FE6 HM Tier List

[dondon151]

Let's go to chapter 22, where his main utility would be in using Miugre to double Heroes,

To be honest, it's even questionable if one can get Dayan to S bows in that time frame. If he always doubles and KOs an enemy, it takes 17 rounds of combat to reach S bows.

[grandjackal]

To be honest, it's even questionable if one can get Dayan to S bows in that time frame. If he always doubles and KOs an enemy, it takes 17 rounds of combat to reach S bows.

Oh right of course, how silly of me. The man doesn't even start with S rank. I would highly doubt he's ever gonna get those 17 kills for it either in the short timespan he has.

Looking at stats then, he can only double the slowest of 16 AS, though granted he can do this with a Brave Bow, which may very well be broken by now. It would combine to be 24 might, which compared to the 17 Def of the heroes would total to be...28 damage. Not that much better.

Oh weight, the Brave Bow has a cumbersome 12 weight. He wouldn't double with it anyways. Which case he's reduced to Silver and using it for only 20 damage.

I don't think Dayan has much use.

[-Cynthia-]

It's not like being unable to KO the heroes somehow qualifies Dayan as useless. ORKOing wyverns is pretty useful because...Dayan's chapters are full of wyvern riders. Well Mamkutes for the last chapter, but Dayan can have the rank for Miurgre by then, so he might be worth a deployment slot. Unless you trained Shin of course.

Not like I should think Dayan should rise to Niime level or anything, but I still think he's better than Douglas. What can Douglas do again?

[dondon151]

Yeah, I think GJ is really jumping the gun by claiming that Dayan is useless because he doesn't do extraordinarily well against the toughest enemy type in chapter 22.

[grandjackal]

It's not like being unable to KO the heroes somehow qualifies Dayan as useless.

Doing insignificant chip when that's your job, however, does.

ORKOing wyverns is pretty useful because...Dayan's chapters are full of wyvern riders.

So he kills one, and then gets swarmed. Great help that's been. See, there's this misconception that wyverns in this chapter are hard to kill. Wyvern Lords are hard to kill, but not their little nooblet minions. Even considering, it's hardly a role that Dayan could be considered unique in.

Well Mamkutes for the last chapter, but Dayan can have the rank for Miurgre by then, so he might be worth a deployment slot. Unless you trained Shin of course.

This is a chapter where if you're going against these dragons, I would expect you to ORKO because we got a lot of ground to cover, and only so much space to do it in because chapter 24 is the most narrow map in existence. I do not think 49 might does the job.

Not like I should think Dayan should rise to Niime level or anything, but I still think he's better than Douglas. What can Douglas do again?

Be an invincible thing we stuff Roy into that Brave Lances things in Sacae?

[dondon151]

This is a chapter where if you're going against these dragons, I would expect you to ORKO because we got a lot of ground to cover, and only so much space to do it in because chapter 24 is the most narrow map in existence. I do not think 49 might does the job.

Where did you get 49 MT from? Murgleis has 48 MT before factoring in str. 56 atk 2HKOs chapter 24 mamkutes if they're not on thrones. You need 62 atk if they're on thrones. 14 base str is just enough to 2HKO all of them in this map (except for Yahn; you need a massive 78 atk to do that). A unit needs Durandal and at least 22 str or Armads and at least 24 str to pull that off.

Be an invincible thing we stuff Roy into that Brave Lances things in Sacae?

Sorry, but Douglas is a piece of trash. He can't hit for beans and he can't even 2HKO wyvern riders with a Brave Axe.

Edited June 22, 2011 by dondon151

[Dark Sage]

About Dayan's lack of enemy phase....couldn't we just trade out his weapon for something like a Killing Edge or Lancereaver?

[grandjackal]

Where did you get 49 MT from? Murgleis has 48 MT before factoring in str. 56 atk 2HKOs chapter 24 mamkutes if they're not on thrones. You need 62 atk if they're on thrones. 14 base str is just enough to 2HKO all of them in this map (except for Yahn; you need a massive 78 atk to do that). A unit needs Durandal and at least 22 str or Armads and at least 24 str to pull that off.

Well, in fairness, the stats did not have the dragon stats for chapter 24. That, or it wasn't in the original post, so I probably didn't think to just scroll down.

...I also misread 16 as 15...and totally math failed.

[Anouleth]

About Dayan's lack of enemy phase....couldn't we just trade out his weapon for something like a Killing Edge or Lancereaver?

Many Wyvern Riders carry Javelins, and Killing Edge off Dayan's 14 strength is not really going to kill anything. Thing is, Wyvern Riders come in fat clumps. What you really want is someone durable and strong that can just kill them on enemy phase. That's not to say that Dayan's player phase is useless, since he can still kill Wyvern Lords (which are basically impossible to ORKO at 1-range without a Divine Weapon), but his enemy phase is kind of useless. Keep in mind that the person right above Dayan is Zeiss. A 12/4 Zeiss with a Speedwing and a Killer Lance ORKOes Wyvern Riders without needing to crit.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Anouleth

[Reikken]

Swords and bows have the same weakness - none of them (except Light Brand) counter both 1 and 2 range enemies.

