FE6 HM Tier List

[Anouleth]

If you play the game and you use Sue and you go to Ilia, is she good? That is the question, not 'how does Sue help/detract from us going to Ilia'.

[Janissary]

I guess if you're determined not to go to Sacae but still want to raise Sue to levels where she can contribute better, you could level both Tate and Thany as well. This probably means not using Shin very much though, which is a shame because he's great. This forcing of characters is a negative for Sue, so I guess her position is almost probably deserved. I do agree she should at least be above Bors, for the same reasons as Wolt.

I think you pretty much hit the point. In order to use Sue, you can't use Shin (well, not effectively at least) if you want to go to Ilia. Even using Shin makes it hard to go to Ilia (since he's so awesome and rapes all kinds of expirience). Sue loses out because she isn't Shin and if you can only use one of them, why would you pick her?

[Radiant Dragon]

If you play the game and you use Sue and you go to Ilia, is she good? That is the question, not 'how does Sue help/detract from us going to Ilia'.

Exactly. I'm not so sure the list even needs a Sacae/Ilia split.

[dondon151]

The route split is 5 chapters, and a lot of characters do differently depending on the two environments. Bow-locked units do a lot better in Sacae in general.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

To completely change the subject,

Percival < Marcus

The case for this is pretty simple; conservatively assuming we drop Marcus after 12, and since Percy can't really do anything in 15 and Final isn't really a chapter, Marcus has 13 chapters of use to Percy's 12.

Comparing how much they contribute to the team, Marcus starts out far and away the best character on the team, only loses that title by a slim margin to Zealot after 6 chapters, and at the end of his run, still has fairly unique 8 mov, WTC and ranks, and decent combat to his credit (-/9 Marcus is comparable to 17 Allen). On the other hand, while Percy has strong stats, he is pretty much always overshadowed by Miledy and worse offensively than Rutger and Shin, especially in Sacae where his 2-range sucks. Also, warpskip exists for chapters like 16 or 21x, which further undermines his raw advantages.

Essentially, it boils down to Marcus being a lot better respective to other units in early game than Percival is to those in late game.

[Dark Sage]

Lugh in turn does better in Ilia. Why? Well he has less competition in for a wing if he goes to Ilia since Miledy/Percival don't need one to rock and roll on the enemies.

For example, if we early promote Lugh at 16/1 and give him a wing by chapter 13, he can get the following stats:

HP 27, Mag 14, Skl 14, Spd 16, Luk 9, Def 7, Res 11.

Now if we give him B Ellen and Elfire:

HP 27, 24 atk, 122 hit, 17 crit, 16 AS, 46 evade, Def 7, Res 11.

It is not unlikely for him to gain this many levels, as he has Chapters 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 8x, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 12x to gain levels. In other words, he has 11 maps to gain 15 levels, or an average of 1.3 levels a chapter.

Against Chapter 13 enemies:

Steel/Jav cavs: 37 HP, 22 atk (18 with a javelin), 78 hit, 5 crit, 8 AS (10 with a javelin), 23 avoid, 9 defense, 2 resistance.

Here, he's 2RKO'd....if the enemy is attacking him with steel. Otherwise, he's 3RKO'd. Enemies have 32% hit on him, 20% true. Lugh however, 1RKO's these suckers. The Killer Lance cav does have a 55% (59% true) chance of hitting him and they 2HKO him while having a 26% chance of critting him, so he's not so good against them. He still ORKO's him at 90% hit rate displayed (98% true). Steel sword cavs hit him 51% displayed (52% true) but they 3RKO him while he still ORKO's them in return. The axereaver cavs have the same story as the killer lance cavs, and the Killing Edge cav 2RKO's him 64% displayed (74% true) and do indeed crit him at the same rate as the killer lance cavs, while Lugh still ORKO's them in return.

Now for the biggies, the paladins:

--/3 Paladin: HP 44-46, 28-30 atk, 93-98 hit, 6-7 crit, 12-14 defense, 7-8 res, 31 avoid, 7-8 CEV, 12 AS

These pallies have a 47-52% chance of hitting him (44-52% true) and 2RKO him. Lugh however, doubles them and 4HK0's him (2RKO) with a 9-10% chance of critting on each blow. Not bad at all if I do say so myself. Hell, he can even ORKO the boss with Aircalibur, though being 2HKO'd and having 3% crit on him displayed may not be the best thing for him.

Lugh's also great on the desert for having full move and for picking off the wyverns and a 16/2 Lugh can survive two shots of Bolting in 14x if he's Barriered or uses a Pure Water. His offense is pretty solid forever, and he can get some nice evade as he levels up.

Of course the problem is of course, whether or not he could get this wing. Well you can always postpone his promotion to 14, when you get the second wing and he'll do alright still. Or you can postpone Dieck getting the wing and just early promote him (he still rapes hard), but that might not be to your liking.

This is of course, only on the Ilia list. On the Sacae list, none of this flies, since he know has too much competition. If you don't want him always using Elfire, he can take Thunder for extra crit and can still deal very high amounts of damage.

