FE6 HM Tier List

[Colonel M]

Okay since I'm not even going to acknowledge Sophia vs Wendy arguments whatsoever... what important things did I miss?

[Life]

You missed the conversation on Ray which Cynthia decided to derail because... she's batshit crazy over Wendy vs. Sophia?

[-Cynthia-]

You missed the conversation on Ray which Cynthia decided to derail because... she's batshit crazy over Wendy vs. Sophia?

The Ray conversation was just about whether he can get an Angelic Robe or not, not about his actual position.

Uh there's the Zeiss deal. And no one's really said much about Sue vs. OJ.

[dondon151]

Zeiss kind of needs to go up a tier. If you compare him to Yodel, Zeiss has flight and Yodel has staves, but Zeiss is around for longer and his ability is relatively as or more valuable than Yodel's.

[Lord Raven]

The Ray conversation was just about whether he can get an Angelic Robe or not, not about his actual position.

Uh there's the Zeiss deal. And no one's really said much about Sue vs. OJ.

Nor did I hear any counterarguments to my long posts about Karel > Wolt, also implied a bit of Dorothy > Bors and I could argue up to Douglas if someone cared enough, but I know for a fact that Karel has the potential to be way more useful in the final 1.5 chapters than Wolt in the first 5.

[Anouleth]

Zeiss kind of needs to go up a tier. If you compare him to Yodel, Zeiss has flight and Yodel has staves, but Zeiss is around for longer and his ability is relatively as or more valuable than Yodel's.

He should probably be above Fa as well.

[dondon151]

Nor did I hear any counterarguments to my long posts about Karel > Wolt, also implied a bit of Dorothy > Bors and I could argue up to Douglas if someone cared enough, but I know for a fact that Karel has the potential to be way more useful in the final 1.5 chapters than Wolt in the first 5.

I actually disagree with this. I can name Wolt as being useful at helping out low turn completions for chapters 1-4:

Chapter 1 - Roy, Lance, Alan, and Wolt all have decent accuracy and enough atk to KO enemy fighters and brigands that Marcus weakens. In my 5 turn strategy in particular, I needed Wolt to finish a KO because Marcus had weakened 3 enemies on enemy phase. I didn't have other units to get the KO because Marcus and Lance were more occupied with moving ahead.

Chapter 2 - I needed Wolt to help break past the fort chokepoint on turn 2 after Marcus held it on turn 1. Marcus had weakened a soldier on enemy phase and Wolt KO'd from range, allowing Marcus to use his player phase moving forward.

Chapter 3 - There was one point where I needed Wolt to attack a soldier at range so that Alan could finish the KO, or something. I forgot, but I did find him useful as opposed to anyone else because I did need someone who could hit fairly accurately from 2 range.

Chapter 4 - Not nearly as useful here because his damage is atrocious, but he could make a difference.

[Lord Raven]

Then explain why Wolt < Barth and for that matter Douglas, as well as why Karel <<< Merlinus, Dorothy, Bors

[dondon151]

Because none of that has yet been adequately argued? (Not that I think any of those claims are accurate.)

Edited July 26, 2011 by dondon151

[-Cynthia-]

Karel's a hard character to tier, because while theoretically he should be a decent character due to having adequate bases and all, he joins late and is...unremarkable. Someone like Bors has worse performance over the whole game, because Bors is pretty bad at combat all in all, but Bors has forced deployment in the earlygame chapters where he does contribute positively. Sure in Chapter 1, all he really does is visit the village...but that's more than Karel or Dorothy is doing here. Arguably, the units below Bors don't do enough once they show up to counteract this.

[Lord Raven]

I've covered much of this.

Merlinus lures enemies away and comes back from death every chapter. Already beats Bors.

Bors has little movement and low hitrates early on (visits three villages but doesn't at all work as a combat unit; in C2 Marcus is better off as the Village visitor because it's easier than trading it out of Bors and C3... pretty much anyone can do that), and when he doesn't have low hitrates he gets ganged up and 2-3HKO'd easily. (posted a much more solid numbers argument earlier). Bors is generally fairly inconvenient to have around simply because of that low move and how it doesn't even really net him any kills to be a great offensive unit.

