Radiant Dragon Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) Dayan can actually kill things and can rescue chain Roy. What exactly is Barth doing? EDIT: Also, what is Juno doing below Barth? She can fly. He's Barth. That about settles it to me. This. I could see Barth below Wolt and Bors, since they contribute more in the early chapters than he ever can. Edited June 23, 2011 by Radiant Dragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janissary Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Considering this list is based on the order in which you should use units in order to efficiently complete the game, I'm wondering why Barth is above pretty much anyone but Wendy and Karel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Considering this list is based on the order in which you should use units in order to efficiently complete the game, I'm wondering why Barth is above pretty much anyone but Wendy and Karel. Well, he's more useful than Merlinus, Sophia, and Dorothy as well. Although I question the value of tiering Merlinus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janissary Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Well, he's more useful than Merlinus, Sophia, and Dorothy as well. Although I question the value of tiering Merlinus. Forgot about Sophia. She sucks. Merlinus is virtually impossible to tier. Dorothy I am up in the air about. At least she can 3x Wyverns. Definately still sucks though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I don't think its feasible to get Dorothy to a level where she'll be able to ORKO wyverns, even with Bow effectiveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janissary Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Not efficiently. That's why she sucks. But Barth can't be leveled to do anything no matter how we do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Not efficiently. That's why she sucks. But Barth can't be leveled to do anything no matter how we do it. He can tank effectively enough. Not that tanking is very useful, but moreso than Dorothy's horrible combat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janissary Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I'm just going to stop because it's pretty useless to debate futility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) He can tank effectively enough. Not that tanking is very useful, but moreso than Dorothy's horrible combat. But you really have to wonder how good is a tank who faces crit chances often... Edited June 23, 2011 by Metal King Slime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) But you really have to wonder how good is a tank who faces crit chances often... Good point. I had forgotten about that. How high are those chances, though? Because there are Goddess Icons after all. Edited June 23, 2011 by Radiant Dragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiley Jim Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) Good point. I had forgotten about that. How high are those chances, though? Because there are Goddess Icons after all. Base Barth has 2 luck. Most average enemies have 7-9 skill, which translates to 1-2 crit on Barth. Mercs can have up to 5 crit on him if they have 14 skill. Granted, mercenaries only do like 3*2 damage to him, assuming steel sword, so he'd easily survive two crits from them. Thunder mages can have up to 7 crit on the fucker, which is a lot considering Barth's res is complete ass. A goddess icon 'could' negate the crit from regular enemies, but people like Rutgar and Lot have their own crit evade issues. To be fair, Barth has a whole slew of other issues, including poor hit rates and getting doubled by everything under Tatooine's twin suns. And these issues never disappear either(lol25Skl/20spd/20luck growths). And his movement is really a problem as neither promoted mounted units nor promoted Thany can carry his fat ass around, and if he actually is promoted, he's fucked as only unpromoted Shin can carry him. You 'could' give him the boots, but that resource is wanted by other people(Miredy and Percival like having 10 move, and someone like Rutgar or Dieck could easily keep up with your mounted/flying dudes.) Edited June 23, 2011 by darkandroid125 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Because there are Goddess Icons after all. It's not passable to take a Goddess Icon in this game because you could make a 1:1 exchange for Boots in chapter 21. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 It's not passable to take a Goddess Icon in this game because you could make a 1:1 exchange for Boots in chapter 21. Right. I forget you can buy stat boosters in this game. Disregard that, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 A better choice is the likes of Geese, with the eternal question of "What the hell is he ever doing?". One might ask that same question for literally any character in Mid Tier or lower. Certainly, none of them will do much of anything in a optimal-deployment-maximum-efficiency scenario. But that is rather the point of Mid or Lower Mid tier, that while none of them are the best at what they do, they can still be part of an efficient playthrough and contribute a hell of a lot more than the likes of Walt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 One might ask that same question for literally any character in Mid Tier or lower. Certainly, none of them will do much of anything in a optimal-deployment-maximum-efficiency scenario. But that is rather the point of Mid or Lower Mid tier, that while none of them are the best at what they do, they can still be part of an efficient playthrough and contribute a hell of a lot more than the likes of Walt. Do inform me then, what "hell of a lot more" does an average leveled, 10 Str, 9 AS, 10 con axe user doing us? To give one perspective, chapter 13. One needs 12 AS just to double the steel wielding cavaliers. 9 base and 40% growth is not fantastic, especially if you're stuck wielding heavy weapons like axes with only 10 Con. 8 levels on average (not even factoring in actual probability) ust to double with iron. Thats a ridiculous amount of levels this guy needs to get in the span of basically 5 chapters, especially since one of them is particularly sparce (chapter 12). Even if we just gave him a straight 5 levels, he'd be doing a grand total of 12 damage to otherwise 38 HPd enemies unless he wielded a stronger Steel just to do 15 damage, which is still not even a 3RKO. He's also doing this with a fantastic base 88 hit with iron, which even factoring WTA only adds up to 73 displayed on the slowest, 66 on the fastest. You have a point of which I would agree with. Lower tiers can just end up being guys who aren't awful but are outclassed. However, I would argue that Geese is not someone who's merely outclassed, but is rightfully awful. Or at least his start is so bad that his finish isn't going to make up for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reikken Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) The only thing that helps Geese early on is that killer axes can be bought in chapter 11 instead of having to wait until the end of 13 like for the other killer weapons, so he can go ahead and start spamming those. He has a bad start for sure. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue though, as he is already in lower mid tier (ie trash). But he does actually become good after he gets some levels and/or supports in, or at least once he promotes for sure. Edited June 23, 2011 by Reikken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) Even if we just gave him a straight 5 levels, he'd be doing a grand total of 12 damage to otherwise 38 HPd enemies unless he wielded a stronger Steel just to do 15 damage, which is still not even a 3RKO. He's also doing this with a fantastic base 88 hit with iron, which even factoring WTA only adds up to 73 displayed on the slowest, 66 on the fastest. Slap on a Hero Crest after 5 levels and Geese has 12 AS with Killer Axe or Silver Axe. 30 atk 2HKOs the sturdiest of cavaliers, and Geese has that and then a little more with a Silver Axe. If he can't double, Killer Axe gives him about a 60% chance at a OHKO assuming he hits. Yeah, I suppose 5 levels is a little questionable, but then again, I managed to get 4 levels for Astohl in chapter 11 alone when going at a breakneck pace. To even use Geese, we're going into the realm of suboptimal deployment, but lower mid tiers are what they are. He's not completely unsalvageable, compared to, for example, the armors or the archers. Other guys in lower mid like Ward, OJ, and Lilina have the same kinds of problems (Ward moreso, but he has earlygame in his favor). Edited June 23, 2011 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) Do inform me then, what "hell of a lot more" does an average leveled, 10 Str, 9 AS, 10 con axe user doing us? To give one perspective, chapter 13. One needs 12 AS just to double the steel wielding cavaliers. 9 base and 40% growth is not fantastic, especially if you're stuck wielding heavy weapons like axes with only 10 Con. 8 levels on average (not even factoring in actual probability) ust to double with iron. Thats a ridiculous amount of levels this guy needs to get in the span of basically 5 chapters, especially since one of them is particularly sparce (chapter 12). Even if we just gave him a straight 5 levels, he'd be doing a grand total of 12 damage to otherwise 38 HPd enemies unless he wielded a stronger Steel just to do 15 damage, which is still not even a 3RKO. He's also doing this with a fantastic base 88 hit with iron, which even factoring WTA only adds up to 73 displayed on the slowest, 66 on the fastest. I'm not sure how 15 damage doesn't 3RKO 38HP. Or why he's using Steel instead of Killer. You have a point of which I would agree with. Lower tiers can just end up being guys who aren't awful but are outclassed. However, I would argue that Geese is not someone who's merely outclassed, but is rightfully awful. Or at least his start is so bad that his finish isn't going to make up for it. Who would you suggest he goes below? Zeiss? 