FE6 HM Tier List

[dondon151]

Lance also doesn't win speed by a big margin due to con (IE, if both weld Steel Lances, Lance only has 1 speed on him, but loses Str), while Noah actually beats him everywhere else. So, he's at least on par with the cav duo.

You're never using Steel Lances, except maybe against soldiers, but AS loss doesn't matter there. They're terrible weapons not just because of the AS loss, but because of the base 55 hit.

One big advantage that Noah has is that he can use the Armorslayer and ORKO armors whereas I doubt Lance and Allen will have D swords.

Once again, Zealot doesn't win speed (by 1) all the time, as Noah can equip Steel Lances and tie him. Noah's defenses aren't quite as good, but Noah actually has at least 1 Str better offense.

Steel Lances in the Western Isles? Yeah, right. Before someone else calls you out on that, though, this is a more relevant statement when applied to Iron Blades. That gives Noah a 2 atk lead on Zealot if Zealot uses a Steel Sword.

This is probably the best route for Noah to follow. The only thing standing in the way is the cost of the first Knight Crest - I don't know how willing people are to accept giving that up, because we haven't recently re-evaluated Lance and Allen's performaces. You could argue as well that we can early promote either of them.

[-Cynthia-]

I usully have higher levels for Lance/Alan than that upon Noah's arrival personally (like 10-11, not 7-8). Though I'd go with Noah>Garret regardless, heck Noah>Lugh should work.

Edited July 27, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

Noah may or may not be deserving of upper mid tier.

[Anouleth]

Noah may or may not be deserving of upper mid tier.

Well, thank you for narrowing down the possibilities.

[Colonel M]

Ilia - Maybe

Sacae - No

Sue > OJ seems fine. Karel vs. aldkfj;alsdjfl;ksdjfalkksdjfal;sfkjalksdfja;lskjf; might still need others counters back and forth.

[dondon151]

Noah's role in either route is primarily being a sword using paladin with firepower in chapters 9-13, then he's pretty much relegated to auxiliary and secondary combat roles.

[Dark Sage]

Why is Fa>Yodel? And why is Cecilia>Niime?

[Dark Sage]

Double post but...eh.

Well I'm still wondering about the stuff I put in my last post, but I'm also curious if thieves need to drop. Chest Keys are buyable in Chapter 7 and a few are stealable in chapter 8 I believe. Door Keys only cost 50 gold as well, so you could just fill up the slots of a mounted unit with a weapon, chest keys, and 2 door keys to replicate what a thief can do.

[-Cynthia-]

Hmm I might agree, I'm not sure if the few stealables they get are necessarily a tier better than Niime's Warp shenanigans for example.

[Lord Raven]

And I still don't understand why I-can-ORKO-with-A-Wyrmslayer-like-80%-of-the-time-and-only-get-3HKO'd-back-like-everyone-else Karel (he needs an Angelic Robe, but that's not a big deal with infinite stat-ups and the fact that it vastly improves his defense) is doing below I'm-retardedly-lacking-in-move-and-I-can't-hit-at-all Bors, I-chip-a-Wyvern Dorothy, and I-bait-enemies-because-I-suck-hard-and-i-never-die Merlinus. Don't understand Lilina > Dayan either (can't Dayan like kill _really_ well in C21 with a Silver Bow? What is Lilina doing for us to compare?)

Sacae!Klein is in upper mid twice, for the record. I'd keep him below Gonzales, myself.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

I kind of agree with Raven concerning Karel. He may be booting out someone with more move, but he is by no means bad in his two chapters, while the others directly above him only have some forced-deployment utility to their names. I'm not sure their chip is worth more than Karel's good out of the box performance.

[Lord Raven]

Same with Wolt. Wolt's chip may save a turn or two early on but Karel saves many more turns compared to a *bunch* of units you can deploy in his spot instead during the final chapter.

EDIT: My numbers are off. He's definitely ORKOing with Durandal, but I think with a Wyrmslayer he has a 49% chance of killing a Mamkute. Still, not bad. I'm like 70% sure he ORKOs Wyverns while facing 3HKOs from them, but most characters actually do get 3HKO'd anyway (Karel with an Angelic Robe doesn't) so he's not any different from your usual characters.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

I'm not sure it's a good idea to assume he can get Durandal, since it's probably almost broken by now. Wyrmslayer should be okay though, depending on how many there are.