Dorothy does some chip in her forced deployment chapter and that's just about it. (already posted stats)

Karel's performance being "unremarkable" doesn't mean anything because that's always said in relative terms; his Str is 20 or 21 which is already on par or better than Rutger and Fir's, and his Spd is enough to double. His Skill is automatically maxed or near maxed for the purpose of criticals, and his base 44% critical rate actually helps his use with Wyrmslayer for Mamkutes or Wyvern Lords. (Posted stats earlier) Karel has some remarkability, the problem is that he's outclassed; not that it matters, the purpose of this tier list is to judge efficiency assuming the unit is fielded so he is a 6 move person with some pretty decent offense much like many other characters. He has far more potential to shave turncounts with much less resource allocation (exp mainly) than many characters that exist, and while that only lasts 1.5 chapters he is doing well. Especially since an Angelic Robe actually changes many of the hits from a 2HKO to a 3HKO quite easily. I once again repeat, outclassed not at all means pathetic, which sadly is the main point of my argument in favor of Karel considering that's one of the few justifications i've heard in favor of keeping Karel as "well, at least he's better than Wendy and Sophia.

Do Dorothy, Bors, or Merlinus have that sort of potential? Merlinus pretty much exists as either a nice decoy for some random enemies (it is likely he can shave some turns pre-C5, mainly in C4, but I need to see dondon's strategy for this in order to make a judgment. I saw Merlinus visiting a village in that particular chapter, at any rate; Bors COULD do it too, though.

Any fucking unit can visit a village. If we're going to disregard the Sophia > Wendy argument because "the only argument is the Guiding Ring" then why the hell is visiting villages a point in favor of Bors over Karel? Anyone can visit a village, but Bors is absolute dick at combat. Dorothy can at least chip and (wait for it) visit the massive amounts of villages in C7, Bors doesn't have the accuracy to do it and eventually his durability comes to question too.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[-Cynthia-]

Merlinus lures enemies away and comes back from death every chapter. Already beats Bors.

I don't have a problem with Merlinus>Bors.

Bors has little movement and low hitrates early on (visits three villages but doesn't at all work as a combat unit; in C2 Marcus is better off as the Village visitor because it's easier than trading it out of Bors and C3... pretty much anyone can do that), and when he doesn't have low hitrates he gets ganged up and 2-3HKO'd easily. (posted a much more solid numbers argument earlier). Bors is generally fairly inconvenient to have around simply because of that low move and how it doesn't even really net him any kills to be a great offensive unit.

I use Bors to chip a soldier or two so Lance/Alan don't have to take a counter (and Lance didn't 2HKO the soldier anyway). Not a whole lot, but it is something. In C3 I usually use him along with someone else to visit Lugh, he's kinda durable as long as he doesn't get doubled. In C4...well he baits Rutger and then dies which anyone can do I guess.

Dorothy does some chip in her forced deployment chapter and that's just about it. (already posted stats)

Yup yup.

Karel's performance being "unremarkable" doesn't mean anything because that's always said in relative terms; his Str is 20 or 21 which is already on par or better than Rutger and Fir's, and his Spd is enough to double. His Skill is automatically maxed or near maxed for the purpose of criticals, and his base 44% critical rate actually helps his use with Wyrmslayer for Mamkutes or Wyvern Lords. (Posted stats earlier) Karel has some remarkability, the problem is that he's outclassed; not that it matters, the purpose of this tier list is to judge efficiency assuming the unit is fielded so he is a 6 move person with some pretty decent offense much like many other characters. He has far more potential to shave turncounts with much less resource allocation (exp mainly) than many characters that exist, and while that only lasts 1.5 chapters he is doing well. Especially since an Angelic Robe actually changes many of the hits from a 2HKO to a 3HKO quite easily. I once again repeat, outclassed not at all means pathetic, which sadly is the main point of my argument in favor of Karel considering that's one of the few justifications i've heard in favor of keeping Karel as "well, at least he's better than Wendy and Sophia.

It's really not Karel's offense or defense that's the problem, it's his Mov. If we want to bring Karel to Final, we'd have to bring him over a unit that already has 8 Mov, or has 8 Mov due to getting boots after Chapter 21 (saving the Boots for Karel is kind of silly because then we don't get any use out of them for C21x or C22). The linear map structure really hurts low Mov units' ability to contribute.