Inability to counter melee is the bow's main weakness. Being unable to counter both simultaneously in every situation is a much smaller issue than being unable to counter melee. Especially when javelins suck balls. Yeah, counter that wyvern rider with a javelin. Fat lot of good that's going to do you. Even with WTA, Percival (w/o supports) is only getting 70 hit on an average wyvern rider with a hand axe equipped, and he does like double 14s. and 11s to the wyvern lords. As opposed to using silver and having 80 hit for double 22s / 19s. Hit half as many guys but do twice as much to each of them. Or just use a killer axe and have a ~50% chance to kill each of the 2/4 riders, and a chance to possibly even kill the wyvern lord depending on its hp/def. Go to someone with less str, and the relative damage gap by dropping from silver/killer to javelin increases greatly. Even if Dayan did have a 1-2 range weapon, it wouldn't be very useful. PLUS to actually get the 1-2 range enemy to attack the 1-2 range player unit, you usually have to have every unit in the enemy's range equipped with a 1-2 range weapon. That's usually incredibly impractical.

@countering sages: He obviously equips a bow and stands at the edge of the sage's range. And before you make any kind of complaint: Having to stand at the edge instead of like 3 tiles into the range is a trivial hindrance for a man with 11 range. 10 range with full power. (as opposed to Dieck's 8 range, 7 with full power. Alan 10, 9 with full)

To combine with what Reikken said, I just wish to point out that Dayan is not really all that fantastic.

Of course he's not fantastic. You do realize we're comparing him to low tier, here, right?. I'm just saying he's better than the likes of Barth, Hugh, Zeiss, Douglass.

Yes, he kills things one at a time. That's bad, how? Barth kills things 0 at a time. Dayan can reliably one-round a freaking wyvern lord for you if you need him to. And no, he does not "get swarmed". He's not Rambo. He's working with a group. and he has a bow. and even a long bow sometimes. and 8 move. so he can usually attack from a convenient location. And speaking of that, you can often even position him to attack from a spot where he'll be standing next to where someone else will attack from and trade up a different weapon when they go to attack.

Dayan is "good" because

he needs 0 investment and can just join in an empty spot and actually be useful to pretty much any team.

Compared to, say, Douglas? Nothing useful about a low move high def guy with garbage for offense unless your team is full of squishies because you're using a bunch of low tiers and you need someone to soak hits.

Barth? comes out to slightly better than Douglas, but you have to use him all game to get him there, and he's never any better than what I described above.

Zeiss? He performs admirably if you feed him a ton of kills ASAP, but there's nothing useful about having to do that, and he is bad when he joins and doesn't have much time to be good (relative to other low tiers) to offset that.

etc

Edited June 22, 2011 by Reikken

[-Cynthia-]

Many Wyvern Riders carry Javelins, and Killing Edge off Dayan's 14 strength is not really going to kill anything. Thing is, Wyvern Riders come in fat clumps. What you really want is someone durable and strong that can just kill them on enemy phase. That's not to say that Dayan's player phase is useless, since he can still kill Wyvern Lords (which are basically impossible to ORKO at 1-range without a Divine Weapon), but his enemy phase is kind of useless. Keep in mind that the person right above Dayan is Zeiss. A 12/4 Zeiss with a Speedwing and a Killer Lance ORKOes Wyvern Riders without needing to crit.

Not sure if Dayan's better than Zeiss, but that might be an issue of Zeiss being too low rather than anything else. What puts Douglas above Zeiss, let alone a tier above? More durability, no bow weakness and weapon ranks vs. 3 move, flight, and a Spd stat that can actually double things? Seems easy to me.

Hugh is weird because he might be better as a unit but he's very pricy. Barth is just terrible. Low Mov, bad Hit, can't double, can't reasonably promote until C16 and even then we just get another Douglas really.

[Reikken]

Oh, I missed this bit.

Keep in mind that the person right above Dayan is Zeiss. A 12/4 Zeiss with a Speedwing and a Killer Lance ORKOes Wyvern Riders without needing to crit.

Err, what? Is this a normal mode list? My bad. What kinds of stats do wyvern riders have?

Edited June 22, 2011 by Reikken

[Anouleth]

Oh, I missed this bit.

Err, what? Is this a normal mode list? My bad. What kinds of stats do wyvern riders have?

I got my enemy stats from this topic:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=23309

A level 12/4 Zeiss has 24 Strength and 16 Speed on average. Giving him a Speedwing increases this to 18 speed, allowing him to double all Wyvern Riders except for the ones with Killer Lances. His 34 ATK with a Killer Lance 3HKOes, so I made a mistake.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Oh, I missed this bit.

Err, what? Is this a normal mode list? My bad. What kinds of stats do wyvern riders have?