He can help clear a path in Chapter 23, and at worst can hang back and deal with the reinforcement Mamkutes (I'm not sure if it's necessary to deal with them though, since the last time I played this game I wasn't aware we could buy Boots).

Actually... The more I think about it the more I realize that his move is pretty unacceptable in Chapter 24. I'm not sure that means he deserves to be quite as low as he is, though.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Lord Raven]

You get a total of 3, 30 effective mt and 15 uses. Why would Durandal be almost broken by now anyway?

[Radiant Dragon]

You get a total of 3, 30 effective mt and 15 uses.

Then it depends on how often we have to use them before Chapter 24. I would think there should be enough uses left, though.

Why would Durandal be almost broken by now anyway?

Because we've been using it to kill bosses all game...? It can probably get a use of Hammerne, but there's also Warp and Rescue to think about as well.

[-Cynthia-]

I don't think using Hammerne on things other than Warp is very good for turncounts. Besides, we already probably have a viable Durandal user or two (Percival being the best candidate most likely, due to Mov).

Clearing out the reinforcements in C24 isn't actually helpful since the map is basically made up of rushing Roy to the next throne. The Mamkutes never actually catch up if you're playing efficiently.

Chipping in early chapters might actually be more useful than whatever Karel does in C23. I really can't see crediting Karel with anything in C24, so it's like Bors visiting the Chapter 1 village vs. Karel killing like an enemy or two on C23 all in all. Yeah his performance against enemies doesn't look terrible, but when does he actually get to use it? He's so unavailable that he sees less combat than the earlygame derps like Dorothy.

Lilina can OHKO Wyverns with Aircalibur to be fair, and she does it for longer than Dayan.

[Lord Raven]

Lilina has 29 Atk with an effective Aircalibur and base magic. Your first Wyvern after you recruit Lilina is also Chapter 12, they have either 35 HP/1 Res or 34 HP/2 Res, meaning Lilina needs to get +7 Atk somehow in order to OHKO Wyverns. Dayan has 53 Atk with Silver Bow at base, 20 AS; it kills the everloving fuck out of around a thirds or a half of the Wyvern Lords in Chapter 21 and he absolutely rapes the Wyvern Riders in the same chapter.

Chipping in early chapters might actually be more useful than whatever Karel does in C23. I really can't see crediting Karel with anything in C24, so it's like Bors visiting the Chapter 1 village vs. Karel killing like an enemy or two on C23 all in all. Yeah his performance against enemies doesn't look terrible, but when does he actually get to use it? He's so unavailable that he sees less combat than the earlygame derps like Dorothy.

I think Dorothy's chipping and pretty high maintenance isn't any bit preferable to Karel being a (minor) killing machine from the moment he is recruited. Edited September 8, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[-Cynthia-]

Even if Lilina misses the kill by a small margin, she still leaves it with low enough HP for anyone to kill without taking a counter. Wyverns aren't too easy to ORKO, so it's not a bad perk.

Dorothy's only high maintenence if we insist on dragging her along past C7 or so. This is up to Colonel M I guess, since it's more of a tier list standards thing than anything else (are we forced to field Dorothy every chapter are we forced to field Karel etc etc.)

[Radiant Dragon]

Well, we kinda have to field Karel every chapter he's in to compare him...

[Lord Raven]

Even if Lilina misses the kill by a small margin, she still leaves it with low enough HP for anyone to kill without taking a counter. Wyverns aren't too easy to ORKO, so it's not a bad perk.

I'd also like to note that said Wyverns appear on Turn 13. Shouldn't the chapter be finished by then?

If we're looking at another Wyvern Chapter, Chapter 13, she gets _killed_ by Wyverns until Level 15 or 16 when she has enough to not get OHKO'd by their worst. She does not have the supports with Roy (+.5 Atk and +.5 Def on a C support) nor the avoid to survive them consistently. She'll actually need to be Level 17 to *somewhat* comfortably survive all Wyverns and Level 20 for a guaranteed survival of just one attack. That's not even counting the cavs and everything that double and kill her very easily unless she hits Level 9 and has at least 7 AS... still a big if because she's experiencing extremely little combat due to poor move and general offense for a long time. A Level 11 Lilina is also OHKO'd by Cavaliers in Chapter 13.

