Anouleth Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Dorothy is free, so she doesn't compete for a deployment slot. It would be more appropriate to compare Wolt to Lugh, who does take a deployment slot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted June 10, 2011 Author Share Posted June 10, 2011 (edited) So tell me. What does sinking 4 levels and an unreasonable support from Marcus do for Wolt that can't be replicated by base Dorthy? Having 5 chapters to participate in where he / she is absolute shit. Case closed Life. I have you cornered now! Dorothy is free, so she doesn't compete for a deployment slot. It would be more appropriate to compare Wolt to Lugh, who does take a deployment slot. Oh man, now you're really pressing hard here. Do you have any evidence to support Lugh being better than Wolt with C Marcus? I'd love to see you try, herr Anouleth! Edited June 10, 2011 by _M_ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 (edited) Dorothy is free, so she doesn't compete for a deployment slot. It would be more appropriate to compare Wolt to Lugh, who does take a deployment slot. The point is to compare their performances to show that Wolt is completely redundant for Chapter 6. But thank you for informing me that Dorthy is free in that chapter, Captain Obvious. It's not often that we have a detective of your incredible perception among us. Is there anything else you can teach us, O wise and noble Anouleth? Edited June 10, 2011 by Life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 (edited) And what is everyone else supposed to do chapter 5? Let Marcus kill more enemies that I could have let other lower leveled units with real growth rates take advantage of in preparation for chapter 7? If we're going to argue that Walt taking a few kills here and there earlygame is somehow detrimental to the team even though in fact his ability to not take a counter on the player phase is undeniably useful in its safety, unless I missed something, Marcus is definitely taking a good number of kills with that strategy. I'm not seeing the consistency here. We obviously want to not get assraped by chapter 7, and Walt having a bigger level lead than just 2 levels isn't unreasonable, at which point he is preferable to Sue both in terms of accuracy and durability factoring the Marcus support. You're completely missing the point. It's OK for Marcus to take kills because he speeds up the chapter in exchange for making our growth units slightly weaker. It's not OK for Wolt to take kills because he doesn't speed up the chapter and still makes our growth units slightly weaker. You don't lose any EXP that you would have obtained in the same span of time, anyway. Drop Marcus on the fort while the rest of the units go around the long way and take whatever kills they can get. By the time Marcus has cleaned up and you're ready to seize, the rest of the group might not even have made it all the way around yet. (Also I'm sure there's a faster strategy than that, but I haven't found it yet =/) Edited June 10, 2011 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted June 10, 2011 Author Share Posted June 10, 2011 To add onto it, the EXP isn't wasted on Marcus since he does have a rocky time doubling some of the faster Fighters in the Western Isles. The EXP does goods for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janissary Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Wolt is an archer... I just wanted to make sure we're talking about the same Walt here. Why are we letting an archer do anything but bring enemies into kill range for real units? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 The point is to compare their performances to show that Wolt is completely redundant for Chapter 6. But thank you for informing me that Dorthy is free in that chapter, Captain Obvious. It's not often that we have a detective of your incredible perception among us. Is there anything else you can teach us, O wise and noble Anouleth? You are the one missing the point, Life. It does not matter whether Dorothy is indeed better than Wolt in Chapter 6. I was angling that Wolt is so bad in Chapter 6 that he is not even worth deploying (thus rendering his ability to support Marcus moot). Dorothy is immaterial to that argument. In fact, I am not really sure what the point in comparing Dorothy to Wolt in Chapter 6 is. It certainly doesn't make Wolt redundant, as you claim, any more than Lance makes Alan redundant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 (edited) You are the one missing the point, Life. It does not matter whether Dorothy is indeed better than Wolt in Chapter 6. I was angling that Wolt is so bad in Chapter 6 that he is not even worth deploying (thus rendering his ability to support Marcus moot). Dorothy is