16/1 Geese 43HP 16STR 15SKL 12SPD 11LUK 12DEF 1RES base Zeiss 37HP 19STR 13SKL 11SPD 9RES 15DEF 3RES I can see that. Zeiss has inferior offense (since Geese has like 60 crit with a Killer, which Zeiss can't even hold), but flying utility and more growth potential (since he levels faster and can look forward to promotion bonuses). But I don't think he should go below Lilina. Edited June 23, 2011 by Anouleth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 -Top Tier- Lance Alan Dieck Rutger Miredy Percival Marcus Lalum Elphin -High Tier- Clarine Gonzales Echidna Chad Astohl Thany -Upper Mid- Shin Saul Ellen Fir Lot Klein Zealot Tate Cecilia Niime -Mid- Roy Lugh Bartre Garret Noah Ray Igrene Fa Yodel Cath -Lower Mid- Ward Oujay Geese Treck Zeiss Lilina -Low Tier- Juno Hugh Sue Douglas Barth Walt Merlinus Karel Dorothy -Takes Strategy To Use and Is The Player's Fault That They Suck Tier- Bors Sophia -Wendy Tier- Wendy Sacae -Top Tier- Lance Alan Dieck Rutger Miredy Percival Marcus Lalum Elphin -High Tier- Clarine Shin Gonzales Chad Astohl Thany -Upper Mid- Echinda Saul Ellen Fir Lot Klein Zealot Tate Cecilia Niime -Mid- Roy Lugh Bartre Igrene Garret Noah Ray Fa Yodel Cath -Lower Mid- Ward Oujay Geese Treck Sue Lilina -Low Tier- Dayan Hugh Zeiss Douglas Barth Walt Merlinus Karel Dorothy -Takes Strategy To Use and Is The Player's Fault That They Suck Tier- Sophia Bors -Wendy Tier- Wendy This is what I figured for now. I won't get too far with some of the other discussions yet, but I'm reading them along the way. I think a few other things that needs to be discussed is Gonzales and Echinda's placements, Lot, Fir, and Klein (since I'm leaning on Klein > both, but I think Fir and Lot are looking more like Mid Tier to a point), and maybe Zealot up a bit more. We'll see. Also remember when Inui attempted to give Wendy an Axereaver? Lol. Okay, just keep posting and I'll try to channel my thoughts somehow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 @Above Bors certainly isn't a good unit, but I don't think he belongs in the same tier/below Sophia. He does a few useful things in the early chapters due to existing (visiting houses and whatnot) that should cement his place in Low tier above people like Dorothy at least. Douglas and Barth being in Low looks fine though. One question about Ilia!Sue, is she in Low because of the Exp requirement to go to Ilia? If so, then I'm a little curious about Tate's position on the Sacae list. If not, then I think she can move up to Lower Mid. Compared to say, Lilina, she has more Mov, more durability, and a little more availability to get her up to par, as well as more speed so she can start doubling fairly quickly as compared to Lilina's...almost never. Sue is also fairly accurate and is probably the best wyvern sniping option for C7 as well as a possible Rescuer for a foot unit in C8. Sue also has the benefit of having little to no competition for a promotion item (Walt? Dorothy?) which is better than what the rest of Lower Mid can claim really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Well, Tate doesn't need much experience to ferry people around, but she could probably move below Cecilia and Niime on the Sacae list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) One question about Ilia!Sue, is she in Low because of the Exp requirement to go to Ilia? If so, then I'm a little curious about Tate's position on the Sacae list. I'm not going to say anything about Sue in Ilia, but using Tate when going to Sacae is a pretty trivial task. Sue and Shin both gain EXP much more quickly than either Thany or Tate, and a player should be able to, without trying, go to Sacae when using at least one of the nomads and both pegasus knights. It's a lot more difficult the other way around - Thany needs to be fed easy kills (depending on how fast the player goes, she may not even exceed level 6) and Tate misses out on a lot of unpromoted EXP gain if the player wants to have her at falcoknight ASAP. I think in general, though, Sue is a little underrated. It will probably take a playthrough with growths in order to establish just how good she can be, but she possesses the traits necessary to make a difference. I did use her in chapter 8 of my second attempt at 0% growths, and I can imagine that she would probably be one of the more useful unpromoted mounted units in that map because I found myself often having to KO enemy archers and soldiers with Javelins at 50ish hit whereas Sue can do significantly better using Iron Bow or even Steel Bow. In response to Radiant Dragon, there is no way that I think Tate should move below Cecilia. Tate does well in chapters 12x-14 at the least (this is if the player promotes her at the end of chapter 12) through nothing less than rescuing with 8 move and flying. Edited June 23, 2011 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 I actually remember doing plenty of math on Sue, and discovered that at least if she got to a certain level by said chapter, that she'd actually be pretty good. However, it didn't go anywhere because A. I had less credibility then than I do now, and B. No one really cared at the time, since it was when FE6 was kinda dead. However, I shall double check. First off, let's see her start just in general. Let's start with the