Base Lilina also gets the Wyvern Lords of Chapter 15 down to... around 20-25ish HP so they still have a fair bit to go. There's no way Dayan, who comfortably kills Wyverns in a Wyvern heavy chapter (and doubles/dents many units and has high move/evade), should be below Lilina who gets killed by everything and can barely kill anything in the process. She chips, but her shortcomings in both chipping and existing don't make up for chip, nor does it make sense to have her in a different tier than Dayan.

Dorothy's only high maintenence if we insist on dragging her along past C7 or so. This is up to Colonel M I guess, since it's more of a tier list standards thing than anything else (are we forced to field Dorothy every chapter are we forced to field Karel etc etc.)

She's pretty high maintenance in Chapter 7 too, considering the best she does is chipping a Soldier or Mercenary in Chapter 6 and probably chipping a Wyvern in Chapter 7 (where you still need to heavily combine attacks to get a kill anyway).

[dondon151]

Because we've been using it to kill bosses all game...? It can probably get a use of Hammerne, but there's also Warp and Rescue to think about as well.

You don't have to use Durandal to kill most bosses, and there exist plenty of alternate strategies for bosskilling in most maps. General bosses are weak to Armorslayer; paladin bosses are weak to Horseslayer; wyvern lord bosses are weak to Wyrmslayer, Aircalibur, and bows; magic using bosses generally have lower physical durability and can be reasonably dispatched with killer weapons. I only had to use Durandal against Zephiel (4HKO) and Brunya (2HKO) for 0% growths. Aine I KO'd with Wyrmslayer to save a Durandal use.

You'd want some of Durandal for chapter 24 because it's pretty much the only divine weapon that can reliably ORKO Jahn.

Clearing out the reinforcements in C24 isn't actually helpful since the map is basically made up of rushing Roy to the next throne. The Mamkutes never actually catch up if you're playing efficiently.

I disagree with this; you're bound to catch a couple of reinforcements if half of your team have 13+ move and the other half has 6 move.

[-Cynthia-]

Dayan's better durability isn't all that helpful, since he still has a pretty poor enemy phase (either he's using a bow, or very meh sword offense). Lilina getting ORKOd by things also isn't the end of the world- Lugh gets ORKOd by a fair number of enemies too but he somehow made it to Mid tier.

Basically it's "being sort of subpar for a lot of the game, but not totally useless" vs. "medicore for a few chapters at the end of the game". It seems hard to place Dayan over someone like Lilina but not necessarily over Oujay, who never "sucks" but also is never really good. I made a push for Dayan in Lower Mid before (though that's when Douglas was Lower Mid for some reason) so I don't oppose it too much really.

What's your definition of 'high maintenence' here? Considering she can do this at base this requires very little maintenence at all.

If your 6 Mov units continue moving towards the throne, the Mamkutes still won't catch them. The only way fighting the reinforcements is relevant is if you have units hanging way behind for some reason (and I can't really see a reason to do so).

Edited September 8, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Radiant Dragon]

You'd want some of Durandal for chapter 24 because it's pretty much the only divine weapon that can reliably ORKO Jahn.

Really? I assume that's because of the +5 strength?

If your 6 Mov units continue moving towards the throne, the Mamkutes still won't catch them. The only way fighting the reinforcements is relevant is if you have units hanging way behind for some reason (and I can't really see a reason to do so).

Considering the pathways are 1 tile wide, things get clogged very easily.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Lord Raven]

Dayan's better durability isn't all that helpful, since he still has a pretty poor enemy phase (either he's using a bow, or very meh sword offense). Lilina getting ORKOd by things also isn't the end of the world- Lugh gets ORKOd by a fair number of enemies too but he somehow made it to Mid tier.

Lilina's enemy phase is ridiculously poor compared to Dayan. Also, Lilina gets OHKO'd by many things and ORKO'd by many other things -- Lugh doesn't for a while, considering he's your best ranged chipper from the moment he joins and Lilina is... not. Lugh has salvageable speed at the very least and better evasion than Lilina. At least Dayan can survive enemy phase and kill on player phase -- Lilina can't even do that for the entire game.