immaterial to that argument. In fact, I am not really sure what the point in comparing Dorothy to Wolt in Chapter 6 is. It certainly doesn't make Wolt redundant, as you claim, any more than Lance makes Alan redundant. Unless I'm mistaken, Life's point was that since base Dorothy is comparable to a trained Wolt, there's no point training Wolt in chapters 1-5. Or rather, he was simply trying to show how bad Wolt is. Edited June 10, 2011 by Radiant Dragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Unless I'm mistaken, Life's point was that since base Dorothy is comparable to a trained Wolt, there's no point training Wolt in chapters 1-5. Or rather, he was simply trying to show how bad Wolt is. Life said: The point is to compare their performances to show that Wolt is completely redundant for Chapter 6. Proving that Dorothy is better than Wolt does not make Wolt completely redundant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 (edited) Proving that Dorothy is better than Wolt does not make Wolt completely redundant. Normally, I would agree that one unit of a class does not make another unit of the same class redundant, but when they're both bad Archers and we had to feed kills to Wolt to even get him that far, I would argue that Dorothy does make Wolt redundant. Edited June 10, 2011 by Radiant Dragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Unless I'm mistaken, Life's point was that since base Dorothy is comparable to a trained Wolt, there's no point training Wolt in chapters 1-5. This. Hence, Wolt is made redundant in Chapter 6 (and onwards) by Dorthy and isn't worth stuff like kills or a Marcus support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 It is not an 'either or'. Dorothy does not disappear from the map if we deploy Wolt. It is not like we cannot deploy both Wolt and Dorothy alongside each other. Dorothy is completely irrelevant to Ch. 5 Wolt because there is nothing stopping you from using both of them. I might as well suggest that because we get Zealot in Chapter 7, there is no point in deploying Marcus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 It is not an 'either or'. Dorothy does not disappear from the map if we deploy Wolt. It is not like we cannot deploy both Wolt and Dorothy alongside each other. Dorothy is completely irrelevant to Ch. 5 Wolt because there is nothing stopping you from using both of them. I might as well suggest that because we get Zealot in Chapter 7, there is no point in deploying Marcus. On paper, this is all well and good. In practice, we have no reason to deploy two cruddy Archers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 On paper, this is all well and good. In practice, we have no reason to deploy two cruddy Archers. Yet Dorothy is forced, so we don't have a lot of choice, now do we? And yes, there's no reason to deploy Wolt, but that's because Lugh/Alan/Lance/Marcus/Lot/Dieck/Ellen/Wade/Chad are more useful. Dorothy has nothing to do with it. If, in theory, Dorothy did not exist, we would still not deploy Wolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 I think the point was: Dorothy is crappy Wolt trained and supported is about the same as Dorothy Thus Wolt is garbage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 (edited) Yet Dorothy is forced, so we don't have a lot of choice, now do we? And yes, there's no reason to deploy Wolt, but that's because Lugh/Alan/Lance/Marcus/Lot/Dieck/Ellen/Wade/Chad are more useful. Dorothy has nothing to do with it. If, in theory, Dorothy did not exist, we would still not deploy Wolt. We all know that you understand my point so stop arguing. Now. Edited June 10, 2011 by Life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Dorothy is a bad unit who requires a lot of resources to be worth fielding, just like Wolt. Due to this, one's use precludes the use of the other. The fact that they're both Archers isn't really relevant other than Bow lock contributing to them being crappy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Why is Dayan below Bors? First off, Bors is garbage in his initial maps. He has tremendous gaining levels in his intial chapter due to terrible hit rates and his constantly being doubled. If he's doubled, he's 2RKO'd at higher hit rates than the rest of your team which is just sad. Chapter 2 is a high move chapter with some fighters still around, so Bors will have a lot of trouble here. Chapter 3, now there's a chance for him to be useful. He can just visit Lugh's house or attack a few soldiers and he's not bad here. Chapter 4 though, let's assume he's at 4/0: 4/0 Bors w/Iron Lance: 22 HP, 14 Atk (15 if he proc'd the very likely strength at this level), 78 Hit (likely 80 if again, he proc'd the very likely skill), 4 AS, 13 avoid, 12 Def. 3/0 Cav w/Iron Lance: 15-17 Atk, 