Mov is less critical for C23 but I'm not sure how much he's actually doing there. It could be that having an extra 6 Mov combatant there is more helpful than having a village visitor/chipper for some of the early chapters, just saying that's it's not so clear cut as "Karel has better combat." He just has almost no time at all to leverage this lead.

Do Dorothy, Bors, or Merlinus have that sort of potential? Merlinus pretty much exists as either a nice decoy for some random enemies (it is likely he can shave some turns pre-C5, mainly in C4, but I need to see dondon's strategy for this in order to make a judgment. I saw Merlinus visiting a village in that particular chapter, at any rate; Bors COULD do it too, though.

Karel does have better combat than the other units you listed. However, does he actually save turns/make low turncounts more reliable if used as opposed to not used? That's what I question.

Any fucking unit can visit a village. If we're going to disregard the Sophia > Wendy argument because "the only argument is the Guiding Ring" then why the hell is visiting villages a point in favor of Bors over Karel? Anyone can visit a village, but Bors is absolute dick at combat. Dorothy can at least chip and (wait for it) visit the massive amounts of villages in C7, Bors doesn't have the accuracy to do it and eventually his durability comes to question too.

Well for Chapter 1, it's mostly just because Bors is there, and we'd have to drag one of our other units away from combat to visit the village otherwise. In something like Chapter 2 or 3, it's because he's kinda durable and using him to visit villages frees up our other units for combat purposes. Bors is bad I agree, but he's not *completely* worthless.

[grandjackal]

I don't have a problem with Merlinus>Bors.

I have a problem with it, namely how terrible an excuse that is to tier Merlinus over anyone. Characters that should be drawing enemy attention are units with actual combat. I'd take Bors's errand running and being a lone runner to recruit Lou over Merlinus doing things he shouldn't be doing.

[Lord Raven]

Mov is less critical for C23 but I'm not sure how much he's actually doing there. It could be that having an extra 6 Mov combatant there is more helpful than having a village visitor/chipper for some of the early chapters, just saying that's it's not so clear cut as "Karel has better combat." He just has almost no time at all to leverage this lead.

One Angelic Robe + a Wyrmslayer or two = 3HKO'd by Wyverns/Mamkutes, he can take Boltings and he has a pretty good chance of OHKOing the Dragon enemies. There's easy ways to get an Angelic Robe to him.

As for C24 he can deal with any sort of residual Mamkutes that follow you provided he has an Elixir (one again, he gets 3HKO'd and he only should be getting hit two at a time).

I have a problem with it, namely how terrible an excuse that is to tier Merlinus over anyone. Characters that should be drawing enemy attention are units with actual combat. I'd take Bors's errand running and being a lone runner to recruit Lou over Merlinus doing things he shouldn't be doing.

Ward and Bors together are the best way to retrieve Lugh and to prevent them from being completely killed, Merlinus can draw attention away from them.

In C4, there's shitloads of Cavaliers that can easily gang up on and kill Bors; Merlinus can also get ganged up on and killed but to no detriment because Merlinus will come back to life next chapter anyway. He can do the same to lure Rutger out to talk to, and most importantly he can die and comeback the next chapter to act as a sort of trump card again which Bors cannot do. On top of the fact that you can take weapons from the supply thanks to him (provided he's fielded). Minor points in his favor, but this pretty much leads to "all Bors can do properly is visit like two villages and chip a soldier in C2."

Karel does have better combat than the other units you listed. However, does he actually save turns/make low turncounts more reliable if used as opposed to not used? That's what I question.

Sure as hell does better than Bors, who doesn't do anything to shave turncounts when used and when used throughout the game ABSOLUTELY does not shave turncounts. In fact, the opposite. Same is the case with Dorothy. Wolt shaves turncounts early on since dondon provided the strategy, and Merlinus has potential but only in one chapter.

[grandjackal]

Ward and Bors together are the best way to retrieve Lugh and to prevent them from being completely killed, Merlinus can draw attention away from them.

You seem to be implying that Bors can't just do this alone. Even in your little argument here, you are still implying that Bors is doing the important thing: Recruiting Lou while your main army is busy actually completing the map. Speaking of who, why's Ward accompanying him?