Stickied FE6 HM enemy stats.

Ninjas everywhere.

Edited June 22, 2011 by WeaponsofMassConstruction

[Reikken]

Oh I know all about hard mode stats. I was asking about NM stats. But since this apparently is indeed a HM list, then that's not necessary.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Reikken

[dondon151]

Well, in fairness, the stats did not have the dragon stats for chapter 24. That, or it wasn't in the original post, so I probably didn't think to just scroll down.

I checked on WoD.

Fat lot of good that's going to do you. Even with WTA, Percival (w/o supports) is only getting 70 hit on an average wyvern rider with a hand axe equipped, and he does like double 14s. and 11s to the wyvern lords. As opposed to using silver and having 80 hit for double 22s / 19s. Hit half as many guys but do twice as much to each of them.

That last bit is arguably inferior to hitting every enemy for a bit of damage. If the rest of the team is strong enough to KO enemies at 20 HP but not strong enough to KO enemies at full HP, then it's better to counter every enemy for a bit of damage than to counter 3 of 5 enemies or something for a large amount of damage. In this particular case where you have fliers as enemies, the player may very well have Klein or Dayan waiting in the wings to OHKO or ORKO that weakened wyvern lord and everyone else feasts on the rest while Percival moves on.

Your scenario also conveniently uses some of the most physically durable enemies in existence. Dayan would really like 1-2 range against sages and druids, the latter particularly because some of them have Nosferatu and can only be reliably KO'd by someone on player phase with a brave weapon and a lot of str.

PLUS to actually get the 1-2 range enemy to attack the 1-2 range player unit, you usually have to have every unit in the enemy's range equipped with a 1-2 range weapon. That's usually incredibly impractical.

On the contrary, this is a simple task if Percival is the only unit in the enemy's range. It's really easy to do if you just have Lalum dance Percival on his first turn or something, and it's also more efficient than moving your entire army along at the same pace.

And really, how is this more impractical than your scenario of Dayan countering a sage, which necessitates him being the only unit in range and him being on the very edge of the enemy's range?

Back to the actual argument at hand, Zeiss and Dayan are each a tier too low and the armors in lower mid need to scoot their way down.

Edited June 22, 2011 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

Back to the actual argument at hand, Zeiss and Dayan are each a tier too low

I can agree with Zeiss, but why Dayan? Dayan seems like he's the definition of Low tier.

and the armors in lower mid need to scoot their way down.

Must they? T.T

[dondon151]

I can agree with Zeiss, but why Dayan? Dayan seems like he's the definition of Low tier.

Actually, now that I think about it, considering his availability, low tier is probably appropriate for Dayan.

[-Cynthia-]

Actually, now that I think about it, considering his availability, low tier is probably appropriate for Dayan.

Hmm not sure I agree with this, since there are several higher tiered characters with only a bit more/less availability. Yodel has a bit less availability than Dayan for example, but is currently two tiers up on him. You could argue Warp staff utility on Yodel, but Niime does that job slightly better at base anyway, so he ends up being a filler staffbot. That's probably better than Dayan's filler wyvern sniping, not two tiers better.

[Reikken]

I can agree with Zeiss, but why Dayan? Dayan seems like he's the definition of Low tier.

because Douglas and Barth are above low tier.

ie low tier in this game is lower than Dayan

[Radiant Dragon]

Actually, now that I think about it, considering his availability, low tier is probably appropriate for Dayan.

He should be above Barth and Douglas, at the very least.

[Reikken]

Moving them down is also an appropriate solution, however.

Also, I don't believe Zeiss is too low. He's really really bad in Sacae. Don't forget that.

Edited June 23, 2011 by Reikken

[grandjackal]

Hmm not sure I agree with this, since there are several higher tiered characters with only a bit more/less availability. Yodel has a bit less availability than Dayan for example, but is currently two tiers up on him. You could argue Warp staff utility on Yodel, but Niime does that job slightly better at base anyway, so he ends up being a filler staffbot. That's probably better than Dayan's filler wyvern sniping, not two tiers better.

Well, you picked a weird choice with Yodel, since the whole Staff utility thing is something that's automatically good. You say that we have Niime, but why warp one person on turn 1 when you can warp 2? It's that sort of skew that makes Yodel a weird choice.

A better choice is the likes of Geese, with the eternal question of "What the hell is he ever doing?".

Moving them down is also an appropriate solution, however.

I will not stand for this.

Also, I don't believe Zeiss is too low. He's really really bad in Sacae. Don't forget that

What of Ilia? You see there are two lists here...

Edited June 23, 2011 by Grandjackal

[Reikken]

What of Ilia? You see there are two lists here...

He's not in low tier on the Ilia list.

[Janissary]

Dayan can actually kill things and can rescue chain Roy. What exactly is Barth doing?

EDIT: Also, what is Juno doing below Barth? She can fly. He's Barth. That about settles it to me.

Edited June 23, 2011 by Janissary