Basically it's "being sort of subpar for a lot of the game, but not totally useless" vs. "medicore for a few chapters at the end of the game". It seems hard to place Dayan over someone like Lilina but not necessarily over Oujay, who never "sucks" but also is never really good. I made a push for Dayan in Lower Mid before (though that's when Douglas was Lower Mid for some reason) so I don't oppose it too much really.

Oujay does sort of blow when he starts, and he doesn't do anything particularly useful whereas Dayan does some pretty useful things against pretty powerful enemies in Chapter 21. I don't think ORKOing the toughest enemies in the map easily is mediocre, either. Lilina's pretty subpar and terrible throughout the game, and while she may not be totally useless her contributions aren't anywhere near "killing Wyverns with a Silver Bow easily." Cause she can't kill or survive until whatever numbers I posted, and she needs to be at that level by Chapter 13... so its impossible. Oddly enough, once she stops getting OHKO'd, she starts OHKOing Wyverns, but that probably won't happen.

What's your definition of 'high maintenence' here? Considering she can do this at base this requires very little maintenence at all.

It's a poor definition, I apologize, but Dorothy can barely do anything in Chapter 6 and her use dwindles dramatically in Chapter 7 -- that's pretty much how I define it. Karel's at least doing pretty well in his base chapter, helping more than Dorothy in her base chapter... And Bors, well, ever. In fact, I'd rate Dorothy higher than Bors because she doesn't have his accuracy issues when she attacks, and her chip is way more worthwhile. Bors can't even double soldiers at base.

If your 6 Mov units continue moving towards the throne, the Mamkutes still won't catch them. The only way fighting the reinforcements is relevant is if you have units hanging way behind for some reason (and I can't really see a reason to do so).

Erm the corridors are pretty narrow, so it gets difficult for all 6 move units to fit through... Edited September 8, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[dondon151]

Dayan's better durability isn't all that helpful, since he still has a pretty poor enemy phase (either he's using a bow, or very meh sword offense). Lilina getting ORKOd by things also isn't the end of the world- Lugh gets ORKOd by a fair number of enemies too but he somehow made it to Mid tier.

Additionally, if you don't need movement, Klein and Igrene do the job just as well, and if you do need movement, you have Shin. You can't really go wrong with a filler mounted bow unit, though; I think we generally underrate nomads and NTs because of their weapon range problems while ignoring the fact that they're extremely versatile.

If your 6 Mov units continue moving towards the throne, the Mamkutes still won't catch them. The only way fighting the reinforcements is relevant is if you have units hanging way behind for some reason (and I can't really see a reason to do so).

I can speak from experience that 6 move units will have to deal with a couple of reinforcement mamkutes if half of the team consists of 13+ move units and Roy has 15 move. On my new 0% growth run where I 9 turn chapter 24, I have Roy seize the third throne on turn 4, with the reinforcement mamkute appearing the turn after. No way are 6 move units going to make it even to that point in the map without significant assistance.

The reason why you'd want 6 move units to hang back is because from the first throne room, they can physic allies passing through the fourth throne room, which saves a use of the Saint Staff and helps combat units preserve a player phase by saving an Elixir use.

Really? I assume that's because of the +5 strength?

Yes - Jahn has 80 HP, 38 def, 27 res, and 15 AS, which requires 78 atk to ORKO with a physical weapon or 67 atk to ORKO with a magic weapon (and 19 AS on top of that).

A unit needs 22 str to ORKO with Durandal, 24 str to ORKO with Armads, and 30 str to ORKO with Malte or Miugre. No bow or lance using class can reach 30 str, so the last 2 weapons are out. Mounted units are extremely unlikely to reach S axes (Percival had trouble getting past B), and Durandal has +20 hit on Armads, which makes for attempting an ORKO at like 56 hit vs. 36 hit.

The mag threshold for a 2HKO is more reachable, but magic using units are generally bad. S light is essentially unobtainable, so we can rule out Aureola. Clarine will never reach S anima, Cecilia and Niime will never have the requisite AS, Lilina doesn't reach 19 spd until 20/16 on average, and Ray and Sophia are weighed down far too much by Apocalypse to ever double Jahn with it. Conversely, Lugh and Hugh will never reach the 25 mag needed to 2HKO Jahn.