In C4, there's shitloads of Cavaliers that can easily gang up on and kill Bors; Merlinus can also get ganged up on and killed but to no detriment because Merlinus will come back to life next chapter anyway.

1. Boris does not actually die easily. Only the strongest cavs can 2RKO Bors at base, and sword cavs only do 1x2 to 3x2 damage. In comparison, Merlinus is ORKOd every time due to base 3 AS, 15 HP and 3 Def. Oh, right, 18 Atk cavs actually OHKO him too. Yeah, quite a good gang-up on Merlinus there. Let's say that we weren't braindead and had Bors recruit Lou alone. 2 Soldiers and an archer equates to about 3 chips and 3 kills, fully being about 16 exp on chip for soldiers with 39 on kill, 10 on chip and 33 on kill for the archer, and let's simply add the 15 from the chip on the soldier from chapter 2 that helped kill a soldier more reliably in order to move Marcus forward on his maximum. Fully this equates to 1.61 lvls. While it's a 90% chance, 1 HP is all he needs to not get 2RKOd by all but the highest attack cavs.

2. Why are either of them attracting attention when you've got better combat units?

3. How about we put this durability to use, and say that during a round of combat, someone missed an attack that was imperative to land and suddenly we got someone in danger. Boris can rescue said unit, and we are no longer in danger of losing said unit. Merlinus cannot rescue at all. Granted thisis only an emergency that the RNG doesn't like us, but it happens.

He can do the same to lure Rutger out to talk to, and most importantly he can die and comeback the next chapter to act as a sort of trump card again which Bors cannot do.

Wrong again, and again on 2 different levels. With his Killing Edge, Rutger has 15 Atk, which with WTD is a mere 3x2 damage. Even with double crits, Boris will survive at base.

But again, why are we needing a lure for Rutger anyways? Clarine has 7 move, it's not like Rutger can outmove her. If we're thinking we're overextending ourselves to put ourselves at risk of Rutger killing someone anyways, I would think Bors being able to rescue while being a scapegoat no one cares about anyways would be best, since it means if we DID overextend someone, we don't have to lose them, instead losing Bors since no one seems to care about him anwyays. Not that he'll die unless Rutger crits him. 6 damage from Rut, 1from the archer, and 8-9 from the fighter, he'll still live. Outside of Marcus, Bors would actually be the safest bet. But again, it's still silly to think we need a lure in the first place.

On top of the fact that you can take weapons from the supply thanks to him (provided he's fielded). Minor points in his favor, but this pretty much leads to "all Bors can do properly is visit like two villages and chip a soldier in C2."

Early on, this should never come into play because you're not ridiculously stocked on weapons that you need to whip them constantly out of Merlinus's wagon early on.

Sure as hell does better than Bors, who doesn't do anything to shave turncounts when used and when used throughout the game ABSOLUTELY does not shave turncounts. In fact, the opposite. Same is the case with Dorothy. Wolt shaves turncounts early on since dondon provided the strategy, and Merlinus has potential but only in one chapter.

Merlinus has potential how exactly? Also, early on, I'm fairly positive the only characters that actually DO shave turncounts early on are Marcus, Rutger with his bosskilling, Thany, and Deick's group for chapter 2 on virtue that they can murder a good swath to open the path for Marcus. Unless we're talking about soloing with Bors which even I, the master of armors, would not recommend), I think turncounts should not be that big a measure factor for earlygame performance unless you're one of the above mentioned.

[Toothache]

Your numbers are a bit off. Let me correct them.

Rutger at base has 16 Atk with his Killing Edge, so that's 4 damage to a base Bors (9 str, +7 weapon, -1 WTD, -11 Def = 4). Given a crit, which will happen 33% of the time, that's a much more dangerous prospect, since it takes him down to a mere 8 HP assuming Rutger connects once, and 4 if he connects twice, and he will die to the fighter if he connects - a very likely prospect given he has 75 hit on him. Even if all of Rutger, the archer and fighters attacks connect without a crit, unless Bors is at full health he's not going to survive, especially if you're planning to throw him in the way of cavs. 1 HP might be fine for him to take, but those add up, and Clarine and Ellen can't be everywhere.

Merlinus, on the other hand, can eat a crit safely for the team.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Toothache

[grandjackal]

Your numbers are a bit off. Let me correct them.