83-86 Hit, 3 Crit, 28-30 Hp, 7-8 Def, 1-2 Res, 19-23 Avo, 8-9 AS, 3-5 CEV. He 4RKO's the weakest varieties at 59% hit (66.79% true) and 5RKO's the toughest varieties. Defensively, he's 4RKO'd by the weakest varieties which is nice, but the stronger varieties can pull a 3RKO on him. This doesn't seem too bad and his attack isn't really worse than anyone else's (his hit rates are a different story though). The level 5 one does pull a 2RKO on him though. Nomads and archers double him and 4RKO him, though Bors hits them 56-58% of the time (61-65% true). So Chapter 4's a good chapter for him and he might gain a level. However, his Chapter 5 is complete garbage, facing WTD all over the place, he's 2RKO'd and hits for piss poor damage and at terrible hit rates along with garbage move. Chapter 6, he might be deployed since he can fight soldiers decently but his usefulness ends there. Chapter 7 requires units who can hit somewhat reliably with acceptable move and decent combat or can help KO wyverns and armors. In short, it requires everything Bors isn't. Chapter 8 he needs to be Rescue dropped for his fail ass to even reach enemies and from the Isles on, it's axe country, so he's not gaining any levels. Compare that to Dayan who can whip out a bow for wyvern slaying and can use Killing Edges and has good speed right off the bat. I'd say that is far more useful than what Bors is doing his entire career. Namely, sucking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 (edited) I honestly think Bors should move under Wolt. I've found Wolt far more useful earlygame than Bors - it's a little difficult to explain why without getting very specific, but having 2 range does have its benefits in a few spots like in chapter 2 near the fort by the starting position (Wolt makes it easier to break through) and in chapter 3 at a chokepoint in the long corridor where enemy soldiers tend to end their turn. Edited June 12, 2011 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janissary Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 I honestly think Bors should move under Wolt. I've found Wolt far more useful earlygame than Bors - it's a little difficult to explain why without getting very specific, but having 2 range does have its benefits in a few spots like in chapter 2 near the fort by the starting position (Wolt makes it easier to break through) and in chapter 3 at a chokepoint in the long corridor where enemy soldiers tend to end their turn. I completely agree. Wolt has unique talents in that he can 2 range while Bors can't. Wolt can also stay near Roy and provide weakening strikes so Roy doesn't lag behind. Bors and his 4 move can't really do that for longer than a turn or two if you are playing efficiently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 (edited) About Wolt...if anyone keeps trying to post that Wolt can get a C with Marcus, I will murder them. Well...not really. But hopefully people won't do that. Edited June 12, 2011 by Roro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 (edited) About Wolt...if anyone keeps trying to post that Wolt can get a C with Marcus, I will murder them. Well...not really. But hopefully people won't do that. As to that... That's been A2ZOMG supporting that. On a relevant note, why is Sue in low tier on the Ilia tier list (and below Bors and Barth, while I'm at it)? Edited June 12, 2011 by Metal King Slime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 As to that... That's been A2ZOMG supporting that. On a relevant note, why is Sue in low tier on the Ilia tier list (and below Bors and Barth, while I'm at it)? I was wondering that too. Sue's start is a little shaky, but she has a mount, doesn't take counters most of the time, gets to doubling reliably pretty quickly and is rather accurate. That has to be better than whatever Barth can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 I think it might be because you need to limit Sue's exp gain to go to Ilia in the first place, while you don't with the other two. That said, Sue should definitely go above Bors since he has trouble gaining exp in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toothache Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 (edited) I guess if you're determined not to go to Sacae but still want to raise Sue to levels where she can contribute better, you could level both Tate and Thany as well. This probably means not using Shin very much though, which is a shame because he's great. This forcing of characters is a negative for Sue, so I guess her position is almost probably deserved. I do agree she should at least be above Bors, for the same reasons as Wolt. Edited June 12, 2011 by Toothache Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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