doubles but he doubles what, exactly? Soldiers and Knights. He tinks the Knights and only wins on the Soldiers if Dorthy can't pull Spd in on her next level (and she's got a 45% chance of gaining a point there). Everything else, Dorthy beats him due to higher damage. Sure you can argue that Dorthy only does higher damage due to the Steel Bow but Wolt does 1 more damage than her and his AS sinks to 5 (same place as Dorthy gaining Spd). So, he's not special.

Defensively? Well, to 2HKO the big boy here, 17 Atk needs to be reached (or less by a mage or someone who doubles him). That would be... everything on the map except for Javelin wielding soldiers. Yippie. Love how that Marcus support is helping him. No better than Dorthy. Oh and Dorthy is also a 3HKO by Javelin soldiers so she's essentially just as durable

So tell me. What does sinking 4 levels and an unreasonable support from Marcus do for Wolt that can't be replicated by base Dorthy?