Rutger at base has 16 Atk with his Killing Edge, so that's 4 damage to a base Bors (9 str, +7 weapon, -1 WTD, -11 Def = 4). Given a crit, which will happen 33% of the time, that's a much more dangerous prospect, since it takes him down to a mere 8 HP assuming Rutger connects once, and 4 if he connects twice, and he will die to the fighter if he connects - a very likely prospect given he has 75 hit on him.

Merlinus, on the other hand, can eat a crit safely for the team.

Looking at stats, it's a 75% chance he has 9 Str, but point taken. However, again, 8 Str is still possible, and again we can overextend someone and Boris will guarantee a unit safe from the onslaught of Rutger and fighter (possibly archer if it gets an attack in before the fighter, so Bors can keep them fully safe even though it costs his life). Considering the fact that we would like to move in as deep as we can to complete things faster, this could be a nice boon.

Bors dying at this cost (at about the chance Rutger could land a crit) doesn't really matter either, since the upcoming chapter of 5, neither do anything in particular, then both are dropped.

Lastly, again, this is assuming we need a "lure" for Rutger anyways, which we most certainly do not unless we were purposefully trying to suicide someone in needlessly into a group of units that move on their own anyways just to make an argument look better than broken plywood.

[Lord Raven]

You seem to be implying that Bors can't just do this alone. Even in your little argument here, you are still implying that Bors is doing the important thing: Recruiting Lou while your main army is busy actually completing the map. Speaking of who, why's Ward accompanying him?

Ward or Lott; Bors wouldn't want to do it alone at all.

1. Boris does not actually die easily. Only the strongest cavs can 2RKO Bors at base, and sword cavs only do 1x2 to 3x2 damage. In comparison, Merlinus is ORKOd every time due to base 3 AS, 15 HP and 3 Def. Oh, right, 18 Atk cavs actually OHKO him too. Yeah, quite a good gang-up on Merlinus there. Let's say that we weren't braindead and had Bors recruit Lou alone. 2 Soldiers and an archer equates to about 3 chips and 3 kills, fully being about 16 exp on chip for soldiers with 39 on kill, 10 on chip and 33 on kill for the archer, and let's simply add the 15 from the chip on the soldier from chapter 2 that helped kill a soldier more reliably in order to move Marcus forward on his maximum. Fully this equates to 1.61 lvls. While it's a 90% chance, 1 HP is all he needs to not get 2RKOd by all but the highest attack cavs.

Highest attack cavaliers easily gang up on him, though. There's a lot of them and they have a bunch of move, after all; not like you'd want to put Bors up front anyway considering Marcus/Alan/Lance would want to take the lead.

2. Why are either of them attracting attention when you've got better combat units?

So you can get them out of the way and you can progress more tiles in less turns?

3. How about we put this durability to use, and say that during a round of combat, someone missed an attack that was imperative to land and suddenly we got someone in danger. Boris can rescue said unit, and we are no longer in danger of losing said unit. Merlinus cannot rescue at all. Granted thisis only an emergency that the RNG doesn't like us, but it happens.

And then Bors acts like another sitting duck again, and he's *still* an easy target. How would Bors even be with your units for when that happens? Once again, his move is only 4 and you have 7/8 move Cavs and Paladins rushing the early chapters, and even the five move chars can get ahead of him pretty easily.

But again, why are we needing a lure for Rutger anyways? Clarine has 7 move, it's not like Rutger can outmove her. If we're thinking we're overextending ourselves to put ourselves at risk of Rutger killing someone anyways, I would think Bors being able to rescue while being a scapegoat no one cares about anyways would be best, since it means if we DID overextend someone, we don't have to lose them, instead losing Bors since no one seems to care about him anwyays. Not that he'll die unless Rutger crits him. 6 damage from Rut, 1from the archer, and 8-9 from the fighter, he'll still live. Outside of Marcus, Bors would actually be the safest bet. But again, it's still silly to think we need a lure in the first place.

Rutger shows up on enemy phase and you *honestly* don't want him going up against any of your units except *maybe* Marcus who still has a bunch of attacks to survive anyway.

Early on, this should never come into play because you're not ridiculously stocked on weapons that you need to whip them constantly out of Merlinus's wagon early on.