I think due do this, in the Ilia tier, Lugh can possibly stay in Upper Mid below Cecilia but above Niime due to the opportunity cost of the wing.

@Marcus>Percival: I don't actually mind Marcus going to Top. In fact, I advocate it (for similar reasons that Sothe is top tier in RD), but I'm not sure if he's better than Percival.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Roro

[dondon151]

I think it makes more sense to move Percival down than to move Marcus up. Percival also doesn't do that poorly in Sacae - he doubles a lot of nomads with a Speedwings, which is more than what most other characters can say.

I also wouldn't say Percival's offense is worse than Rutger's. Rutger's str is pretty mediocre and he really needs those crits in order to make things happen.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I'm leaning Percival down since he's not in the same league as Miledy.

The deal with most of the enemies in the game is that you either need ridiculous offense or crits to ORKO, and IIRC, Percy comes up short for the first. For example, without A Axes, he can't ORKO any of the level 20 wyverns in 21 with expected 36 atk with Silver Lance against the weakest 44 hp/15 def ones.

[dondon151]

Neither can anyone else, for that matter. Lance and Alan are definitely not going to have A axes. Percival might have a shot at it if the player goes to Ilia.

Rutger needs to double crit in order to ORKO without using a Wyrmslayer or divine weapon.

Edited June 13, 2011 by dondon151

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Neither can anyone else, for that matter. Lance and Alan are definitely not going to have A axes. Percival might have a shot at it if the player goes to Ilia.

Rutger needs to double crit in order to ORKO without using a Wyrmslayer or divine weapon.

Yeah, but the point is that he doesn't set himself apart from others.

[Dark Sage]

Comparing to the best characters of the game sets him apart from most of the others just fine!

[dondon151]

Yeah, but the point is that he doesn't set himself apart from others.

Of course he does; you said so yourself. 38 atk after WTA with Silver Axe is 1 more atk than what is necessary to ORKO the WKs you mentioned in your post. Percival likes using Javelins in Sacae for +5 hit, but Hand Axes are better (or at least, more usable) in Ilia - he can easily make the 40 or so rounds of combat that he needs for A axes.

You can't really send Rutger into a pile of enemies because he can't counter at 2 range. If you want to ORKO tough enemies, Rutger generally has to crit twice if he's using a Killing Edge, whereas Percival generally only needs to crit once in 2 attacks.

[Anouleth]

Comparing to the best characters of the game sets him apart from most of the others just fine!

Of course we are going to compare Percival to the best units in the game. If he wants to be in Top Tier, he better be able to compare to them. This isn't like comparing Noah to Lance, or some other ridiculously rigged comparison that tells us nothing.

It's impossible to reasonably compare Marcus to the units directly below him; Clarine, Lalum, Elphin. Comparing him to Marcus is a lot more reasonable. And Percival isn't so obviously superior that he deserves to be a tier up. Marcus has his 10-12 chapters of being awesome. Percival has the same number of awesome chapters, or less. Whereas when you compare Percival to someone like Miledy, who has flight, who has availability, who has arguably better stats, perhaps the tier gap should be between Miledy and Percival rather than Percival and Marcus.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Anouleth

[Dark Sage]

I'd rather have Marcus move to the bottom of top tier due to just how much time and effort he saves you through Chapters 1-8 and his still being somewhat awesome from 9-12x personally.

[Anouleth]

Makes sense. Probably best to have a tier gap between Marcus and Gonzales.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Of course he does; you said so yourself. 38 atk after WTA with Silver Axe is 1 more atk than what is necessary to ORKO the WKs you mentioned in your post. Percival likes using Javelins in Sacae for +5 hit, but Hand Axes are better (or at least, more usable) in Ilia - he can easily make the 40 or so rounds of combat that he needs for A axes.

You can't really send Rutger into a pile of enemies because he can't counter at 2 range. If you want to ORKO tough enemies, Rutger generally has to crit twice if he's using a Killing Edge, whereas Percival generally only needs to crit once in 2 attacks.

add "to the degree Marcus does." We appear to be in agreement on that here, so not much need to continue this debate.

EDIT: If Marcus were to go to top, would it still make sense for Percival to drop to high? Actually that doesn't sound too far-fetched.

Edited June 13, 2011 by WeaponsofMassConstruction

[Anouleth]

add "to the degree Marcus does." We appear to be in agreement on that here, so not much need to continue this debate.

EDIT: If Marcus were to go to top, would it still make sense for Percival to drop to high? Actually that doesn't sound too far-fetched.

I can't really see Percival being adjacent to Gonzales, but perhaps that's more of a problem with Gonzales than Percival.

[dondon151]

I think that once you go below Percival, you're encountering units who generally aren't consistently good throughout the game.

[Colonel M]

K.

I also moved Juno to Top of Low for now. Continue discussing Percival and Lugh. Though the only thing I want to remind people with is, as far as Sacae goes, only Miledy and Rutger to an extent really trump him there. He's still taking about 5 damage tops from the Nomads and a Dragonshield from Chapter 10 can seal him from taking extreme damage to a point, though saving it for 6 chapters is kind of asking for a lot perhaps. I mean, let's look:

- Alan needs to be 20/2 to not be doubled, and he's still inferior to Percival not only offensively, but defensively. Allan has -10 HP and -2 Def (-1 with A Lance).