good. -8 AS is usable She's not gonna be doubling the big threats in chapter 7, like the wyverns (though she's still good for them anyways) and the cavs, but there are still steel archers and soldiers running amok around here. 5 Str could definitely be better, but look on the bright side: She's still got hte speed to double loldiers with steel. With Iron, she does 9x2 damage (leaving them in 15 or 14 HP, might be enough for like Allan with iron if I'm SEVERELY underestimating our squad), and with steel that would be 12x2 (leaving them at about 9 or 8 HP, enough for anyone to finish off). Similar stuff to archers, though using steel's not possible with them. This carries on to chapter 8. Not fantastic, but usable. Beats the other two failure archers at least. -Bows Bows aren't great, but they have a purpose. She can do more accurate damage to mercs, of whom are impossible to kill super quickly thanks to their speed. So, whatever whittles them down more, the happier I'll be. Also, wyverns. Wyverns are annoying as hell, especially for as early as chapter 7 with how brutally powerful they are. With iron, she can do up to 11 damage which is about 1/3 of their HP, and with steel she can do up to 20 damage, leaving them around 13 HP. Again, the quicker we go through these damn things, the better. -Mobility Chapter 7 and 8 are humongous maps. For chapter 7 of which splitting into 2 groups can be an optional strategy, it lets her dart between two groups to assist with her chipping, most notably of which when the wyverns start coming down. She's also able to help reach the wyvern going after Zealot quite quick. The easier we can recruit Zealot, the better. -Low Level A blessing and a curse, in a way it benefits her due to decent starting bases for a lvl 1 unit, and the fact she's an archer, of whom do not have the easiest time leveling up. To see the leveling math here, the average enemy level is about 7 or 8, ranging from down to 6 all the way to lvl 11. To just consider the average of 8 on normal enemies (as in not counting soldiers), it's about 12 exp on chip, 53 on kill. On soldiers (I will consider the chapter 8 ones as well), that would be lvl 11 on just about a static level, getting us about 13-14 exp on chip, and 53 on kill. So even though she's only chipping, she's still gaining a rather substantial amount of exp, especially on soldiers. About 9 shots on normal enemies is a level, and 8 on soldiers. Then consider a kill grants her an auto half-level. -Mount Hey, if your other guys are busy killing things, she can still be of use in being Roy's taxi while the real fighters do killing. Big deal for chapter 8. Then the bads. -Archer As we know, being an archer sucks because it limits us to player phase outside the rare occurance that she gets to charge...Other archers. This also means she is negative on enemy phase, because enemies attackng her will not get countered, thus is wasteful cause we could do with more counters. There's a lot we have to destroy in chapter 7. -Weak Str She's literally doing small single digit damage to toughies like cavs, even with a steel bow. That sucks, considering that they tend to be the majority of units here, or at least are the biggest pains in the ass next to the wyverns. Though there's only 2 weaknesses, they're pretty big weaknesses. When we factor these in, we have to ask ourselves: What does it take to be good past these points in the western isles? Well, to double the slowest punks who have 5-6 AS, it does not seem like TOO hard a feat for Sue to gain a couple levels for that 9 AS. However, the problem is stil due to her somewhat meager Str, in that she's only doing about 7x2 damage, which reduces them to about 20 HP for fighters, 18 HP for Pirates. That's a rather sizeable gap she leaves them in, though I suppose if some characters weren't ORKOing before, she allows them to kill now. I dunno, I think it would depend on how many levels she can fit in between chapter 7 and chapter 9. If she could manage let's say 5, she'd at least have the speed to add hand axers and steel archers to the list, along with +1 Str so she could do at least a bit more damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 GJ, as usual, you dance with your usual fervour around the comparison we actually need to make. Who is Sue immediately below? Treck and Oujay, who happily enough join only 1 or 2 chapters after her. Compare her to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 GJ, as usual, you dance with your usual fervour around the comparison we actually need to make. Who is Sue immediately below? Treck and Oujay, who happily enough join only 1 or 2 chapters after her. Compare her to them. Well, dondon asked a question of which I simply partially answered. I'm not actually trying to make an argument to raise her position, bur rather simply outlining what she does at her start since he seems to have an interest in how she would fair in a run. Now, if in my post I said "And that's why I think she should raise a tier", THEN your comment would hold water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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