Buying stuff from C4 shop/armory and sending them all to Merlinus?

Merlinus has potential how exactly? Also, early on, I'm fairly positive the only characters that actually DO shave turncounts early on are Marcus, Rutger with his bosskilling, Thany, and Deick's group for chapter 2 on virtue that they can murder a good swath to open the path for Marcus. Unless we're talking about soloing with Bors which even I, the master of armors, would not recommend), I think turncounts should not be that big a measure factor for earlygame performance unless you're one of the above mentioned.

I already mentioned that he can lure Rutger without getting "killed" (he'll get killed but he'll come back) on top of luring enemies away from the main path, if applicable, but that's a small thing that Merlinus has over Bors.

~Waiting To Hear On Karel~

(With my Karel points I meant ORKO not OHKO, but he still has a good chance to OHKO).

Edited July 26, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[grandjackal]

Ward or Lott; Bors wouldn't want to do it alone at all.

Except he totally can. Just toss Boris a vuln, he's good to go. Ward and Lott can help take care of stuff at the front gate so Marcus and co can go off and destroy the inner workings of the fort.

Highest attack cavaliers easily gang up on him, though. There's a lot of them and they have a bunch of move, after all; not like you'd want to put Bors up front anyway considering Marcus/Alan/Lance would want to take the lead.

Yes, the grand total of 1 of them can easily gang up on him, and 17 Atk lower level cavs are a rare breed as the average seems to be 16 Atk, of which Boris can believably survive. Another factor is that in this map, cavaliers attack in waves. First wave being 2 cavs and a nomad, then 3 cavs and a nomad, then 2 sword cavs. Theoretically, it shouldn't be possible to get a unit ganged up on in the first place, unless again, we're stupidly suiciding units into units that move regardless.

Let's also remember that due to having actual survivability, Bors can swig a vuln, and be able to repeat this action if we're truly managing to do this. Merlinus dies first attack, and that's it.

So you can get them out of the way and you can progress more tiles in less turns?

And then Bors acts like another sitting duck again, and he's *still* an easy target. How would Bors even be with your units for when that happens? Once again, his move is only 4 and you have 7/8 move Cavs and Paladins rushing the early chapters, and even the five move chars can get ahead of him pretty easily.

well, to rescue you don't necessarily have to be at the front lines, you just have to be able to touch the units on the frontlines. Again though, this is in case of an emergency of a miss, and a unit's in danger of dying. Would you rather that important unit die, or Bors? Cause Bors gives us that luxury, while Merlinus does not. So what if he's a "sitting duck"? We missed because the RNG and it botched are strat, we were kinda screwed in the first place.

Rutger shows up on enemy phase and you *honestly* don't want him going up against any of your units except *maybe* Marcus who still has a bunch of attacks to survive anyway.

No shit, now if we're saying Marcus is absorbing the brunt anyways, why is Merlinus even an issue? Why does he need to suicide himself into a group of enemies that move on their own when we just...Don't have to? It actually stuns me that this was a point to an argument in the first place. It's like saying you have a hobby in unbending paperclips. It's nice you enjoy doing it, but it will not serve any real use.

Buying stuff from C4 shop/armory and sending them all to Merlinus?

Why is this necessary? In fact, if we're suiciding him, then no, we can't actually do this. He can't accept items into storage if he has died during battle.

I already mentioned that he can lure Rutger without getting "killed" (he'll get killed but he'll come back) on top of luring enemies away from the main path, if applicable, but that's a small thing that Merlinus has over Bors.

1. We don't need a "lure" for Rutger.

2. How's he getting ahead of the same cavs that out move Bors when he's got 2 less move than them, and unlike Bors, can't be rescue-dropped in order to do this in the first place?

3. If we're so desperate for a "lure" that we're using undroppable Merlinus to personally get in the way to eat the bullet Rutger shoots at us, I question if you're playing the map efficiently at all.

4. If we're playing chapter 4 in a not braindead manner, we will never need to "move enemies off their path" cause they'll be too busy being dead. With Silver Lance Marcus, the Halberd, Ogma, the Cav duo and Rapier, killing each wave as they come. "Enemy position" should never be an issue in this map. At worst, a miss makes things hectic, and Bors has the advantage to rescue someone and at minimum distract 2 enemies (1 cav and 1 nomad) without dying. Merlinus gets 1 and dies.