- Lance needs to be 20/6 without a Speedwing to double what Percival doubles, and let's not forget he has 16.6 Str to Percival's 19.75.

And I'm not really sure how possible it is for them to be at that level for example. *Shrugs*.

[Anouleth]

I also moved Juno to Top of Low for now. Continue discussing Percival and Lugh. Though the only thing I want to remind people with is, as far as Sacae goes, only Miledy and Rutger to an extent really trump him there. He's still taking about 5 damage tops from the Nomads and a Dragonshield from Chapter 10 can seal him from taking extreme damage to a point, though saving it for 6 chapters is kind of asking for a lot perhaps. I mean, let's look:

- Alan needs to be 20/2 to not be doubled, and he's still inferior to Percival not only offensively, but defensively. Allan has -10 HP and -2 Def (-1 with A Lance).

- Lance needs to be 20/6 without a Speedwing to double what Percival doubles, and let's not forget he has 16.6 Str to Percival's 19.75.

And I'm not really sure how possible it is for them to be at that level for example. *Shrugs*.

I think that Shin is probably better as well, but it's up for debate. I have no problem with Percival remaining in top, for similar reasons to what dondon said.

It's reasonable for Alan to be 20/2. Dunno about Lance - it depends on how many units you use and how fast you go, but it's not outside consideration when you consider that Lance is quite a good unit.

[Dark Sage]

Hmmm.....So I wonder if there's any opposition for Dayan for moving out of Low. The wyvern killing utility and the access to Killing Edge's plus his horse and speed I think deserves to be over the Low tier scrubs.

Not sure if Ray deserves to be a tier over Lilina. I guess his big thing is that Lilina needs a lot of training just to reach his level of performance, but Ray's performance is kind of....ehhhhhh. See he has 8 AS unpromoted with Flux at Base and he doesn't really grow too much speed and he's weighed down by his weapons. Both suck in Sacae, but Lilina does have Aircalibur in Ilia and really high magic to back it up, so she could be fine there. In Bern, she can continue on her Aircalibur utility.

I think Ray vs Lilina really comes down to Nosferatu vs Aircalibur and how much you would weigh Lilina's training.

Wonder how much use Ray gets from an Angelic Robe. More HP for some Nosferatu tanking is always good.

[Reikken]

I don't see why Dayan is so low anyway. Just about the only thing he doesn't have is massive loads of str. 20 speed is great. He has a great weapon type (bows) and a melee weapon to go with it to complement its main weakness. He has tons of mobility, and even passable defenses when you take note of that 12 res: He can often survive two hits from a sage, and those lategame sages are ridiculous. No one who's not Fa or a magic user can say that until you get to upper mid tier. He can counterattack them adeptly too.

[dondon151]

He has a great weapon type (bows) and a melee weapon to go with it to complement its main weakness.

Swords and bows have the same weakness - none of them (except Light Brand) counter both 1 and 2 range enemies.

[Anouleth]

He can counterattack them adeptly too.

With what? A Light Brand?

[grandjackal]

Hmmm.....So I wonder if there's any opposition for Dayan for moving out of Low. The wyvern killing utility and the access to Killing Edge's plus his horse and speed I think deserves to be over the Low tier scrubs.

To combine with what Reikken said, I just wish to point out that Dayan is not really all that fantastic. Sure he can kill wyverns easily, but only one at a time. One forgets the myriad of other problems, such as the fact that on enemy phase, all he has are swords to fight off huge swarms of defensive tough wyverns with his lolC rank and measily attack.

I would also like to note he's not that good at anything else. Let's go to chapter 22, where his main utility would be in using Miugre to double Heroes, of whom are quite dangerous with their 20 AS and brave weapons, so we would love to take as few counters from them as possible. Dayan only has 29 might with a 15 might weapon, and only does 12 damage a shot, reducing even he lowest HPd hero to...30 HP. That's still a huge difference I have to make up.

Only real advantage I see Dayan having is that for the final chapter, he's a free mounted bow user for Miugre dragonslaying. But then again, I'm not totally sure that 49 might is cutting it.

Not sure if Ray deserves to be a tier over Lilina. I guess his big thing is that Lilina needs a lot of training just to reach his level of performance, but Ray's performance is kind of....ehhhhhh. See he has 8 AS unpromoted with Flux at Base and he doesn't really grow too much speed and he's weighed down by his weapons. Both suck in Sacae, but Lilina does have Aircalibur in Ilia and really high magic to back it up, so she could be fine there. In Bern, she can continue on her Aircalibur utility.

I think Ray vs Lilina really comes down to Nosferatu vs Aircalibur and how much you would weigh Lilina's training.

Wonder how much use Ray gets from an Angelic Robe. More HP for some Nosferatu tanking is always good.

Ray's a tier above her? Didn't I show like ages ago that those two are about as close as you can get them?