The 4 reasons why this "Merlinus being a 1 time distraction in chapter 4 and thus >Bors" is smoke and mirrors. If you want a real argument in Merlinus's favor, how about nabbing the Armorslayer for Marcus in chapter 2? Then again, anyone staying behind can do that, long as they get it in time for Thany's arrival to transport it over.

Looking at the tier list though, I notice some things that I would like to bring up.

Clarine I feel could go down to Saul's level, or at least below Zealot. Zealot's too much of a baller in the midgame compared to Clarine being a barebones mounted healer. Nice as that is, I'd take Zealot's midgame over it.

I'd also say Thany could be above Clarine as well.

Could Saul rise due to being the only warper for chapter 16? Srsly.

Could I mention that with an Str proc or two, Bartre can OHKO pegs in Ilia, and that up until then he's probably been beating Lou's ass anyways? And that we've had a Silver Axe since chapter 8? Or if I got the shop guides right, we can by one or two in chapter 17.

Noah>Garret?

Sacae route. Why is Sue below GEESE!? Much less in the same tier as him?

Edited July 26, 2011 by Grandkitty

[-Cynthia-]

1. We don't need a "lure" for Rutger.

It's true that we don't need one, I suppose we could just keep all our units out of Rutger's area instead of letting him kill someone, but this probably costs us a turn (because everyone has to be too far away to attack the boss the next turn)

4. If we're playing chapter 4 in a not braindead manner, we will never need to "move enemies off their path" cause they'll be too busy being dead. With Silver Lance Marcus, the Halberd, Ogma, the Cav duo and Rapier, killing each wave as they come. "Enemy position" should never be an issue in this map. At worst, a miss makes things hectic, and Bors has the advantage to rescue someone and at minimum distract 2 enemies (1 cav and 1 nomad) without dying. Merlinus gets 1 and dies.

Ogma's not in this game. But you do bring up a good point about Bors rescuing, he doesn't really care about getting doubled because that was happening anyway, so he can save someone like Ellen if necessary.

Clarine I feel could go down to Saul's level, or at least below Zealot. Zealot's too much of a baller in the midgame compared to Clarine being a barebones mounted healer. Nice as that is, I'd take Zealot's midgame over it.

I'd take Clarine's mounted healing instead actually. But I agree on Saul moving up, since he can Warp for 14x and 16x which is pretty useful. He's worse than Clarine on any map that doesn't require Warping ( save C14), though not totally useless.

Could I mention that with an Str proc or two, Bartre can OHKO pegs in Ilia, and that up until then he's probably been beating Lou's ass anyways? And that we've had a Silver Axe since chapter 8? Or if I got the shop guides right, we can by one or two in chapter 17.

I'm not sure Bartre being able to kill pegs is some sort of noteworthy accomplishment, Lugh can kill pegs too.

Noah>Garret?

Noah has more Mov, Hit and WTC, but his offense is pretty disappointing. Like a 15/1 Noah has 12.4 Str and 13.4 AS, which loses to even someone like a base Igrene by a fair margin (~4 Atk and 2 AS)

Eh I guess I could see Noah>Garret if we're willing to toss him a Speedwing in Ilia. 13-14 AS doesn't get him many doubles past C17, but he can at least double pegs and wyverns and such with a wing.

In Sacae Garret is pretty terrible because he has to use Hand Axes to try and hit nomads, though Noah's Javelin offense isn't very good either.

Sacae route. Why is Sue below GEESE!? Much less in the same tier as him?

Sue>Oujay covers this. Well not the tier gap thing, but Mid tier might be a bit much for Sue.

Edited July 26, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

Ogma's not in this game

Derp, got Ogma and Deick mixed up. Though really, can you blame me? They're like the same exact guy.

I'm not sure Bartre being able to kill pegs is some sort of noteworthy accomplishment, Lugh can kill pegs too.

Kinda my point, when does Lou actually get a lead on Bartre? Also, while Lou might be able to kill pegs, what's to say about durability? Other than Bartre has a lot more of it?

[dondon151]

It's true that we don't need one, I suppose we could just keep all our units out of Rutger's area instead of letting him kill someone, but this probably costs us a turn (because everyone has to be too far away to attack the boss the next turn)

This tidbit is not true if you group your units on the other side of Rutger, directly underneath the boss. I 7 turned chapter 4 using this movement strategy.

Merlinus is crap. Diverting enemies with no counter has so little benefit that it's not worth doing so in early maps, much less deploying him in later maps. The only useful task that he does is grabbing the chapter 2 Armorslayer while Thany relays it to Marcus.

Bors is also rather completely useless despite what Grandjackal says, but he still has use in chapter 3 getting to Lugh.

Edited July 27, 2011 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

Bors is also rather completely useless despite what Grandjackal says, but he still has use in chapter 3 getting to Lugh.

To be honest, I was only pointing out minor tidbits that don't really mean anything because...Well, it's an argument against Merlinus. Any little bit counts when you're being argued against a dude who literally can't do anything.

But the armors are still godlike. You might save turns, but I'm not resetting nearly as much. Get some, foo'

[Lord Raven]

Therefore we conclude that Merlinus, who I concede cannot do shit, is above characters who can do shit. So Merlinus <<< Karel and everyone in the CURRENT state?

As for Karel > Bors, Dorothy... nobody said anything.

[grandjackal]

Actually, I just remembered something.

Noah has more Mov, Hit and WTC, but his offense is pretty disappointing. Like a 15/1 Noah has 12.4 Str and 13.4 AS, which loses to even someone like a base Igrene by a fair margin (~4 Atk and 2 AS)

Eh I guess I could see Noah>Garret if we're willing to toss him a Speedwing in Ilia. 13-14 AS doesn't get him many doubles past C17, but he can at least double pegs and wyverns and such with a wing.

In Sacae Garret is pretty terrible because he has to use Hand Axes to try and hit nomads, though Noah's Javelin offense isn't very good either.

You know, I believe it was forgotten to be mentioned, but anyone recall that Noah at his start isn't that bad?

Base Noah: 27 HP, 8 Str, 7 Skl, 9 Spd, 6 Lck, 7 Def, 1 Res

Lvl 8 Allen: 27 HP, 10.15 Str, 6.8 Skl, 9.15 Spd, 5.8 Lck, 7.75 Def, 0.7 Res

Lvl 7 Lance: 24.8 HP, 7.4 Str, 8.7 Spd, 11 Spd, 4.1 Lck, 7.2 Def, 0.9 Res

I throw these numbers up to show how they are in comparison, namely because those might be somewhat inflated levels for Allen and Lance upon Noah's arrival. He wins speed on Allen due to con (namely can wield a Steel Sword without AS loss, and considering 9 AS is the speed that lets you double the slowest enemies on the isles, it more than just makes up for the 2 Str loss). Lance also doesn't win speed by a big margin due to con (IE, if both weld Steel Lances, Lance only has 1 speed on him, but loses Str), while Noah actually beats him everywhere else. So, he's at least on par with the cav duo.

Now, I also want to throw out the notion of an early promotion. Allenand Lance's strength revolves around their excellency later in the game, and we get 2 knight crests later easy peasy. Noah, however, sucks later on because he just becomes a beefier version of Zealot when he sucks. So, let's say he can get 3 levels before chapter 9.

10/1 Noah: 32.25 HP, 10.9 Str, 10.35 Skl, 11.9 Spd, 7.2 Lck, 9.9 Def, 4.3 Res, 12 Con, +Ranks (and unless I'm reading how promotion gains work, that would give him B Swords and C Lances).

Weapon ranks aren't as good, but this looks familiar.

Base Zealot: 35 HP, 10 Str, 12 Skl, 13 Spd, 5 Lck, 11 Def, 7 Res, 11 Con, C Swords A Lances D Axes

Once again, Zealot doesn't win speed (by 1) all the time, as Noah can equip Steel Lances and tie him. Noah's defenses aren't quite as good, but Noah actually has at least 1 Str better offense.

So while Noah can cost a crest, he can be Zealot good during the time that Zealot is the best unit on your team. Sure, he'll get dropped eventually all the same, but I think this performance speaks clearly in comparison to Garret just being kinda good in Ilia and being able to distract things while sitting on a mountain in Bern.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Grandkitty